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shimraa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

There is also the thing that it makes little sence seeing as 40K fans would still be able to create DIY chapters without the missing legions. this is proved by the massive amout of DIY chapters that have no link to them

Yes there could have been DiY chapters. But you couldnt have DiY Legions. The ability to deal with legions is a whole different level of customizing your fluff then a chapter. Also I know I feel more attached to the glories of a legion as opposed to a chapter. If I were to make up my own astartes, I would rather make a glorious legion then a splinter chapter. Thats just me though. So I am glad that GW left it open.

Apart from the fact that the two removed legions (they are not technically missing, seeing as the primarches and the Emperor were fully aware of what happened to them) must not have been that glorious due to their end. GW have not left their histories open as they have a defined end point, they no longer exist in the 40k universe, as it currently stands any homebrew 'missing' legion is only fitting for a Great Crusade force.

Thanks for answering the question

Lord Demon wrote:Was warhammer fantasy not part of the 40k universe long ago? But they retconned it and seperated the 2 settings? I remember hearing somewhere that sigmar used to be a primarch. Landing in a twintailed comet (birthtube thing). Having superhuman strength etc.

Maybe Sigmar and the first great chaos lord in fantasy where primarchs. So gw first intended them to be primarchs and later they retconned the settings. Keeping the 2 lost primarch's lost just to keep them mysterious.

There's a big debate on this, but basically, Warhammer Fantasy used to be a planet shrouded in warp storms in the 40k universe but isn't anymore (not officially, it was an offhand comment from one of the designers). There's some hints that they are different realities, and the warp connects them (like in the Albion campaign, one of the Chaos magic items had a strikingly similar descrition to a Chainsword and came from the Realm of Chaos). But still, they're separate.

However, the fact that they were both found and did fight at least at the start of the great crusade means they aren't from the Fantasy setting.

Perhaps nothing happened to the actual legions, I feel like the two primarchs we're possibly just lost to time and space.

I'm fairly certain the space sharks will turn out to be from the forgotten legion.

Zalmout wrote:Perhaps nothing happened to the actual legions, I feel like the two primarchs we're possibly just lost to time and space.

The Horus Heresy novels make a lot of references to them. They did exist, the primarchs were found, and did fight at the start of the crusade.

There's various remarks from various characters that suggest one was disbanded and absorbed by the Ultramarines, the fate of the primarch unknown, and Russ was sent after the other and destroyed the legion.

See i'm a big fan of the "fill the gap with your own ideas" theory. My current work in progress is a chapter called "The Star Dragons". And literally, they are space marines who's geneseed has mutated so badly, that they are lizard-like and dragonic, evenin going as far as for some of them to sprout wings.

My Fluff reasoning, is that the Emperor could do nothing to control this mutation, and regretfully ordered their destruction, and subsequent removal from imperial records. Present day, some of them have managed to escape, and they are still loyalists. This also gives them fluff reasons for fighting imperial armies, as they are attacked on sight, and will only fight imperial forces in self defence.

Maybe not the most original fluff, but i have the removed legions to thank for it!

But how would the Imperium know to attack them on sight?

Well, given that they are space marines who don't look human, i'd say that's immediate grounds for attack isnt it? The average imperial guardsmen would think it was a possessed Space Marine (chaos) or something, same probably goes for current loyalists marines. After all, their policy is, kill it now, ask questions later.

Durza wrote:But how would the Imperium know to attack them on sight?

Which is a very good point most 'lost legion' homebrew fluff writters forget. It is only the reader and a select few agents of the IoM that would have access to the information presented in the C:SM so 99.999999999999999999999999999% of most humans have no idea there were 2 lost legions at all.

If the space wolves are the ones who destroyed another legion, what makes them so special? Between that and them basically outing the Thousand Sons because they fear psykers, why are they being treated more trustworthy than any other chapters?

Don't worry, it's not (unless I've missed something significant) even canonical that the Space Wolves were responsible for the purging of the missing legion/legions; it's just an inference based on the Space Wolves being noted as having fought Marines before the heresy began. This might have been one or both of the lost legions, or might equally well have been a disloyal/corrupted splinter of any of the legions, even their own. I doubt we'll ever know one way or the other.

English Assassin wrote:Don't worry, it's not (unless I've missed something significant) even canonical that the Space Wolves were responsible for the purging of the missing legion/legions; it's just an inference based on the Space Wolves being noted as having fought Marines before the heresy began. This might have been one or both of the lost legions, or might equally well have been a disloyal/corrupted splinter of any of the legions, even their own. I doubt we'll ever know one way or the other.

I think to believe that is being very narrow minded. I mean they do just about everything but come out and say that Russ and his dogs have already destroyed another legion.

My thing is, all the Primarchs had a role or 'class'. So what role or 'class' of warrior was missing? What would the two missing primarchs have been destined for or specialized in?

SickSix wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Don't worry, it's not (unless I've missed something significant) even canonical that the Space Wolves were responsible for the purging of the missing legion/legions; it's just an inference based on the Space Wolves being noted as having fought Marines before the heresy began. This might have been one or both of the lost legions, or might equally well have been a disloyal/corrupted splinter of any of the legions, even their own. I doubt we'll ever know one way or the other.

I think to believe that is being very narrow minded. I mean they do just about everything but come out and say that Russ and his dogs have already destroyed another legion.

And yet it remains at best implied, not stated as fact. Inference, implication and fact are quite distinct things. There would be fewer pointless arguments in here if more people grasped that.

SickSix wrote:My thing is, all the Primarchs had a role or 'class'. So what role or 'class' of warrior was missing? What would the two missing primarchs have been destined for or specialized in?

This is a really good way to approach this, in my opinion. Each primarch fills an archetype of some sort (although some overlap significantly). It's likely that whatever the reason for the loss of these primarchs, they must have been different from their brothers in some way, and possibly even radically different in a way that would cause the loss of their legion.

The biggest role I see missing is the pacifist. It seems counter-intuitive that a being designed for war would not want to fight, but Lorgar did not consider himself much of a warrior. I believe very strongly that one of the missing primarchs simply did not want to fight, as it's a sort of obvious what-if. What if the Emperor rediscovered a son who grew up in peace, had no warrior spirit, and didn't want to participate in the Great Crusade at all? The pacifist primarch would have led his legion in a lackluster manner, been shunned by his brothers and hated by his father, and in my view, killed himself (or possibly just disappeared). The ultimate emo primarch, but arguably for good reason. His legion would have been "forgotten" and disbanded, but his aid would still be wished for by Dorn in the dark times of the Heresy.

(rant) As for the disbanded legion being absorbed into the Ultramarines, I'm slightly annoyed ADB even included this in First Heretic, only because I think everyone latches onto it and misinterprets it. The Ultramarines didn't have huge numbers because they ate up another legion - it's been canon since 2nd edition that they recruited from their own little empire of planets at a prodigious rate while suffering fewer casualties than some other legions.

If the Ultramarines did absorb one of the lost legions near the start of the Crusade, it wouldn't have had much impact on their numbers by the time of the Heresy. Assuming their tactics stay the same and they utilized the marines available as efficiently as possible (both of which are pretty much hallmarks of the Ultramarines), casualties are going to scale with legion size and the steady-state size is going to be determined by the recruitment rate, which wouldn't change just because of the absorbed legion.

Honestly I think the comment was a joke stemming from the hatred the Word Bearers felt for the Ultramarines, possibly with a kernel of truth.
(/rant)

I like the idea that one (mabye both) legion foresaw the heresy and knew they could do nothing to stop it, so they just up sticks and left without warning only returning in the imperiums greatest need I.E. when the emperor dies.

or somthing to that effect

1 IS THE RAINBOW MARINES!!!!

I think we can pick a couple of attributes to mark each that might work: Envy (named Leviathan) and Greed (named Mammon).

Mammon, like the other Primarchs, was tasked early on to bring a section of the galaxy into compliance. However, not being satisfied with simply turning the conquered worlds over to the Emperor, he kept them for himself. First it was simply an "administrative expedience". Mammon convinced the Emperor that Terra was so far away and regional control would be better served by someone much closer. The Emperor initially agreed and was happy with the foresight and helpfulness of his son.

As Mammon's conquests grew, he was emboldened to make changes in his conquered territories. What started with the conquered planets simply paying tribute eventually turned into a complete replacement of any reference to the "Emperor" with "Mammon".

Although most ignored this eccentric behavior, Leviathan watched and plotted. He was envious of Mammon's empire and desired one for his own. However, the Emperor was not impressed with Mammon's behavior and would not allow Leviathan the same lattitude of control. This enraged Leviathan who took his legion and fought against Mammon in order to acquire through direct force the thing his Father denied. The war was terrible and cost the two legions greatly. Eventually, Leviathan was successful and, in a final confrontation, Mammon was destroyed.

With great despair, the Emperor unleashed Russ and tasked him with Leviathan's destruction. Once complete, records of both primarchs were expunged and the worlds previously held by Mammon were virus bombed to ensure word of this never got out.


--------

The lessons learned from this would have absolutely applied to the Heresy.

clively wrote:I think we can pick a couple of attributes to mark each that might work: Envy (named Leviathan) and Greed (named Mammon).

Mammon, like the other Primarchs, was tasked early on to bring a section of the galaxy into compliance. However, not being satisfied with simply turning the conquered worlds over to the Emperor, he kept them for himself. First it was simply an "administrative expedience". Mammon convinced the Emperor that Terra was so far away and regional control would be better served by someone much closer. The Emperor initially agreed and was happy with the foresight and helpfulness of his son.

As Mammon's conquests grew, he was emboldened to make changes in his conquered territories. What started with the conquered planets simply paying tribute eventually turned into a complete replacement of any reference to the "Emperor" with "Mammon".

Although most ignored this eccentric behavior, Leviathan watched and plotted. He was envious of Mammon's empire and desired one for his own. However, the Emperor was not impressed with Mammon's behavior and would not allow Leviathan the same lattitude of control. This enraged Leviathan who took his legion and fought against Mammon in order to acquire through direct force the thing his Father denied. The war was terrible and cost the two legions greatly. Eventually, Leviathan was successful and, in a final confrontation, Mammon was destroyed.

With great despair, the Emperor unleashed Russ and tasked him with Leviathan's destruction. Once complete, records of both primarchs were expunged and the worlds previously held by Mammon were virus bombed to ensure word of this never got out.


--------

The lessons learned from this would have absolutely applied to the Heresy.

If this were the case then why were they called the forgotten and the purged and expunged from Imperial Record. Not even the traitor marines got this treatment and your scenario is hardly worse.

Grey Templar wrote:My personal view is that the Primarchs organized a rebellion against the Emperor which the Space Wolves were able to crush singlehandedly. Then, the Emperor covered up the rebellion by everyone taking the vow of silence.

Nice fanboy theory. No basis in reality, though.

SickSix wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Don't worry, it's not (unless I've missed something significant) even canonical that the Space Wolves were responsible for the purging of the missing legion/legions; it's just an inference based on the Space Wolves being noted as having fought Marines before the heresy began. This might have been one or both of the lost legions, or might equally well have been a disloyal/corrupted splinter of any of the legions, even their own. I doubt we'll ever know one way or the other.

I think to believe that is being very narrow minded. I mean they do just about everything but come out and say that Russ and his dogs have already destroyed another legion.

Can you provide a source for your claims? As English Assassin stated, the only piece of evidence is that Wolves have fought Marines before. Period. They could have been talking about their tussles with the Dark Angels for all we know. Russ was always eager to pick a fight with one of his brothers.

ArbitorIan wrote:The two lost legions are also referred to as 'The Lost' and 'The Cursed' on one of the HH books.

AFAIK, the current 'myth' is as follows.

- All 20 legions participated in the Crusade, so left Terra.
- Two Legions/Primarchs were lost and stricken from records BEFORE the Heresy started. Everyone is very sad about this.
- The Space Wolves allude to the fact that they've fought Astartes before the Heresy.
- The Ultramarines' ranks swelled soon after one of these Legions was disbanded.

IMO, this infers the folowing.

- At least one of the legions did something so bad that they were destroyed. Maybe the Primarch was a Chaos worshipping mutant? Maybe his corruption was much worse than even the Thousand Sons. ('The Cursed') On the other hand, maybe he hated the Imperium or rebelled. We know that Angron hated the Emperor at first, and resented him even after. I would guess that, if the Legion did something so bad as to be destroyed, they probably wouldn't join the Ultramarines too, so..

- If that legion was 'The Cursed', then could there be a Primarch that was merely 'Lost'. So, had left the galaxy, chose not to be part of the Imperium, or was simply dead by the time the Emperor found his landing point. If so, and his Legion (who would have been part of the Crusade, looking for him) hadn't actually done anything wrong, then it's likely they would have been 'folded' into another legion rather than allowed to carry on with no Primarch?

My main beef with the idea that they rebelled is that constantly in the Heresey books they go on and on about 'oh my goodness, oh my goodness, it's unpossible that an astartes would rebel....this is totally unpossible...' (yes I know unpossible isn't a word, thank you Robot Chicken). Even marines who were around from the start of the great crusade go on about it being 'unpossible', guys who IF either legion had gone rogue, would know about it, and would instead be saying 'not again, not again, not again'.

From what I have read in this thread, the most convinving story is this.

1) One primarch had some mental or character issues which were not of a military of political nature. Think about it like this, most primarchs ended up being heroes, what if one didn't? What if he ended up being some guy who just didn't have it in him (didn't think it was worth it, or maybe he didn't think being a conqueror was moral like it has been suggested above). Eventually he either leaves, gets killed because of carelessness, or kills himself.

This would have been very embarassing for the emperor, and upsetting for his brothers.

2) I doubt 11s legion's gene seed is corrupt, because the emperor would have noticed something like that. He fought with many of those legions on terra, while ending the terran age of strife. The corruption may have also been something really mundane, non-chaotic. Don't think of something that is infamous, but something that is disgusting and shameful. What if man spread a culture of perversion across his legion (drugs, massacres, rape, etc). One doesn't need to worship chaos to be evil. Maybe instead of being the heroe or anti-heroe that all the other primarchs were on their planet, this guy was a total evil bastard, and turned his legion into something similar.

So one primarch was by choice or by natuer not fit for the role in life that the emperor had given him. The other was just simply a scum bag who had gone so far that he needed to be killed.

Both stories are shameful enough to warrant cover ups. However, neither traitors nor loyalist legions would have any interest in talking about it.

Horus and friends would think of both chapters being below them, and the Loyalists would view them with shame.

AustonT wrote:I'm fairly certain the space sharks will turn out to be from the forgotten legion.

The Carcharodons' mystery-shrouded background has been written in such a way as to encourage our speculation - that they're loyalist World Eaters or Night Lords is another theory I've heard mooted - but I very much doubt Games Workshop will ever spoil the mystery by confirming things one way or another.

wizardofgore wrote:If the space wolves are the ones who destroyed another legion, what makes them so special?

The Emperor tailored each Legion to a fit a certain fighting style, the Space Wolves fighting style could have been seeded with the intention of fighting a worst case scenario of a Legion needing to be removed. This is helped by their very none standard (even by Great Crusade standards) fighting stlye.

It would be alot harder for another Legion to do it, due to the fact that both legions would know the coming plans of each other.

I tend to lean towards any theory that allows the continued existence of the two legions. This lets fans come up with their own plot lines. After all, until we get official GW storyline, its up to us to believe whatever sounds best to us. Here's a scenario I like...

One of the legions, possibly the 'lost' or 'forgotten' one, took its entire fleet into the warp, and didn't come out for thousands of years, and WAY of course. Warp drives having been blown, and all astropaths having been killed, they've done their best, setting up camp and establishing an empire similar to the UM's, but smaller. Continuing to fight in the Emprahs name, they await the day they can re-establish contact with the imperium....

40k cannon, not even close. But I like it, and that's what is important. If GW ever comes out with something official, I'll enjoy that storyline as well.

Malcador-Dorn dialogue kind of suggest that those legions were still out there by the time of heresy, but Imperium couldn't reach them.
So I guess that maybe something really bad happened during the great crusade which wasn't horrible as the heresy. So instead of declaring them traitors, imperium deleted their records and send them to exile (like current military dishonarable discharges). Also this explains why Horus said "glories that will never come to pass" since all of their achievements will be deleted. I know it's a wild theory but what do you think?

Cyrax wrote:Malcador-Dorn dialogue kind of suggest that those legions were still out there by the time of heresy, but Imperium couldn't reach them.

Where was this? Can you please cite the book or audio CD?

@SickSix
It's in the Mechanicum from the Horus Heresy series

Phiasco II wrote:I tend to lean towards any theory that allows the continued existence of the two legions. This lets fans come up with their own plot lines. After all, until we get official GW storyline, its up to us to believe whatever sounds best to us. Here's a scenario I like...

One of the legions, possibly the 'lost' or 'forgotten' one, took its entire fleet into the warp, and didn't come out for thousands of years, and WAY of course. Warp drives having been blown, and all astropaths having been killed, they've done their best, setting up camp and establishing an empire similar to the UM's, but smaller. Continuing to fight in the Emprahs name, they await the day they can re-establish contact with the imperium...

I thought of something similar myself, but instead of a local warp-pocket their Primarch led them on a foolhardy extragalactic conquest. Their mission was believed to be a failure. It was considered such a shameful way for a Legion to be lost that their records were purged and the legion became "The Forgotten".

Cyrax wrote:@SickSix
It's in the Mechanicum from the Horus Heresy series

Spoiler:

“No,” said Malcador. “Not alone. Never alone. The Emperor may not stand beside us,
but he has given us the means to fight this war and win it. Horus has three of his brother
legions with him, you have your Fists and thirteen others.”
“Would that it were fifteen,” mused Dorn.
“Do not even think it, my friend,” warned Malcador. “They are lost to us forever.”
“I know,” said Dorn, “and you are right. By any simple reckoning of numbers, the traitor
stands little chance of victory, but he was always the most cunning, the one most likely to
find a way where no others could.”

'Lost to us forever' is also a fancy way of saying 'dead'.