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Hey all... I was checking out on Fantasy flight games their other roleplaying games....I currently play the Warhammer fantasy roleplaying game... and i love it... But i saw what looked like 3 warhammer 40k rpgs....deathwatch, dark heresy, and black crusade....and im confused...they all look like 40k...so why three seperate games? I am thinking of picking up deathwatch cause it looked the coolest (not always the smartest reasoning for picking up an rpg) but wanted others opinons.

Dark heresy is playing as part of the inquisition as a normal human in 40k.

Rogue trader is playing as part of a rogue traders vessel in space as a normal human or possibly a xenos.

Deathwatch is playing a space marine who is sent to deathwatch to combat xenos threats.

Black crusade is playing either a space marine or a normal human as a servant of the chaos gods.


In terms of why they are seperate, they don't have to be. You can have interlinking games in a sense.

In deathwatch your just killing machines sent on missions.

In dark heresy your just normal humans trying to survive while doing what your inquisitor tells you.

In rogue trader you simply just roll around doing mostly whatever you want in your ship.

And in black crusade... you do all kinds of evil stuff, for chaos.

The Deathwatch book is amazing, I encourage you to pick it up. If you like Space Marines, and the concept that you are a elite team of marines assembled to combat the threats that the Imperium deems exterminatus!

I have played this game, and I liked it a lot.

The systems can all be combined with each other, the Deathwatch book is similar to the Dark Heresy book, except the Dark Heresy book, you can only play humans, not Marnies.

DeathReaper wrote:The Deathwatch book is amazing, I encourage you to pick it up. If you like Space Marines, and the concept that you are a elite team of marines assembled to combat the threats that the Imperium deems exterminatus!

I have played this game, and I liked it a lot.

The systems can all be combined with each other, the Deathwatch book is similar to the Dark Heresy book, except the Dark Heresy book, you can only play humans, not Marnies.

Yeah i ordered the Deathwatch core book and the game master kit.... I figured that they were all interlocked... so could I always use the modules from the other games (dark heresy, black crusade etc...) and use them for deathwatch???
Also...do i need any special dice? (like the ones from warhammer fantasy rpg) or can i just use my D+D dice which i have loads of! lol

You just need d10 dice for the game.

Yes you can always use modules from other games in deathwatch, just remember a deathwatch marine is on a different level of strength than a dark heresy character starting out.

I really wouldn't recommend crossovers, it doesn't work well. The games are designed somewhat "insular" in that they work well within themselves, but things just start to feel wrong as soon as you port stuff over from one to another. It's sort of okay'ish between Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader, where you will only have people complaining about XP costs and talent/skill disparity, but it goes completely downhill in Deathwatch, as Marine characters use different rules and different equipment, the latter partially as a byproduct of the way how the so-called "unnatural characteristics" work in that game. For example, a Marine throwing a rock causes as much damage as another player character with his bolter, so the solution they went for was upping Marine weapon damage. This was also necessary to allow Marine characters to be able to kill each other, as their toughness makes them almost invulnerable against stuff like even plasma pistols.

All of that is also reflected in the various supplements. The enemies that Deathwatch characters fight are thus frequently more dangerous and resilient, even when an equivalent already existed for one of the other games. I think Orks, Genestealers and Eldar have two or three different statlines by now, and the Tau Pulserifle in Rogue Trader is different from the one in DW et cetera.

Still, all enemies and equipment are using the same basic d10 mechanics, so a clever GM should have no trouble taking and adapting these things - if you're willing to do the work.

As far as themes go ... Dark Heresy is pretty much Call of Cthulhu (Inquisitorial investigation with occasional combat), Rogue Trader is Traveller (piracy, trading and Empire-building with ship-to-ship space fights), and Deathwatch is Dungeons & Dragons with Marines (generally shooting and slaying stuff "300"-style). They all have something going for them, it depends entirely on you what kind of playstyle you prefer.

well i aofficially picked up deathwatch, the gamemasters kit, the emperor protects, and the rites of battle. CANNOT WAIT! really looking forward for them to come in the mail!

Keep in mind that Deathwatch is sorta the 40k RPG equivalent of "300", especially relative to the other FFG 40k RPG's, so there's a good degree of heroic exaggeration in terms of character/party power, but it's also a good solid system, though relatively constrained in what it can do for encounters/campaigns given the nature of the characters portrayed (e.g. lots of hack n' slash, light on more traditional RPG elements like investigation/Role Play/conversation/etc)

Deathwatch is loads of fun - we're actually playing a game this weekend (my Blood Angel Chaplain is hoping to crack some Chaos skulls!). Heroic last stands, over-the-top glorious speeches before charginging in, unrelenting firepower - all of these make Deathwatch what it is. It also makes a nice change from playing wimpy humans in Dark Heresy.

Black Crusade is a good mix of both IMO. The humans are squishy, but useful, and the Chaos Marines are hard-as-nails, but need the humans for specific tasks.

I think these books are worth their weight in fluff. If you're an addict of the 40k universe, then I'd grab 'em.

I've only played Deathwatch myself, and I would give it two thumbs way up. But like any DnD style game, it really depends on your group and game master. If you guys play well together, it's awesome, but a single bad apple can really ruin the experience... Like our latest addition to our kill team, the Salamander Techmarine asking "What's an auspex?"

Obviously, we just informed him what it was and moved on, but we have a few guys in the group that aren't that familiar with the 40K world, and they subtract from the feel of the game just due to the constant stops to explain what certain things are and why certain things work the way the do. That said, I would only suggest the game if everyone (especially the game master) is a 40K or no one does.

Fun game. Broken as hell, but fun. Played through one of the pre-made campaigns with some friends. We figured out that our team of 5 marines (Devistator, Assault, Tactical, Apothecary, and Librarian) killed or routed over 130k people in less than 4 hours. We also downed 40+ genestealers, leveled three city blocks (mostly on accident), blew the top half of a tower into low orbit (which proceeded to nearly land on us later on), and completely gakked a broodlord in about 1/2 a second.

Rogue trader... ummm... yeah... its space ships. in space. with spaceships to shoot at. You also get a small army at your back & call. The three times our characters actually went planetside, one of us always died (a psyker going crazy and zotting you with warp juju... a mega armour nob cutting you in half with his gun.... a carnifex) Space combat usually entails your void master blasting the gak out of the enemy ship, causing catostrophic engine failure, depressurization, and fire everywhere. Afterwards your techpriest/arch militant sends in the murder servitors to kill any survivors. You then send in the tech-priest to dismantle/salvage/bless/loot-the-crud-out of it. Storm weapons are busted.

Dark Heresy is the best IMO. Lasguns? awesome. Power armour? near non-existant. a single bloodletter? kiss your entire party goodbye if you're lower than rank 3. oh, and if you're planning on GMing a dark heresy game, keep a close tab on any techpriests. They can get very broken very fast. One of the "prestige" classes basically turns you into a walking murder machine. What? you want HOW MANY MULTILASERS ATTACHED TO YOU?!?!?! HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??! (player points to 400xp upgrade he took)... ... ...

Amanax wrote:I've only played Deathwatch myself, and I would give it two thumbs way up. But like any DnD style game, it really depends on your group and game master. If you guys play well together, it's awesome, but a single bad apple can really ruin the experience... Like our latest addition to our kill team, the Salamander Techmarine asking "What's an auspex?"

Obviously, we just informed him what it was and moved on, but we have a few guys in the group that aren't that familiar with the 40K world, and they subtract from the feel of the game just due to the constant stops to explain what certain things are and why certain things work the way the do. That said, I would only suggest the game if everyone (especially the game master) is a 40K or no one does.

whats an auspex??? i would have pulled my bolter out and killed his character right then andthere!

I prefer rogue trader

I suppose the fluff in these books is awesome? That'd be my only interest in these books, none of my friends are into 40k, even less into RPGs.

I'd be interested in the First Founding book for some White Scars goodness...

briurso wrote:

Amanax wrote:I've only played Deathwatch myself, and I would give it two thumbs way up. But like any DnD style game, it really depends on your group and game master. If you guys play well together, it's awesome, but a single bad apple can really ruin the experience... Like our latest addition to our kill team, the Salamander Techmarine asking "What's an auspex?"

Obviously, we just informed him what it was and moved on, but we have a few guys in the group that aren't that familiar with the 40K world, and they subtract from the feel of the game just due to the constant stops to explain what certain things are and why certain things work the way the do. That said, I would only suggest the game if everyone (especially the game master) is a 40K or no one does.

whats an auspex??? i would have pulled my bolter out and killed his character right then andthere!

Oddly enough, later in the same mission, my character did try and kill his... twice. Would have succeeded too, if it weren't for GM intervention <_<

StarHunter25 wrote:Fun game. Broken as hell, but fun. Played through one of the pre-made campaigns with some friends. We figured out that our team of 5 marines (Devistator, Assault, Tactical, Apothecary, and Librarian) killed or routed over 130k people in less than 4 hours. We also downed 40+ genestealers, leveled three city blocks (mostly on accident), blew the top half of a tower into low orbit (which proceeded to nearly land on us later on), and completely gakked a broodlord in about 1/2 a second.

Now do it again, but use the FAQ weapon stats. It'll change things.

StarHunter25 wrote:What? you want HOW MANY MULTILASERS ATTACHED TO YOU?!?!?! HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??! (player points to 400xp upgrade he took)... ... ...

He's gotto have the money to buy them first.

StarHunter25 wrote:you want HOW MANY MULTILASERS ATTACHED TO YOU?!?!?!

This made me chuckle.

N'Ferno wrote:I suppose the fluff in these books is awesome?

Sorta. In my opinions the books are really well written, the descriptions lovingly detailed. A few things go against studio material, though, so you'd better keep that fluff within the game world instead of extrapolating.
In short: it's like with Black Library novels, but the good ones, only that the rulebooks and supplements don't tell a story (though they do have short story snippets here and there) but rather describe the environment. In fact, there's a number of talented BL authors who wrote stuff for these books, such as Dan Abnett or Andy Hoare.

I may not agree with all of the ideas these books have introduced, but I still find myself enjoying how they were written.

Dark Heresy has more of an investigatory focus
Rogue Trader is about exploring and negotiating for Fun & Profit
Deathwatch is about super-soldiers saving the Imperium

All of the games have areas of obvious possible overlap. And all three are more or less compatible. But the basic focus of each game is slightly different. That doesn't mean that they can't be re-tooled by a playing group. But it's something to be aware of.

All three games can also be run as a Lovecraftian horror if the GM is so inclined...

I own dark heresy and deathwatch. My group of friends mostly plays d&d but 2 of them also play 40k with me so most of the fluff was easy enough to explain to the other members.

They really enjoyed the feel of dark heresy and had a lot of fun with it but if you're used to d&d the biggest thing to get used to is the %rolls and modifier system. I haven't tried deathwatch yet though even though I really want to because one of my friends is a big marine hater so has no desire to play as a marine. Although I'm not sure why because his d&d characters don't really have personality either.

As for the fluff, there is a lot of cool stuff about the imperium in general and lots of good info that expands on the inquisition and the deathwatch in particular. The deathwatch book also has a nice explanation of exactly what each marine organ does.

My best advice would be to not worry about rules so much. There are a ton of modifiers to remember but generally just give players a +20 for easy stuff or a -20 for really hard stuff and you should be ok. One of the biggest frustrations my players had moving between systems is going from an 80+% chance of success on an optimized character to a 60% chance or less on an optimized character. Sometimes the system really feels like it doesn't want even skilled characters succeeding at things they should. The psychic power system in dark heresy is a good example of this although they fixed it for deathwatch which is nice.

well...got all my books in through the mail...really digging the rules....pretty straight forward..cant wait till next week...friday clone wars premiere..followed by a DEATHWATCH CAMPAIGN!

Have played all except Dark Heresy. Love them all to bits, though Rogue Trader is my favourite.

Cross overs suck arse though. If you have to do it and you're determined to, it's recommended not to just bump the little guy up with xp but make them an equivalent rank.

Depends on the game and what, exactly, you're crossing over. DH characters work well in a RT game, even if they don't function by quite the same rules (you can replace Profit Factor with Influence, though). Non-SM characters in a DW game, though, are really getting the short end, because they're simply not Space Marines, and are simply not expected to be capable of surviving the things that Space Marines do... and the rules reflect this.

I have looked over many of the books while browsing at my FLGS. Dark Heresy is the game that grabs my fancy the most. I feel that as a game master, I can prepare the widest range of adventure possibilities for my game group with that game as opposed to Rogue Trader or Deathwatch. I don't really know much about Black Crusade, but if it involves playing cultists, trying to start rebellions on Imperial worlds, then it might be pretty cool as well.

We had a GM decide to chuck a SoB PC in a DW game. The results were horrible. To make her equal to the SMs, he made her really high rank - high enough she should be a canonness. Also meant that she had access to higher talents so really, this SoB that had no reason to be with us could have taken on and won against any one of us who were SMs. So I'm a little burnt by cross over.....

I haven't looked at Black Crusade yet but from skimming through the other three, it doesn't seem like there is a lot of crossover potential, as each version has some unique mechanics and gameplay elements. Take that with a grain of salt though, as I have not played yet. Looking forward to running a Dark Heresy game this fall.

CadianCommander wrote:We had a GM decide to chuck a SoB PC in a DW game. The results were horrible. To make her equal to the SMs, he made her really high rank - high enough she should be a canonness. Also meant that she had access to higher talents so really, this SoB that had no reason to be with us could have taken on and won against any one of us who were SMs. So I'm a little burnt by cross over.....

Ugh. Even with the weird, massive disparities in toughness and armour against her "civilian" (lol) weapons? From looking at the equipment, I'd have put my money on the Marines any time.

If your group ever does that again, I'd suggest simply giving everyone the same weapons and armour and letting everyone start on the same level, too. Instead of Faith powers, give her access to squad mode. The SoB will still be squishier then, but that is to be expected when fighting alongside Astartes. This way she will at least be able to do equal damage in ranged combat and as such merely be pushed into a "specialist" position where she can still be useful.
If you want I can also PM you with a homebrewn version of SoB power armour more suitable for DW games (basically a "light" version of FFG's Marine suits, slightly more true to the Codex description). As of yet it is still not playtested, however, so I also offer this to potentially garner some feedback.

Generally I share your feelings about crossovers, though. And the more I hear about Black Crusade, the more sceptical I get about how fun it will be to play a mere mortal there, too.

The Faith Powers aren't all that, really. They're cool, yes, but require either burning up Fate Points (which come in a very limited supply) or are useful only very situationally (how often do you run into the daemonically possessed, really?).

Still, I see no reason why the DW would need a SoB, unless they happened to be on a mission and encountered her as a survivor on some xeno-conquered world or something. Then the mission becomes an extraction. For better story, make her Hospitaler or Dialoguos, so that she has *some* battle ability but not the depth or range of a Sister Militant. This can make for exciting and tense running gun-battles.

Dropping a Sister Militant into a DH game, though, is ill-advised. Most Inquisitorial parties include at least one psyker, and probably a few Scums or other bits of rough trade that the Sister is not going to like. At all. This does not bode well for team cohesion.

Psienesis wrote:Still, I see no reason why the DW would need a SoB, unless they happened to be on a mission and encountered her as a survivor on some xeno-conquered world or something.

Oh, yeah, that's another issue of course. It could easily be explained by "circumstances" (the way how a majority of P&P parties seem to meet), but generally the only other character that would make sense accompanying a squad of Deathwatch Marines would be an Inquisitor. This is, of course, another option for players who may not like to play Astartes. Though it will still require some balancing and retooling the existing rules, given that FFG books suggest an Inquisitor's equipment wouldn't be half as good as the stuff of some Marine (but as pointed out, that's likely only because they were made for another game).
A Sister Militant would be a viable choice only because, at least as per GW material, their equipment would be equal, allowing them to operate on almost the same level.

Psienesis wrote:Dropping a Sister Militant into a DH game, though, is ill-advised. Most Inquisitorial parties include at least one psyker, and probably a few Scums or other bits of rough trade that the Sister is not going to like. At all. This does not bode well for team cohesion.

Well, not really - it depends entirely on how the party works and how people play their characters. Sororitas have been part of Inquisitorial cells since the 3E Codex Witch Hunters has established a connection between them and the Ordo Hereticus, and it's not like Sisters would go into rage at the very sight of a sanctioned psyker. They are forced to use them themselves, after all. I suppose the relationship could be compared to the Black Templars.

Or, to throw in a quote from a BL novel (not studio material, but this part feels like a fitting display on how the Sisters may think on such things, and how to rationalize a certain level of cooperation in a DH game):

"This vexes me, Sister Superior", said Iona, her frown deepening beneath her hood. "What is our cause if not to take the psyker to task for his witchery, to show the Emperor’s displeasure?" She looked as if she wanted to spit. "That we are called upon to… to associate with this mutant is enough to make my stomach turn. There is a part of me that wants to contact the captain and order him to take that abomination from the Emperor’s sky."
Miriya gave her a sharp look. "Have a care, Sister. You and I may detest these creatures, but in their wisdom, the servants of the Throne see fit to use these pitiful wretches in His name. As much as that may sicken us, we cannot refuse a command that comes from the highest levels of the Ecclesiarchy."
The answer was not nearly enough to satisfy Iona’s disquiet. "How can such things go on, I ask you? The psyker is our mortal enemy–"
Iona’s commander silenced her with a raised hand. "The witch is our enemy, Sister. The psyker is a tool. Only the untrained and the wild are a threat to the Imperium." Miriya’s eyes narrowed. "You have never served as I have, Iona. For two full years I was a warden aboard one of those blighted vessels. On the darkest nights, the things I saw there still haunt me so…" She forced the memories away. "This is how the God-Emperor tests the faithful, Sister. He shows us our greatest fears and has us overcome them."

They walked in silence for a few moments before Iona spoke again. "We are taught in the earliest days of our indoctrination that those cursed with the psychic mark in their blood are living gateways to Chaos. All of them, Sister Superior, not just the ones who eschew the worship of the Golden Throne. One single slip and even the most devout will fall, and open the way to the warp!"
Miriya raised an eyebrow. It was perhaps the most passion she had ever seen the dour woman display. "That is why we are here. Since the Age of Apostasy, we and all our Sister Sororitas have stood at the gates to hell and barred the witchkin. As the mutant falls, so does the traitor, so does the witch." She placed a hand on Iona’s shoulder. "Ask yourself this, Sister. Who else could be called forth to accomplish what we shall do today?" Miriya’s face split in a wry smile. "The men of the Imperial Navy or the Guard? They would be dead in moments from the shock. The Adeptus Astartes? Those abhumans willingly welcome psykers into their own ranks." She shook her head ruefully. "No, Iona, only we, the Sisters of Battle, can stand sentinel here." The woman patted her pistol holster. "And mark me well, if but one of those misbegotten wretches steps out of line, then we will show them the burning purity of our censure."

... actually, having a Sister or a Cleric in the same group as a Psyker can create some pretty cool roleplaying, if the players are good enough to stick to their characters and keep conflict minimized by thinking of the consequences. Similar to how an Arbites character would view the questionable methods of some Hive Scum or even his own Inquisitor.

Yes, but this is a RPG group we're talking about. Foresight and consideration of consequence? Pshaw! My WS is higher than your BS! Have at you!

(Chainswords rev and dice rattle.... the GM sighs, because this is what happened to the *last* party that this group was sent to discover the fate of...)