Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

1hadhq wrote:yep. R.I.P.

Not an existance in unrest as a cartoon of yourself.

A kickass cartoon where you get to command vast immortal armies and are undying. Beats being dead.

1hadhq wrote:Bend and shape a hellhole filled with Demons,
- instead of shaping a galaxy wide empire, driving the xeno and the non-compliant before you?
Giving orders to the insane, the betrayers and the lost,
- instead of a well oiled fighting machine backed up by nigh limitless ressources ?

I doubt I'd give up on the GC.

The uberpowerfulness is a lie. The Traitor Primarchs are all disabled. Maybe you can scare kittys or little kids with them.

Bend and shape a hellhole filled with incredibly powerful entities formed from thought at your beck and call more like. The glory of the Great Crusade is nothing before that of Chaos.

Well-oiled fighting machine? Were it so, then the Heresy would not have happened. The Horus Heresy occurred because the Imperium's leader was incompetent, arrogant, a bit of a dick, and foolish. And the resources of the Imperium have never been as limitless as the resources of Chaos.

1hadhq wrote:Who cares for him ? Look down. Do you spot a blue helmet?

In a discussion about which set of Primarchs had it worse, I would think we should care for him.

Although, Fulgrim, the Primarch, not the Daemon, also had a raw deal.

Omegus wrote:That wasn't directed at you, but in any case, there is plenty of BL fluff that states the ultimate victory for Chaos is subsuming the material realm. Every soul would not be destroyed, but rather would be like the examples we've seen of daemon-ruled planets, where there are plenty of mortal species living in slavery. The best example can probably be seen in the Grey Knights omnibus, but even Codex/IA material describes mortal beings living on daemon planets. See Mortarion's digs, for example, it is a twisted reflection of his origin planet.

The whole reason the brutal oppression of the Imperium is necessary, because unchecked psychic development of the human race would result in another birth of a Chaos god, one to make Slaanesh look like a fart by comparison.

well yes and no. to some degree i agree with you but chaos is smarter then that. the imperium as is serves them better then the option you describe, and as written in the Horus heresy series. Slaves living on daemon worlds eventually become pawns to the gods or die, thereby making them a less then permanent asset. Nevertheless not all of the warps entities think rationally so might not see this as a bad thing....

Basically there's the view that the powers conspire and the one that lets you believe there's no logic or reason behind the warps major players. that they simply..are. Besides i think its likely that powers like Tzeentch change their mind constantly and really have little use for a long term strategy as to where the souls are coming from. the chaos powers are fickle at best after all...

I still don't see the problem with omnipresent Chaos. Humans will still breed like rats, regardless of their living conditions. A daemon world can't be much worse than a Hive, honestly, except there are all those puritans ruining your fun.

As for Tzeench, considering he orchestrated the entire Heresy from the moment the Primarchs were scattered in the Warp, I don't think we can accuse him of being ADD. That assumes he can only focus on one thing at a time, but really, a creature like Tzeench is far beyond our concept of attention span. Part of him could follow the strands of a plot for thousands of years, while other parts engage in whatever else.

Omegus wrote:I still don't see the problem with omnipresent Chaos. Humans will still breed like rats, regardless of their living conditions. A daemon world can't be much worse than a Hive, honestly, except there are all those puritans ruining your fun.

breed yes, but chaos poisons you slowly in the real world and i would suspect that once in the warp your toast faster then usual. most of them would be raving mad in a matter of minutes and the rest would find other things to do that are also very unhealthy in general. i dont see the warp as being a nice farming zone

the hives are a hellish place yes, but its real none the less, and therefore more sustainable.

Well, there are several examples of just that in BL books. They are certainly unhappy, but they are hardly "raving mad". Humans are remarkably adaptive, so if you're born on a Warp world, you're probably used to daemonic craziness, at least to the point of not losing it the first time you see a bloodletter.

Wonder if this was because the emperor closed all the KFC's and horus got well annoyed and the need for 12oclock chicken made him go mental. The colonel as the primarch of the finger licking chickens.
Things was getting abit angry so thought this would calm things down abit.
Peace heretics. X

spudkins wrote:Wonder if this was because the emperor closed all the KFC's and horus got well annoyed and the need for 12oclock chicken made him go mental. The colonel as the primarch of the finger licking chickens.
Things was getting abit angry so thought this would calm things down abit.
Peace heretics. X

No, this is what really happened:

Omegus wrote:
As for Tzeench, considering he orchestrated the entire Heresy

Tzeentch doesn't plan anything. He just does things. There's no ultimate plan for Tzeentch.

I have wrote it before, I will write it again. Chaos always wins! Do you think that the Inquisition destroying entire planets and sectors because of the possibility of taint is not winning. What could be more Chaotic. A constant state of war and killing. Entire Imperium planets only exist to train killers.

Chaos wins.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Omegus wrote:
As for Tzeench, considering he orchestrated the entire Heresy

Tzeentch doesn't plan anything. He just does things. There's no ultimate plan for Tzeentch.

Of course, that's just what wants you to think. All according to plan...

Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:What are your guys' thoughts?

Chaos lost because the Emperor protects.

Brother Coa wrote:

Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:What are your guys' thoughts?

Chaos lost because the Emperor protects.

Obvious Troll is obvious. Although to be honest it's hard to tell with you Coa.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Omegus wrote:That wasn't directed at you, but in any case, there is plenty of BL fluff that states the ultimate victory for Chaos is subsuming the material realm. Every soul would not be destroyed, but rather would be like the examples we've seen of daemon-ruled planets, where there are plenty of mortal species living in slavery. The best example can probably be seen in the Grey Knights omnibus, but even Codex/IA material describes mortal beings living on daemon planets. See Mortarion's digs, for example, it is a twisted reflection of his origin planet.

Is this the goal of the Chaos Gods or their unwitting servants? Chaos does not care who rules the material realm so long as they have worship and souls. It may the objective of the Daemon Primarchs and Chaos Astartes, but the Gods would prefer an eternity of war.

The whole reason the brutal oppression of the Imperium is necessary, because unchecked psychic development of the human race would result in another birth of a Chaos god, one to make Slaanesh look like a fart by comparison.

Agreed.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:What are your guys' thoughts?

Chaos lost because the Emperor protects.

Obvious Troll is obvious. Although to be honest it's hard to tell with you Coa.

And obvious joke is obvious joke. Some people...

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:What are your guys' thoughts?

Chaos lost because the Emperor protects.

Obvious Troll is obvious. Although to be honest it's hard to tell with you Coa.

And obvious joke is obvious joke. Some people...

No seriously, either you were trolling or you were being serious. Sometimes it can very hard to distinguish with things you post about the Imperium. So which one was it?

iproxtaco wrote:
No seriously, either you were trolling or you were being serious. Sometimes it can very hard to distinguish with things you post about the Imperium. So which one was it?

Seriously, why are you trolling me iproxtaco?
Stop that.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No seriously, either you were trolling or you were being serious. Sometimes it can very hard to distinguish with things you post about the Imperium. So which one was it?

Seriously, why are you trolling me iproxtaco?
Stop that.

Still going are we? Simply put, the statement "Chaos lost because the Emperor protects." is wrong, and either a very weak attempt at trolling or another of your typical remarks about your favorite faction.

I think this all hinges on how we view Chaos and daemonhood.

If you think that Chaos is a monstrous force that corrupts through lies and then places its followers into an eternal living hell (plague marine anyone?) then the demon primarchs have lost big time.

If you think that Chaos is somehow liberating, that it is honest and essentially the frreing of the base nature to act as it wishes then turning to Chaos is embracing one's nature and freeing ones spirit. This viewpoint would see the plague marine as a winner who has embraced something essential and vital not a plague crippled leper.

I haven't expressed that as clearly as I would like but I hope you get the point!

It has some echoes of the positions of say satanists versus those who follow some Abrahamic faith.

Remember that from the point of view of the Dark Gods and their servants, these gifts are blessings. Nurgle would think that being a Plague marine is a blessing, as would the Plague Marine.

iproxtaco wrote:
Still going are we? Simply put, the statement "Chaos lost because the Emperor protects." is wrong, and either a very weak attempt at trolling or another of your typical remarks about your favorite faction.

It was a joke, and you take it seriously

Man, you need to get laid down a little...

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Still going are we? Simply put, the statement "Chaos lost because the Emperor protects." is wrong, and either a very weak attempt at trolling or another of your typical remarks about your favorite faction.

It was a joke, and you take it seriously

Man, you need to get laid down a little...

So you were trolling then, like I've been saying for the last ten posts. That's a change of pace from your usual rants.

Wait, how can joking be considered a trolling?

Brother Coa wrote:Wait, how can joking be considered a trolling?

When that 'joke' is difficult to perceive as humorous and is particularly inflammatory in nature. Basically, it could have started an argument on that topic, since it was both wrong and fanboy-ish.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Wait, how can joking be considered a trolling?

When that 'joke' is difficult to perceive as humorous and is particularly inflammatory in nature. Basically, it could have started an argument on that topic, since it was both wrong and fanboy-ish.

But it was a joke for Emperor's sake.... Do I need to sing ( joke ) every time I am joking?

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Wait, how can joking be considered a trolling?

When that 'joke' is difficult to perceive as humorous and is particularly inflammatory in nature. Basically, it could have started an argument on that topic, since it was both wrong and fanboy-ish.

But it was a joke for Emperor's sake.... Do I need to sing ( joke ) every time I am joking?

You have a reputation, Coa, for being slightly too involved with your chosen faction. I certainly didn't perceive it as a joke, but that you were trolling, or you really meant it.

So what if I am a follower of Ecclesiarchy? That doesn't mean that I can't joke whom time to time. And only for you I will write ( joke ) when I am joking.

Brother Coa wrote:So what if I am a follower of Ecclesiarchy? That doesn't mean that I can't joke whom time to time. And only for you I will write ( joke ) when I am joking. ( I always knew you Brits lacked bone for humor. To much serious about everything... ).

Now you're not really making any sense. Be a follower of whatever organization or religion you want to be, that doesn't stop you having a reputation for being an huge Imperium fan and it certainly doesn't stop your post from being potentially inflammatory.

So being a follower of Ecclesiarchy = Huge Imperial fan?

And I am trying to hold myself lately... you must give me credit for that.

Brother Coa wrote:So being a follower of Ecclesiarchy = Huge Imperial fan?

And I am trying to hold myself lately... you must give me credit for that.

Notice how I treated your beliefs and the fact that you're an Imperium fan separately. There's plenty of posts that are clearly driven by bias. I don't find it a problem, but it made any 'jokes' difficult to discern.

Like I said, I will from now on type ( joke ) for every time I am joking. Just for you...

Brother Coa wrote: That doesn't mean that I can't joke whom time to time. And only for you I will write ( joke ) when I am joking..

iproxtaco wrote:Now you're not really making any sense

I hope I don't disturb you two on your honeymoon....

...if I post a reply to someone else.

Void__Dragon wrote:

A kickass cartoon where you get to command vast immortal armies and are undying. Beats being dead.

Vast immortal armies?
Your thinking of Necrons here, not chaos.

The days of the primarchs are over, ( on usability in the fluff of M41 ), their age long gone and certainly the choice of some to vanish
( thus deemed MIA / KIA ) before their status as some sort of demi-god would turn out bad deserves more respect than the selfish bunch of demon primarchs who, just exist somewhere to do something and win/ lose something but it wouldn't matter if they died as nothing would change.

Wait, forgot nowadays they are used to cut names into them. In my time, we used trees for that.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Bend and shape a hellhole filled with incredibly powerful entities formed from thought at your beck and call more like. The glory of the Great Crusade is nothing before that of Chaos.

Any source for this incredible power? I mean, if they had so much power, they wouldn't obey...
Otoh, are you sure its not an illusion? Formed from thought, yes things formed like that tend to be unreal.
But, lets stick with your idea here, and these entities are...
What are they? Demons are formed by their "gods". Demon Primarchs form what type of creature? The same as greater Demons? Or demon Princes? Or just a random figure?
If it would be that easy to have your own followship, Why should they have Abby have all the fun on the other side?

The glory of the Great Crusade gets whole series, the glory of chaos just a few novels. Now consider who isn't so glorious.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Well-oiled fighting machine? Were it so, then the Heresy would not have happened. The Horus Heresy occurred because the Imperium's leader was incompetent, arrogant, a bit of a dick, and foolish. And the resources of the Imperium have never been as limitless as the resources of Chaos.

The Heresy was needed for the story.
If the leader of the Imperium has those flaws you claim, the chaos primarchs are the epitome of their fathers flaws.
In the Emperor, things may be balanced, in his sons, the same may become condensed until nothing more is left and balance is lost.

Void__Dragon wrote:
In a discussion about which set of Primarchs had it worse, I would think we should care for him.

Although, Fulgrim, the Primarch, not the Daemon, also had a raw deal.

Gullyman already has too much showtime.

Fulgrim is his own audience, we will see if this eternal POW has it worse than his brothers.
- Ferrus - presumed dead. without a head, life isn't fun.
- Sanguinius - Dead. Was his own choice, so maybe not unhappy of it.
- Khan, Corax, Russ, etc - MIA . No fluff, no way to compare their fate to Fulgrims fate.
- Vulkan - left on his own ( MIA? ), but return possible. If he hasn't run into extreme trouble, hes better off than most of his brehtren.
- Dorn - Dead. - Like sanguinius, accepted his duty.
- Gulliman - in the freezer. do we know if it hurts?
- Lion. sleeping, thus one of the better fates. Stored away, but maybe no chance on a reload.
- Horus. - erased from existance in both realms. Worst fate. He was a blind fool who didn't see it coming.
- curze.- Dead. this obsession with vindication ... got him over the edge. Sanity lost.
- angron - always angry. Yay. Blandness is his name and violence his game. Lost to a temper is not worse than dead?
- Magnus. is busy. like that archwizard sitting in his tower and scheming of his return and vengeance on those who wronged him. Good?
- Perturabo - sitting there - and-- is he still alive? Didn't move for 10 millenia...
- mortarion. - another out of buisness character that is just important enough to have a line in a codex. Back into the fog of oblivion.
- lorgar - caught in writing pamphlets. Ruined it for his brothers, deserves the worst fate. But his empoyers may feel entertainent enough to keep him around for a while.
- alpharius / omegon. Who is the dead one and how?
- fulgrim - unable to act himself, the others are better off as he can't alter his fate.