Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Does anyone else think that the loyal primarchs got completely wrecked by the rebel Primarchs? I mean about 7 of the Rebel ones are Greater Demons and may still be alive while all of the Loyal ones are either MIa or KIA. I mean seriously, how didn't the Chaos Marines win, they had numbers and were getting through the fortress. They probably could've held off the loyalists coming too. WHat are your guys' thoughts?

The loyal primarchs didnt have the OPTION to become DPs or GD.
Chaos lost because of all the fluff armor the UMs had on...

Bad guys never win

They didn't win because chaos cannot win. The imperial armies are worth more than 50% of GW profits. If they went, then GW wouldn't be in very good shape.

EDIT: Damn ninja's.

Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:Does anyone else think that the loyal primarchs got completely wrecked by the rebel Primarchs? I mean about 7 of the Rebel ones are Greater Demons and may still be alive while all of the Loyal ones are either MIa or KIA. I mean seriously, how didn't the Chaos Marines win, they had numbers and were getting through the fortress. They probably could've held off the loyalists coming too. WHat are your guys' thoughts?

To be fair, a lot of the Loyalist Primarchs may still be alive, and others were killed or incapacitated after the Heresy, like Guilliman.

And yeah, the Loyalist Primarchs don't get the option of being Daemon Princes, lol.

The Traitor Primarchs and all the Chaos forces retreated after Horus was killed by the Emperor.

Exactly the point I made in another thread! Seems to suggest that Chaos has a lot going for it, especially when you think of the pathetic ways in which some of the loyalist primarchs got injured and killed!

However, is becoming a demon really a major success?

Isengard wrote:Exactly the point I made in another thread! Seems to suggest that Chaos has a lot going for it, especially when you think of the pathetic ways in which some of the loyalist primarchs got injured and killed!

However, is becoming a demon really a major success?

For a servant of Chaos then yes, absolutely. They gain the power of a Greater Daemon whilst staying involved with the events of the material realm.

Isengard wrote:Exactly the point I made in another thread! Seems to suggest that Chaos has a lot going for it, especially when you think of the pathetic ways in which some of the loyalist primarchs got injured and killed!

However, is becoming a demon really a major success?

A normal Chaos Marine becoming a Daemon Prince makes them almost on par with the average Greater Daemon.

The Daemon Primarchs are far stronger than that now, and rule their own Daemon Worlds as gods.

It's a great success for a follower of Chaos.

There is no glory in becoming a pawn of Chaos.

To suggest that the traitor primarchs have come out on top because they're still living is to ignore what they have become and the lives they live. I'm sure it isn't an altogether joyous experience no matter how 'cool' it might seem to be a demon.

Remember as well that Fulgrim is trapped within his own body by a demon. Forced to live out his existence in that way does not seem like a victory to me.

Uhlan wrote:There is no glory in becoming a pawn of Chaos.

To suggest that the traitor primarchs have come out on top because they're still living is to ignore what they have become and the lives they live. I'm sure it isn't an altogether joyous experience no matter how 'cool' it might seem to be a demon.

Remember as well that Fulgrim is trapped within his own body by a demon. Forced to live out his existence in that way does not seem like a victory to me.

Angron seems like he's having a pretty good time.

It gives hopes to chaos one day we will rise and remove the very existence of the imperium. But this wont happen due to the game would lose a lot money.
Be good to have a campaign and which ever side wins the winner removes the opposite special named character from the book. Something needs to be the public vote.

Uhlan wrote:There is no glory in becoming a pawn of Chaos.

To suggest that the traitor primarchs have come out on top because they're still living is to ignore what they have become and the lives they live. I'm sure it isn't an altogether joyous experience no matter how 'cool' it might seem to be a demon.

Remember as well that Fulgrim is trapped within his own body by a demon. Forced to live out his existence in that way does not seem like a victory to me.

And importantly, also the glorious possibilities forsaken when they chose the paths they did. Had they great crusade continued and succeeded, they would indeed have become rulers of the galaxy.

Void__Dragon wrote:Angron seems like he's having a pretty good time.

He seems very much to be the exception, however. The remainder of the traitor primarchs seem (though of course subsequent fluff may contradict this) to have achieved little or nothing in the millennia since their ascension. A common inference from their absence from the spotlight is that, having become essentially immortal creatures of the empyrean, they have grown distanced from mortal concerns and no longer feel the motivation they once did to act in the physical world.

Chaos can't win because it's too, well, chaotic. The warbands fight each other as often as they fight the Imperium, and the legions aren't much better. When everyone is fighting to come out on top, they're not fighting for the same cause.

spudkins wrote:It gives hopes to chaos one day we will rise and remove the very existence of the imperium. But this wont happen due to the game would lose a lot money.
Be good to have a campaign and which ever side wins the winner removes the opposite special named character from the book. Something needs to be the public vote.

A significant number of the codices' special characters are canonically dead as of 999.M41 anyway.

Chaos can't win becasue their leaders are to busy trying to kill each other most of the time. Ocasionally there's a Black Crusade, but that never gets too far.

Void__Dragon wrote:

A normal Chaos Marine becoming a Daemon Prince makes them almost on par with the average Greater Daemon.

The Daemon Primarchs are far stronger than that now, and rule their own Daemon Worlds as gods.

It's a great success for a follower of Chaos.

Draigo would like to have a word.

woodbok wrote:They didn't win because chaos cannot win. The imperial armies are worth more than 50% of GW profits. If they went, then GW wouldn't be in very good shape.

EDIT: Damn ninja's.

Chaos didn't win because it was actuallyt the intention of the Dark Gods. Ultimately, the whole point of the Heresy was to ensure the Chaos Gods' survival through a slow decline of the Imperium and the emotions and worship they would devour from the human race consequentally. IMO, the Emporer's plan was to starve the gods through the Aetheism of the Imperial Truth, and it might just have succeded if not for that disaster. The dark gods would have starved if the Imperial Truth prospered, but they will also starve if the Imperium and/or human race is destroyed (wasn't that Alpharius/Omegon's plan anyway?). So, truth, Chaos did win the Heresy, even if the pawns/enlightened ones didn't.

+1 Deathly angel.
besides, chaos does not really care about the real world. their attentions are mostly fixed on their struggles in the warp.
they do however realise that a decline in emotional feedback from the real world would mean their destruction, so they do what they can to keep the fires hot so to speak and milk humanity of every scrap of emotion they can. if that means torturing the imperium to death in a slow decline then so be it.

No Chaos wanted the Imperium and more imporantly the EMperor destroyed for even more carnage and whorshipping. But the emperor was just to strong and the Rebel Primarchs proved to be a bunch of egomanic loosers.


And what about the Primarchs now? In the great crusade they conquered world after world. Now they are held in bay by the Imperium and get another Penalty-time in the Warp again and again.

tarnish wrote:
besides, chaos does not really care about the real world. their attentions are mostly fixed on their struggles in the warp

This is utter nonsense, considering all of their schemes and plots ideally culminate in crossing over into the material realm, or better yet, bringing Chaos with them. Ultimate victory for Chaos is when the Eye of Terror envelops the whole galaxy and all souls are their playthings.

Omegus wrote:

tarnish wrote:
besides, chaos does not really care about the real world. their attentions are mostly fixed on their struggles in the warp

This is utter nonsense, considering all of their schemes and plots ideally culminate in crossing over into the material realm, or better yet, bringing Chaos with them. Ultimate victory for Chaos is when the Eye of Terror envelops the whole galaxy and all souls are their playthings.

It's not nonsense. I'd like to point you to the current Daemons of Chaos Codex. They're FAR more concerned with playing the Great Game.

English Assassin wrote:He seems very much to be the exception, however. The remainder of the traitor primarchs seem (though of course subsequent fluff may contradict this) to have achieved little or nothing in the millennia since their ascension. A common inference from their absence from the spotlight is that, having become essentially immortal creatures of the empyrean, they have grown distanced from mortal concerns and no longer feel the motivation they once did to act in the physical world.

You view growing beyond mortal concerns as a bad thing? They are immortal and now wage grand wars in the Immaterium for Chaos. That's a better fate than most in the Imperium. And certainly better than being in a stasis field and feeling yourself dying for ten thousand years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dark Scipio wrote:No Chaos wanted the Imperium and more imporantly the EMperor destroyed for even more carnage and whorshipping. But the emperor was just to strong and the Rebel Primarchs proved to be a bunch of egomanic loosers.


And what about the Primarchs now? In the great crusade they conquered world after world. Now they are held in bay by the Imperium and get another Penalty-time in the Warp again and again.

Chaos couldn't give a damn about the Imperium. They wanted the Emperor out of the picture. They got that. They are stronger now than ever before.

Held in bay by the Imperium? Seventy sectors burned the one time Angron left the Warp. When Magnus attacked the Fang, the key to fixing their geneseed was destroyed. Even Mortarion killed the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights before Draigo used his heart as a coloring book.

Sure, they were eventually banished (Except for maybe MAgnus, never read Battle of the Fang, so my knowledge on the events is second-hand), but you know what that ultimately robs them of? Nothing. They are still among the most favored and powerful of the Chaos God's servants.

The Daemon Primarchs are in better shape than the other Primarchs, who are dead, in stasis, or missing (Khan from what I hear is rumored to be captured by Dark Eldar, which is kind of a raw deal).

Void__Dragon wrote:



The Daemon Primarchs are in better shape than the other Primarchs, who are dead, in stasis, or missing (Khan from what I hear is rumored to be captured by Dark Eldar, which is kind of a raw deal).

Better shape?

Better dead than a minion, a slave bound in the image of a demon.

Why don't they return if they are in such good shape?
Wait..
The think they are in good shape, but thats an illusion.
They became grumpy old farts, geriatric and bitter.

woodbok wrote:They didn't win because chaos cannot win.

Chaos absolutely was the winner of the Heresy.

Their greatest and only threat was completely neutralized leaving them free reign over the rest of the galaxy for at least ten thousand years.

The Space Marines that thought they were allying with Chaos lost.

1hadhq wrote:Better shape?

Better dead than a minion, a slave bound in the image of a demon.

Why don't they return if they are in such good shape?
Wait..
The think they are in good shape, but thats an illusion.
They became grumpy old farts, geriatric and bitter.

Hmm, dead, and therefore having your soul devoured by Chaos, or a uberpowerful Daemon with the power to bend and shape a planet according to your whim?

I'd go with the latter.

And Guilliman undoubtedly has a more raw deal than the Daemon Primarchs. Feeling like you've been dying of poison for ten thousand years ftw.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Hmm, dead

yep. R.I.P.

Not an existance in unrest as a cartoon of yourself.

Void__Dragon wrote:
or a uberpowerful Daemon with the power to bend and shape a planet according to your whim?

Bend and shape a hellhole filled with Demons,
- instead of shaping a galaxy wide empire, driving the xeno and the non-compliant before you?
Giving orders to the insane, the betrayers and the lost,
- instead of a well oiled fighting machine backed up by nigh limitless ressources ?

I doubt I'd give up on the GC.

The uberpowerfulness is a lie. The Traitor Primarchs are all disabled. Maybe you can scare kittys or little kids with them.

Void__Dragon wrote:
And Guilliman undoubtedly has a more raw deal than the Daemon Primarchs. Feeling like you've been dying of poison for ten thousand years ftw.

Who cares for him ? Look down. Do you spot a blue helmet?

Omegus wrote:

tarnish wrote:
besides, chaos does not really care about the real world. their attentions are mostly fixed on their struggles in the warp

This is utter nonsense, considering all of their schemes and plots ideally culminate in crossing over into the material realm, or better yet, bringing Chaos with them. Ultimate victory for Chaos is when the Eye of Terror envelops the whole galaxy and all souls are their playthings.

for someone who has: "fluff for the fluff god", in his info box, you really need to read up on some of it
the warp is not simply another world... it needs the living to grow or even exist as it is now. if every soul was devoured then the warp would run out off juice fast, and the greater powers know this. for things to remain beneficial they need to torture the galaxy for all its worth...

1hadhq wrote:The uberpowerfulness is a lie. The Traitor Primarchs are all disabled. Maybe you can scare kittys or little kids with them.

Void__Dragon wrote:
And Guilliman undoubtedly has a more raw deal than the Daemon Primarchs. Feeling like you've been dying of poison for ten thousand years ftw.

Who cares for him ? Look down. Do you spot a blue helmet?

The Troll Side of the Force is strong with this one.

(edit makes this post redundant)

That wasn't directed at you, but in any case, there is plenty of BL fluff that states the ultimate victory for Chaos is subsuming the material realm. Every soul would not be destroyed, but rather would be like the examples we've seen of daemon-ruled planets, where there are plenty of mortal species living in slavery. The best example can probably be seen in the Grey Knights omnibus, but even Codex/IA material describes mortal beings living on daemon planets. See Mortarion's digs, for example, it is a twisted reflection of his origin planet.

The whole reason the brutal oppression of the Imperium is necessary, because unchecked psychic development of the human race would result in another birth of a Chaos god, one to make Slaanesh look like a fart by comparison.