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Fury_00011 wrote:But why were they expunged while the others were deemed tratiors?

It seems that whatever they did would have to be worse.

The only fluffy reason I can think of is that the first two legions were dealt with while the Emperor was around. Hence, he personally expunged them from all records.

The traitors however, ended their shindig with the Emperor being comatose, so the High Lords, or Malcador, or whoever, just declared them renegade. After all, the Administration does not delete data, it mearly sequesters it! (see Titanicus!)

Pilau Rice wrote:I put the Emperors abduction of Angron down to him not being able to afford losing any more of his sons.

Eh, I think the Emperor teleporting Angron to his ship instead of himself teleporting down with a herd of Astartes is the best sign that the Emperor either wanted the Heresy or that he's a blithering idiot. 'Sorry about leaving your friends to die, but now I've got to run. Ciao!'

About the missing two: I'm pretty sure that GW is just putting these mentions of them into the HH books as teasers, in much the same way that an action-adventure movie will suddenly show a T&A shot that has nothing to do with the plot. So I'd hesitate to read too much into what is in the books. That said, if one or both of the two missing legions had actually rebelled against the Imperium, you would think that one of the traitor legions would have brought that up by now. If for no other reason than to discus the tactics they used and what went wrong with their plan.

PrometheusZero wrote:The only fluffy reason I can think of is that the first two legions were dealt with while the Emperor was around. Hence, he personally expunged them from all records.

The traitors however, ended their shindig with the Emperor being comatose, so the High Lords, or Malcador, or whoever, just declared them renegade. After all, the Administration does not delete data, it mearly sequesters it! (see Titanicus!)

More likely, I think it was the fact they couldn't cover the 9 Traitor Legions up and act like nothing happened. the 2 missing Legions were well and truly gone and couldn't come back to mass around. the Chaos Traitors are still muckin about and thats a hard thing to cover up.

Was warhammer fantasy not part of the 40k universe long ago? But they retconned it and seperated the 2 settings? I remember hearing somewhere that sigmar used to be a primarch. Landing in a twintailed comet (birthtube thing). Having superhuman strength etc.

Maybe Sigmar and the first great chaos lord in fantasy where primarchs. So gw first intended them to be primarchs and later they retconned the settings. Keeping the 2 lost primarch's lost just to keep them mysterious.

insaniak wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:The idea is, from what I understand, to purposefully leave a blank spot in the background so that you can have a place to fit your own DiY chapters.

That's been an oft'floated reason for it, but frankly, I've never been a fan of the idea. If the intention is for those Legions to still be running around, it doesn't make sense for them to be removed from records.

There is also the thing that it makes little sence seeing as 40K fans would still be able to create DIY chapters without the missing legions. this is proved by the massive amout of DIY chapters that have no link to them

BluntmanDC wrote:

There is also the thing that it makes little sence seeing as 40K fans would still be able to create DIY chapters without the missing legions. this is proved by the massive amout of DIY chapters that have no link to them

Yes there could have been DiY chapters. But you couldnt have DiY Legions. The ability to deal with legions is a whole different level of customizing your fluff then a chapter. Also I know I feel more attached to the glories of a legion as opposed to a chapter. If I were to make up my own astartes, I would rather make a glorious legion then a splinter chapter. Thats just me though. So I am glad that GW left it open.

PrometheusZero wrote:
The only fluffy reason I can think of is that the first two legions were dealt with while the Emperor was around. Hence, he personally expunged them from all records.

The traitors however, ended their shindig with the Emperor being comatose, so the High Lords, or Malcador, or whoever, just declared them renegade. After all, the Administration does not delete data, it mearly sequesters it! (see Titanicus!)

Quoted as my exact thoughts.

It is very unlikely that we will ever learn anything concrete about Legio II and XI - "the forgotten and the purged". Blank spaces in the background are a cheap and easy way to create suspense and a sense of mystery - both of which the setting needs more of not less. Unless the studio decide that filling-in those blanks would provide them with a way of selling more plastic soldiers, blank they will stay, with good reason.

Edit: Blood Angels-impugning typo.

PrometheusZero wrote:The only fluffy reason I can think of is that the first two legions were dealt with while the Emperor was around. Hence, he personally expunged them from all records.

The traitors however, ended their shindig with the Emperor being comatose, so the High Lords, or Malcador, or whoever, just declared them renegade. After all, the Administration does not delete data, it mearly sequesters it! (see Titanicus!)

Yeah this is what I think, as the Legions were the Emperors creation only he can decide whether or not the can be removed/expunged from records. When the Emperor got put into his tank and was still talking there were other more important things to organise rather than sorting out paperwork. So they got declared Traitoris Majoris, I guess there would also need to be a record kept because they are still in action whereas the 2 missing legions don't exist at all anymore.

daveNYC wrote:
Eh, I think the Emperor teleporting Angron to his ship instead of himself teleporting down with a herd of Astartes is the best sign that the Emperor either wanted the Heresy or that he's a blithering idiot. 'Sorry about leaving your friends to die, but now I've got to run. Ciao!'

I think it's one of his moments showing that he is still fairly human. After Angron killed some of his Custodes and pretty much said 'screw you' it was a 'look sonny, i'm not taking any of your bullspit, i'm your dad and you do as I say whether you like it or not'. And thus Angrons resentment towards the Emperor was born. Everything he pretty much did was two fingers up too him from then on.

What about when he was being depressed and murdering his own warriors directly afterwards?

Durza wrote:What about when he was being depressed and murdering his own warriors directly afterwards?

No that was fine, i mean, who cares what he does with his own troops ...

Possibly physically mutated Primarch which was loyal to the emperor fought the traitor primarch to the death a la story above?

That way the physical mutants' seed couldnt be used so the legion and its defects were expunged while the other deemed traitor.

Yes, but two other physical mutants were used without any action from the Emperor. Maybe the two legions decided to become peaceful, so the Emperor killed them.

I present the two missing legions: the Reasonable marines and the Angry Marines. I'll let you decide which was 'the lost' and which was 'the cursed'.

Im pretty sure one or two got annihilated by traitors

Much as I believe the mentions in the HH books are throw-away lines without much consideration behind them, it's still fun to try to piece things together.

Let's round up the clues, please let me know if I missed any or anything needs clarifying:

1. Both missing primarchs and their legions participated in the start of the crusade, and are expunged from history early on.

2. One is referred to as "The Lost" and the other "The Cursed"

3. The other primarchs knew and had some affinity for the missing primarchs

4. The fate of those legions is shrouded in mystery even to the other Astartes, hence the rumors/jokes about the Ultramarines absorbing part or all of a legion (which could actually be true, but it seems more like a joke or jealous rumor, as the Ultramarines legion always had a perfectly good fluff reason for being so large)

5. The Space Wolves in general and Russ in particular seem to have more knowledge than others, and seem confident in their abilities to fight other Astartes

6. The Thousand Sons and their actions are compared fairly explicitly to one of the missing legions

7. Any treason or Astartes-on-Astartes fighting regarding the two missing legions wouldn't be known to the majority of the other primarchs, as it is never mentioned even when planning their own Heresy, or during the fighting, or even after the Heresy by the traitor legions

8. The incident(s) had to be self-contained enough that the events could actually be kept secret, even if some of the hints leading up to it weren't - it's believable to say "they're gone, it was tragic, I can't tell you how, let's never speak of this again" rather than "well everyone saw/took part in these unprecedented dramatic events, but just try to forget it happened"


I think there are enough details here that a limited number of plausible scenarios can be constructed.

My take on it..

The lost, are the baddies.

They came into contact with chaos and turned, but weren't spread out at the moment and were contained and slaughtered.

The cursed..

My guess would be that the "curse" would be some genetic defect that didn't show itself at the start of the crusade (or was somehow triggered by events) and pretty much killed them off. As for the Primarch... no clue, may have been the first to actually go down with the curse, or ran off crying.

My personal take, referencing the above facts:

The missing primarchs were not outright heretical or treasonous, and did not worship chaos, probably not even unknowingly. These things would all have been noticed by the Emperor and/or their brothers, and would all be relevant information to the traitor primarchs before or during the heresy, yet this is never mentioned (7). The loss of both legions was also probably fairly rapid, self-contained, and easy to cover up (4,8), indicating a few possibilities in my mind - loss in battle, loss in the warp, or destruction/disbandment at the Emperor's secret orders.

The fate of the two legions could be intertwined, but I find it unlikely and there is no evidence that would support this to my knowledge. "The Lost" was probably truly lost in some way, and "The Cursed" probably did suffer some fate outside their own control. If The Lost was destroyed by The Cursed, I doubt such a conflict could easily be hidden, and I doubt the other primarchs would more or less universally mourn the loss of both brothers (3).

The Lost legion, or most of it, could have disappeared in the warp near the start of the crusade. Or they could have been destroyed or nearly destroyed in battle by a powerful xenos force. Either way the loss was sudden, and the primarch was definitely killed, or else the legion would have been rebuilt. Any survivors could possibly have been folded into the Ultramarines.

The Cursed are compared to the Thousand Sons (6), and the Space Wolves seem knowledgeable about killing other Astartes, and unflinchingly attack the Thousand Sons when ordered (5). It is also discussed that the flesh-change would have been grounds for destroying Magnus's legion,so perhaps there is a precedent. Perhaps The Cursed legion exhibited increasingly bad genetic mutations, possibly with uncontrolled psychic powers appearing, that was grounds for wiping the legion out. Again, I doubt there was any treason or obvious chaos worship, since this would be notable during the Heresy, and since chaos and the corrupting power of the warp seems to be completely unheard of before the Heresy starts. The Cursed legion probably spiraled out of control rapidly, and the Wolves were dispatched to quickly and quietly eradicate their existence.

None of this is really new stuff, I think other people have mentioned all of this. I'm just trying to be comprehensive. The only real twist I want to add is this: these events would be kept secret, and all records expunged, not because something naughty happened, but because the myth of invincibility was very important to the legions. Although the Astartes and especially the Primarchs have some knowledge of the missing legions, regular humans seem to have no idea at all that there were 2 other primarchs, or that legions could be destroyed. It's probably vitally important for the morale of the Imperium in general that the legions are always shown to be unstoppable, and only propaganda-like details of their exploits are publicized. Think of how hard it must be to sustain a war effort tasked with conquering the whole friggin' galaxy. The minute your armies stop steam-rollering their enemies and humanity's best warriors actually lose, public support could easily waver.

The missing two legions add up to the number 13... not to mention the Ultramarines, rumoured to have absorbed at least one of them, is the 13th legion.

Interesting, considering the fluff. If you read anything about the purge of the Knights Templar in European history. It makes it more so. After all, this is why Friday the 13th is considered less than lucky in the West.

It seems reasonable, from what we know that "the cursed" whether by their own actions or outside influences were subject to some form of mutation or instability. Extreme mutation has been almost inexplicably a crime, despite the acceptance of abhumans, and has this association with Chaos. The cursed very well could have been the first instance of space marines encountering chaos, after the primarchs were scattered, resulting is a drastic affliction of mutations. While I don't know if there is a true connection, the way "cursed" is used in the 40k setting most often are the cursed foundings... often tails of tragedy outside the control of those marines chapters. If "the cursed" were absorbed into the Ultramarines, or even just had their genetic material stored by the Mechanicum, the origins of the Cursed founding maybe tied to "the cursed.'

Dorn questions if the two missing brothers were infact warnings that went unheard.

Would that not imply they either took arms against the Imperium or were effected by Chaos?

Hadn't seen that, Daston. Quite right, that does indicate some warp corruption for sure.

I still maintain that the lost legions probably had no outward signs of chaos, and probably did not engage in open treason or warfare, or else it would be noted by the other traitors during the Heresy.

Could it be possible that the "warnings" Dorn referred to weren't warnings of Chaos corruption or outright heresy, but warnings about the potential for flaws inherent within the Primarchs themselves? Perhaps The Lost primarch went mad and killed himself, or otherwise abdicated his responsibilities through his own weakness and was lost to his legion. Perhaps The Cursed primarch was marked with a terrible affliction or mutation of his own that grew worse until he and possibly his whole legion had to be put down for deviancy? Basically just signs that the primarchs were not perfect and could be tainted, without overtly foreshadowing Horus's actions.

That Dorn quote is very interesting, but it would really take away from the story if the Horus Heresy had been preceded by one or two "little heresies" that were quashed and ignored. It has less dramatic impact if Horus, Magnus, Lorgar, et al are just doing exactly what two of their brothers did previously. The Heresy is no longer unprecedented and unimaginable, and everyone else, especially the Emperor, looks even stupider for doing absolutely nothing to uncover or avert it.

Despite the well thrashed out evidence that one legion was knacked by the Space Wolves, maybe they both fled to the eye of terror when they heard Matt Ward was writing their codex...

...or maybe one Primarch did do one and returned using the pseudonym Draigo later in life...

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
2. One is referred to as "The Lost" and the other "The Cursed"

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:"The Lost" was probably truly lost in some way, and "The Cursed" probably did suffer some fate outside their own control.

aka_mythos wrote:It seems reasonable, from what we know that "the cursed" whether by their own actions or outside influences were subject to some form of mutation or instability.

AHHHHHH, sorry about this. I posted a while ago that they were The Lost and The Cursed, but as EnglishAssassin rightly pointed out a few posts back, the actual line is 'the forgotten and the purged'.

Which doesn't suggest 'chaos' nearly as much - it's much more ambiguous. Although it very strongly supports the idea that one were purged by the Space Wolves. Presumably the forgotten were the ones folded into the Ultramarines. Unless there was a case of divided loyalty in one legion, leading to that legion being 'purged' of disloyal troops and the rest of the loyal ones being folded into the Ultramarines.

Now, to put more twists into this, I can't remember which novel this occurs in, but - in one HH book, Rogal Dorn is shown on Terra, staring at the statues of the Primarchs, and wishing that the two other Legions were still here. He may even talk about this with Malcador. How he could REALLY do with two more legions right now. Interestingly, at no point in this do we get the impression that Rogal Dorn thinks that there legions would side with the traitors. More to the point, if Dorn assumes that these two legions would be on the loyal side, it's very unlikely that either of these Legions turned 'traitor' before the Heresy - they must have been expunged for other reasons....

ArbitorIan wrote:
Now, to put more twists into this, I can't remember which novel this occurs in, but - in one HH book, Rogal Dorn is shown on Terra, staring at the statues of the Primarchs, and wishing that the two other Legions were still here. He may even talk about this with Malcador. How he could REALLY do with two more legions right now. Interestingly, at no point in this do we get the impression that Rogal Dorn thinks that there legions would side with the traitors. More to the point, if Dorn assumes that these two legions would be on the loyal side, it's very unlikely that either of these Legions turned 'traitor' before the Heresy - they must have been expunged for other reasons....

I know the one you are referring to Ian, but can't for the life of me remember, it might be Mecahanicum before Sigmismund is sent to Mars. I think Dorn says some along the lines 'if only it were 9' in reference to the legions sent too istvaan including the 2 lost legions and Malcador replies something like 'Don't even think of it, they are lost to us forever' which could mean that something bad happened and possibly Malcador knows about it. If it's true that the Wolves were released on one of the lost, then it must have been something serious for the Emperor to order it.

In the Lightning Tower we have this also about the statues:

The second and the eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their seperate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?

well, one of the primarch was said to possess the power of invisibility (though it doesn’t say if this is see through invisibility or if he was a blank) so the lost could all have the blank gene....got lost......and the emperor had no way of finding them (maybe they got lost in the warp or something) or they all just faded away and still roam the galaxy doing what ever invisible people do

I still think that the legion of the dammed might be one of the missing legion rather than some dead fire hawks. maybe they were banished by the emperor but their spirits lingered on (or the emperor just banished their mortal bodies) and tried to redeem themselves thus their curse is to spend eternity fighting to win back the emperors favour

Just a few thoughts ^^


that or one of the legions is the rainbow marines who refused to fight an so got nuked from orbit

Pilau Rice wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:
Now, to put more twists into this, I can't remember which novel this occurs in, but - in one HH book, Rogal Dorn is shown on Terra, staring at the statues of the Primarchs, and wishing that the two other Legions were still here. He may even talk about this with Malcador. How he could REALLY do with two more legions right now. Interestingly, at no point in this do we get the impression that Rogal Dorn thinks that there legions would side with the traitors. More to the point, if Dorn assumes that these two legions would be on the loyal side, it's very unlikely that either of these Legions turned 'traitor' before the Heresy - they must have been expunged for other reasons....

I know the one you are referring to Ian, but can't for the life of me remember, it might be Mecahanicum before Sigmismund is sent to Mars. I think Dorn says some along the lines 'if only it were 9' in reference to the legions sent too istvaan including the 2 lost legions and Malcador replies something like 'Don't even think of it, they are lost to us forever' which could mean that something bad happened and possibly Malcador knows about it. If it's true that the Wolves were released on one of the lost, then it must have been something serious for the Emperor to order it.

In the Lightning Tower we have this also about the statues:

The second and the eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their seperate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?

the lightning tower is where this is mentioned, and the primarch with invisibility is Corax which is mentioned in Raven's Flight

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:
the lightning tower is where this is mentioned, and the primarch with invisibility is Corax which is mentioned in Raven's Flight

The quote I posted was from Lightning Tower but the other conversation in regards to the 'wishing it were 9' doesn't appear to be. I'm looking at the Lightning Tower now and can't see it here.

They were expunged so that people could still have hope in the adeptus astartes and because there was no need for the knowledge and the heretical legions werent expunged because they are still a threat to the imperium

the first two legions were the first attempt by the chaos Gods to stop the emperor. Then the emperor stops it.

Then the loyal Primarch turned out to be nothing more then the Deceiver making this face.