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Yes, lost to us could also mean they are dead but read the line before that. Malcador warns Dorn not to even think about them. I think this sounds like Malcador trying to stop Dorn's unorthodox idea.

I've always thought that one of them might our good friend Sigmar from Warhammer Fantasy, but the other I'm not sure of. And BTW, I think, the Big Brother society that the IoM is, the chances are most the traitor Primarchs were wiped from record to, and you only get to know about them when you become a SM.

Cyrax wrote:Yes, lost to us could also mean they are dead but read the line before that. Malcador warns Dorn not to even think about them. I think this sounds like Malcador trying to stop Dorn's unorthodox idea.

Even with the line before that it still reads as them being dead. Malcador's line more likely referes to the fact that the Emperor made them swear not to speak of them again

Urien_Rakarth wrote:I've always thought that one of them might our good friend Sigmar from Warhammer Fantasy, but the other I'm not sure of. And BTW, I think, the Big Brother society that the IoM is, the chances are most the traitor Primarchs were wiped from record to, and you only get to know about them when you become a SM.

This was a direction GW went with for a short time but then retconned the idea.

It used to be implied that sigmar was a primarch and fantasy world was in 40k universe. Even there was a story depicting sigmar's pod falling from the sky like a twin tailed comet. However now fantasy and 40k are two seperate universes and things suggested otherwise were removed.
Also big brother society like imperium needs enemies to control its subjects. So average citizen knows about traitor primarchs.
Getting back topic, I think the missing legion(s) did something that was bad for the emperor but justifiable or appealing to an average citizen. Therefore they were covered up.

I think the 2 missing legions are supposed to be the basis for some of the player created chapters who are supposed to be successor chapters from unknown legions, i mean there're a pretty lot of them out there including official chapters released by GW.

Viersche wrote:i mean there're a pretty lot of them out there including official chapters released by GW.

This is not true at all

Well, I got a couple of guesses, probably totaly wrong because I've haven't read all HH books.

The first thing that struk me was lost in a warp-storm, and possibly appering about 10 000 (or more) years later. Or even going back in time. As I've understood it, non of these theories is way of.

BUT (yeah, there's always a but in a debate)
Why would the Emperor hide/destroy all memories of them? Let us say, for simplicity, that this is just the "Forgotten".
Might it be as simple as shame? That something happend that he never could have thought of or caused by giving the primarch a certain order? Shame can be quite powerful as a feeling goes, and the emperor probably want the people to see him as "perfect".
OR might it even be so that the Emperor KNEW that the heresy would come, and decided to save a full legion by sending them into the future via a warp-storm? Not probable, I know, but impossible? No, I think not.

The other idea that struck me is that there is some guard regiments (catachan for example) that is larger than ordinary men. Is it impossible for a marine to mate with a ordinary women and have a living child with here? After some ten thousand years the offspring would have lost all marine traits (a rigid chest instead of ribs and a double set of hearts comes to mind).

How come noone ever mentions Horus smashing his fist into one of the pods during his travels through time and space via the chaos gods? Didn't it break apart and reveal a twisted monster as it was sucked into the portal that scattered the primarchs? Perhaps one of the primarchs was a horrible mutant. more so than Magnus or Vulken. If this were the case perhaps the Emperor just destroyed him upon discovery? Maybe the primarch looked like the "eye ball" guy from the Marvel Superheroes game on good ol' Sega Saturn!

I think I can offer some insight on the missing legions/primarchs. 40k radio, some weeks back, interviewed Rick Priestley. They asked him a ton of interesting questions related to the inspiration for various spars of 40k fluff; foundational stuff. One of the hosts asked Rick about the lost legions, and what the deal was with them. I expected a typical brushoff answer, but Rick was surprisingly forthcoming on the original intention of that bit of fluff.

Originally, as the idea developed in his head, the lost legions were essentially traitors in the same was as the other legions that aligned with Horus. The difference is they alone performed some great redemptive act, and their reward for such heroism was to be stricken from history, rather than be remembered as traitors. In essence, they had sinned too much to be allowed to live on, but their subsequent erasure from history was a gift, not a sanction.

Note that Rick said this was the original intent of the lost legions, and GW may have taken his ideas and put them to use in some other way since then. It does make a great deal of sense though. When you think of legions like the Sons of Horus and the Emperor's Children, you don't get much worse.

I read somewhere that the two missing legions were the missing Roman legionaires.

http://www.thesonsofscotland.co.uk/xilegion.htm

http://heritage-key.com/rome/what-really-happened-roman-ninth-legion

Seems pretty plausible since the original writers were historical gamers

It's a reference, for sure.

The lost legions got rolled into the Ultramarines. What happened to them or their primarchs to make this happen, we do not know. We do know that they had "separate tragedies" that somehow forshadowed the horus heresy.

In Nemesis (HH Series) a Vindicare Assassin mentions having killed space marines before. Implying at least the Vindicare clade has taken commissions on Space Marines before the start of the heresy. Now which space marines and why would Malcador authorise such hits. This could well point to the involvement of the two missing legions in particular the purged.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Viersche wrote:i mean there're a pretty lot of them out there including official chapters released by GW.

This is not true at all

Yes, this is laughable untrue. There are studio chapters of 'unknown' progenitors, but it's never even been implied that any established chapter was founded from the geneseeds of legio II or XI.

ph34r wrote:The lost legions got rolled into the Ultramarines. What happened to them or their primarchs to make this happen, we do not know. We do know that they had "separate tragedies" that somehow forshadowed the horus heresy.

No, it's rumoured in First Heretic this occurred.

Algorithm wrote:I think I can offer some insight on the missing legions/primarchs. 40k radio, some weeks back, interviewed Rick Priestley. They asked him a ton of interesting questions related to the inspiration for various spars of 40k fluff; foundational stuff. One of the hosts asked Rick about the lost legions, and what the deal was with them. I expected a typical brushoff answer, but Rick was surprisingly forthcoming on the original intention of that bit of fluff.

Originally, as the idea developed in his head, the lost legions were essentially traitors in the same was as the other legions that aligned with Horus. The difference is they alone performed some great redemptive act, and their reward for such heroism was to be stricken from history, rather than be remembered as traitors. In essence, they had sinned too much to be allowed to live on, but their subsequent erasure from history was a gift, not a sanction.

How very interesting - that's a distinctly more compelling explanation than any suggested here.

Edit: accidentally insulted the Dark Angels this time.

danesk wrote:OR might it even be so that the Emperor KNEW that the heresy would come, and decided to save a full legion by sending them into the future via a warp-storm? Not probable, I know, but impossible? No, I think not.

This isn't likely since the Emperor didn't have the gift of farsight. If he did, he wouldn't have made all of the mistakes he did.

In the later Horus Heresy books the Primarks do start to shed some light on this,

As has already been stated, the marines from these two Legions, at least some, did end up in the Ultramarines, which has in excess of 110,000 marines at the time of the Heresy.

Also when one of the Primarchs starts talking to another, they do say something about fallen brothers and they say they are sworn to secrecy.

Im sure as the HH progresses, so will the fluff with these bad boys

But theres no conrete info on them at all really

Mako_Boy wrote:In the later Horus Heresy books the Primarks do start to shed some light on this,

As has already been stated, the marines from these two Legions, at least some, did end up in the Ultramarines, which has in excess of 110,000 marines at the time of the Heresy.

No, that's a rumour repeated by one of the World Bearers in First Heretic, and then dismissed as unproven by another; yes it is possible, yes it would be interesting, but no, it's quite explicitly not definitively true.

Daston wrote:Dorn questions if the two missing brothers were infact warnings that went unheard.

Would that not imply they either took arms against the Imperium or were effected by Chaos?

Quoting this before i read the next two pages of posts....

But, i think this referred not necessarily to the fact that they turned to chaos, but that they fought each other, much like a mini horus heresy.

My view/best guess, like a few others, is that the two legions fought, the Cursed attacking the Lost. With most of the Lost being destroyed, or well, Lost to the imperium, and the Big E deciding that the Cursed must be punished, Russ was sent to destroy the crippled legion ( i assume that the fighting between the 2 lost legions took a major toll on both sides). The remanants of the Lost were then folded into the Ultramarines, which i assume due to the swelling of Ultramarine numbers at one point in their history.

Algorithm wrote:I think I can offer some insight on the missing legions/primarchs. 40k radio, some weeks back, interviewed Rick Priestley. They asked him a ton of interesting questions related to the inspiration for various spars of 40k fluff; foundational stuff. One of the hosts asked Rick about the lost legions, and what the deal was with them. I expected a typical brushoff answer, but Rick was surprisingly forthcoming on the original intention of that bit of fluff.

Originally, as the idea developed in his head, the lost legions were essentially traitors in the same was as the other legions that aligned with Horus. The difference is they alone performed some great redemptive act, and their reward for such heroism was to be stricken from history, rather than be remembered as traitors. In essence, they had sinned too much to be allowed to live on, but their subsequent erasure from history was a gift, not a sanction.

Note that Rick said this was the original intent of the lost legions, and GW may have taken his ideas and put them to use in some other way since then. It does make a great deal of sense though. When you think of legions like the Sons of Horus and the Emperor's Children, you don't get much worse.

Well, in the current BL material, these two Legions are gone long before the Heresy takes place.


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Mako_Boy wrote:In the later Horus Heresy books the Primarks do start to shed some light on this,

As has already been stated, the marines from these two Legions, at least some, did end up in the Ultramarines, which has in excess of 110,000 marines at the time of the Heresy.

This is conjecture, and dismissed as gross rumor in the next sentence. Ultramarines could have also swelled in size due to their recruiting practices (Ultima Segmentum largest portion of the Imperium) and the fact that they had the lowest casualty rates among the Legions during the Great Crusade.

There are a few first founding legions here on dakka dakka that are very very well written and should be a real chapter/legion.

I know its not deffinatley true. and i know its dismissed as a rumour, but a rumour in the BL lore is better than nothing. And even with their low casualty rate and recruitment worlds, it says all over the place their ranks were swollen in a very short amount of time.

Im not saying its Fact, all im saying is its an explantaion that has been ventured. Even if one character does dismiss it a sentance later.

danesk wrote:The other idea that struck me is that there is some guard regiments (catachan for example) that is larger than ordinary men. Is it impossible for a marine to mate with a ordinary women and have a living child with here? After some ten thousand years the offspring would have lost all marine traits (a rigid chest instead of ribs and a double set of hearts comes to mind).

This is due to nothing more than natural evolution, after living on a higher than earth gravity planet tht is full of deadly things you get big and strong. Space Marines do not breed, if they could there would be little fear in a chapter losing its genebank.

Omegus wrote:

Algorithm wrote:I think I can offer some insight on the missing legions/primarchs. 40k radio, some weeks back, interviewed Rick Priestley. They asked him a ton of interesting questions related to the inspiration for various spars of 40k fluff; foundational stuff. One of the hosts asked Rick about the lost legions, and what the deal was with them. I expected a typical brushoff answer, but Rick was surprisingly forthcoming on the original intention of that bit of fluff.

Originally, as the idea developed in his head, the lost legions were essentially traitors in the same was as the other legions that aligned with Horus. The difference is they alone performed some great redemptive act, and their reward for such heroism was to be stricken from history, rather than be remembered as traitors. In essence, they had sinned too much to be allowed to live on, but their subsequent erasure from history was a gift, not a sanction.

Note that Rick said this was the original intent of the lost legions, and GW may have taken his ideas and put them to use in some other way since then. It does make a great deal of sense though. When you think of legions like the Sons of Horus and the Emperor's Children, you don't get much worse.

Well, in the current BL material, these two Legions are gone long before the Heresy takes place.

And that means absolutely nothing, he was comparing the two groups. One went rougue but then did an act of self sacrifice (so the emperor gave them the option to be deleted from history instead of villified), the other went bad and stayed bad (so the emperor did not give an option).

Mako_Boy wrote:I know its not deffinatley true. and i know its dismissed as a rumour, but a rumour in the BL lore is better than nothing. And even with their low casualty rate and recruitment worlds, it says all over the place their ranks were swollen in a very short amount of time.

Im not saying its Fact, all im saying is its an explantaion that has been ventured. Even if one character does dismiss it a sentance later.

No, that's just what you did; if you don't want to be corrected, make clear what you mean. Also, try actually reading the thread before you post; the same assertion had already been corrected a few posts earlier.

Ok man, whatever.

But, my view that BL will probably reveal more about these two legions in time with more releases seems probable if not likely. I see there is a new HH book available on Amazon for pre order called the Primarchs..could be ..revealing.

in the HH books they other two primarch were killed and there records expunged and all the primarchs have sworn an oath to the emperor to never speak about- see HH book the first heritic for the conversation with Logar and Magnus

Mako_Boy wrote:Ok man, whatever.

Oh, the scintillating wit! It's as though Oscar Wilde were here on the internet.

And if you're going to PM someone to whine about being corrected, try being less aggressive about it.

Im not trying to be witty, or agressive. "Ok man, whatever" was trying to defuse anything and move on. I stand corrected on points of fact, so lets move swiftly on. And apologies that i was sooooo wrong and outrageously arrogant you felt the need to post absolutley nothing about the topic in hand, just to point a finger at me.

I always imagined that they were turned into daemons (or part daemons) but were still loyal to the emperor - so it kinda went against the emperors beliefs that chaos could not be controlled and should be destroyed, so he deleted all records of the lost legions and sent them on a one way mission and kept everyone quite cause you don't wanna go about saying "yea we can control chaos energy blah blah blah emperor was wrong"

There is always the possibility that they went to war against each other, in a much-escalated version of the SW/DA rivalry, then the Emperor removed them from the records to prevent people thinking the Marines weren't united.

i hope that more light is shed on this in HH.
i get the idea that one, or both, might not be dead. they say 'Lost' not actually dead.
By this i mean Chaos. Chaos Marines wouldnt talk about them becuase they are persuing thier own goals.