Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
1) How is he a tarpit? You get to re-roll a 4+ invo, which gives you a 75% chance to make the save, and he has two wounds. Any decent combat unit with more than a handful of attacks is going to get through that pretty easy. A power fist will still instakill him.

He is a tarpit unit, but don't think for a second he will tarpit any and every unit. If you think he will tarpit a unit of assault terminators, bloodcrushers, bonesword tyranid warriors, incubi, or any power-weapon-heavy unit, you will just get him killed for nothing. What he will tarpit are medium assault units and hordes. And not only will he tarpit them, he can actually beat them thanks to Cleansing Flame. He is more than just a tarpit to these type of units....he is an actual threat.

Crowe is not an end-all, be-all type of HQ. He's a good HQ with a particular role to play. Play his role and he will surprise you with his effectiveness. Play counter to his role and he will die in vain. You have to use him properly in order to achieve results with him. Oh, and don't forget about the fact that he lets you take purifier troops. I'm sure that counts for something.

2) How are you killing Draigo and Nightbringer? Heroic sacrifice? All that really means is that your enemy wasn't familiar enough with his rules (because you didn't tell him) to know to use a different model to kill him.

It's more than that. Units such as the Nightbringer and Draigo are meant to be played aggressively. If you're hiding them in fear of them dying, then thats 275/360pts of a unit wasted. Crowe is a threat to these type of units. More important than the fact that he can kill them easily is that he will change the way your opponent plays (if he is at all familiar with Crowe), thus taking him/her out of their "comfort zone". They need to account for Crowe and will make choices that they would not make normally in order to preserve their HQ.

And FYI, I always explain to my opponent what Crowe can do - that he is a character-killer and to keep their HQ's away. I think it is unsporting of me not to do so, and I don't like to "ambush" my opponent with these types of special rules. However, hearing it and experiencing it are 2 different things. Even after telling them, many people still do not realize how dangerous Crowe is until he takes out the HQ that I warned them about in the first place.

jy2 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
1) How is he a tarpit? You get to re-roll a 4+ invo, which gives you a 75% chance to make the save, and he has two wounds. Any decent combat unit with more than a handful of attacks is going to get through that pretty easy. A power fist will still instakill him.

He is a tarpit unit, but don't think for a second he will tarpit any and every unit. If you think he will tarpit a unit of assault terminators, bloodcrushers, bonesword tyranid warriors, incubi, or any power-weapon-heavy unit, you will just get him killed for nothing. What he will tarpit are medium assault units and hordes. And not only will he tarpit them, he can actually beat them thanks to Cleansing Flame. He is more than just a tarpit to these type of units....he is an actual threat.

I guess I'm just not in the market for something to tarpit gaunt squads and BT crusdaer squads for me. They don't need tarpitting. So great, Crowe is talented at a job no one is hiring for.

2) How are you killing Draigo and Nightbringer? Heroic sacrifice? All that really means is that your enemy wasn't familiar enough with his rules (because you didn't tell him) to know to use a different model to kill him.

It's more than that. Units such as the Nightbringer and Draigo are meant to be played aggressively. If you're hiding them in fear of them dying, then thats 275/360pts of a unit wasted. Crowe is a threat to these type of units. More important than the fact that he can kill them easily is that he will change the way your opponent plays (if he is at all familiar with Crowe), thus taking him/her out of their "comfort zone". They need to account for Crowe and will make choices that they would not make normally in order to preserve their HQ.

And FYI, I always explain to my opponent what Crowe can do - that he is a character-killer and to keep their HQ's away. I think it is unsporting of me not to do so, and I don't like to "ambush" my opponent with these types of special rules. However, hearing it and experiencing it are 2 different things. Even after telling them, many people still do not realize how dangerous Crowe is until he takes out the HQ that I warned them about in the first place.

I can tell you as a Draigo player, I don't fear Crowe, not at all. It's not like I go running Draigo off for Mano-e-Mano combat, not like you are forced to do with Crowe. Perfectly happy to let one of the paladins take him out.

Nightbringer, on the other hand......ok, fine he's great for that. But it's not like Nightbringer is a competitive choice, even if Necrons at large were.

actually, GKs need to tarpit those larger units of basic troops.

it keeps them from getting swarmed and overwhealmed which is the weakness of MEQs typically. Crowe doesn't care how outnumbered he is as he is highily unlikely to take any wounds from these units and cleansing flame can slowly eat them up.

this means 1 less unit for the rest of the purifiers to take on.

Well, I don't have any need to tarpit those "larger units of basic troops." A large single purifier, paladin, or even simple GKT squad is going to chew through large swath of basic BT troops, which is unfortunate, actually from a balance perspective.

I suppose you do need something to pull off those large squads of gaunts, as they are effectively bubble wrap, but I just don't see why you need Crowe for that -- just about any old unit, or half a unit (combat squads) could serve the purpose. It sounds like people are using crowe for that because he's not good for much else.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
I can tell you as a Draigo player, I don't fear Crowe, not at all. It's not like I go running Draigo off for Mano-e-Mano combat, not like you are forced to do with Crowe. Perfectly happy to let one of the paladins take him out.

You do realize that he only needs to be in B2B with the guy he wants to erase when he [Crowe] dies, right?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
I can tell you as a Draigo player, I don't fear Crowe, not at all. It's not like I go running Draigo off for Mano-e-Mano combat, not like you are forced to do with Crowe. Perfectly happy to let one of the paladins take him out.

You do realize that he only needs to be in B2B with the guy he wants to erase when he [Crowe] dies, right?

And pass a Psychic Test (that doesn't get hooded) and hit. It is easy to wrap a single model without getting your IC into combat, especially if you disembark, move and space carefully.

Him taking out a Swarmlord is suprising, though. Rapier Strike or Heroic Sacrifice, I imagine. Even then, he'd need to Rend or pass an above-average requisite for passing Heroic Sacrifice on 3D6.

Not that it can't be done, but surprising.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
I can tell you as a Draigo player, I don't fear Crowe, not at all. It's not like I go running Draigo off for Mano-e-Mano combat, not like you are forced to do with Crowe. Perfectly happy to let one of the paladins take him out.

You do realize that he only needs to be in B2B with the guy he wants to erase when he [Crowe] dies, right?

I'm really not worried about it. Either I'll be in a position to charge him first (because I'm coming out of a LR or SR), or I'm just going to shoot the bastard.

The same power, matter of fact, is much more interesting on a lowly Brotherhood Champion. Crow is just a crappy BroChamp that can't even share his chaplain like powers with a squad, which is the whole point. Yay, he has cleansing flame. That's kinda what I hired the normal purifiers for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
I can tell you as a Draigo player, I don't fear Crowe, not at all. It's not like I go running Draigo off for Mano-e-Mano combat, not like you are forced to do with Crowe. Perfectly happy to let one of the paladins take him out.

You do realize that he only needs to be in B2B with the guy he wants to erase when he [Crowe] dies, right?

And pass a Psychic Test (that doesn't get hooded) and hit. It is easy to wrap a single model without getting your IC into combat, especially if you disembark, move and space carefully.

Him taking out a Swarmlord is suprising, though. Rapier Strike or Heroic Sacrifice, I imagine. Even then, he'd need to Rend or pass an above-average requisite for passing Heroic Sacrifice on 3D6.

Not that it can't be done, but surprising.

Yes, exactly. Really, when you think about it, a normal BroChamp has a better chance to take out the swarmlord. Or any GK with a hammer, for that matter. Roll a 3d6, make your test, poof! At least you get several swing, not 1. Better yet, use a BroBanner.

Crowe is Ld10. guess what the average roll on 3D6 is?

yeah, its less likely then it is normally but it shouldn't be surprising when it happens. you are basically looking at a 40% chance of removing any Nid creature you want, assuming that Crowe actually dies. you could roll 4+ saves like its going out of style.

outside of SitW, Crowe has a 60% chance of removing things outright. and he is pretty cheap for this ability compared to other HQs.

Grey Templar wrote:Crowe is Ld10. guess what the average roll on 3D6 is?

Every GK HQ is Ld 10. Why are you bothering to mention this?

yeah, its less likely then it is normally but it shouldn't be surprising when it happens. you are basically looking at a 40% chance of removing any Nid creature you want, assuming that Crowe actually dies. you could roll 4+ saves like its going out of style.

outside of SitW, Crowe has a 60% chance of removing things outright. and he is pretty cheap for this ability compared to other HQs.

A normal BroChamp, who rolls gets to re-roll hits on the charge and re-roll wounds all the time, has an 88.9% chance to hit any particular attack, and a 30.6% chance to wound. If you assume an avg of 3 attacks (avg d3 + charge), you have 61.4% chance to wound at least once. He will then kill the thing 50% of the time, for a total kill rate of 30.7%. Except he doesn't have to die, he's doing it at Init 10 before the beast gets any swings, and he costs 2/3 as much as Crowe. Nevermind that realistically, the squad you put him with, which gets to re-roll all it's hits, like it should, is just going to murder the beast anyway. If the squad in question is some GKT with a banner, then the murder is basically guaranteed.

Not that I'm saying the BroChamp is great. What I'm saying is that Crowe is a sucky, expensive BroChamp, that doesn't even get to do what a BroChamp is supposed to do -- buff a squad.

Instead, you're talking about how awesome he is, because he can do what any basic purifier unit can -- light a bunch of Orks and Gaunts on fire. Ok.......?

@sir_prometheus: A normal Brotherhood Champion has no place in a competitive list, so that scenario you pointed out is fairly moot. Unless you are arguing for the awesomeness of Brotherhood champions in your playtesting. In which case I will gladly like to hear about it.
Crowe enables purifiers to be taken as troops, so thinking of ways to use him is much better than sitting him in the corner and playing at a 150 point handicap. If you can use him to tarpit any number of troop units or contest a mid-field objective then at least you are bringing his points to bear.

Grey Templar wrote:Crowe is Ld10. guess what the average roll on 3D6 is?

10.5. Which is a failure.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dok wrote:
Crowe enables purifiers to be taken as troops, so thinking of ways to use him is much better than sitting him in the corner and playing at a 150 point handicap. If you can use him to tarpit any number of troop units or contest a mid-field objective then at least you are bringing his points to bear.

Again with the inability to see past basic strategy. If you're not using a 150 point model to hold the objective that we're talking about in his list, what are you using? In the list above, you're going to be using something much more expensive than 150 point model that is going to trade his KP or VP equally, to a smart player. If we're not talking about objectives, then what is the point of your comment, because no one would simply hold him back, unless they were using the tactic we're talking about.

What? My post was attempting to champion actually using Crowe for a purpose as opposed to letting him sit in the corner as I've seen people do.

Dok wrote:@sir_prometheus: A normal Brotherhood Champion has no place in a competitive list, so that scenario you pointed out is fairly moot.

Logic fail: I can't point how bad a unit is, by showing how it compares badly to a model many people also consider bad? If BroChamp = Bad, and I just showed that Crowe<BroChamp, how does mean that Crowe ></>< Bad?

Dok wrote:Unless you are arguing for the awesomeness of Brotherhood champions in your playtesting. In which case I will gladly like to hear about it.

Reading Comprehension fail:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Not that I'm saying the BroChamp is great.

All that is besides the fact that the BroChamp isn't actually all that bad, certainly not as bad as everyone says he is. He really only works with a big squad of purifiers or GKT charging out of a LR, but he actually works pretty well in that circumstance. I don't particularly want to get in a debate about BroChamps, though.

Crowe enables purifiers to be taken as troops, so thinking of ways to use him is much better than sitting him in the corner and playing at a 150 point handicap. If you can use him to tarpit any number of troop units or contest a mid-field objective then at least you are bringing his points to bear.

Ok, sure. But my main point is that you just shouldn't do it. The Crowe/pruifier army is bad. Crowe is part of it, that you're using expensive specialists as massed generalists is most of it. I just wrote a post about it here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/391967.page#top

Brotherhood champions arn't bad. its just that every other HQ has something more to offer.

Crowe has Purifiers as troops for only a few points more and nearly the same abilities.

Librarians have all their psychic powers.

Grandmasters have Grand Strategy.

Draigo has Grand Strategy + troop paladins.

Mordrak has Grand Strategy and a 1st turn no scatter Deep Strike unit, doesn't have to be Ghost Knights.

Grey Templar wrote:
Crowe has Purifiers as troops for only a few points more and nearly the same abilities.
.

Well, that's just the thing. He doesn't, does he? Main power of a BroChamp is it acts as a chaplain. Crowe has that power, but can't use it, cuz he can't join a squad. Makes an utter mockery of the situation.

Who cares, Crowe shouldn't be used like a Brotherhood champion. You use him like Crowe.

and I was referring to his combat stances and heroic sacrifice.

Thinking about making a list with Crowe. This has been quite informative thanks!

Seeing as to how Crowe lists have performed in tournies all across the world i would say that stating that "crowe lists suck" is a wee bit ignorant. Thats like saying mech eldar under the older rules used to suck.

Its been tried and tested, and im sure not only by "stupid lazy players that doesnt know gak" what is basically what you're saying.

Of course you can tailor an army that beats a crowe list with ease, just as you could tailor an army to combat YOUR tailored anti-crowe list with ease. There's always theoretical battle scenarios you point out, and do as much mathhammer as you feel the need for.

Fact still stands that Crowe purifier psyfiledread armies can tackle pretty much anything and has done so on many occasions.

I have to agree with Tjolle79 and others that the Crowe/Purifier build is pretty powerful. I have played against it myself and found even with a low model count they are hard to deal with using conventional armies. I run Henchmen myself and even though I run a gunline style list I still really struggle to deal with everything that they throw at you. 2 psycannons on 5 men squads multiplied by 6 puts the hurt on. Ven dreads are just a pain to deal with (I should know, I use 3) and provide the kind of long range fire support that Purifiers need.

You can lead a mule to water, but you can't make him drink.

@Sir_Prometheus:

It's obvious your mind is made up and no amount of debate will sway it 1 iota. That's fine. I've said my part. Many here have also voiced theirs. If you don't want to accept anyone else's observations/opinions, you can keep on believing that a Crowe-purifier build "sucks" and are "for newbies only". Seems like the only way you will believe otherwise is to actually play against a Crowe-purifier-dread run by a general who actually knows how to play it.

Before I sign off, I'll leave you with some of my Crowe-Purifer battle reports. You can judge for yourself whether they are competitive or not.


Purifiers vs Mechguards
Purifiers vs Battlewagon Orks
Purifiers vs SabrX's Witch Hunters
Purifiers vs Janthkin's Tyranids
Purifiers vs Reecius' Bjorn Wolves
Purifiers vs Paladin GK's
Purifiers vs SabrX's 9-broadside Tau
Purifiers vs Tau
Purifiers vs Razor-spam BA
Purifiers vs Deathwing
Purifiers vs Ard Boyz 1: TWC Space Wolves
Purifiers vs Ard Boyz 2: Tau (rematch)
Purifiers vs Ard Boyz 3: Draigo-Stormraven

Tjolle79 wrote:Seeing as to how Crowe lists have performed in tournies all across the world i would say that stating that "crowe lists suck" is a wee bit ignorant. Thats like saying mech eldar under the older rules used to suck.

Its been tried and tested, and im sure not only by "stupid lazy players that doesnt know gak" what is basically what you're saying.

Of course you can tailor an army that beats a crowe list with ease, just as you could tailor an army to combat YOUR tailored anti-crowe list with ease. There's always theoretical battle scenarios you point out, and do as much mathhammer as you feel the need for.

Fact still stands that Crowe purifier psyfiledread armies can tackle pretty much anything and has done so on many occasions.

So not much of this makes much sense.

1) Have Crowe lists been performing well in tourneys? It's not like I've done a scientific study on it, but I've heard a great deal about GK list winning and pacing well at tourney's, but almost none of them Crowe lists. Lots pf psyflemen, henchmen, storravens, psycback MSU, but no crowe. So, anecdotally, no. If you can site some examples of Crowe lists doing well at any GTs, I'd love to hear it.

2) why do you think I've tailored a list to take on Crowe lists? What did I say that indicated that I was doing that?

3) well that last one just isn't true. Are they going to tackle LR lists well? No, they're not. Ditto, x2 for battlewagons. And for almost any reasonable DE build.

/sigh

*Sigh*, right back at you, buddy.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

Tjolle79 wrote:Seeing as to how Crowe lists have performed in tournies all across the world i would say that stating that "crowe lists suck" is a wee bit ignorant. Thats like saying mech eldar under the older rules used to suck.

Its been tried and tested, and im sure not only by "stupid lazy players that doesnt know gak" what is basically what you're saying.

Of course you can tailor an army that beats a crowe list with ease, just as you could tailor an army to combat YOUR tailored anti-crowe list with ease. There's always theoretical battle scenarios you point out, and do as much mathhammer as you feel the need for.

Fact still stands that Crowe purifier psyfiledread armies can tackle pretty much anything and has done so on many occasions.

So not much of this makes much sense.

1) Have Crowe lists been performing well in tourneys? It's not like I've done a scientific study on it, but I've heard a great deal about GK list winning and pacing well at tourney's, but almost none of them Crowe lists. Lots pf psyflemen, henchmen, storravens, psycback MSU, but no crowe. So, anecdotally, no. If you can site some examples of Crowe lists doing well at any GTs, I'd love to hear it.

2) why do you think I've tailored a list to take on Crowe lists? What did I say that indicated that I was doing that?

3) well that last one just isn't true. Are they going to tackle LR lists well? No, they're not. Ditto, x2 for battlewagons. And for almost any reasonable DE build.

1) You seem to think that Psyfleman, Stormraven, and psyback MSU are mutually exclusive with a Crowe Purifier list. they are not. I can take Psyfleman dreds in a Crowe List, I can put my Purifiers in stormravens, I can put lots of 5-6 man squads in Razorbacks. 6 Purifiers(1 daemon hammer, 4 halberds, 1 psycannon) in a Razorback with an Assault cannon and psybolts is 252 pts. 3 squads of this and then 3 more squads with HBs instead of assault cannons (217 each) add in Crowe and I have a 1557 point army with 6 troops choices in Razorbacks. Daemonhammers allow me to handle LRs with ease. plenty of room to get more stuff, like some psyfleman dreds.

3) Purifiers can take Daemon Hammers, and psycannons are quite deadly as anti-tank weapons. Dark Eldar are a slight uphill battle, but storm bolters and psyfleman can take down raiders and such with ease. 24" is actually quite a distance on a board that is only 48" accross. DE don't have many places to hide from 24"

jy2 wrote:*snip*

The win percentage of those batreps is 66%. But once again, this thread was not about if you can or cannot win with Crowe and whose list is better than whose. It is about a player with a specific list asking for suggestions in how to play Crowe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:DE don't have many places to hide from 24"

Don't forget Night Shields.

Grey Templar wrote:
1) You seem to think that Psyfleman, Stormraven, and psyback MSU are mutually exclusive with a Crowe Purifier list. they are not. I can take Psyfleman dreds in a Crowe List, I can put my Purifiers in stormravens, I can put lots of 5-6 man squads in Razorbacks. 6 Purifiers(1 daemon hammer, 4 halberds, 1 psycannon) in a Razorback with an Assault cannon and psybolts is 252 pts. 3 squads of this and then 3 more squads with HBs instead of assault cannons (217 each) add in Crowe and I have a 1557 point army with 6 troops choices in Razorbacks. Daemonhammers allow me to handle LRs with ease. plenty of room to get more stuff, like some psyfleman dreds.

No, I didn't say, or suggest, that any of those things are mutually exclusive to a crowe list. What I said was that I see those elements, in various combinations, in winning tournament lists, but I do not see Crowe in winning tournament lists. Once again, I am happy to be cited counter-examples.

I don't know where you get the idea that daemonhammers are an answer to LRs. Granted it does happen, I've done it, and it's been done to me, but it's a pure freak occurrence. Most times you have an opportunity to swing at an assault LR, it will have moved 12" and you will be hitting on 6's. Then, of course, even with hammerhand, you only glance on 4's. Very low chances of a kill. Realistically, even that isn't going to happen very often, since if you're at that range, actually, way outside that range, there will be something inside that is happe to charge you.

3) Purifiers can take Daemon Hammers, and psycannons are quite deadly as anti-tank weapons. Dark Eldar are a slight uphill battle, but storm bolters and psyfleman can take down raiders and such with ease. 24" is actually quite a distance on a board that is only 48" accross. DE don't have many places to hide from 24"

Once again, I don't know why you think hammers are going to help. But yes, psycannons and stormbolters, better yet Str 5 bolters, do absolutely fantastic against DE. This, btw, is why you really want GKSS -- They provide a much, much better volume of fire, and will smack down radiers left and right. Your CC ability really isn't going to matter against DE, one way or the other, but your shooting will, which why the much cheaper GKSS are better.

And anyway, as Puma said, the real problem is night shields. You are absolutely right that 24" is enough to cover a lot of ground without much room to run. 18" though, is not. It's a little funny that 6" makes such a huge difference, but it does. 24" is enough range, and 18" for whatever reason, is not.

puma713 wrote:

jy2 wrote:*snip*

The win percentage of those batreps is 66%. But once again, this thread was not about if you can or cannot win with Crowe and whose list is better than whose. It is about a player with a specific list asking for suggestions in how to play Crowe.

I apologize, but my/our debate with Sir_Prometheus had gone wonderfully off-topic. My links were more in response to his posts than they were to the OP's original question.

Now my off-topic point is not that purifier-dread GK's are invincible and can beat every opponent thrown against them. Rather, it's that they can still play at a very high level (competitive, if you will) against some great competition.

BTW, you can find some great tactics using Crowe in my reports. So indirectly, instead of telling the OP directly how to use Crowe, I'm instead showing him how I use Crowe.

Btw I actually responded to some of the batreps here, as yeah, I was kinda highjacking this thread.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/391967.page

Would love to see a west coast vs east coast GK battle between JY2 and Prometheus and then we could finally put to rest this debate you two have about the units you choose and why.

Actually, I would too. He likes to tank shock like crazy, though, which I've always found a frustrating rule.