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So I was looking over items to give my Chaos Lord and was looking at the Wizarding hat as something more funny to take than as serious choice.

I then thought what would take precedence his mark, in my case slaanesh, or the hat's random generation.

It says that a chaos sorcerer with the appropriate mark must take the lore associated with it. So, it would seem that he should take the lore of slaanesh. But, the hat makes him roll for his lore.

Just wondering if anyone else has come across this?

I think that the randomness of the hat would take precedence, but I would like to know what others think.

I would say the mark would over rule the hat, as the book says that army book rules can over rule rulebook rules.
Not 100% sure though.

Army book over rides the BRB.

Then again why would you not want to take the magic of the mark like come one tz magic means good times

I don't have the BRB to hand unfortunately, but the key may lie in the wording. Does he become a level one wizard, or have a spell generated and act 'as if' a level one wizard?

If the former, I'd say the Army List rules apply and he gets a chaos spell. If the latter, just a standard spell.

Ok so everyone thinks that the Army book would over ride the BRB in this case then it would seem.

For anyone who doesn't have it convenient, the wording in the BRB for the wizarding hat is:

"The wearer is treated as being a level 2 wizard who can use a randomly chosen spell lore. However, he also has the Stupidity rule."

@Cowpow - I take MoS on everything in my WoC army for fluff reasons. My army is based on the idea of the Cult of Slaanesh from the old storm of chaos book. So, I have dark elf warriors representing marauders and I have dark elf characters. Otherwise yes, MoT would probably be better.

Make sure those dark elves are on the right bases (marauders use warrior bases (dont know what size in mm)).

Mine is tz themed (if all tz is the most competitive that was not my intention I just enjoyed the fluff and the idea of how a tz army would look).

My friend runs almost all slaanesh (2 giants for lolz).
But ya personally not my cup of tea but hey if you want to be really mean slaanesh magic maybe mixed with either nurgle or shadow magic makes for a gross combo shadows reduce toughness and slaanesh magic macing them seizure whats not to like

Marauders (as with pretty much everything in the chaos army) on are on the 25mm bases, while dark elves are on 20mm bases

Thanks for the base size and yes its all on that or bigger

I would say you still use the radnom generation and heres why. You are generating a RANDOM spell lore, and the mark rule states that you have to CHOOSE the lore for your mark, but fir the hat you have no choice in your lore, thus you must get in randomly

Ok so that means that the hat in completely a waste of points since you could get utter garbage randomly.

Erm... The mark would never take precedence... Nothing in the book states that a Chaos LORD must choose spells from the lore associated with his mark. Those rules only apply to a Chaos Sorcerer, as nothing in the Chaos Lord or Chaos Mark section states that a model with a Mark of Chaos must choose the lore associated with it.

And it's not entirely a waste of points. Access to Lore of Life, Light and Beasts is always great.

Reference Section – Enchanted Items, Wizarding Hat Change “[...]randomly chosen spell[...]” to “[...]randomly chosen Battle Magic[…]”

I think the rules in the rule book would be take precedence over the rules in the army book in this case as it tells you exactly what you need to take.

cowpow16 wrote:Ok so that means that the hat in completely a waste of points since you could get utter garbage randomly.

All the lores are good really except metal and if you get metals final its not so bad

It's not exactly a super-serious item either, of course. It's just a bit of a laugh...

Magic hat is rad.
For 171 points, I get T4 W3 and 4 S6 attacks at WS5.
I also pick up a random additional lore.
My goblins always bring one.
That item should be called the goblin party hat.

Of the 8 lores, the only one I don't want is death, and that's just because of my leadership 8 is only average.

That item is seriously great for any army with limited lores.

-Matt

I have great fun with a Hatted up skaven warlord myself.

Warlord + Hat + Comet of Cassandora = best magic phases EVER!

Wouldnt the hat make the lord a sorcerer and under the section for using chaos shenanigans (using chaos magic).

"Sorcerers with the mark of chaos always generate spells from the lore appropriate to that mark"

So wouldnt the army book over ride the brb seeing as the high elf army book over rides the brb.

Just saying I could be wrong but hey it sounds like fun for gobos and skaven.

Wrong Sorcerer is a title, and his title is Chaos Lord

You missed the part in the Chaos book where it states that it uses the term "Sorcerer" to refer to any character with wizard levels.

But the hat makes them a lvl 2 wizard no?

"The wearer is treated as being a lvl 2 wizard"

So wouldnt that then technically mean he is a sorcerer (since chaos has no wizards) and thus make him have to choose from what ever lore?

HawaiiMatt wrote:That item is seriously great for any army with limited lores.

I didn't think the hat cared what was barred and what wasn't? It just gives you one at random (from everything) doesn't it?

Yes - which is why it is GREAT for an army which only has access to a small set of Lores - which is what Matt was saying. It gives you the ability to have a magic lore outside of what youre normally allowed.

Oh sorry, I understood what he was saying I just took it the opposite way. I thought it was meant that it was a positive that you'd get a spell from a lore you were happy with, as opposed to something crap from another lore

cowpow16 wrote:But the hat makes them a lvl 2 wizard no?

"The wearer is treated as being a lvl 2 wizard"

So wouldnt that then technically mean he is a sorcerer (since chaos has no wizards) and thus make him have to choose from what ever lore?

Yeah, he cannot choose from his normal lore selection which is none. Instead the item that makes him a wizard (and in chaos, that means a sorcerer) also dictates the lore; a random lore out of the basic rule book.
Book of Secrets wouldn't suddenly gives you spells of tzeench, just because you have a mark. The item fully dictates the spell generation.

-Matt

So when a chaos model gets levels of wizardry is it a sorcerer seems to be the debate now. Let me articulate the argument for in my own words:

Gifts of chaos in the chaos book that are sorcerer only are items that can be taken by a spell casting Daemon Prince, who is not a sorcerer. It would seem reasonable then that a Daemon Prince is a wizard level is treated as a sorcerer for purposes for selecting gifts. So, would it not seem unreasonable to conclude that a spell casting Lord would also be a sorcerer, under this definition.

This a fair deduction for Daemon Princes, so why should this not apply to a lord who can cast spells.

And yes I did base my dark elf warriors on 25mm bases when I got them. Some I had to mount on cavalry bases as I ran out of 25mm bases.

"The wearer is treated as being a level 2 wizard who can use a randomly chosen spell lore. However, he also has the Stupidity rule."

This is the rule for the Hat.

“Treat the bearer as a Level 1 Wizard, who may use the Lore of Fire, Lore of Shadow or Lore of Death. He may not attempt to channel. If he ever casts a spell with irresistible
force he must roll D6+1 rather than 2D6 on the Miscast table.”

This is the rule for the Book of Secrets.

The beginning of both rules state that you must "Tread the bearer as a ...". This means both items function the same way within the framework of the rules. We can then look at the precedent set by the FAQ in regards to the Book of Secrets, unless you argue that the word "being" is an important distinction. It could be, although I'd like to hear why it should be.

If you were to put the Book onto a Chaos Sorcerer they would lose their levels, and function entirely within the confines of the rules laid out for the book of secrets. Their mark would no longer affect their lore choice.

I'd argue that if you give the Hat to a Sorcerer, he would also function entirely within the framework of the rules laid out for the hat. He would also lose levels, and have to pick his lore at random. The precedent is set. I don't see how this would be different for a Lord. The Lord choosing the hat must abide by the rules laid out in the hat.

I would say the hat takes presidence.

A little OT but I like just trying to figure out how to represent it with differant armies that can take it, a friend of mine used it on a Bretonnian Lord and made the model look like Merlin.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:A little OT but I like just trying to figure out how to represent it with differant armies that can take it, a friend of mine used it on a Bretonnian Lord and made the model look like Merlin.

That sounds pretty epic, and I think we need to see a pic of it!

I'll see if I can get him to send me a pic of it as we don't live in the same area anymore. It was pretty much a High Elf Wizard on a horse with some empire wizard arms, a chaos marauder bearded head and a hat made from a night goblin hood with a GS brim. Oh and his staff had the owl archimedes on it that he got from the High Elf Dryads.

the wording of the hat is basically 3 parts.

1: you become a Lvl2 Wizard. so if a Lvl4 sorceror lord took the hat he would lose 2 levels.

2: you know 2 random spells from a random lore. this doesn't preclude you from knowing other lores, so if the Sorceror has a Mark he would generate spells from that lore too(counting as a lvl2)

3: you become stupid.


so a lvl3 Sorceror with the MoT with the hat would be the following,

he would become Lvl2, due to the Hats rules(which are more specific then the book. specific>general)

as he has MoT he would generate 2 spells from the lore of Tzeench. in addition, as per the Hats rules, he would generate 2 random spells from a random lore in the main rule book.


in the end, he would have 4 spells and be a lvl2. 2 spells would be from the Lore of Tzeench, 2 would be from a random lore.



I say this because this is how the Ogre Stronghold ruled it. the big question was on Ogre Slaughtermasters. since Butchers(SMs) know all Gutmagic spells and the Hat doesn't conflict with this we rules that the SM keeps all Gutmagic, has the 2 random spells, and then is reduced to a lvl2(as the hat says he becomes a Lvl2 wizard)