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The emperor of humanity created 20 Primarchs and they got separated through the powers of chaos, this much i know but
1) Couldn't the missing legions be because the emperor could not find two primarchs at all
2) And with nobody to lead the legions, the legions just disbanded.

(I know this may make me sound like an idiot but i was wondering to myself if it was actually possible)

The popular conclusion on the internet is that one Legion was wiped out by the SW and the other was absorbed by the Ultramarines.

coolyo294 wrote:The popular conclusion on the internet is that one Legion was wiped out by the SW and the other was absorbed by the Ultramarines.

What do you mean they were wiped out by Space Wolves? Were in the fluff does it say that?

In a book for the HH, it was either Prospero Burns or the Space wolf one...

I have a theory (not a great one mind you).

We know that the two missing Primarchs did something bad enough to be stricken from all records (IDK what, but they did come back to the Imperium)

If you destroy the Blood Ravens as Chaos in DoWC, you learn Abbadon likes knowing the Blood Ravens were harmed (AND Eliphas was talking about the Blood Raven's secret the whole mission)

So I believe that the Blood Ravens were one of the Founding Legions, Betrayed the Imperium, but redeemed themselves.

Well, GW now has 2 legions that they can magically (hopefully without Matt Ward) bring back form the dead to either serve chaos or the Emperor, and I'd say if they ever run out of fluff, well here you go! 2 more fresh legions to color however they want, kinda like a back up plan

SSsilverskullSS wrote:1) Couldn't the missing legions be because the emperor could not find two primarchs at all

It's been mentioned in the fluff previously that all 20 Primarchs were found, and that the 2 'unkown' Legions fought at least at the start of the Heresy, although that last bit seems to have been retconned by the Horus Heresy books.

2) And with nobody to lead the legions, the legions just disbanded.

That doesn't really seem like much of a reason to strike them completely from Imperial records.

To my mind, the most likely explanation has always been that they rebelled and were stricken from records because they were completely wiped out. The same would have happened to the other Traitor Legions if they had been similarly wiped out following the Heresy.

Games Workshop is mysteriously silent on the issue.

The idea is, from what I understand, to purposefully leave a blank spot in the background so that you can have a place to fit your own DiY chapters. To that end, I'm of the opinion that one of them went rogue (and was destroyed) while the other was loyal. (And still destroyed. Possibly by the rogue legion?) Either way, they were removed from all Imperial records. They are alluded to in several of the Horus Heresy books, although nothing concrete is really mentioned. (Although I haven't read Prospero Burns or the Space Wolf one yet...)

Jimsolo wrote:The idea is, from what I understand, to purposefully leave a blank spot in the background so that you can have a place to fit your own DiY chapters.

That's been an oft'floated reason for it, but frankly, I've never been a fan of the idea. If the intention is for those Legions to still be running around, it doesn't make sense for them to be removed from records.

IMO, they're just supposed to be an interesting footnote in the fluff, rather than something specifically intended for players to adapt.


It would only really make sense for them to be usable by players if the game was actually set in the Horus Heresy period.

Jimsolo wrote:Games Workshop is mysteriously silent on the issue.

The idea is, from what I understand, to purposefully leave a blank spot in the background so that you can have a place to fit your own DiY chapters.

That was true BEFORE the Horus Heresy novel series. It has been made very clear that both legions were 'dealt with' long before the heresy and very early on in the crusade. GW has removed all doubt of their fates.

To that end, I'm of the opinion that one of them went rogue (and was destroyed) while the other was loyal. (And still destroyed. Possibly by the rogue legion?) Either way, they were removed from all Imperial records. They are alluded to in several of the Horus Heresy books, although nothing concrete is really mentioned. (Although I haven't read Prospero Burns or the Space Wolf one yet...)

First, read Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. The fates of the two legions are clearly sealed well before the Heresy. One was destroyed by the SW. The other, is a little more unclear but is described as 'lost'. The 'lost' legion wasn't totally lost however as it's survivors were absorbed into the UM. My theory is that their primarch was a-killed in action almost imediately b-not found/killed by the Emperor.

SickSix wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:Games Workshop is mysteriously silent on the issue.

The idea is, from what I understand, to purposefully leave a blank spot in the background so that you can have a place to fit your own DiY chapters.

That was true BEFORE the Horus Heresy novel series. It has been made very clear that both legions were 'dealt with' long before the heresy and very early on in the crusade. GW has removed all doubt of their fates.

No, it wasn't.

It was NEVER true.

GW have said why there are two missing: To add mystery to the setting. They said it back in 2nd ed, they said it in 3rd ed, and they said it in 4th ed. It's probably the most asked question in the setting and has been addressed in White Dwarf multiple times, always with the same answer. It's so that you wonder what they did and why they're missing.

The reason people keep creating their own(and believing that's why they're missing) is that people(like nature) abhor a vacuum, so attempt to fill it in.

SickSix wrote:

Spoiler:

It's also been made pretty clear that the Blood Ravens are Thousand Son's loyalist successors.

It's not clear at all. There's a couple of comments in HH novels scattered around that people have jumped to conclusions over, but nothings been clearly stated.

-Loki- wrote:

SickSix wrote:

Spoiler:

It's also been made pretty clear that the Blood Ravens are Thousand Son's loyalist successors.

It's not clear at all. There's a couple of comments in HH novels scattered around that people have jumped to conclusions over, but nothings been clearly stated.

It's definitely not clear, as that doesn't explain why the Blood Ravens have a Blood Angel relic that the BA can't account for.

The Legions are there so fans can come up with their own stories and fluff behind them. GW leaves a lot of room for this, be it that there are "1,000 Space Marine Chapters", "Untold numbers of minor Craftworlds", "A million worlds in the Imperium" for Guard Regiments, Chaos Warbands fracturing from the legions, etc..

We'll probably never know what the deal was with them.

All that is known about the 2 missing legions is that they were striken from all records for some misdeed and every Astartes and Primarch took a vow of silence to never speak their names again.

in First Heretic, Magnus warns Lorgar that, if he continues down the road he is on, he risks his Legion being delt with just like the other 2 were. Striken from all records, destroyed, and never spoken of again.



My personal view is that the Primarchs organized a rebellion against the Emperor which the Space Wolves were able to crush singlehandedly. Then, the Emperor covered up the rebellion by everyone taking the vow of silence.

my question is this, what could they have done that is so incredibly deliciously naughty that both traitor and loyalist STILL have an interest in keeping the secret, the traitors having forsaken all vows to the emperor and being the troublemakers that they are.

They are secret in bad way not a good way...
As in "What you did was so bad we are gonna kill you all and then forget who you are"

purplefood wrote:They are secret in bad way not a good way...
As in "What you did was so bad we are gonna kill you all and then forget who you are"

but what!, it must have been something quite odd besides just rebelling for the traitors to still be keeping it under wraps

romegamer wrote:

purplefood wrote:They are secret in bad way not a good way...
As in "What you did was so bad we are gonna kill you all and then forget who you are"

but what!, it must have been something quite odd besides just rebelling for the traitors to still be keeping it under wraps

Maybe none of them particularly care...
I mean, if i was at war with someone for 10,000 years i wouldn't be all that hasty to tell them things they had forgotten...

purplefood wrote:

romegamer wrote:

purplefood wrote:They are secret in bad way not a good way...
As in "What you did was so bad we are gonna kill you all and then forget who you are"

but what!, it must have been something quite odd besides just rebelling for the traitors to still be keeping it under wraps

Maybe none of them particularly care...
I mean, if i was at war with someone for 10,000 years i wouldn't be all that hasty to tell them things they had forgotten...

hm, perhaps this is true.

purplefood wrote:Maybe none of them particularly care...
I mean, if i was at war with someone for 10,000 years i wouldn't be all that hasty to tell them things they had forgotten...

Yeah, the Traitor Legions would gain nothing by spreading word of the lost Legions... even assuming anybody that they managed to communicate with actually believed them.

insaniak wrote:

purplefood wrote:Maybe none of them particularly care...
I mean, if i was at war with someone for 10,000 years i wouldn't be all that hasty to tell them things they had forgotten...

Yeah, the Traitor Legions would gain nothing by spreading word of the lost Legions... even assuming anybody that they managed to communicate with actually believed them.

but then, might they discuss it amongst themselves, I.E. it could be in CSM fluff?

The "stricken from the records" thing is a fairly poor excuse to begin with. The Imperium has absolutely no idea about the history of the Necrons for instance, yet we still know it. The story is mostly told from the Imperium perspective but we the audience still know far more then they do.

I remember in the Eisenhorn books Eisenhorn (an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor who thus has the most knowledge of aliens in the Imperium) didn't even know what an Eldar Aspect Warrior was. Imperial records wouldn't have information on most of the stuff that appears in codices.

I think it was in Prospero Burns that Leman Russ said "I've lost two brothers, I'll not lose a third" when talking about Magnus.

Makes me think something was wrong with the primarch(s) themselves rather than the legion. I thought one always had a genetic abnormaly which required it to be destroyed. The other I don't know.

The two lost legions are also referred to as 'The Lost' and 'The Cursed' on one of the HH books.

AFAIK, the current 'myth' is as follows.

- All 20 legions participated in the Crusade, so left Terra.
- Two Legions/Primarchs were lost and stricken from records BEFORE the Heresy started. Everyone is very sad about this.
- The Space Wolves allude to the fact that they've fought Astartes before the Heresy.
- The Ultramarines' ranks swelled soon after one of these Legions was disbanded.

IMO, this infers the folowing.

- At least one of the legions did something so bad that they were destroyed. Maybe the Primarch was a Chaos worshipping mutant? Maybe his corruption was much worse than even the Thousand Sons. ('The Cursed') On the other hand, maybe he hated the Imperium or rebelled. We know that Angron hated the Emperor at first, and resented him even after. I would guess that, if the Legion did something so bad as to be destroyed, they probably wouldn't join the Ultramarines too, so..

- If that legion was 'The Cursed', then could there be a Primarch that was merely 'Lost'. So, had left the galaxy, chose not to be part of the Imperium, or was simply dead by the time the Emperor found his landing point. If so, and his Legion (who would have been part of the Crusade, looking for him) hadn't actually done anything wrong, then it's likely they would have been 'folded' into another legion rather than allowed to carry on with no Primarch?

Didn't it used to be back in 2ed one expunged from records and one removed, which kind of says the same thing as Ian.

One possibly refused the Emperors offering and the other didn't make it.

I put the Emperors abduction of Angron down to him not being able to afford losing any more of his sons.

insaniak wrote:

2) And with nobody to lead the legions, the legions just disbanded.

That doesn't really seem like much of a reason to strike them completely from Imperial records.

To my mind, the most likely explanation has always been that they rebelled and were stricken from records because they were completely wiped out. The same would have happened to the other Traitor Legions if they had been similarly wiped out following the Heresy.

When we consider that one legion was only absorbed rather than wiped out... I think this imply that whatever happened to the primarch of that Legion wasn't necessarily his fault or if it was something he did, it was so limited or unilaterally done the Legion was forgiven. As to why his legion would have all records of it whiped out, it may just have been either a symbolic act of unifcation of the Ultramarines and that legion, under a single banner... or if whatever the primarch did was severe enough it may have been to protect his legion from the animosity of the other legions.

I think purely from a story telling perspective there are few things this primarch may have done that are so extreme as to result in this type of expungement of records, without his legion necessarily branded as traitors and whiped out; insanity or mental illness, or suicide strike me as most poinent narrative.

Before the HH sreies, I thought Omegon might have been one of the deleted primarchs.

Is there any fluff pointing to one of them being absorbed?

From everything I have ever heard from GW, the two legions exist simply to leave room for DiY. One loyalist, one Traitor. And at this point, I think its a good block of information vacuum that blends perfectly with 40K vibe of burn, pillage and erase those you dont like.


In Prospero Burns, a conversation between Magnus, Russ and I believe Lorgar, Russ says that the "Thousand Sons reek of unholy and evil power. A power that were held by others." To which The other primarchs respond with the lines "Its nothing like them, and we are never to speak of them." I also felt later they alluded to pacts with "Evil powers" from beyond the mortal realm.

There was a small reference in there as well about the flesh warp being a tell tale of a need to cleanse the legion.

Also I believe it was arihaim or Magnus that told a remembrance that Russ intended to wipe all history of the ToS out. When the remembrancer said it was absurd to think you could wipe out a Legion, the Astarte affirmed that it could be done and alludes to it having been done.

So my guesses are that the 'Traitor' legion were even more rampant with sorcery and warp powers then the TS. The SW campaigned to remove both legions. Then the missing legion embraced the powers too deeply and were wiped out by the SW.

The other primarch i believe was mentioned in one of the first HH with horus. He was warped into a room of all of the vat baby primarch's and paused at one and thought of 'all of the glorious that were to never come to pass.' This gave me the feeling that the 'Loyalist' missing primarch had something tragic happen to him. Either genetically or due to external problems.

The story teller in me likes to believe That the two missing primarchs fate were linked. Like traitor primarch embraced chaos on a joint campaign between the two. Loyalist primarch calls him on it and gets killed. So then the SW get called to kill the chaos and expunge the two legions to bury the incident.

This would explain why the SW abhor warp powers, the tragic loss of one legion, the scornful loss of the other, the alludes to a chaos related death of one, why the SW have fought astartes before, and a perfect premise for a 'never speak of them' again. It was a traitor incident where the emperor could quash it and make all forget it ever happened.

But why were they expunged while the others were deemed tratiors?