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I'm running a list with the following;

HQ
Grand master
Crowe

Troops
10x Purifiers
10x Purifiers
10x Purifires

Fast Attack
3x Stormravens

Heavy Support
2x Dreadknights

All three Purifiers have a raven (one gets the Grand Master), the Knights get Scout (or Outflank), but what to do with Crowe.
Strategy 1: Give Crowe a raven, send them into the fight to die a Glorious Death.
Strategy 2: Reserve Crowe and hide him.
Strategy 3: ???????

Buy a rhino for one squad. Either the squad or Crowe can go in it (Crowe has to get in once the game has started obviously)

If you look at jv2's battle reports, you can see the various ways he makes use of Crowe (and in so doing destroys the rather pervasive myth that Crowe is useful only to make purifiers troops and is otherwise a liability).

Not sure what Artemo recommends. But he can be used as a coward hiding in the back field (in KP missions) or as speed bump or as melee support character.

Use the GM to make Crowe scoring and hide him in the backfield, safely holding an objective.

wuestenfux wrote:Not sure what Artemo recommends. But he can be used as a coward hiding in the back field (in KP missions) or as speed bump or as melee support character.

puma713 wrote:Use the GM to make Crowe scoring and hide him in the backfield, safely holding an objective.

No, no, no! That is not how you play him.

He is a tarpit and a counter-assault deterrent unit. He is also a character-killer. You need to play him aggressively against the opponent's uber-HQ or unit. Advance him behind a rhino (and out of LOS). Better yet, let him borrow a rhino. Assault is where he needs to be at.

My Crowe has taken out:

Nightbringer
Swarmlord
Draigo
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf mount
Belial
Daemon Prince
and others.

He's also killed a lot of hordes - including 28 ork boyz in 1 assault phase, wiping out entire units of kroots, killed grey hunter units, long fangs, crisis suits, dire avengers, howling banshees and a lot of other infantry.

And this is not just based on luck. He does this consistently if played correctly. Sure he dies most of the time, but him taking out a more expensive unit/character is like a kick in the gonads for your opponent.

jy2 wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Not sure what Artemo recommends. But he can be used as a coward hiding in the back field (in KP missions) or as speed bump or as melee support character.

puma713 wrote:Use the GM to make Crowe scoring and hide him in the backfield, safely holding an objective.

No, no, no! That is not how you play him.

That is a matter of opinion, I think. In a list with only 3 units of Purifiers, why would you want to keep 1 unit of Purifiers back to hold an objective? I would much rather hold 1 man back (one model that is superfluous - I could win the game with or without him) to claim an objective - one that could easily defend the objective because he is so good in close combat. Then send all of my Purifiers forward to claim other objectives.

While being aggressive with him is one way to play him, I don't think it is the only way. The OP was asking for suggestions - it doesn't mean he is going to take our advice.

But in the list in question with a rhino added (the suggestion that prompted the Crowe debate) you could make a venerable dreadnought scoring (instead of Crowe) and the dreadnought will be loitering around objectives anyway... so it really seems better to me to get Crowe stuck in.

There's nothing wrong with holding Crowe back, it just seems to me to be sub-optimal use of him.

Artemo wrote:But in the list in question with a rhino added (the suggestion that prompted the Crowe debate) you could make a venerable dreadnought scoring (instead of Crowe) and the dreadnought will be loitering around objectives anyway... so it really seems better to me to get Crowe stuck in.

There's nothing wrong with holding Crowe back, it just seems to me to be sub-optimal use of him.

I don't see any dreadnoughts in the list above. . .

puma713 wrote:Use the GM to make Crowe scoring and hide him in the backfield, safely holding an objective.

In fact, there is nothing wrong with this - its just an option to be considered.

puma713 wrote:

Artemo wrote:But in the list in question with a rhino added (the suggestion that prompted the Crowe debate) you could make a venerable dreadnought scoring (instead of Crowe) and the dreadnought will be loitering around objectives anyway... so it really seems better to me to get Crowe stuck in.

There's nothing wrong with holding Crowe back, it just seems to me to be sub-optimal use of him.

I don't see any dreadnoughts in the list above. . .

Touche.

I think I got my lists threads confused, sorry.

I do think Crowe cowering at the back is sub-optimal though (yes, it's an option and not a terrible one but it's not the best use of him). His ability to remove any model in base contact when he dies (regardless of wounds or saves) is far more likely to be useful if he's used aggressively.

You could use grand strategy to give Crowe scout then outflank him into enemy infantry can't you? As others have stated Crowe is rather amazing in cc and as an HQ killer. In the ard boyz prelims I played, Crowe hugged the back of a rhino the whole game and never took a wound. No one wastes to get into cc with me so he never got to work his magic, but no one got the point for him either.

jy2 wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Not sure what Artemo recommends. But he can be used as a coward hiding in the back field (in KP missions) or as speed bump or as melee support character.

puma713 wrote:Use the GM to make Crowe scoring and hide him in the backfield, safely holding an objective.

No, no, no! That is not how you play him.

He is a tarpit and a counter-assault deterrent unit. He is also a character-killer. You need to play him aggressively against the opponent's uber-HQ or unit. Advance him behind a rhino (and out of LOS). Better yet, let him borrow a rhino. Assault is where he needs to be at.

My Crowe has taken out:

Nightbringer
Swarmlord
Draigo
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf mount
Belial
Daemon Prince
and others.

He's also killed a lot of hordes - including 28 ork boyz in 1 assault phase, wiping out entire units of kroots, killed grey hunter units, long fangs, crisis suits, dire avengers, howling banshees and a lot of other infantry.And this is not just based on luck. He does this consistently if played correctly. Sure he dies most of the time, but him taking out a more expensive unit/character is like a kick in the gonads for your opponent.

I have the book and I see his rules for sword master, but how exactly does that work? I mean how does 28 ork boyz get into base contact with Crowe's one little base? Sorry im new to the rules btw.

He used cleansing flame and blade storm(I think is the name) basically charged in used cleansing flame then did an attack against everything in base contact.

I usually have Crowe ride in a Landraider and assault something tasty for him to eat.

at Ard Boyz he ate a couple of Wytch Squads, a very large Beastpack, and some Warriors over the course of the 3 games. yes, I played DE every single round

l0k1 wrote:He used cleansing flame and blade storm(I think is the name) basically charged in used cleansing flame then did an attack against everything in base contact.

Probably Cleansing Flame and Blade Defend. Send out Cleansing Flame, then count on his re-rollable 2+/4++ to keep him healthy. When it is time to finish them off (preferably in their assault), Cleansing Flame again or whatever the strike is that hits D3 + 1 models.

puma713 wrote:

l0k1 wrote:He used cleansing flame and blade storm(I think is the name) basically charged in used cleansing flame then did an attack against everything in base contact.

Probably Cleansing Flame and Blade Defend. Send out Cleansing Flame, then count on his re-rollable 2+/4++ to keep him healthy. When it is time to finish them off (preferably in their assault), Cleansing Flame again or whatever the strike is that hits D3 + 1 models.

The way cleansing flame is worded I dont think you can use it if you're already locked in combat. I'm also pretty sure the d3 + 1 attacks have to be made at an independent character it monstrous creature. Dont have my dex in front of me though.

Cleansing fire can be used every round of combat

at the start of a round of a combat so both in your turn and your opponents turn.

Its used at the beginning of the Assault Phase before blows are struck. It can be used during the initial and subsequent assault phases after assault moves have been made. In the case of an ongoing assault, there are no assault moves, but the power can still be used.

Interesting. The 'after assault moves have been made' part is what made me question that. Awesome to know

Hiding is a horrible tactic with any unit. Not utilizing everything in your list is just wasting points. Just choose your fights with him. Sacrifice him to a horde, find a character to take out or a monstrous creature (nid players hate him, trust me I'm one).

Here is an example that was used on me. I had a unit of 30 hormagaunts. My opponent was sure he could kill enough of my unit to trounce me in combat. So he seperated crowe in his movement and assaulted me with both crowe and the purifiers (didn't think he needed to seperate, but ok) he did cleaning flame twice at the same time. I had 4 guys left at Initiative 5...the halberds killed the rest.

Had to edit this... friend that played that tactic just called... didn't know crowe wasn't an indie. Still, he can be used as a good counter attack in the same way.

One thing bothered me in Ray Age's original post. Why would you give purifiers scout/outflank when they are so slow? stormravens arn't dedicated.
re-rolling 1's is invaluable for purifiers.

Garukadon wrote:
I have the book and I see his rules for sword master, but how exactly does that work? I mean how does 28 ork boyz get into base contact with Crowe's one little base? Sorry im new to the rules btw.

The way it works is this. Crowe assaults a unit of 30 ork boyz. I don't attack. Instead, I opt to Parry and cast Cleansing Flame. Statistically, I should wound 15. I wound 14. Statistically, with 6+ saves, he should have made 2 out of 14. He made none. Then he attacks and I re-roll all saves. Then we do combat resolution. He needs to take another 14 saves (being fearless still). Again he should have made 2 out of 14 saves. And once again, he made none. So he lost 14 to CF and then another 14 to No Retreat fearless saves. The average should have been 24 out of 30 ork boyz dead. He lost 28, which was slightly better than average.

And BTW, Cleansing Flame works on all units in combat with Crowe or the purifier unit, not just those in base. So 1 nasty application of it is to multi-charge several units with 1 unit of purifiers.


@OP:

What you have is an "fire" army, which is basically an assault-based army. It is actually a pretty good one because you have the mobility (stormravens) to get your assault units where you need them and quickly too. However, for it to work successfully, all must be able to contribute. The problem with the current list is that it is not optimized. Hence, there are inefficiencies (i.e. sitting Crowe on your home objective). Crowe is just too good to leave behind. He has a very particular role in the army, and that is not to hide and sit on an objective (not even sure if Grand Strategy will let him do that). If you want to do that, you are playing at sub-optimal efficiency. Basically, you are handicapping yourself.

Artemo put up 2 great solutions. First, get a rhino for one of your purifier squads and put Crowe in it. Secondly, swap out 1 dreadknight (or maybe even both) for a psyfleman vendread. Great AT support and if you need, he could be a scoring unit. A vendread sitting in cover on your home objective is one damn resilient scoring unit.

imukuni wrote:Hiding is a horrible tactic with any unit. Not utilizing everything in your list is just wasting points.

Really? Objective-holding Grots would disagree with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jy2 wrote:

What you have is an "fire" army, which is basically an assault-based army. It is actually a pretty good one because you have the mobility (stormravens) to get your assault units where you need them and quickly too. However, for it to work successfully, all must be able to contribute.

jy2, not everyone plays the exact same way. Or even should. The reason that Tony Kopach won Adepticon and NOVA is because he played an unoptimized list, but did it well. He didn't play a list that everyone was touting. Njal? 1 Thunderwolf? 3 Wolf Guard? Fenrissian Wolves?. To say that someone is playing a list poorly because they don't play it the way you do is myopic, at best. Some people play completely differently and do so well. You have your opinions and others have theirs. To say that others are playing incorrectly and that he shouldn't play a certain way because of that is pretty close-minded, imo. In fact, more often than not, it is the things that I don't expect that throw me off guard. Things that throw me off guard cause me to make mistakes. And 40K is about mistakes. Whoever makes the least wins.

To say that Crowe is tough in close combat is correct. To say that him holding an objective in a building in the back of the field is sub-optimal is an opinion, not a fact. 150 point Scoring Unit that is nearly impossible to kill (hidden, or otherwise) is worth it, to me, in an unoptimized list.

jy2 wrote:The problem with the current list is that it is not optimized. Hence, there are inefficiencies (i.e. sitting Crowe on your home objective). Crowe is just too good to leave behind. He has a very particular role in the army, and that is not to hide and sit on an objective (not even sure if Grand Strategy will let him do that). If you want to do that, you are playing at sub-optimal efficiency. Basically, you are handicapping yourself.

See above. Your opinion is that he is playing at sub-optimal efficiency. He is playing sub-optimally in your playstyle. Your playstyle may not be his playstyle. Again, you probably would have told Tony Kopach that his Wolf list was sub-optimal. In fact, many did. Sounds like you've been drinking the Kool-Aid that people are serving up in your batreps, making you think that your way is the way. Maybe you're not meaning to sound that way, but it comes off a little condescending.

The point of my original post was a suggestion. It was obviously not a suggestion for every situation, hardly even every game. In 'ard Boyz, obviously this tactic wouldn't be employed because only 1 of 3 games were objective-based. If my opponent had 3 units of Outflanking Genestealers and a unit of Ymgarls, I probably would not do it. The point was to give suggestions, not to eliminate them.

jy2 wrote:Artemo put up 2 great solutions. First, get a rhino for one of your purifier squads and put Crowe in it. Secondly, swap out 1 dreadknight (or maybe even both) for a psyfleman vendread. Great AT support and if you need, he could be a scoring unit. A vendread sitting in cover on your home objective is one damn resilient scoring unit.

Right, OP. Play the same net list that everyone is trying. Don't try anything out of the box. In fact, save yourself the trouble and trade your Stormravens for 5 Dreadnoughts before everyone else tells you to.


He wasn't asking for suggestions about changing the list. He was asking for tactics in playing the list he wanted to play.

puma713 wrote:
jy2, not everyone plays the exact same way. Or even should. The reason that Tony Kopach won Adepticon and NOVA is because he played an unoptimized list, but did it well. He didn't play a list that everyone was touting. Njal? 1 Thunderwolf? 3 Wolf Guard? Fenrissian Wolves?. To say that someone is playing a list poorly because they don't play it the way you do is myopic, at best. Some people play completely differently and do so well. You have your opinions and others have theirs. To say that others are playing incorrectly and that he shouldn't play a certain way because of that is pretty close-minded, imo. In fact, more often than not, it is the things that I don't expect that throw me off guard. Things that throw me off guard cause me to make mistakes. And 40K is about mistakes. Whoever makes the least wins.

Sure Tony brought a rather unusual Space Wolf army to both tournies, but don't think for a second that hist list wasn't optimized. Njal is an under-rated and very synergistic SW HQ (yes, even at 200pts+), single thunderwolves are a great target saturation "distraction" unit, you don't really need to run that many wolf guards (I only usually run 3 WG's myself) and fenrisian wolves, well, I don't have enough experience with them to comment much about them. And on top of that, Tony is an excellent and very tactical player who will probably do well with almost any list he tries.

I am just describing the nature of the OP's list. I am in no ways saying that he has to play it a certain way. Just like if you see an ork battlewagon army, you can tell that it is a "fire" army (or an assault army). Or if you see a IG gunline army, one can only assume it is mainly an "earth" army (or a shooty army). That is not the same as saying his orks need to assault or his IG needs to stay put and shoot. He can play it however he likes. However, if he cares anything at all about winning (and maybe he doesn't, I don't know), then he will definitely take advantage of the strengths of his army.

And why can't you tell someone when you think he/she is playing something wrong? If he posts here, I can only assume he wants to improve his game and will give the best advice I possibly can. I will only give advice on strategies which I think will work for his army. Whether he follows it or not is his perogative. Sure he can hide his HQ on an objective, but IMO (yes it is only my opinion) that is not a good way to play him. You gave your opinion on how to play Crowe. I gave mine. He can decided for himself how he wants to play it.

To say that Crowe is tough in close combat is correct. To say that him holding an objective in a building in the back of the field is sub-optimal is an opinion, not a fact. 150 point Scoring Unit that is nearly impossible to kill (hidden, or otherwise) is worth it, to me, in an unoptimized list.

You have your opinion. I have mine. It's just that I disagree with yours. Hence, I'm voicing my opinion gathered from my own experience.

See above. Your opinion is that he is playing at sub-optimal efficiency. He is playing sub-optimally in your playstyle. Your playstyle may not be his playstyle. Again, you probably would have told Tony Kopach that his Wolf list was sub-optimal. In fact, many did. Sounds like you've been drinking the Kool-Aid that people are serving up in your batreps, making you think that your way is the way. Maybe you're not meaning to sound that way, but it comes off a little condescending.

Whatever playstyle he wants to play, if he wants to play it successfully, he needs each and every unit to contribute. You may say sitting on an objective is contributing, but I'm saying he (Crowe) can do so much more than that. If you're not incorporating him into the offense, then you are not making full use of his abilities. It's the same thing I would say if I saw a devastator/long fang squad with 2 missile launchers and 2 plasma cannons. That is just not an efficient way to run devastators. Of course it is only my opinion, but that is the best possible advice I can give.

And no, I don't think Tony's list was sub-optimal. In fact, I think it was very well thought out. The army synergizes well. It's just something I never really thought of.

I'm sorry if I sound off as condescending, but I will not apologize for giving what I believe is good advice. Whether you agree or not, whether you follow it or not, is something completely out of my control. Do with it as you will.

The point of my original post was a suggestion. It was obviously not a suggestion for every situation, hardly even every game. In 'ard Boyz, obviously this tactic wouldn't be employed because only 1 of 3 games were objective-based. If my opponent had 3 units of Outflanking Genestealers and a unit of Ymgarls, I probably would not do it. The point was to give suggestions, not to eliminate them.

And I'm giving a counter-suggestion. No offense, but if I don't agree with the advise of another poster here, I will speak my mind as I'm sure you would yours.

Right, OP. Play the same net list that everyone is trying. Don't try anything out of the box. In fact, save yourself the trouble and trade your Stormravens for 5 Dreadnoughts before everyone else tells you to.

Now who's generalizing here? Have I ever said anything about taking 3-5 dreads? Have I said anything about breaking up his purifiers into 6 squads of 5 with psycannons instead? Have I said anything about his purifier list needing to be like list #XYZ?

I just happened to agree with Artemo that he could make his army better with just 2 minor changes. And when I say better, I mean it will improve the overall synergy of his list with just a minimal amount of change.

Well Obviously Crowe is meant to DoG a LR full of assault termies + Calgar than remove them all from play

Play how you want, and yes Crowe is a character killer, and i guess he could be a really interesting scoring unit

Heroic Sacrifice can only be used in the assault phase.

Sorry, no DoG removing of Landraiders for you.

jy2 wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Not sure what Artemo recommends. But he can be used as a coward hiding in the back field (in KP missions) or as speed bump or as melee support character.

puma713 wrote:Use the GM to make Crowe scoring and hide him in the backfield, safely holding an objective.

No, no, no! That is not how you play him.

He is a tarpit and a counter-assault deterrent unit. He is also a character-killer. You need to play him aggressively against the opponent's uber-HQ or unit. Advance him behind a rhino (and out of LOS). Better yet, let him borrow a rhino. Assault is where he needs to be at.

My Crowe has taken out:

Nightbringer
Swarmlord
Draigo
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf mount
Belial
Daemon Prince
and others.

Explain a couple things to me:

1) How is he a tarpit? You get to re-roll a 4+ invo, which gives you a 75% chance to make the save, and he has two wounds. Any decent combat unit with more than a handful of attacks is going to get through that pretty easy. A power fist will still instakill him.

2) How are you killing Draigo and Nightbringer? Heroic sacrifice? All that really means is that your enemy wasn't familiar enough with his rules (because you didn't tell him) to know to use a different model to kill him.

Crowe is a tarpit because of his rerollable saves. a rerollable 4+ is still pretty good against Powerfists, especially since PFs rarely get more then 1 wound through.

His 2+ armor means non-power attacks don't stand a chance, which is basically the things he is supposed to tarpit.

Crowe doesn't Tarpit things like Dreadnoughts or Terminators. he tarpits things like Boyz, Beastpacks, Gaunts, and Wytchs.


Cleansing Flame also allows him to potentially win combat, especially against squishy things like orks and Eldar.


and yeah, Crowe is excellent at killing ICs like the Nightbringer. you are deliberatly trying to get Crowe killed in this instance, which is made easier if you have an assault transport for Crowe(and no, this is NOT a waste of a transport. Crowe is 150 pts, the Nightbringer or whatever is alot more expensive, bigger, and meaner then he is) if you assault them, they have no choice but to swing at him. then they kill him, or possably your Rapier Strike kills them first, and he does Heroic Sacrifice.

Grey Templar wrote:Crowe is a tarpit because of his rerollable saves. a rerollable 4+ is still pretty good against Powerfists, especially since PFs rarely get more then 1 wound through.

Yay, you can tarpit a basic Tac squad? Against any combat units that matter besides Orks he wouldn't be a tarpit at all. And he's not really tarpitting Orks, they're just especially susceptible to cleansing flame.

You're not gonna tarpit Wyches, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Their sergeant, whatever it's called, will kill you just fine. You're not even going to do a great job killing the wyches, between the 4+ invo and a likely FNP save.

Yay.....you can tar pit gaunts. Or are they tar pitting you? C'mon man.

sure, a power weapon that doesn't ID me and needs 4s to wound. I fought nothing but DE at Ard Boyz(3 very nasty list) and Crowe died once, because he rolled box cars for Cleansing Flame. He killed around 4 Wytch squads and a very large and scary beast pack.

you also forget that Cleansing Flame can snipe upgrades. Alot of power weapons died before even swinging so he was perfectly safe.