Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:I'll see if I can get him to send me a pic of it as we don't live in the same area anymore. It was pretty much a High Elf Wizard on a horse with some empire wizard arms, a chaos marauder bearded head and a hat made from a night goblin hood with a GS brim. Oh and his staff had the owl archimedes on it that he got from the High Elf Dryads.

That sounds rad.
For his Grail Req, he should ditch the dead knight, and replace it with a kid pulling a sword from a stone.

-Matt

Grey Templar wrote:the wording of the hat is basically 3 parts.

1: you become a Lvl2 Wizard. so if a Lvl4 sorceror lord took the hat he would lose 2 levels.

2: you know 2 random spells from a random lore. this doesn't preclude you from knowing other lores, so if the Sorceror has a Mark he would generate spells from that lore too(counting as a lvl2)

3: you become stupid.


so a lvl3 Sorceror with the MoT with the hat would be the following,

he would become Lvl2, due to the Hats rules(which are more specific then the book. specific>general)

as he has MoT he would generate 2 spells from the lore of Tzeench. in addition, as per the Hats rules, he would generate 2 random spells from a random lore in the main rule book.


in the end, he would have 4 spells and be a lvl2. 2 spells would be from the Lore of Tzeench, 2 would be from a random lore.



I say this because this is how the Ogre Stronghold ruled it. the big question was on Ogre Slaughtermasters. since Butchers(SMs) know all Gutmagic spells and the Hat doesn't conflict with this we rules that the SM keeps all Gutmagic, has the 2 random spells, and then is reduced to a lvl2(as the hat says he becomes a Lvl2 wizard)

That's an interesting point that you make, with some sound reasoning, but there is one problem. I was wondering what happened to someone who was not a spell caster with the Wizarding Hat, but had a Mark. So, someone who does not have a wizard level already, like a lord, the lore which the hat would give them would be random.

On a side note, where did you get that ruling for the Ogre spell caster, was it in the FAQ?

Turalon wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the wording of the hat is basically 3 parts.

1: you become a Lvl2 Wizard. so if a Lvl4 sorceror lord took the hat he would lose 2 levels.

2: you know 2 random spells from a random lore. this doesn't preclude you from knowing other lores, so if the Sorceror has a Mark he would generate spells from that lore too(counting as a lvl2)

3: you become stupid.


so a lvl3 Sorceror with the MoT with the hat would be the following,

he would become Lvl2, due to the Hats rules(which are more specific then the book. specific>general)

as he has MoT he would generate 2 spells from the lore of Tzeench. in addition, as per the Hats rules, he would generate 2 random spells from a random lore in the main rule book.


in the end, he would have 4 spells and be a lvl2. 2 spells would be from the Lore of Tzeench, 2 would be from a random lore.



I say this because this is how the Ogre Stronghold ruled it. the big question was on Ogre Slaughtermasters. since Butchers(SMs) know all Gutmagic spells and the Hat doesn't conflict with this we rules that the SM keeps all Gutmagic, has the 2 random spells, and then is reduced to a lvl2(as the hat says he becomes a Lvl2 wizard)

That's an interesting point that you make, with some sound reasoning, but there is one problem. I was wondering what happened to someone who was not a spell caster with the Wizarding Hat, but had a Mark. So, someone who does not have a wizard level already, like a lord, the lore which the hat would give them would be random.

On a side note, where did you get that ruling for the Ogre spell caster, was it in the FAQ?

It wasn't the FAQ. it was the descision we reached on the Ogrestronghold about what happens to a Slaughtermaster who takes the hat.

the logic is this, the SM is a Lvl4. the Hat makes him a Lvl2 and gives him 2 random spells. but he is still an ogre spell caster and as such uses Gutmagic(and knows all the spells)

so he knows Gutmagic and the 2 random spells, but his wizard level drops to 2(specific>general)



I extend the logic to the WoC character.


a character with the Hat becomes a Lvl2 wizard and knows 2 random spells.

but if he also has a Mark he will also choose spells from that lore to his new Wizard level of 2 as the rules for Marks say that Wizards with that mark must choose spells from that lore.

a dude with Mark of Khorne will simply have the 2 random spells.



so a Sorceror lord with the hat and a mark will have 2 spells from the Mark's lore and then the 2 Hat spells.

a regular Chaos lord will do the same, unless its a Khorne lord in which case he simply has the 2 hat spells.

Tantras wrote:It's not exactly a super-serious item either, of course. It's just a bit of a laugh...

a bit like the folding fortress. you get a fortress for 100 pts of magic items. that is ridiculous

I seriously can't understand how GW figured these items were worth the entire magic item allotment of a Lord level character.


the Hat isn't worth more then 50 points, possably less. considering you don't pick the lore or the spells and become stupid to boot.


the Fortress? I really can't see much advantage aside from a little protection for a single missile unit. no more then 50 points either.

Uh... The Fortress is one of the best points denial items in the game, considering it can be very hard to move a unit in a building and only skaven are actually able to destroy it.

I mostly agree on the hat. My regular 2,500 point skaven list runs the Hat, but that's for fun instead of its effectiveness. That said, I tend to get excellent mileage out of it.

streamdragon wrote: My regular 2,500 point skaven list runs the Hat, but that's for fun instead of its effectiveness. That said, I tend to get excellent mileage out of it.

That's cause when you roll up the right stuff, it's worth more than its 100 points.

That said, in all actuality, 75 should have been the cost. It still requires a Lord, but doesn't deny you a Ward.

Agreed on getting the right spells. In the three games I've had him in so far, I've gotten Heavens twice and Light once. Didn't get great options from Light, but Urran's thunderbolt is a damn good MM spell and Comet of Cassandora landing in the middle of three HE units is priceless!

As to cost, the best that 75 leaves you with is the 6++ from the Talisman of Protection. Endurance would push you over 100 points. Still, 6++ is better than nothing I suppose. I just stick him in a unit of clan rats for the LoS! and try to stay out of combat.

Sounds pretty solid only thing that beasts the commet comming down is gate way making a HE unit with a lord and bsb go away now that is priceless.

But ya as warriors the hat is too expensive and really you don't need it.

That's the thing.
Adding 100 points to a 65 point goblin lord isn't that crazy.
Adding 100 points to a 210 point (base), chaos lord IS crazy.
By the same token, the chaos lord gets more mileage out of the weapons than the same goblin lord would.
75-80 points might have been a better value, but I wouldn't want to face the Ogre Tyrant who's T6, with a biting blade, charmed shield, and a level 2 caster to boot. (and stupid stupid).

-Matt

I say this because this is how the Ogre Stronghold ruled it. the big question was on Ogre Slaughtermasters. since Butchers(SMs) know all Gutmagic spells and the Hat doesn't conflict with this we rules that the SM keeps all Gutmagic, has the 2 random spells, and then is reduced to a lvl2(as the hat says he becomes a Lvl2 wizard)

I am not sure if this is a great extrapolation for a Chaos Sorc. Butchers know all gutmagic spells, so their spell generation is rather fudged. This would go for anyone who happens to have loremaster. As far as a Chaos Sorc / Lord goes, I would say he now gets 2 spells, and they would have to be from his given lore according to his mark.

From what I get out of the spell generation rules, you are entitled to 1 spell per level, and you get to pick what lore you want that spell to be out of if you have access to more than one lore. I base that off of a Grey Seer who has access to 2 lores, yet only gets 4 spells not 8. On top of that, the wording in the BRB and the FAQ for the book of secrets seem to suggest 1 spell per level, not 1 per level per lore.

The FAQ is clear that a Chaos Sorc becomes a level 1 wizard who knows 1 spell from either fire, shadow or death. They do not get a bonus spell, they get 1. Now they make no mention of a mark in the FAQ for the book, and that leads to some confusion. This leaves some issue with the lore that a Sorc / Lord would choose their spells from, but we do know that you get 1 spell per level as the FAQ and the Grey Seer indicate.

How I would resolve the issue of lore is as follows. A Chaos Sorc with the book is a level 2 caster (2 spells). The hat states that he can use a random lore, while his mark states that he always generates spells from the lore associated with his mark. So when you choose which lore you are going to generate a spell for, you choose the lore associated with your mark, as that fulfills the always part of the rule. It also does not break the rule for the hat, which merely states that they can use a random lore, not that they must.

The ruling for the Ogres makes sense in the context of someone who has loremaster, but it does not fit with the rules outlined in the FAQ, or the BRB.

The lore master combo is interesting.
That would let a Slaan or a Vampire take lore master of 1 lore, then randomly get 2 from another.
Goblin Great Shaman on a Catchweb could also pick up 2 random + the whole goblin lore.

IMO the best Errata GW could add would be that wizards cannot take the wizard hat.

-Matt

Well it seems that a FAQ response in in order, even though I like Grey Templar's reasoning.

Also, I think that the hat is fairly priced at 100pts because it is more a fun item and is not intended for competitive play.

The folding watchtower is something else altogether. I like the idea, but never tried, of taking two wizard lords (one death, one life), put them in the tower with 50 handgunners and see who can take it. But then again, no one likes my Empire anymore...

Lehnsherr wrote:

I say this because this is how the Ogre Stronghold ruled it. the big question was on Ogre Slaughtermasters. since Butchers(SMs) know all Gutmagic spells and the Hat doesn't conflict with this we rules that the SM keeps all Gutmagic, has the 2 random spells, and then is reduced to a lvl2(as the hat says he becomes a Lvl2 wizard)

I am not sure if this is a great extrapolation for a Chaos Sorc. Butchers know all gutmagic spells, so their spell generation is rather fudged. This would go for anyone who happens to have loremaster. As far as a Chaos Sorc / Lord goes, I would say he now gets 2 spells, and they would have to be from his given lore according to his mark.

From what I get out of the spell generation rules, you are entitled to 1 spell per level, and you get to pick what lore you want that spell to be out of if you have access to more than one lore. I base that off of a Grey Seer who has access to 2 lores, yet only gets 4 spells not 8. On top of that, the wording in the BRB and the FAQ for the book of secrets seem to suggest 1 spell per level, not 1 per level per lore.

The FAQ is clear that a Chaos Sorc becomes a level 1 wizard who knows 1 spell from either fire, shadow or death. They do not get a bonus spell, they get 1. Now they make no mention of a mark in the FAQ for the book, and that leads to some confusion. This leaves some issue with the lore that a Sorc / Lord would choose their spells from, but we do know that you get 1 spell per level as the FAQ and the Grey Seer indicate.

How I would resolve the issue of lore is as follows. A Chaos Sorc with the book is a level 2 caster (2 spells). The hat states that he can use a random lore, while his mark states that he always generates spells from the lore associated with his mark. So when you choose which lore you are going to generate a spell for, you choose the lore associated with your mark, as that fulfills the always part of the rule. It also does not break the rule for the hat, which merely states that they can use a random lore, not that they must.

The ruling for the Ogres makes sense in the context of someone who has loremaster, but it does not fit with the rules outlined in the FAQ, or the BRB.

But when you consider the Chaos Marks say that a "Wizard" with the mark generates spells from that lore it does become important.

a Wizard with MoN must generate his spells from the Lore of Nurgle.


since the 2 don't block the other I would say that both give him spells. he gets 2 Nurgle spells because he is a Wizard with the MoN, and he gets 2 random spells because of the hat.

That does make sense grey templar.

turalon can you even put that many into the tower I thought you could only put 20 in there?

since the 2 don't block the other I would say that both give him spells. he gets 2 Nurgle spells because he is a Wizard with the MoN, and he gets 2 random spells because of the hat

The only issue I have with this is you are giving him 4 spells, and it doesn't say to do this anywhere in the rules. Again I point to a Skaven Grey Seer who has access to 2 lores, yet only knows 4 spells not 8. If you read the rules for spell generation, you roll a die for each level he has, and he gets his spells from the chosen lore. There are 2 ways to read that. One way is that at the time you are rolling you pick a lore out of all the lores you know and roll a die. You then know the spell based off your roll, for the chosen lore for that spell.

The other way to read that is the "chosen lore" is the lore you know. It could then be argued that you roll a die, whatever you get is the spell you get, from every lore you know. So if I know 2 lores, and I roll a 3, I now know both 3rd level spells from the lores I know. However, this interpretation does not at all coincide with the Book of Secrets FAQ, or the way a Grey Seer generates spells given that they have access to 2 lores. If anything, the first interpretation is more accurate as a Grey Seer can mix and match freely with his rolls, but still only knows a number of spells equal to his wizard level.

The "Wizard" (which the Chaos book says is interchangeable with Sorceror) can use spells from the random lore, but he always selects spells from the lore associated with the mark. This is no different than the book of secrets which clearly states that the wizard who selects it only knows 1 spell. It doesn't make mention of a mark, but having a mark would not allow him to have more spells, but rather he would be forced to generate spells from a given lore. In practice, when you roll to generate your spells, you would be forced to choose from the lore with your mark, and ignore the random spells. The fact that the hat (and book) use the words can, and may respectively, tell you that you do not have to use those lores.

I think thats an oversight by GW and they probably intended the book, and the hat to overrule the mark, but thats RAI. I also agree with Matt that an errata / faq that says a wizard cannot select either item would be in order. I think its pretty obvious what GW's intent was with these items (personal opinion, you may disagree freely). The FAQ on the book of secrets (a huge nerf) also kind of points that the intent is for these to be taken by combat type characters, not casting lords. The problem was an oversight on how it would interact with the marks, and that pesky rule that states all Chaos Wizards must have spells from the lore associated with their mark. I still don't see how you could argue you get 4 spells for a level 2 caster without a specific rule outlining you must do so.

Actually, something interesting here.

the Hat says "...can use a randomly chosen spell lore"

This seems to imply that if the bearer can use another lore he may do so.

so a guy with a Mark could choose his spells from the Mark's lore instead.


I could be wrong, but this is interesting.


this discussion is fairly mopot anyway. why on earth would you blow your full magic allotment on this item, especially with Chaos Lords or Wizard Lords. they should either be fighty or have things like the puppet or black tongue.

cowpow16 wrote: turalon can you even put that many into the tower I thought you could only put 20 in there?

In the watchtower scenario you can only start the game with 20 models in the tower, but if you look on pg 126 (where the folding watchtower item tells you to look) you can fit a unit of any size in the tower. There is no restriction on the size of it. But then again, after designing that list and telling my friends about it I decided never to run it.

this discussion is fairly mopot anyway. why on earth would you blow your full magic allotment on this item, especially with Chaos Lords or Wizard Lords. they should either be fighty or have things like the puppet or black tongue.

Well that is very true, I just thought it might be funny to try out in a friendly game (also the Lord was going to be on a dragon!). I brought this issue up more because I was wondering what some other people thought about how the hat interacts with the marks.

Personally, I think when, or if, I use the item I will say that spell generation is from a random lore.

Ok sorry I was going off memory turalon.

Grey templar wouldnt that then mean that the sorcerer needs to take the chaos lore?
Hat says can army book says always generates spells from the lore appropriate with the mark.

That being said dosnt that mean then that you pretty much have to use the lore of chaos unless you are mok?

thats what i was saying in my last post.

still, I think its that he gets 2 spells from the Chaos lore and then the 2 hat spells.

Tough call wouldnt it be nice to just call up gw and be like so ya whats the deal.

4 spells in total
2 from a chaos lore
and 2 from any random lore.

I dont really see where the 2 random spells come from it just seems and expensive way to get a stupid chaos sorcerer.

Its a gag item, just like the Potion of Speed( ), Scarecrow banner, and Pigeon Plucker Pendent(wtf???)

Haha hey im not saying its not but hey it is effective for gobos as far as i know those guys are so cheap already why not haha.

Gobbo's is the one case where i could see doing it.


any other Lord choices(Goblin Lords seems a contradiction) and its not worth it.

Grey Templar wrote:Gobbo's is the one case where i could see doing it.


any other Lord choices(Goblin Lords seems a contradiction) and its not worth it.

Skaven Warlords are cheap enough to get away with it if you have the points.

Very true but its almost not needed since those 100 pts can get you another what 50 slaves haha.

I'll just jump in and say the one thing that I can provide to this conversation: the mantra "let's just send in more slaves" will not win you battles. Trust me. Poor, poor Scabbicus.

it might not win more battles in and of itself, but are 50 slaves going to be more useful then 2 completely random spells from an unknown lore and a stupid skaven unit.


The slaves will be completely reliable in what they deliver.


what will you do when you roll up Lore of Metal and are facing Ogres or Tomb Kings and your spells are Plague of Rust and Golden hounds.

Haha slaves and reliable in the same sentence without are not in between them haha.

I kid but really who wouldnt use more slaves or clan rats like in a fun game maybe but still I think its more funny when you have millions of slaves haha.

At Ard Boyz semis this year there were 2 skaven players.

one had 2 blocks of 100 slaves and 3 HPAs


thank goodness I got the Skaven player running many blocks of 20 dudes, 1 group of 50 slaves, and only 2 HPAs

Steamrolled him with my Ogres so hard it wasn't even funny(47 kill points to 7 on mission 1)