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Void__Dragon wrote:The Heresy also was virtually brought onto the Emperor by himself. The Emperor was more arrogant than Magnus, and a bigger dick than Mortarion, your average undergrad from business school could have done a better job at managing than he did. Angron fell to Chaos almost entirely because of the Emperor being a dick, the Emperor could have easily saved Angron's fellow gladiators, but chose to save Angron alone so he would watch the men he fought and bled with be slaughtered, something Angron never forgave him for. That is but one specific example. In a more general example, the Emperor demanded mindless, unquestioning obedience from everyone, even his sons. Yet, he never stopped to think forcefully commanding others without ever telling anybody why, or telling anyone his plans, could turn out badly. That's really the Emperor's biggest fault, he expected unquestioning loyalty without ever bothering to give them a reason to give it, or explain to his sons what he was planning. Doing that would have kept Horus from beginning to resent his father making him Warmaster, and would have stopped Magnus from accidently destroying the Webway portals the Emperor was working on.

The Emperor and the primarchs are written as Homeric heroes, epic, tragic, larger-than-life characters shaped and guided by forces alien to mere mortals; it's pointless - and frankly disingenuous - to expect psychological realism from them. The Great Crusade and Horus Heresy serve the purpose of providing a mythic backdrop - a 'golden age' and a 'war in heaven', to use anthropologists' terms - to the grim, fallen era of Warhammer 40,000's present, and the primarchs serve the dramatic purpose of providing titanic figures in whose shadows the warriors of the M41 fight, and the foci of eschatological prophecies and 'king under the mountain' myths.

The traitor primarchs have done next to nothing of lasting import in the ten thousand years since the heresy - as much as anything because the essentials of the setting's background had been established several years before the primarchs were introduced. The heresy and the primarchs aren't even mentioned in the 1st edition rulebook, and the original Epic Space Marine game, set in M31, provided only sketchy details about the conflict's progress and its resolution. It has been only recently, with the publication of the Horus Heresy novels, that fans have started obsessing over them; unless Games Workshop decide to go all White Wolf and actually destroy their own setting, we won't see them act again, or witness the resolutions to their stories.

Omegus wrote:
But if you want an example, check out Magnus after he manifested through one of his captains in Battle for the Fang.

thanks. Don't own Battle of the Fang.

iproxtaco wrote:
I suppose, although the ending of one of the Word Bearers books hints that at least one other might take a major interest in the future. Can you guess which one?

Can't, as again, I don't have every book. Maybe a hint?

iproxtaco wrote:The Iron Warriors escaped and built their own little holiday retreat in the Eye of Terror.

thats holiday for you?
ok..

iproxtaco wrote:Great, Solar Macharius obviously did that all by himself, didn't he? Flawed comparison is flawed. He had a silly amount of Guard Regiments and warships.

Yes, solar macharius was great.

Yes, Angron had silly amounts of traitors, mutants, etc etc

Void__Dragon wrote:
It's not like Macharius did it alone, and he did it through brilliant strategy, rather than fury and martial power.

i think English Assassin said it best.

1hadhq wrote:

Omegus wrote:
But if you want an example, check out Magnus after he manifested through one of his captains in Battle for the Fang.

thanks. Don't own Battle of the Fang.

Omegus described what happened pretty well. Magnus simply waded through the Space Wolves defenses without any trouble at all, defenses that had kept his army at bay for days.

iproxtaco wrote:
I suppose, although the ending of one of the Word Bearers books hints that at least one other might take a major interest in the future. Can you guess which one?

Can't, as again, I don't have every book. Maybe a hint?

iproxtaco wrote:The Iron Warriors escaped and built their own little holiday retreat in the Eye of Terror.

thats holiday for you?
ok..

For the Iron Warriors it is. An entire planet they can build into a fortress.

iproxtaco wrote:Great, Solar Macharius obviously did that all by himself, didn't he? Flawed comparison is flawed. He had a silly amount of Guard Regiments and warships.

Yes, solar macharius was great.

Yes, Angron had silly amounts of traitors, mutants, etc etc

Already kind of said, but I doubt that Angron had any support from rebels. He leads a huge horde of mercilless unthinking killers, all he and they care about is killing, there would be little in the way of strategy.
Again though, flawed comparison is flawed, Angron had the support of his Legion and some Daemons, Solar Macharius had the support a LOT of forces, exponentially more than Angron.

iproxtaco wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Omegus wrote:
But if you want an example, check out Magnus after he manifested through one of his captains in Battle for the Fang.

thanks. Don't own Battle of the Fang.

Omegus described what happened pretty well. Magnus simply waded through the Space Wolves defenses without any trouble at all, defenses that had kept his army at bay for days.

iproxtaco wrote:
I suppose, although the ending of one of the Word Bearers books hints that at least one other might take a major interest in the future. Can you guess which one?

Can't, as again, I don't have every book. Maybe a hint?

Spoiler:

Essentially, Lorgar was contemplating overpowering Abaddon for control of the Forces of Chaos. Whether he's capable of doing such is a unknown.

iproxtaco wrote:The Iron Warriors escaped and built their own little holiday retreat in the Eye of Terror.

thats holiday for you?
ok..

For the Iron Warriors it is. An entire planet they can build into a fortress.

iproxtaco wrote:Great, Solar Macharius obviously did that all by himself, didn't he? Flawed comparison is flawed. He had a silly amount of Guard Regiments and warships.

Yes, solar macharius was great.

Yes, Angron had silly amounts of traitors, mutants, etc etc

Already kind of said, but I doubt that Angron had any support from rebels. He leads a huge horde of mercilless unthinking killers, all he and they care about is killing, there would be little in the way of strategy.
Again though, flawed comparison is flawed, Angron had the support of his Legion and some Daemons, Solar Macharius had the support a LOT of forces, exponentially more than Angron.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Omegus wrote:
But if you want an example, check out Magnus after he manifested through one of his captains in Battle for the Fang.

thanks. Don't own Battle of the Fang.

Omegus described what happened pretty well. Magnus simply waded through the Space Wolves defenses without any trouble at all, defenses that had kept his army at bay for days.

iproxtaco wrote:
I suppose, although the ending of one of the Word Bearers books hints that at least one other might take a major interest in the future. Can you guess which one?

Can't, as again, I don't have every book. Maybe a hint?

Spoiler:

Essentially, Lorgar was contemplating overpowering Abaddon for control of the Forces of Chaos. Whether he's capable of doing such is a unknown.

iproxtaco wrote:The Iron Warriors escaped and built their own little holiday retreat in the Eye of Terror.

thats holiday for you?
ok..

For the Iron Warriors it is. An entire planet they can build into a fortress.

iproxtaco wrote:Great, Solar Macharius obviously did that all by himself, didn't he? Flawed comparison is flawed. He had a silly amount of Guard Regiments and warships.

Yes, solar macharius was great.

Yes, Angron had silly amounts of traitors, mutants, etc etc

Already kind of said, but I doubt that Angron had any support from rebels. He leads a huge horde of mercilless unthinking killers, all he and they care about is killing, there would be little in the way of strategy.
Again though, flawed comparison is flawed, Angron had the support of his Legion and some Daemons, Solar Macharius had the support a LOT of forces, exponentially more than Angron.

EXPONENTIALLY more? WHAT are you talking about? Angron was one of the twenty supreme warrior-god commanders of the entire Imperium, during one of it's two golden ages. Macharius was one of several supreme commanders during an age where the Imperium is clinging to life, and trying not to become extinguished.

Angron commanded 15,000 genetically engineered supersoldiers, equivalent to more than a million regular soldiers, plus more than a million regular soldiers attached to his crusade fleet, plus titan detachments, plus cataphractii, plus knights, plus himself, who would be equivalent AT LEAST to a guard regiment.


@ Magnus, he also got owned by a pair of terminators and a dreadnought, alone.

Hmm. I'm tempted to just shout troll and leave it there. You show base misunderstanding of the discussion. During the Dominion of Fire, Angron did not control his Crusade fleet, he commanded his World Eaters, most of them, anything else is pure speculation.

Just to conclude, it took 100 Grey Knight Terminators to stop Angron and his retinue, of which only 2 survived. It took A Wold Priest, a Wolf Lord, one of which was armed with the weapon of his Primarch, and an extremely powerful Dreadnought to take out Magnus after he had walked through the Fangs defences.

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Omegus wrote:
But if you want an example, check out Magnus after he manifested through one of his captains in Battle for the Fang.

thanks. Don't own Battle of the Fang.

Omegus described what happened pretty well. Magnus simply waded through the Space Wolves defenses without any trouble at all, defenses that had kept his army at bay for days.

iproxtaco wrote:
I suppose, although the ending of one of the Word Bearers books hints that at least one other might take a major interest in the future. Can you guess which one?

Can't, as again, I don't have every book. Maybe a hint?

Spoiler:

Essentially, Lorgar was contemplating overpowering Abaddon for control of the Forces of Chaos. Whether he's capable of doing such is a unknown.

iproxtaco wrote:The Iron Warriors escaped and built their own little holiday retreat in the Eye of Terror.

thats holiday for you?
ok..

For the Iron Warriors it is. An entire planet they can build into a fortress.

iproxtaco wrote:Great, Solar Macharius obviously did that all by himself, didn't he? Flawed comparison is flawed. He had a silly amount of Guard Regiments and warships.

Yes, solar macharius was great.

Yes, Angron had silly amounts of traitors, mutants, etc etc

Already kind of said, but I doubt that Angron had any support from rebels. He leads a huge horde of mercilless unthinking killers, all he and they care about is killing, there would be little in the way of strategy.
Again though, flawed comparison is flawed, Angron had the support of his Legion and some Daemons, Solar Macharius had the support a LOT of forces, exponentially more than Angron.

EXPONENTIALLY more? WHAT are you talking about? Angron was one of the twenty supreme warrior-god commanders of the entire Imperium, during one of it's two golden ages. Macharius was one of several supreme commanders during an age where the Imperium is clinging to life, and trying not to become extinguished.

Angron commanded 15,000 genetically engineered supersoldiers, equivalent to more than a million regular soldiers, plus more than a million regular soldiers attached to his crusade fleet, plus titan detachments, plus cataphractii, plus knights, plus himself, who would be equivalent AT LEAST to a guard regiment.


@ Magnus, he also got owned by a pair of terminators and a dreadnought, alone.

Hmm. I'm tempted to just shout troll and leave it there. You show base misunderstanding of the discussion. During the Dominion of Fire, Angron did not control his Crusade fleet, he commanded his World Eaters, most of them, anything else is pure speculation.

Just to conclude, it took 100 Grey Knight Terminators to stop Angron and his retinue, of which only 2 survived. It took A Wold Priest, a Wolf Lord, one of which was armed with the weapon of his Primarch, and an extremely powerful Dreadnought to take out Magnus after he had walked through the Fangs defences.

:$ I was thinking about the crusade.

Either way, he had 50,000 KB during the dominion of blood.

And I know Primarchs are powerful, I am not disputing that, It is simply a fact that Macharius was as talented a tactician as any of them, but other than that they are so far and above anything else in the fluff other than gods.

iproxtaco wrote:

Spoiler:

Essentially, Lorgar was contemplating overpowering Abaddon for control of the Forces of Chaos. Whether he's capable of doing such is a unknown.

Interesting find.

iproxtaco wrote:Already kind of said, but I doubt that Angron had any support from rebels. He leads a huge horde of mercilless unthinking killers, all he and they care about is killing, there would be little in the way of strategy.
Again though, flawed comparison is flawed, Angron had the support of his Legion and some Daemons, Solar Macharius had the support a LOT of forces, exponentially more than Angron.

Agreed your guess on Macharius forces is flawed.
Solar Macharius had 7 years and conquered 1000 worlds.
Conquered, not kill,maim,burn, like Angron may have done.

First, the demon primarch was stated to have tons of demons at his command, now the IG should be exponentially outnumbering the potentially unlimited numbers of demons?
I'd say Macharius used strategy and basic soldiers of the IG and had a lot of success in a few years.
He got 7 armies ( heeresgruppen ). Each may be some dozen regiments.
Angron had his legion with him ( tens of thousands of WE ), ( demons? ), and 300 years to raze 3 dozen systems. Shall we do the math?

1000 in 7x365 = 2,55 days per world.
36 x ( 5 worlds per system? ) 5 = 180
180 in 300x365 = 608,33 days per world.

So Macharius conquered a world in ~ 2,55 days
Angron razed a world in ~ 608,33 days

Therefore the IG can move, annex, and move on in a few days. A oh so powerful demon primarch is lost to his temper each time he steps on the soil of a planet and takes nearly 2 years to kill everything ( bacteria too maybe? ) on a world.

Seems the overall power of a demon primarch isn't higher than the power of a GFM of the IoM.
Why is that so?
Because the GFM still is backed up by the IoM. A backup the former leader of a Legion of Imperial space Marines had too.

Demonhood may raise the personal power a bit. It does nothing for overall power, its rather counter-productive too as chaos isn't as organized as the formations in the GC were and the infighting gets you a lot of untrustworthy allies.

1hadhq wrote:I think English Assassin said it best.

Thanks! Go me!

English Assassin wrote:The Emperor and the primarchs are written as Homeric heroes, epic, tragic, larger-than-life characters shaped and guided by forces alien to mere mortals; it's pointless - and frankly disingenuous - to expect psychological realism from them. The Great Crusade and Horus Heresy serve the purpose of providing a mythic backdrop - a 'golden age' and a 'war in heaven', to use anthropologists' terms - to the grim, fallen era of Warhammer 40,000's present, and the primarchs serve the dramatic purpose of providing titanic figures in whose shadows the warriors of the M41 fight, and the foci of eschatological prophecies and 'king under the mountain' myths.

The traitor primarchs have done next to nothing of lasting import in the ten thousand years since the heresy - as much as anything because the essentials of the setting's background had been established several years before the primarchs were introduced. The heresy and the primarchs aren't even mentioned in the 1st edition rulebook, and the original Epic Space Marine game, set in M31, provided only sketchy details about the conflict's progress and its resolution. It has been only recently, with the publication of the Horus Heresy novels, that fans have started obsessing over them; unless Games Workshop decide to go all White Wolf and actually destroy their own setting, we won't see them act again, or witness the resolutions to their stories.

I didn't see the part that justified the Emperor being a fool and a, for lack of better term, jerkass. Beyond that, I can expect psychological realmis because the Horus Heresy paints a clear picture of the internal workings of the Primarchs and the Emperor's, providing the reasoning behind their actions. Unless I misunderstand what your point is?

In the Materium. Narratively, they may not be as relevant now, but in-universe, they are very relevant in the Immaterium. Though, I am well aware that the Primarchs won't show up in the near future, in all likelihood.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:Agreed your guess on Macharius forces is flawed.
Solar Macharius had 7 years and conquered 1000 worlds.
Conquered, not kill,maim,burn, like Angron may have done.

First, the demon primarch was stated to have tons of demons at his command, now the IG should be exponentially outnumbering the potentially unlimited numbers of demons?
I'd say Macharius used strategy and basic soldiers of the IG and had a lot of success in a few years.
He got 7 armies ( heeresgruppen ). Each may be some dozen regiments.
Angron had his legion with him ( tens of thousands of WE ), ( demons? ), and 300 years to raze 3 dozen systems. Shall we do the math?

1000 in 7x365 = 2,55 days per world.
36 x ( 5 worlds per system? ) 5 = 180
180 in 300x365 = 608,33 days per world.

So Macharius conquered a world in ~ 2,55 days
Angron razed a world in ~ 608,33 days

Therefore the IG can move, annex, and move on in a few days. A oh so powerful demon primarch is lost to his temper each time he steps on the soil of a planet and takes nearly 2 years to kill everything ( bacteria too maybe? ) on a world.

Seems the overall power of a demon primarch isn't higher than the power of a GFM of the IoM.
Why is that so?
Because the GFM still is backed up by the IoM. A backup the former leader of a Legion of Imperial space Marines had too.

Demonhood may raise the personal power a bit. It does nothing for overall power, its rather counter-productive too as chaos isn't as organized as the formations in the GC were and the infighting gets you a lot of untrustworthy allies.

Angron had 50,000 Khornate Berserkers (Close combat specialists all, and no mention of Daemons). Macharius had seven Army Groups. Now, I don't know what "Army Group" translates to in 40k, but IRL that can be anywhere from like four hundred thousand soldiers to a million, a regiment being a few thousand in number to compare. It also notes that Macharius would often bombard planets from orbit until they submit, and organised system-wide campaigns involving dozens of regiments fighting at once. And do note his men weren't all close combat specialists.

Faulty comparison is faulty. But beyond that, I would agree that Macharius is certainly a better general than Angron is. But his methods didn't all amount to "run towards the enemy and hit them really hard" either, which takes a bit more time to raze a planet compared to the use of long-range weaponry, artillery, or outright orbital bombardment.

Your little equation also failed to take into account space travel.

But the real flaw is that you are not taking into account Macharius is not simply an exceptional Imperial Guard Commander, he is the greatest commander the Imperial Guard has ever seen.

So trying to use Macharius as a standard to discredit the Primarchs is faulty.

Void__Dragon wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Seems the overall power of a demon primarch isn't higher than the power of a GFM of the IoM.
Why is that so?
Because the GFM still is backed up by the IoM. A backup the former leader of a Legion of Imperial space Marines had too.

Demonhood may raise the personal power a bit. It does nothing for overall power, its rather counter-productive too as chaos isn't as organized as the formations in the GC were and the infighting gets you a lot of untrustworthy allies.

Faulty comparison is faulty.

But the real flaw is that you are not taking into account Macharius is not simply an exceptional Imperial Guard Commander, he is the greatest commander the Imperial Guard has ever seen.

So trying to use Macharius as a standard to discredit the Primarchs is faulty.

There is no escape for you.
Call it faulty, flawed whatever you like.

Can't have it both ways.
Either the demon primarchs are measured in pure personal power ( ie their statline ) or in overall power ( ie their influence and their achievements in the background ).
If we count the power we see in the HH series, Primarchs and their Legions had at least as much support as Macharius had.
Got them to conquer what we consider the IoM nowadays in 200 years.
So overall the power of the Primarchs was to concentrated in a few hands and lead to a civil war that left scars across the Galaxy.
Now, these demon primarchs are no longer that powerful. They can go on a rampage, like angron. But it doesn't has the lasting effort as their actions had back in the GC.
If we consider the statline, let me point to the debates in "proposed rules" whenever one proposes rules for Primarchs.
Was there ever any agreement about the level the Primarchs should be put on? Can't remember any consensus there...

Why did I chose Macharius?
Because he is a mortal, has limited time to achieve anything , has limited power, can't just come back from the warp and try again, has only the basic grunts without superpowers ( the IG ) at his command, achieved more in less time, didn't need the favor of any God for it,
and still was awesome.
Isn't poor ol Macharius on a disadvantage when compared to a Primarch?

So he is the perfect example why the ones backing you up on your endeavour are important and the power of a single creature in 40k relies heavily on who has to obey. The iom is able in this example to grant a mortal human enough power to outdo a chaos filled demon primarch. Seems the loyal followers are better off .

Power overall > personal power.

Greatest imperial commander > traitor primarch

The traitor Primarchs also looked down on the humans they should protect. Ends up they are outperformed by said humans....

This is a discussion that can go on for a millennium or longer. In my opinion, Chaos won. Not because the rebel primarchs are "alive" and the loyalist dead, but more because of what the state of the Empire has become.

Look to the histories and the books. Before the heresy, mankind was advancing, not only out into space, but technologically, and intellectually.

Now, the nothing better personifies The Imperium, than the Emperor himself. A corpse that simply hasn't died yet, clinging to what little it has left and slowly decaying at a snails pace.

Innovation has become heresy and independent thought is anathema.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: and as for the Primarchs themselves, I think that Ruven (formerly of the Night Lords) put it best, when he described them as not being better than humanity, but humanity magnified.

"all of mankind's greatest attributes balanced by its greatest flaws. For every triumph or flash of preternatural genius, there was a crushing defeat or another step deeper on the descent into madness."

Ferg wrote:This is a discussion that can go on for a millennium or longer. In my opinion, Chaos won. Not because the rebel primarchs are "alive" and the loyalist dead, but more because of what the state of the Empire has become.

Look to the histories and the books. Before the heresy, mankind was advancing, not only out into space, but technologically, and intellectually.

Now, the nothing better personifies The Imperium, than the Emperor himself. A corpse that simply hasn't died yet, clinging to what little it has left and slowly decaying at a snails pace.

Innovation has become heresy and independent thought is anathema.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: and as for the Primarchs themselves, I think that Ruven (formerly of the Night Lords) put it best, when he described them as not being better than humanity, but humanity magnified.

"all of mankind's greatest attributes balanced by its greatest flaws. For every triumph or flash of preternatural genius, there was a crushing defeat or another step deeper on the descent into madness."

Except that chaos is now led by a certain armless failure.

Armless maybe, failure? Personal opinion.

1hadhq wrote:There is no escape for you.
Call it faulty, flawed whatever you like.

I will indeed call it faulty and flawed, because that's what it is.

1hadhq wrote:Can't have it both ways.
Either the demon primarchs are measured in pure personal power ( ie their statline ) or in overall power ( ie their influence and their achievements in the background ).
If we count the power we see in the HH series, Primarchs and their Legions had at least as much support as Macharius had.
Got them to conquer what we consider the IoM nowadays in 200 years.
So overall the power of the Primarchs was to concentrated in a few hands and lead to a civil war that left scars across the Galaxy.
Now, these demon primarchs are no longer that powerful. They can go on a rampage, like angron. But it doesn't has the lasting effort as their actions had back in the GC.
If we consider the statline, let me point to the debates in "proposed rules" whenever one proposes rules for Primarchs.
Was there ever any agreement about the level the Primarchs should be put on? Can't remember any consensus there...

In the Horus Heresy series? They absolutely had as much, probably more, support.

Are they not? They can now bend reality to their whim, and command a force greater and more powerful than the Imperium of Man could dream of. In the Warp of course. You don't seem to realise how much power it takes to summon a Daemon Primarch even partially, it's not something that can be done at the drop of a hat.

No official statline has been released, but IMO Daemon Primarchs should easily be stronger than the Greater Daemons that serve them, and if you consider the Horus Heresy series, Magnus was capable of destroying Titans personally. But I digress.

1hadhq wrote:Why did I chose Macharius?
Because he is a mortal, has limited time to achieve anything , has limited power, can't just come back from the warp and try again, has only the basic grunts without superpowers ( the IG ) at his command, achieved more in less time, didn't need the favor of any God for it,
and still was awesome.
Isn't poor ol Macharius on a disadvantage when compared to a Primarch?

So he is the perfect example why the ones backing you up on your endeavour are important and the power of a single creature in 40k relies heavily on who has to obey. The iom is able in this example to grant a mortal human enough power to outdo a chaos filled demon primarch. Seems the loyal followers are better off .

Not really. If you really want to compare achievements, the Traitor Primarchs laid the Imperium low, and now the Imperium is nothing more than a rotting corpse that doesn't know it's dead yet. But beyond that, they fight wars in the Warp that are, as I have said before, very relevant in-universe to the galaxy. You continue to confuse narrative importance with in-universe importance.

The loyal Primarchs are dead or missing. Yes, much better off. Right.

1hadhq wrote:Power overall > personal power.

Greatest imperial commander > traitor primarch

The traitor Primarchs also looked down on the humans they should protect. Ends up they are outperformed by said humans....

Horus is a traitor Primarch, and his achievements as a traitor far outweigh anything Macharius has done.

There were official stat lines for Daemon Princes in 2nd edition. Considering those were humans that were elevated to daemonhood, Primarchs that did the same should be that much stronger. I'll see if I can find my old book.

Let's see, Doombreed, one of Khorne's first:

Movement 6, WS 10, BS 9, S 7, T 8, W 8, I 10, A 7, Ld 12

Axe of Khorne (adds +1 to the strength above, and deals D3 wounds per wound inflicted)
Rod of Khorne (extra CCW that makes psykers in base to base lose D3 wounds each turn)
Chaos Armor (super terminator armor, basically, 2+ save on 2d6 before modifiers)
Collar of Khorne (immune to psychic powers and force weapons)
Praise of Khorne (may re-roll failed armor saves)
Terror
Flight

I would imagine a Daemon Primarch would have 10s across the board.

Void__Dragon wrote:

I will indeed call it faulty and flawed, because that's what it is.
.

No. But YMMV.

Void__Dragon wrote:


They can now bend reality to their whim, and command a force greater and more powerful than the Imperium of Man could dream of. In the Warp of course.

Who cares for the warp?
Primarchs belong to both realms. Go share your take on their power in the material realm or stop this nonsense of them beeing superawesomesauce in some magic pony land.

They can bend whatever they please in their hideout. Doesn't matter as they are stuck there.
You seem to think the demon primarchs influence the outcome in the warp a lot. But maybe all these named GD are the important ones and the demon primarchs are just there for entertainment of their masters? Codex CD doesn't tell us if any of the GD obey to a demon-primarchs wishes. Demons are splinters of their "God" , aren't they?

Void__Dragon wrote: If you really want to compare achievements, the Traitor Primarchs laid the Imperium low, and now the Imperium is nothing more than a rotting corpse that doesn't know it's dead yet. But beyond that, they fight wars in the Warp that are, as I have said before, very relevant in-universe to the galaxy. You continue to confuse narrative importance with in-universe importance.

Too bad it was the fact Horus had half of the imperial military behind him, and not the "might" of the traitor primarchs.
His position enabled him to send most of the loyalists off....and still they didn't oppose the loyalists not one on one but had to go for 3:1 usually... ( istvaan, terra, etc ). Horus himself said they had to act fast, before the loyalists could gather.
Shows their achievements pretty much. Even in a advantageous position, they had to aim for a short fight as they would have lost if they had to oppose the full might of the imperium. When they lost to an outnumbered force, they ran like the cowards they are.

In universe, GW could drop every single traitor primarch and it would change nothing.
They are disabled "in universe" .

Void__Dragon wrote:Horus is a traitor Primarch, and his achievements as a traitor far outweigh anything Macharius has done.

Who is still remembered? who got betrayed and lost everything?
There is no doubt who achieved nothing to be proud of.

"Proud of"? Certainly not, otherwise the alternative ending where Horus wins wouldn't have him so overwhelmed with guilt and regret that he destroys the universe.

Then again, if we consider the events of the BL HH series, Horus made a conscious decision to betray his father, so perhaps destroying his father's vision in a fit of pique/spite is cause for pride enough.

Void__Dragon wrote:

No official statline has been released, but IMO Daemon Primarchs should easily be stronger than the Greater Daemons that serve them

Greater Daemons do NOT serve Daemon Primarchs. At all. If you're going to use the thing with Angron at armaggedon, then remember it didn't ever say they served him, it said he was standing alongside them.

Now MAYBE Angron, being the most powerful traitor primarch, is the equal or slight superior of a standard khornate GD, but daemons like An'ggrath and Doombreed would still be quite enormously more powerful than him, and An'ggrath actually has a statline.

Same goes for the other daemon lords.

Daemon Princes are usually above greater daemons in hierarchy, although there are a few stand-out GDs that very highly favored. That's why the daemon that corrupted/possessed Fulgrim became a Daemon Prince rather than a Greater Daemon.

Doombreed is a Daemon Prince, not a Greater Daemon. Way to shoot your own argument in the foot.

We have an example of a non-daemon Primarch owning a Greater Daemon. They would only become more powerful upon achieving daemonhood. Again, your argument fails and fails hard.

Omegus wrote:Daemon Princes are usually above greater daemons in hierarchy, although there are a few stand-out GDs that very highly favored. That's why the daemon that corrupted/possessed Fulgrim became a Daemon Prince rather than a Greater Daemon.

Doombreed is a Daemon Prince, not a Greater Daemon. Way to shoot your own argument in the foot.

We have an example of a non-daemon Primarch owning a Greater Daemon. They would only become more powerful upon achieving daemonhood. Again, your argument fails and fails hard.

Actually, GD are above Daemon Princes, by a huge margin. Only daemon princes who also happen to be primarchs are slightly more powerful than GD.

I know Doombreed is a daemon prince. If you look a my post that YOU referrenced, you'll notice I said "Daemons like An'ggrath and Doombreed".

Sanguinius, head and shoulder the most physically powerful primarch, defeated a GD who had previously trumped him and knocked him un-conscious, by dropping him (à la cheating hard).

The fail is in your court, sir.

Source? Citation? Anything at all that isn't pulled from the crevices of your rectum?

Doombread, N'Kari, et al (i.e. Daemon Princes important enough for us to know the name of, which would include Primarchs) are significantly stronger than Greater Daemons. Fail 1.

You have no proof or citation or any sort of reference for Sanguinius being the most physically powerful Primarch. At all. I informed you of your misconception on that point in the other thread. Fail 2.

Sanguinius defeated the Bloodthirster by snapping its back over his knee. Fail 3.

Man, you just keep racking up the fail.

im2randomghgh wrote:Sanguinius, head and shoulder the most physically powerful primarch,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it stated that Ferrus Manus and Vulkan were the most physically powerful primarchs, at least in terms of sheer brute strength? I certainly know of no source that suggests that Sanguinius is the most physically powerful Primarch.

FinalAnswer wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Sanguinius, head and shoulder the most physically powerful primarch,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it stated that Ferrus Manus and Vulkan were the most physically powerful primarchs, at least in terms of sheer brute strength? I certainly know of no source that suggests that Sanguinius is the most physically powerful Primarch.

Martial skill is what I was referring to.

Omegus wrote:Source? Citation? Anything at all that isn't pulled from the crevices of your rectum?

Doombread, N'Kari, et al (i.e. Daemon Princes important enough for us to know the name of, which would include Primarchs) are significantly stronger than Greater Daemons. Fail 1.

You have no proof or citation or any sort of reference for Sanguinius being the most physically powerful Primarch. At all. I informed you of your misconception on that point in the other thread. Fail 2.

Sanguinius defeated the Bloodthirster by snapping its back over his knee. Fail 3.

Man, you just keep racking up the fail.

Doombreed, N'kari etc. ARE more powerful than GD, but they are the single most powerful daemon princes, including the primarchs. Doombreed was Khorne's FIRST daemon prince, and his most favoured. Think about it, a daemon prince older than Tzeentch. Ur ump-teenth fail.

Sanguinius killed this thing. This thing that had killed 500 terminators, compared to Magnus who was defeated by three terminators and a dreadnought. Ur fail.

3. OK this was MINOR fail on my part, I was remembering the Sanguinor's thing.

im2randomghgh wrote:

FinalAnswer wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Sanguinius, head and shoulder the most physically powerful primarch,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it stated that Ferrus Manus and Vulkan were the most physically powerful primarchs, at least in terms of sheer brute strength? I certainly know of no source that suggests that Sanguinius is the most physically powerful Primarch.

Martial skill is what I was referring to.

I don't really see anything to suggest that only due to Sanguinius' martial skills could he kill that Greater Demon, since said Greater Demon had already attacked him, and an injured Sanguinius proceeded to pretty handily wreck it by breaking its back over his knee, which is something Vulkan and Ferrus Manus could do with relative ease (Vulkan was described as having batted tanks aside as if they were children's toys). Most primarchs, imo, could kill a greater demon, considering we have primarchs like Fulgrim busting Wraithlords and throttling Avatars, and Magnus destroying Titans. It is only common sense that a Daemon Primarch would generally be much stronger then the average Greater Demon.

Doombreed was not the first and most favored, but merely one of Khorne's first. You are making stuff up.

Although Khorne was the first to awaken, it wasn't by a large margin. We have no specific timeline of these events, so claiming Doombreed is older than Tzeench is pure conjecture, also known as making stuff up.

Magnus was never defeated by three terminators and a dreadnought. In BotF, he was stomping on the Chapter Master while having faded to the point that he was transparent and wind disturbed his outline. His manifestation was brief in likely the most daemon-hostile environment in the Imperium, and he still stomped face. You are again, yes you guessed it, making stuff up.

Also, "ur"? Really? We've degenerated to text speak now? I'm embarrassed for you, truly.

English Assassin wrote:

Uhlan wrote:There is no glory in becoming a pawn of Chaos.

To suggest that the traitor primarchs have come out on top because they're still living is to ignore what they have become and the lives they live. I'm sure it isn't an altogether joyous experience no matter how 'cool' it might seem to be a demon.

Remember as well that Fulgrim is trapped within his own body by a demon. Forced to live out his existence in that way does not seem like a victory to me.

And importantly, also the glorious possibilities forsaken when they chose the paths they did. Had they great crusade continued and succeeded, they would indeed have become rulers of the galaxy.

Void__Dragon wrote:Angron seems like he's having a pretty good time.

He seems very much to be the exception, however. The remainder of the traitor primarchs seem (though of course subsequent fluff may contradict this) to have achieved little or nothing in the millennia since their ascension. A common inference from their absence from the spotlight is that, having become essentially immortal creatures of the empyrean, they have grown distanced from mortal concerns and no longer feel the motivation they once did to act in the physical world.

Magnus is a demon prince and rules over a planet,peturablo rules a planet, Angron is a deamom prince and rules a world, Mprtarion is a deamon prince and rules a world, Lorgar is a deamon and rules a world, and although fulgrim is a shadow of himself and all that jazz, hes also a deamon prince who owns his own world. Thats almost a 70% world ruling rate, with almost all of them deamon princes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Omegus wrote:Daemon Princes are usually above greater daemons in hierarchy, although there are a few stand-out GDs that very highly favored. That's why the daemon that corrupted/possessed Fulgrim became a Daemon Prince rather than a Greater Daemon.

Doombreed is a Daemon Prince, not a Greater Daemon. Way to shoot your own argument in the foot.

We have an example of a non-daemon Primarch owning a Greater Daemon. They would only become more powerful upon achieving daemonhood. Again, your argument fails and fails hard.

Actually, GD are above Daemon Princes, by a huge margin. Only daemon princes who also happen to be primarchs are slightly more powerful than GD.

I know Doombreed is a daemon prince. If you look a my post that YOU referrenced, you'll notice I said "Daemons like An'ggrath and Doombreed".

Sanguinius, head and shoulder the most physically powerful primarch, defeated a GD who had previously trumped him and knocked him un-conscious, by dropping him (à la cheating hard).

The fail is in your court, sir.

If sanguinius was the most powerful primarch, then how did Horus kill him?

Jollydevil wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

Uhlan wrote:There is no glory in becoming a pawn of Chaos.

To suggest that the traitor primarchs have come out on top because they're still living is to ignore what they have become and the lives they live. I'm sure it isn't an altogether joyous experience no matter how 'cool' it might seem to be a demon.

Remember as well that Fulgrim is trapped within his own body by a demon. Forced to live out his existence in that way does not seem like a victory to me.

And importantly, also the glorious possibilities forsaken when they chose the paths they did. Had they great crusade continued and succeeded, they would indeed have become rulers of the galaxy.

Void__Dragon wrote:Angron seems like he's having a pretty good time.

He seems very much to be the exception, however. The remainder of the traitor primarchs seem (though of course subsequent fluff may contradict this) to have achieved little or nothing in the millennia since their ascension. A common inference from their absence from the spotlight is that, having become essentially immortal creatures of the empyrean, they have grown distanced from mortal concerns and no longer feel the motivation they once did to act in the physical world.

Magnus is a demon prince and rules over a planet,peturablo rules a planet, Angron is a deamom prince and rules a world, Mprtarion is a deamon prince and rules a world, Lorgar is a deamon and rules a world, and although fulgrim is a shadow of himself and all that jazz, hes also a deamon prince who owns his own world. Thats almost a 70% world ruling rate, with almost all of them deamon princes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Omegus wrote:Daemon Princes are usually above greater daemons in hierarchy, although there are a few stand-out GDs that very highly favored. That's why the daemon that corrupted/possessed Fulgrim became a Daemon Prince rather than a Greater Daemon.

Doombreed is a Daemon Prince, not a Greater Daemon. Way to shoot your own argument in the foot.

We have an example of a non-daemon Primarch owning a Greater Daemon. They would only become more powerful upon achieving daemonhood. Again, your argument fails and fails hard.

Actually, GD are above Daemon Princes, by a huge margin. Only daemon princes who also happen to be primarchs are slightly more powerful than GD.

I know Doombreed is a daemon prince. If you look a my post that YOU referrenced, you'll notice I said "Daemons like An'ggrath and Doombreed".

Sanguinius, head and shoulder the most physically powerful primarch, defeated a GD who had previously trumped him and knocked him un-conscious, by dropping him (à la cheating hard).

The fail is in your court, sir.

If sanguinius was the most powerful primarch, then how did Horus kill him?

Not saying he was the most powerful, as I have no proof, but Horus killed him because he was backed by all four chaos gods. In a fight before the heresy it would have been a close fight.

Jollydevil wrote:Magnus is a demon prince and rules over a planet,peturablo rules a planet, Angron is a deamom prince and rules a world, Mprtarion is a deamon prince and rules a world, Lorgar is a deamon and rules a world, and although fulgrim is a shadow of himself and all that jazz, hes also a deamon prince who owns his own world. Thats almost a 70% world ruling rate, with almost all of them deamon princes.

World < Galaxy.

Nicholas wrote:Not saying he was the most powerful, as I have no proof, but Horus killed him because he was backed by all four chaos gods. In a fight before the heresy it would have been a close fight.

Ah, so the favor of the Chaos Gods gives you more power? Shocking. Truly.