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1hadhq wrote:Who cares for the warp?
Primarchs belong to both realms. Go share your take on their power in the material realm or stop this nonsense of them beeing superawesomesauce in some magic pony land.
They can bend whatever they please in their hideout. Doesn't matter as they are stuck there.
You seem to think the demon primarchs influence the outcome in the warp a lot. But maybe all these named GD are the important ones and the demon primarchs are just there for entertainment of their masters? Codex CD doesn't tell us if any of the GD obey to a demon-primarchs wishes. Demons are splinters of their "God" , aren't they?
I'd imagine the Imperium cares quite a bit for their means of FTL travel and the home of their greatest enemy. I already told you Daemon Primarchs can't manifest often in the Materium. But when Angron did manifest, he did more damage to the Imperium than most. Magnus also effectively killed the hope of the Space Wolf geneseed being fixed.
They are indeed stuck there, but in many ways, that doesn't bother them. And they do. Angron had 12 Greater Daemons answering to him during the First War for Armageddon, the Daemon Primarchs are among the most favored and powerful of the Gods' servants.
Too bad it was the fact Horus had half of the imperial military behind him, and not the "might" of the traitor primarchs.
His position enabled him to send most of the loyalists off....and still they didn't oppose the loyalists not one on one but had to go for 3:1 usually... ( istvaan, terra, etc ). Horus himself said they had to act fast, before the loyalists could gather.
Shows their achievements pretty much. Even in a advantageous position, they had to aim for a short fight as they would have lost if they had to oppose the full might of the imperium. When they lost to an outnumbered force, they ran like the cowards they are.
In universe, GW could drop every single traitor primarch and it would change nothing.
They are disabled "in universe" .
Said Imperial Military defected to Chaos, and much of it still lives and fights for Chaos today, and Chaos is constantly recruiting. And yes, the might of the traitor Primarchs played a part, cutting huge swaths in the Loyalists personally, and some undermining them not with might, but guile, such as Perturabo, Alpharius, and as you said, Horus. What's that? Horus used strategy and tactical prowess to gain an advantage in a war? How dare he!?
They fled after Horus died because with their strongest gone, they couldn't oppose the full might of the returning Loyalists, which is kind of true, since the Ultramarines outnumbers most of the Traitor Legions combined.
Who is still remembered? who got betrayed and lost everything?
There is no doubt who achieved nothing to be proud of.
Oh, certainly, Horus and the Traitor's actions are reprehensible, largely due to the corrupting nature of Chaos. I don't dispute that, I only believe the Daemon Primarchs got the better deal compared to the Loyalists.
And I also see that we will never convince the other of our view, would you agree to disagree?
Jollydevil wrote:Magnus is a demon prince and rules over a planet,peturablo rules a planet, Angron is a deamom prince and rules a world, Mprtarion is a deamon prince and rules a world, Lorgar is a deamon and rules a world, and although fulgrim is a shadow of himself and all that jazz, hes also a deamon prince who owns his own world. Thats almost a 70% world ruling rate, with almost all of them deamon princes.
World < Galaxy.
Alright?
I dont understand where youre going with this.
"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons."
im2randomghgh wrote:Greater Daemons do NOT serve Daemon Primarchs. At all. If you're going to use the thing with Angron at armaggedon, then remember it didn't ever say they served him, it said he was standing alongside them.
Now MAYBE Angron, being the most powerful traitor primarch, is the equal or slight superior of a standard khornate GD, but daemons like An'ggrath and Doombreed would still be quite enormously more powerful than him, and An'ggrath actually has a statline.
Same goes for the other daemon lords.
Oh come on man this gak again?
The Space Wolves codex referred to twelve Bloodthirsters as Angron's lieutenants. They served him.
No, all Daemon Primarchs are stronger, Jesus Christ dude, Njal Stormcaller, "merely" a Rune Priest, killed a Bloodthirster personally. A Primarch definitely could. gak, Magnus the Red has popped Titans dwarfing Warlords on at least two occasions, and Fulgrim runs around beating up Avatars of Khaine. An'ggrath might be more powerful, but until we get an official word from the fluff it's a moot point.
I'd imagine the Imperium cares quite a bit for their means of FTL travel and the home of their greatest enemy. I already told you Daemon Primarchs can't manifest often in the Materium. But when Angron did manifest, he did more damage to the Imperium than most. Magnus also effectively killed the hope of the Space Wolf geneseed being fixed.
They are indeed stuck there, but in many ways, that doesn't bother them. And they do. Angron had 12 Greater Daemons answering to him during the First War for Armageddon, the Daemon Primarchs are among the most favored and powerful of the Gods' servants.
Without chaos, using the Empyrean would be safer so lets get rid of them. Like the codex chaos demons told us, let one of these "gods" win and chaos ends. Looking forward to any of them having such sucess ( maybe with a little help from a third party muhaha ).
See, I can follow your circular arguments... until hell freezes.
Nobody said Angron did less than other traitor primarchs, the 12 greater demons may had orders from khorne to obey for a while and who knows if they are not free of this obligation after they were banished ?
Void__Dragon wrote: Said Imperial Military defected to Chaos, and much of it still lives and fights for Chaos today, and Chaos is constantly recruiting. And yes, the might of the traitor Primarchs played a part, cutting huge swaths in the Loyalists personally, and some undermining them not with might, but guile, such as Perturabo, Alpharius, and as you said, Horus. What's that? Horus used strategy and tactical prowess to gain an advantage in a war? How dare he!?
They fled after Horus died because with their strongest gone, they couldn't oppose the full might of the returning Loyalists, which is kind of true, since the Ultramarines outnumbers most of the Traitor Legions combined.
There are chaos recruting threads and they never end well. Maybe the fact the recrutement cannot be confirmed in the size you 'd need if you rely on GW and not fanwank should tell you there is not enough fluff to base a claim on a steady source of new recruts on.
Horus deserved his fate.
They fled because they were weak. They fled because they had no discipline and discarded the concept of loyality.
They fled because they may fight when they had a superiority of 3:1 but had no guts to fight 1:1. They fled because the feared for their precious existance.
They could have stayed because the ultramarines were far off and maybe not even in transit. Gullyman gave up on the IoM..as it was.
So we have the two Legions you seem to love, the Space wolves ( decreased in numbers from their adventure at prospero ) and the Dark Angels, who were the greater danger as they had as "the first legion" surely some time to grow and if they called for their reserves from Caliban the split may not have happened.
I don't know why you discount the word bearers, wasn't it their job to keep the ultras busy? No success methinks...
But maybe the major disadvantage of chaos is the Primarchs were created as a band of brothers, so strengths and weaknesses would be balanced by thy brother and not just raw personal power. The united force of them is stronger than the parts.
The traitors gave up on this and screwed themselves. The loyalists are still able to cooperate.
GW had to take them out, since 10 millenia to reforge the IoM would be enough. Bye bye grimdark...
Void__Dragon wrote: Oh, certainly, Horus and the Traitor's actions are reprehensible, largely due to the corrupting nature of Chaos. I don't dispute that, I only believe the Daemon Primarchs got the better deal compared to the Loyalists.
And I also see that we will never convince the other of our view, would you agree to disagree?
I do.
Jollydevil wrote:
English Assassin wrote:
Jollydevil wrote:Magnus is a demon prince and rules over a planet,peturablo rules a planet, Angron is a deamom prince and rules a world, Mprtarion is a deamon prince and rules a world, Lorgar is a deamon and rules a world, and although fulgrim is a shadow of himself and all that jazz, hes also a deamon prince who owns his own world. Thats almost a 70% world ruling rate, with almost all of them deamon princes.
World < Galaxy.
Alright?
I dont understand where youre going with this.
I think he goes to:
Primarchs had legion homeworlds.
Traitor primarchs rule hellholes in the warp, but still just 1 planet.
So the deal is a swap of 1 type of home to another. Nothing won.
OtoH, as primarchs of a imperial space marine legion, the whole galaxy was to be theirs to roam, to conquer, to explore. Maybe not to rule personally but with their actual masters they also have no chance to be the one with the last say.
They controlled worlds, maybe systems. Who knows every position they were created for? We have hints the Emperor planned to hand control over his newly added entry to the webway to Magnus. Now, a job as Gatekeeper doesn't look important but if you conquer the routes and gates in it, you control a system of paths throughout the Galaxy. And get all the news first from the travellers.
Swapped an Galaxy for them to take with a life of paranoia, where your brother is your worst enemy...
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
Omegus wrote:Doombreed was not the first and most favored, but merely one of Khorne's first. You are making stuff up.
Although Khorne was the first to awaken, it wasn't by a large margin. We have no specific timeline of these events, so claiming Doombreed is older than Tzeench is pure conjecture, also known as making stuff up.
Magnus was never defeated by three terminators and a dreadnought. In BotF, he was stomping on the Chapter Master while having faded to the point that he was transparent and wind disturbed his outline. His manifestation was brief in likely the most daemon-hostile environment in the Imperium, and he still stomped face. You are again, yes you guessed it, making stuff up.
Also, "ur"? Really? We've degenerated to text speak now? I'm embarrassed for you, truly.
His form was fading...DUE TO THE MASSIVE DAMAGE DOLED OUT BY GREYLOC!!!
You seem to only accept details from books that suit your PoV.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Void__Dragon wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:Greater Daemons do NOT serve Daemon Primarchs. At all. If you're going to use the thing with Angron at armaggedon, then remember it didn't ever say they served him, it said he was standing alongside them.
Now MAYBE Angron, being the most powerful traitor primarch, is the equal or slight superior of a standard khornate GD, but daemons like An'ggrath and Doombreed would still be quite enormously more powerful than him, and An'ggrath actually has a statline.
Same goes for the other daemon lords.
Oh come on man this gak again?
The Space Wolves codex referred to twelve Bloodthirsters as Angron's lieutenants. They served him.
No, all Daemon Primarchs are stronger, Jesus Christ dude, Njal Stormcaller, "merely" a Rune Priest, killed a Bloodthirster personally. A Primarch definitely could. gak, Magnus the Red has popped Titans dwarfing Warlords on at least two occasions, and Fulgrim runs around beating up Avatars of Khaine. An'ggrath might be more powerful, but until we get an official word from the fluff it's a moot point.
The Twelve Blood thirsters wer NOT referred to as his lieutenants. He was described as standing amongst them.
We're using specific examples and merely between quotation marks now? Okay, Kaldor Draigo, "merely` a space marine, wiped the floor with a primarch, burned down the garden of nurgle, and just basically owes chaos whenever he sees it. A Daemon primarch.
So By your Logic, Space Marines should all have a number of Greater Daemon Lieutenants surpassing twelve because they are better than daemon primarchs. Also, Fulgrim only barely defeated the Avatar of Khaine, and he`s one of the stronger primarchs, having taken out 2 other primarchs. Avatars have stats much, much, MUCH worse than An`ggrath. Just sayin.
Lexicanum wrote:Greater Daemons are the most powerful of the Chaos Gods servants
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/13 02:57:06
And you seem to only accept those that you've invented.
Spoiler:
By the time Magnus engaged that whole gaggle of wolves, the "glory of his ascent had receded", so he was already diminished. Yet despite all the punishment they inflicted on his borrowed form (remember he was inhabiting the body of one of his captains), he still killed all of them except for Bjorn, who he left armless in a ruined heap.
His form didn't start losing coherency until Ironhelm showed up (Greyloc was dead by that point). The whole fight basically read like a Dragonball Z boss battle, with Magnus playing the role of Goku. They inflict a ridiculous amount of punishment on him, only for him to go, "oh wait, i'm a daemon primarch, lulz" and annihilate them. Despite them being the protagonists and having tons of plot armor on, he still killed all of them and destroyed their gene research. How does this equate to being "defeated" again? Who's the one unable to accept reality here?
The Space Wolves codex describes the Bloodthirsters as "the most terrible of all Khorne's servants save the Daemon Primarch himself". That certainly doesn't seem to imply that they are stronger than he is. Quite the opposite. And Fulgrim is not "one of the strongest Primarchs". He was losing his battle against Mannus until the daemon sword gave him his power, and when he defeated Guilliman he was already a Daemon.
Also, I absolutely love how you cite Lexicanum of all things, and then manage to do it out of context. Right before that sentence, on that exact page, the Daemon Princes are described as follows: "Those who become Daemon Princes are counted among the most powerful creatures of Chaos, second only to the Chaos Gods themselves." Yes, greater daemons are the most powerful servants of the Chaos Gods, but the Daemon Princes are their most powerful champions.
So you're back from your vacation, only to spout a bunch of falsehoods again. And all you accomplish with every one of your citations is to weaken your argument. But hey, I'm impressed you actually managed to make a post without resorting to namecalling. That time-out must have done you some good.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/09/13 03:22:11
im2randomghgh wrote:The Twelve Blood thirsters wer NOT referred to as his lieutenants. He was described as standing amongst them.
They were also described as "Khorne's most terrible servants save the Daemon Primarch himself."
Oh, and later on, referring to the Grey Knights banishing Angron and his twelve Bloodthirsters with great loss, it says "With Angron and his LIEUTENANTS banished to the Warp..."
We're using specific examples and merely between quotation marks now? Okay, Kaldor Draigo, "merely` a space marine, wiped the floor with a primarch, burned down the garden of nurgle, and just basically owes chaos whenever he sees it. A Daemon primarch.
Kaldor Draigo is the only person in the fluff who has bested a Daemon Primarch mono el mono. But guess what? Numerous Greater Daemons have been beaten one on one. Thawn banished Ku'gath the Plaguefather. Stern banished M'kaechan. Commander Dante IIRC cut Skarbarand in half. Hell, a goddamn Dreadknight can and has taken down Greater Daemons one on one.
Face it, you have no proof a Greater Daemon is stronger than a Primarch.
So By your Logic, Space Marines should all have a number of Greater Daemon Lieutenants surpassing twelve because they are better than daemon primarchs. Also, Fulgrim only barely defeated the Avatar of Khaine, and he`s one of the stronger primarchs, having taken out 2 other primarchs. Avatars have stats much, much, MUCH worse than An`ggrath. Just sayin.
No, that's your insane troll logic, not mine. Fulgrim was wounded by the Avatar of Khaine, yes, but said Avatar of Khaine in the story was also demonstratably stronger than a Wraithlord, who was easily crushed by Fulgrim. And Fulgrim may be a bit above average for a Primarch (This is pretty arguable in of itself), but he's no Magnus, Sanguinius, Angron, Horus, or probably Leman Russ. And he had to use his Daemonsword to beat Manus.
Lexicanum wrote:Greater Daemons are the most powerful of the Chaos Gods servants
Lol. Guess what the very page you quoted that from says?
"Those who become Daemon Princes are counted among the most powerful creatures of Chaos, second only to the Chaos Gods themselves. "
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Omegus wrote:The Space Wolves codex describes the Bloodthirsters as "the most terrible of all Khorne's servants save the Daemon Primarch himself". That certainly doesn't seem to imply that they are stronger than he is. Quite the opposite. And Fulgrim is not "one of the strongest Primarchs". He was losing his battle against Mannus until the daemon sword gave him his power, and when he defeated Guilliman he was already a Daemon.
Also, I absolutely love how you cite Lexicanum of all things, and then manage to do it out of context. Right before that sentence, on that exact page, the Daemon Princes are described as follows: "Those who become Daemon Princes are counted among the most powerful creatures of Chaos, second only to the Chaos Gods themselves." Yes, greater daemons are the most powerful servants of the Chaos Gods, but the Daemon Princes are their most powerful champions.
You sniped a decent chunk of my argument.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/09/13 03:33:06
im2randomghgh wrote:The Twelve Blood thirsters wer NOT referred to as his lieutenants. He was described as standing amongst them.
They were also described as "Khorne's most terrible servants save the Daemon Primarch himself."
Oh, and later on, referring to the Grey Knights banishing Angron and his twelve Bloodthirsters with great loss, it says "With Angron and his LIEUTENANTS banished to the Warp..."
We're using specific examples and merely between quotation marks now? Okay, Kaldor Draigo, "merely` a space marine, wiped the floor with a primarch, burned down the garden of nurgle, and just basically owes chaos whenever he sees it. A Daemon primarch.
Kaldor Draigo is the only person in the fluff who has bested a Daemon Primarch mono el mono. But guess what? Numerous Greater Daemons have been beaten one on one. Thawn banished Ku'gath the Plaguefather. Stern banished M'kaechan. Commander Dante IIRC cut Skarbarand in half. Hell, a goddamn Dreadknight can and has taken down Greater Daemons one on one.
Face it, you have no proof a Greater Daemon is stronger than a Primarch.
So By your Logic, Space Marines should all have a number of Greater Daemon Lieutenants surpassing twelve because they are better than daemon primarchs. Also, Fulgrim only barely defeated the Avatar of Khaine, and he`s one of the stronger primarchs, having taken out 2 other primarchs. Avatars have stats much, much, MUCH worse than An`ggrath. Just sayin.
No, that's your insane troll logic, not mine. Fulgrim was wounded by the Avatar of Khaine, yes, but said Avatar of Khaine in the story was also demonstratably stronger than a Wraithlord, who was easily crushed by Fulgrim. And Fulgrim may be above average for a Primarch, but he's no Magnus, Sanguinius, Angron, Horus, or probably Leman Russ. And he had to use his Daemonsword to beat Manus.
Lexicanum wrote:Greater Daemons are the most powerful of the Chaos Gods servants
Lol. Guess what the very page you quoted that from says?
"Those who become Daemon Princes are counted among the most powerful creatures of Chaos, second only to the Chaos Gods themselves. "
Only one that can defeat alot of people is Doombreed. Not DOOMBREAD. But Doombreed silly dakkanauts.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Uhlan wrote:There is no glory in becoming a pawn of Chaos.
To suggest that the traitor primarchs have come out on top because they're still living is to ignore what they have become and the lives they live. I'm sure it isn't an altogether joyous experience no matter how 'cool' it might seem to be a demon.
Remember as well that Fulgrim is trapped within his own body by a demon. Forced to live out his existence in that way does not seem like a victory to me.
1hadhq wrote:There are chaos recruting threads and they never end well. Maybe the fact the recrutement cannot be confirmed in the size you 'd need if you rely on GW and not fanwank should tell you there is not enough fluff to base a claim on a steady source of new recruts on.
Horus deserved his fate.
They fled because they were weak. They fled because they had no discipline and discarded the concept of loyality.
They fled because they may fight when they had a superiority of 3:1 but had no guts to fight 1:1. They fled because the feared for their precious existance.
They could have stayed because the ultramarines were far off and maybe not even in transit. Gullyman gave up on the IoM..as it was.
So we have the two Legions you seem to love, the Space wolves ( decreased in numbers from their adventure at prospero ) and the Dark Angels, who were the greater danger as they had as "the first legion" surely some time to grow and if they called for their reserves from Caliban the split may not have happened.
I don't know why you discount the word bearers, wasn't it their job to keep the ultras busy? No success methinks...
But maybe the major disadvantage of chaos is the Primarchs were created as a band of brothers, so strengths and weaknesses would be balanced by thy brother and not just raw personal power. The united force of them is stronger than the parts.
The traitors gave up on this and screwed themselves. The loyalists are still able to cooperate.
GW had to take them out, since 10 millenia to reforge the IoM would be enough. Bye bye grimdark...
The loyalist primarchs are dead or missing, in case you don't remember.
Also, on Isstvan, the Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Death Guard faced the Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders for the greater part of the battle before the counter attack by the Sons of Horus. The Iron Hands retreated when Ferrus Manus was killed. By your logic, this makes them cowards.
The Alpha Legion also constantly fight one on one when facing loyalists, because they want to test themselves.
Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can play the best chess in the world, but at the end of the day the pigeon will still knock all the pieces off the board and then gak all over it.
Durza wrote:
Also, on Isstvan, the Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Death Guard faced the Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders for the greater part of the battle before the counter attack by the Sons of Horus. The Iron Hands retreated when Ferrus Manus was killed. By your logic, this makes them cowards.
The Alpha Legion also constantly fight one on one when facing loyalists, because they want to test themselves.
At istvaan, the Iron Hands had just the veteran companies as Ferrus Manus wasn't waiting until his complete force arrived.
Their fate is not revealed yet, all we know is Ferrus lost his head. His bodyguard died on his side. So who retreated?
The Salamanders are one of the smaller Legions. The Raven Guard seems also to be a medium or small sized Legion.
Facing the Traitors who had time to dig in, they had to regroup and deemd the landed reinforcements to be theirs.
So the fortified base opened fire....
Somehow, having 4 Legions on the Ground, plus fresh Legions in the opponents base, and thus almost 9 Legions to fight against 3 Legions, is exactly the 3:1 situation I am talking of. Plus the newly arrived ones had not lost anyone and some Legions aren't known as small but these loyal ones surely were. In size, it may have been more than 3:1.
The alpha legion may get some new fluff pre/past isstvan Watch the HH series...
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
Fulgrim did NOT use the power of the laer sword to kill Manus, any other sword would have worked just as well. Ferrus Manus was losing, so he blewed up Fulgrim's blade, at which point Fulgim drew his second sword, and beheaded Ferrus.
@ Arguing the Lexicanum quote, it WAS a contradictory page, but LOOK what it says on the page for Daemon Princes
Lexicanum wrote:Daemon Princes rule supreme over mortal Chaos followers and are usually granted reign over a Daemon World of their own.2 3 Despite this, it is not uncommon for them to leave the material plane completely and join a daemonic legion in order to serve as right hand of a mighty Greater Daemon
Oh, so Daemon Princes are stronger than Greater Daemons? Funny that they should serve those weaker than them.
@ Doombreed:
Lexicanum wrote:Doombreed is a mighty Daemon Prince of the Blood God Khorne, responsible for leading a Black Crusade against the Imperium. He is older and more powerful than even the mighty Daemon Primarchs.
Now go, go find a source which states that any of the daemon Primarchs single-handedly destroyed two chapters of loyalists the way Doombreed did.
im2randomghgh wrote:Fulgrim did NOT use the power of the laer sword to kill Manus, any other sword would have worked just as well. Ferrus Manus was losing, so he blewed up Fulgrim's blade, at which point Fulgim drew his second sword, and beheaded Ferrus.
It is so blatantly obvious you have not a clue on what really happened. Ferrus Manus did destroy the Fireblade... In their first fight, and he did it because he was renouncing Fulgrim as his brother, not because he was losing. They were evenly matched until that point.. Doing this disarmed Manus and knocked him to the ground, making it easy for Fulgrim to take Manus' hammer, the one Fulgrim created, and he proceeded to knock him out with said hammer.
When they fought on Istvaan V, Manus fought Fulgrim with a reforged Fireblade, Fulgrim at first used the hammer he made for Manus. Manus took a hit to the temple from the Warhammer, and proceeded to then slash upwards at Fulgrim's stomach, wounding him, and he dropped the hammer from the pain. Manus then was about to kill him with Fireblade, Fulgrim blocked the killing stroke with the Laer blade. The Daemonsword then empowered him, giving him unnatural strength, allowing him to wound Manus' chest, while wreathing Fulgrim in lightning. Then, he cut Manus' head off. This is what happened.
@ Arguing the Lexicanum quote, it WAS a contradictory page, but LOOK what it says on the page for Daemon Princes
Oh, so Daemon Princes are stronger than Greater Daemons? Funny that they should serve those weaker than them.
I actually agree that on average a Daemon Prince is lower in power and status than a Greater Daemon, a little. But the Daemon Primarchs are anything but average, and as I proved the Bloodthirster's served him. And if it's contradictory, it's generally not an infallible source.
@ Doombreed:
Lexicanum wrote:Doombreed is a mighty Daemon Prince of the Blood God Khorne, responsible for leading a Black Crusade against the Imperium. He is older and more powerful than even the mighty Daemon Primarchs.
Now go, go find a source which states that any of the daemon Primarchs single-handedly destroyed two chapters of loyalists the way Doombreed did.
See now, here's the thing. I've looked through the 4e Chaos Marines codex, Liber Chaotica, and even managed to find the 2e Chaos codex, all three being the cited sources for that page. Want to know what all of them have in common? None of them state Doombreed is more powerful than the Daemon Primarchs.
This "single-handedly" gak needs to stop. It wasn't his personal power that allowed this, it was his Black Crusade, his assembled forces that he led. It's not like he personally killed both legions alone.
im2randomghgh wrote:Fulgrim did NOT use the power of the laer sword to kill Manus, any other sword would have worked just as well. Ferrus Manus was losing, so he blewed up Fulgrim's blade, at which point Fulgim drew his second sword, and beheaded Ferrus.
It is so blatantly obvious you have not a clue on what really happened. Ferrus Manus did destroy the Fireblade... In their first fight, and he did it because he was renouncing Fulgrim as his brother, not because he was losing. They were evenly matched until that point.. Doing this disarmed Manus and knocked him to the ground, making it easy for Fulgrim to take Manus' hammer, the one Fulgrim created, and he proceeded to knock him out with said hammer.
When they fought on Istvaan V, Manus fought Fulgrim with a reforged Fireblade, Fulgrim at first used the hammer he made for Manus. Manus took a hit to the temple from the Warhammer, and proceeded to then slash upwards at Fulgrim's stomach, wounding him, and he dropped the hammer from the pain. Manus then was about to kill him with Fireblade, Fulgrim blocked the killing stroke with the Laer blade. The Daemonsword then empowered him, giving him unnatural strength, allowing him to wound Manus' chest, while wreathing Fulgrim in lightning. Then, he cut Manus' head off. This is what happened.
@ Arguing the Lexicanum quote, it WAS a contradictory page, but LOOK what it says on the page for Daemon Princes
Oh, so Daemon Princes are stronger than Greater Daemons? Funny that they should serve those weaker than them.
I actually agree that on average a Daemon Prince is lower in power and status than a Greater Daemon, a little. But the Daemon Primarchs are anything but average, and as I proved the Bloodthirster's served him. And if it's contradictory, it's generally not an infallible source.
@ Doombreed:
Lexicanum wrote:Doombreed is a mighty Daemon Prince of the Blood God Khorne, responsible for leading a Black Crusade against the Imperium. He is older and more powerful than even the mighty Daemon Primarchs.
Now go, go find a source which states that any of the daemon Primarchs single-handedly destroyed two chapters of loyalists the way Doombreed did.
See now, here's the thing. I've looked through the 4e Chaos Marines codex, Liber Chaotica, and even managed to find the 2e Chaos codex, all three being the cited sources for that page. Want to know what all of them have in common? None of them state Doombreed is more powerful than the Daemon Primarchs.
This "single-handedly" gak needs to stop. It wasn't his personal power that allowed this, it was his Black Crusade, his assembled forces that he led. It's not like he personally killed both legions alone.
1. That is not what happened on Istvaan V.
2. Not by just a little, or they wouldn't be serving them. I know the Daemon Primarchs aren't normal, and neither is An'ggrath. That was my original point. An'ggrath > Primarch. Primarch < Daemon Primarch.
3. Oh, so you're under the impression that only those two chapters were left to fight off the Entire crusade? What happened was Doombreed, personally, as an individual daemon, declared war on the Adeptus Astartes as a whole. And it happened to be during a crusade, so he lead it.
im2randomghgh wrote:1. That is not what happened on Istvaan V.
2. Not by just a little, or they wouldn't be serving them. I know the Daemon Primarchs aren't normal, and neither is An'ggrath. That was my original point. An'ggrath > Primarch. Primarch < Daemon Primarch.
3. Oh, so you're under the impression that only those two chapters were left to fight off the Entire crusade? What happened was Doombreed, personally, as an individual daemon, declared war on the Adeptus Astartes as a whole. And it happened to be during a crusade, so he lead it.
1. Yes... It is. I'm not going to quote it, because though I have Fulgrim saved onto this hard drive I am unable to copy and paste, and I'm not writing out the two pages or so that this occurred in, but that's the abridged version of what happened.
2. Yes, by a little. Daemon Princes are the number two guys on any given battlefield, second in power only to the Greater Daemons they usually serve, and the difference isn't that large, and can even be nonexistent. An'ggrath may be stronger than a Daemon Primarch (Though wasn't he banished in personal combat by an Inquisitor?), but it's not said either way. You're making assumptions based on your preference.
3. It's not actually said either way. It's not said what forces other than those two chapters were present. And yes, he declared war on the Astartes. But he didn't destroy the two Legions by himself, that's not said anywhere.
You guys are being rediculous.
Lexicanum says that greater demons and demon princes are about equel anyways, and even then you cant compare them because they command different things.
"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons."
Lexicanum wrote:Doombreed is a mighty Daemon Prince of the Blood God Khorne, responsible for leading a Black Crusade against the Imperium. He is older and more powerful than even the mighty Daemon Primarchs.
Now go, go find a source which states that any of the daemon Primarchs single-handedly destroyed two chapters of loyalists the way Doombreed did.
Doombreed is a Daemon Prince, you are again undermining your own argument. Okay, so Doombreed is more powerful than even the mighty Daemon Primarchs. Doesn't that last part underline just how powerful Daemon Primarchs are? If Greater Daemons were stronger, wouldn't they be the ones mentioned in this line? Or are you saying Greater Daemons are stronger than Doombreed?
Can you provide a source that states Doombreed single-handedly destroyed these Chapters? By his lonesome? I somehow doubt it.
But you know, never mind, you've been proven wrong on at least a dozen points so far, and when I find myself arguing against citations of text that don't actually exist, I know not to bother anymore.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/09/13 22:51:02
im2randomghgh wrote:An'ggrath was banished by an Inquisitor lord supported by all of the GK forces present at the SoV, yes.
Lexicanum says "personal combat."
Though, granted, I can't find SoV III, where this is detailed, so it could be inaccurate.
Oh, and:
Spoiler:
Ferrus Manus tore his eyes from the slaughter of the loyalist forces, his
teeth bared with the volcanic fury of his home world.
'Maybe not, traitor, but only dishonour holds any terror for me,' spat
Ferrus. 'The Emperor's loyal warriors will not surrender to you, not now,
not ever. You will have to kill every last one of us!'
'So be it/ said Fulgrim, launching himself towards Ferrus Manus,
swinging his mighty warhammer. The primarchs' weapons, forged in
brotherhood, but wielded in vengeance, met in a blazing plume of
energy, and the battlefield was illuminated for hundreds of metres by
their ferocious energies.
The two primarchs traded blows with their monstrously powerful
weapons, the strength to defeat armies and topple mountains unleashed
as they fought like gods forced to end their dispute in the realm of
mortals. Ferrus Manus wielded his flaming blade in fiery slashes, his
every blow defeated by the
ebony hafted hammer he had borne in countless campaigns.
Fulgrim swung his hammer in great, looping arcs, its heavy head
powerful enough to crush the armour of a Titan to paste. Both warriors
fought with the hatred only brothers divided can muster, their armour
dented, torn and blackened by the fury of their conflict.
To fight an opponent of such magnificence was a privilege, and Fulgrim
savoured every clash of hammer and sword, every fiery line cut across
his flesh and every grunt of pain torn from his brother's mouth as
Forgebreaker glanced his armour. They circled in the midst of cries of
pain and roaring savage glee, the Morlocks of Ferrus Manus slain, but
for a last few desperate heroes.
Ferrus cut the shoulder guard from Fulgrim's armour and spun inside his
guard to deliver a lethal thrust towards his groin. Fulgrim stepped to
meet the blow, batting aside the tip of the fiery sword with the haft of
Forgebreaker, and hammering the warham-mer's head towards Ferrus's
skull.
The Primarch of the Iron Hands took the blow, dropping to one knee and
lashing out with his blade as blood streamed from the terrible wound in
his temple. The sword's fiery tip cut across Fulgrim's stomach, opening
his armour and tearing through his flesh. The pain was indescribable,
and Fulgrim fell back, dropping his hammer as his hands sought to stem
the blood pouring from his body.
Both primarchs faced each other on their knees through a haze of pain
and blood, and Fulgrim once again felt an ache of sadness well within
him. The pain of his wounds, and the sight of his brother's broken skull
coated in blood, tore a window into his
mind. The sensation was like a powerful gust of fresh mountain air,
clearing away the fog that had wrapped him in a suffocating embrace for
so long that he no longer noticed it until it was gone.
'My brother/ he whispered, 'my friend.'
'You have long since lost the right to call me friend/ snarled Ferrus,
pushing himself to his feet and staggering towards Fulgrim with
Fireblade raised to smite him.
Fulgrim cried out, and his hand leapt unbidden to his waist as the
flaming blade carved a burning path towards his neck. Silver steel
flashed as he drew the sword he had taken from the Laer temple and
blocked the descending weapon. Ferrus's sword hissed and spat as it bit
into the silver blade, the Primarch of the Iron Hands' strength forcing the
blazing metal, centimetre by centimetre, towards Fulgrim's face.
'No!' cried Fulgrim. 'This is not right!'
The amethyst stone at the hilt of Fulgrim's sword pulsed with an evil
light, bathing Ferrus Manus's face in a leering purple glare. Energy
streamed from the blade, and musky smoke billowed around them,
deadening sounds and obscuring sight. Fulgrim felt a monstrous
presence swell around him, its power and nameless essence more
intoxicating and dreadful than anything he could ever have imagined.
Diabolical strength flooded his limbs and he pushed against the power of
Ferrus Manus, feeling his brother's surprise at his resistance. With a cry
of animal rage, he surged to his feet and hurled Ferrus Manus back,
spinning and lashing out with his sword.
The silver edge bit deep into the breastplate of his brother's armour, and
the Primarch of the Iron Hands cried out, falling to his knees once again
as the blade's flaring energies parted his dark armour like a fingernail
through cold grease. Hot blood sprayed from the wound and Fireblade
slid from Ferrus's hand as he gasped in fierce agony.
Finish him! Kill him! the voice screamed, and to Ful-grim it seemed as
though it echoed across time and space as well as within his skull. He
staggered with the blunt force of its imperative, lurching as though his
limbs were not his to control.
His normal grace and elan were forsaken as he falter-ingly raised the
silver sword in preparation of delivering the deathblow to Ferrus Manus.
Unknown energies coruscated along the notched blade and down the
length of his arms into the meat and bone of his wounded body.
Fulgrim was wreathed in purple fire. Crackling arcs of lightning
caressed him with a lover's tenderness, seeking out his open wounds and
licking them with balefire as they sought entry to his flesh.
Fulgrim stood above Ferrus Manus, his chest heaving convulsively as
his entire body shook with the violence of the power that sought to claim
him.
He must die! Otherwise he will kill you!
Fulgrim looked down at his defeated opponent and saw his own
reflection in the mirrors of Ferrus's eyes.
In an instant that stretched for an eternity, he saw what he had become
and what monstrous betrayal he had allowed himself to be party to. He
knew in that eternal moment that he had made a terrible mistake in
drawing the sword from the Laer temple, and he fought to release the
damnable blade that had brought him so low.
His grip was locked onto the weapon and even as he recognised how far
he had fallen, he knew that he had come too far to stop, the realisation
coupled with the knowledge that everything he had striven for had been
a lie.
As though moving in slow motion, Fulgrim saw Ferrus Manus reaching
for his fallen sword, his fingers closing around the wire-wound grip, the
flames leaping once more to the blade at its creator's touch.
Kill him before he kills you! NOW!
Fulgrim's blade seemed to move with a life of its own, but it had no need
of such impellents, for he swung the blade of his own volition.
The silver blade clove the air as it swept towards Ferrus Manus, and
Fulgrim felt the ancient triumph of the presence that he now knew had
dwelt within it all this time. He tried desperately to pull the blow, but his
muscles were no longer his own to control.
Unnatural warp-forged steel met the iron flesh of a primarch, its aberrant
edge cutting through Ferrus's skin, muscle and bone with a shrieking
howl that echoed in realms beyond those knowable to mortals.
Blood and the monumental energies bound within the meat and gristle of
one of the Emperor's sons erupted from the wound, and Fulgrim fell
back as the searing powers blinded him, dropping the silver sword at his
side. He heard a shrieking wail, as of a choir of banshees, whip around
him as phantom, skeletal hands clawed at him, and a thousand voices
tore at his mind.
Ghostly whirlwinds seized him and spun him around, twisting him like a
limp rag in their grip, and threatening to tear him limb from limb in
retribution. Even as he welcomed such oblivion, he felt another presence
move to protect him, the same presence that had guided his sword arm,
the same presence that had been his constant companion since Laeran,
though he had not known it.
Fulgrim fell to the ground as the winds released him, and faded with a
shrieking howl of anguished
frustration. He landed heavily and rolled onto his side, heaving great
gulps of cold air into his lungs as the sound of battle returned to him. He
heard cries of pain, gunfire, explosions and the rhythmic crack of bolters
as they fired relentless volley after volley. It was the sound of death.
It was the sound of a massacre.
His entire body aching with pain and loss, Fulgrim pushed himself
upright. Blood and the detritus of battle surrounded him, the stoic
figures of armoured warriors staring in wonder at the headless body that
lay-on the black ground before him.
Fulgrim took a shuddering breath and raised his hands to the heavens,
screaming his loss at the sight of his brother so cruelly murdered.
What have I done?' he howled. Throne save me, what have I done?'
What needed to be done.
Fulgrim heard the voice as a sibilant whisper in his ear, the breath of the
speaker hot on his neck. He twisted his neck, but there was nothing to be
seen, no unseen speaker or mysterious presence.
'He's dead/ whispered Fulgrim, the aching loss and guilt of his crime too
monstrous to believe. 'I killed him.'
Yes, you did. With your own hands, you struck down your brother, he
who had only thought well of you and fought faithfully with you through
all the long years.
This is exactly what happened at Istvaan V. Notice it matches what I said.
im2randomghgh wrote:An'ggrath was banished by an Inquisitor lord supported by all of the GK forces present at the SoV, yes.
Lexicanum says "personal combat."
Though, granted, I can't find SoV III, where this is detailed, so it could be inaccurate.
Oh, and:
Spoiler:
Ferrus Manus tore his eyes from the slaughter of the loyalist forces, his
teeth bared with the volcanic fury of his home world.
'Maybe not, traitor, but only dishonour holds any terror for me,' spat
Ferrus. 'The Emperor's loyal warriors will not surrender to you, not now,
not ever. You will have to kill every last one of us!'
'So be it/ said Fulgrim, launching himself towards Ferrus Manus,
swinging his mighty warhammer. The primarchs' weapons, forged in
brotherhood, but wielded in vengeance, met in a blazing plume of
energy, and the battlefield was illuminated for hundreds of metres by
their ferocious energies.
The two primarchs traded blows with their monstrously powerful
weapons, the strength to defeat armies and topple mountains unleashed
as they fought like gods forced to end their dispute in the realm of
mortals. Ferrus Manus wielded his flaming blade in fiery slashes, his
every blow defeated by the
ebony hafted hammer he had borne in countless campaigns.
Fulgrim swung his hammer in great, looping arcs, its heavy head
powerful enough to crush the armour of a Titan to paste. Both warriors
fought with the hatred only brothers divided can muster, their armour
dented, torn and blackened by the fury of their conflict.
To fight an opponent of such magnificence was a privilege, and Fulgrim
savoured every clash of hammer and sword, every fiery line cut across
his flesh and every grunt of pain torn from his brother's mouth as
Forgebreaker glanced his armour. They circled in the midst of cries of
pain and roaring savage glee, the Morlocks of Ferrus Manus slain, but
for a last few desperate heroes.
Ferrus cut the shoulder guard from Fulgrim's armour and spun inside his
guard to deliver a lethal thrust towards his groin. Fulgrim stepped to
meet the blow, batting aside the tip of the fiery sword with the haft of
Forgebreaker, and hammering the warham-mer's head towards Ferrus's
skull.
The Primarch of the Iron Hands took the blow, dropping to one knee and
lashing out with his blade as blood streamed from the terrible wound in
his temple. The sword's fiery tip cut across Fulgrim's stomach, opening
his armour and tearing through his flesh. The pain was indescribable,
and Fulgrim fell back, dropping his hammer as his hands sought to stem
the blood pouring from his body.
Both primarchs faced each other on their knees through a haze of pain
and blood, and Fulgrim once again felt an ache of sadness well within
him. The pain of his wounds, and the sight of his brother's broken skull
coated in blood, tore a window into his
mind. The sensation was like a powerful gust of fresh mountain air,
clearing away the fog that had wrapped him in a suffocating embrace for
so long that he no longer noticed it until it was gone.
'My brother/ he whispered, 'my friend.'
'You have long since lost the right to call me friend/ snarled Ferrus,
pushing himself to his feet and staggering towards Fulgrim with
Fireblade raised to smite him.
Fulgrim cried out, and his hand leapt unbidden to his waist as the
flaming blade carved a burning path towards his neck. Silver steel
flashed as he drew the sword he had taken from the Laer temple and
blocked the descending weapon. Ferrus's sword hissed and spat as it bit
into the silver blade, the Primarch of the Iron Hands' strength forcing the
blazing metal, centimetre by centimetre, towards Fulgrim's face.
'No!' cried Fulgrim. 'This is not right!'
The amethyst stone at the hilt of Fulgrim's sword pulsed with an evil
light, bathing Ferrus Manus's face in a leering purple glare. Energy
streamed from the blade, and musky smoke billowed around them,
deadening sounds and obscuring sight. Fulgrim felt a monstrous
presence swell around him, its power and nameless essence more
intoxicating and dreadful than anything he could ever have imagined.
Diabolical strength flooded his limbs and he pushed against the power of
Ferrus Manus, feeling his brother's surprise at his resistance. With a cry
of animal rage, he surged to his feet and hurled Ferrus Manus back,
spinning and lashing out with his sword.
The silver edge bit deep into the breastplate of his brother's armour, and
the Primarch of the Iron Hands cried out, falling to his knees once again
as the blade's flaring energies parted his dark armour like a fingernail
through cold grease. Hot blood sprayed from the wound and Fireblade
slid from Ferrus's hand as he gasped in fierce agony.
Finish him! Kill him! the voice screamed, and to Ful-grim it seemed as
though it echoed across time and space as well as within his skull. He
staggered with the blunt force of its imperative, lurching as though his
limbs were not his to control.
His normal grace and elan were forsaken as he falter-ingly raised the
silver sword in preparation of delivering the deathblow to Ferrus Manus.
Unknown energies coruscated along the notched blade and down the
length of his arms into the meat and bone of his wounded body.
Fulgrim was wreathed in purple fire. Crackling arcs of lightning
caressed him with a lover's tenderness, seeking out his open wounds and
licking them with balefire as they sought entry to his flesh.
Fulgrim stood above Ferrus Manus, his chest heaving convulsively as
his entire body shook with the violence of the power that sought to claim
him.
He must die! Otherwise he will kill you!
Fulgrim looked down at his defeated opponent and saw his own
reflection in the mirrors of Ferrus's eyes.
In an instant that stretched for an eternity, he saw what he had become
and what monstrous betrayal he had allowed himself to be party to. He
knew in that eternal moment that he had made a terrible mistake in
drawing the sword from the Laer temple, and he fought to release the
damnable blade that had brought him so low.
His grip was locked onto the weapon and even as he recognised how far
he had fallen, he knew that he had come too far to stop, the realisation
coupled with the knowledge that everything he had striven for had been
a lie.
As though moving in slow motion, Fulgrim saw Ferrus Manus reaching
for his fallen sword, his fingers closing around the wire-wound grip, the
flames leaping once more to the blade at its creator's touch.
Kill him before he kills you! NOW!
Fulgrim's blade seemed to move with a life of its own, but it had no need
of such impellents, for he swung the blade of his own volition.
The silver blade clove the air as it swept towards Ferrus Manus, and
Fulgrim felt the ancient triumph of the presence that he now knew had
dwelt within it all this time. He tried desperately to pull the blow, but his
muscles were no longer his own to control.
Unnatural warp-forged steel met the iron flesh of a primarch, its aberrant
edge cutting through Ferrus's skin, muscle and bone with a shrieking
howl that echoed in realms beyond those knowable to mortals.
Blood and the monumental energies bound within the meat and gristle of
one of the Emperor's sons erupted from the wound, and Fulgrim fell
back as the searing powers blinded him, dropping the silver sword at his
side. He heard a shrieking wail, as of a choir of banshees, whip around
him as phantom, skeletal hands clawed at him, and a thousand voices
tore at his mind.
Ghostly whirlwinds seized him and spun him around, twisting him like a
limp rag in their grip, and threatening to tear him limb from limb in
retribution. Even as he welcomed such oblivion, he felt another presence
move to protect him, the same presence that had guided his sword arm,
the same presence that had been his constant companion since Laeran,
though he had not known it.
Fulgrim fell to the ground as the winds released him, and faded with a
shrieking howl of anguished
frustration. He landed heavily and rolled onto his side, heaving great
gulps of cold air into his lungs as the sound of battle returned to him. He
heard cries of pain, gunfire, explosions and the rhythmic crack of bolters
as they fired relentless volley after volley. It was the sound of death.
It was the sound of a massacre.
His entire body aching with pain and loss, Fulgrim pushed himself
upright. Blood and the detritus of battle surrounded him, the stoic
figures of armoured warriors staring in wonder at the headless body that
lay-on the black ground before him.
Fulgrim took a shuddering breath and raised his hands to the heavens,
screaming his loss at the sight of his brother so cruelly murdered.
What have I done?' he howled. Throne save me, what have I done?'
What needed to be done.
Fulgrim heard the voice as a sibilant whisper in his ear, the breath of the
speaker hot on his neck. He twisted his neck, but there was nothing to be
seen, no unseen speaker or mysterious presence.
'He's dead/ whispered Fulgrim, the aching loss and guilt of his crime too
monstrous to believe. 'I killed him.'
Yes, you did. With your own hands, you struck down your brother, he
who had only thought well of you and fought faithfully with you through
all the long years.
This is exactly what happened at Istvaan V. Notice it matches what I said.
You dun goof'd. You know how you were all "Russ was flailing blindly so it don't count nah nah nah" right? That's exactly what Ferrus did. So in order to be able to say "Fulgrim wasn't that good he only won with help", You are acknowledging that Ferrus Manus was better, and he was winning via the same "blind luck" as Russ.
im2randomghgh wrote:You dun goof'd. You know how you were all "Russ was flailing blindly so it don't count nah nah nah" right? That's exactly what Ferrus did. So in order to be able to say "Fulgrim wasn't that good he only won with help", You are acknowledging that Ferrus Manus was better, and he was winning via the same "blind luck" as Russ.
Just as planned.
... No man.
Ferrus Manus took Fulgrim's blow, leaving Fulgrim open, so he then proceeded to attack his exposed stomach.
Ferrus Manus was able to do that because of sheer toughness and pragmatism, not because of a lucky hit.
And unlike Russ, Manus was holding his own against Fulgrim the entire fight, Magnus was largely dominating Russ.
And I wouldn't say that Manus is necessarily better than Fulgrim, they are on par.
im2randomghgh wrote:You dun goof'd. You know how you were all "Russ was flailing blindly so it don't count nah nah nah" right? That's exactly what Ferrus did. So in order to be able to say "Fulgrim wasn't that good he only won with help", You are acknowledging that Ferrus Manus was better, and he was winning via the same "blind luck" as Russ.
Just as planned.
... No man.
Ferrus Manus took Fulgrim's blow, leaving Fulgrim open, so he then proceeded to attack his exposed stomach.
Ferrus Manus was able to do that because of sheer toughness and pragmatism, not because of a lucky hit.
And unlike Russ, Manus was holding his own against Fulgrim the entire fight, Magnus was largely dominating Russ.
And I wouldn't say that Manus is necessarily better than Fulgrim, they are on par.
Well you seem to be forgetting that Fulgrim wiped the floor with Ferrus Manus during the first fight without daemonic assistance.
Frankly, I'm a little surprised this thread is still going since the last time I posted and hasn't digressed into a complete spit-fest. It's a touchy subject apparently which only goes to show how much the fluff of this universe has infected most of us here on Dakka. The opinions expressed in this thread are all fairly well thought out and backed by knowledge of the fluff. Especially interesting when it's about a topic such as this... and not 12 pages of diatribe concerning the height of a Space Marine.
For this reason I salute you all... beautiful... *sniff*
English Assassin is absolutely correct in his assessment of what the 40k universe has become, or rather, is trying to become; a tale filled to the brim with literary tragic heroes. I imagine the authors are attempting to lay something of a legendary foundation through the Horus Heresy books by fleshing out what was/is, imho, a kind of teen-angst pulp-novel approach to sci-fi. To be perfectly honest, I was loathe to read (I had attempted a few) any novel about the 40k universe before the HH novels because, frankly, most are poorly written and cater only to that part of the brain filled with an abnormal amount of testosterone lacking any real substance. This is not to say this series is immune, but I think the HH has lent the frachise a bit more cachet.
Trying to wrangle the 40k universe to fit that template will be difficult as it needs to move some of the more cartoonish aspects of the universe to the background. Yet it's just this aspect that drew many people to the fluff in the first place. How GW will reconcile this is rather dimly lit as of now.
It's just this twisting of the fluff that causes so many of us to view things from such divergent points of view. Something of a generalization to be sure, but here goes...
I see, along with apparently a few others, the story unfolding as a greek tragedy. This is preferable to me as I love the heroic myths of our own worlds past. When viewed from this perspective, it's impossible to see the traitor primarchs as anything but lost heroes forever suffering 'what might have been syndrome'. The transformation to demonhood a grim reflection of what they were due to their own hubris. While particularly unfulfilling to many, this, to people such as myself is the end all and be all of a good story.
When viewed from a pulpy perspective perhaps (and I truly mean that with no disrespect as I know some will take offence at that term), one tends to see the primarchs as betrayed sons of a degenerate emperor. Tending to rejoice in the fact that the separation from him can only lead to a better future. From this view the transformation to a demon cannot be seen as anything less than beneficial. After all, their true power and individualism can be expressed now that the shackles have been thrown off. Epic tales of anti-heroism and power. Demonhood and loss of humanity being completely irrelevant.
The battle between Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus might be an example. Some see from a simple win lose perspective. I see it as something far more deep and complicated. To say Ferrus Manus in losing his head lost the heroic argument doesn't reflect what he gained by the tragic nature of his fluff. He couldn't reconcile the fact that his brother could betray the Emperor... and him for that matter. Some say weak, I say pretty darn cool. For some, Fulgrims nature is the more interesting as the dashing expert swordsman more so than the somewhat reclusive inventor/engineer. The weak nerd deserved to die!! Ok, lol, that's a bit harsh and somewhat incorrect, but it's funny.
From where I sit, the loyalists don't need to survive to have won the argument. They win by not sucumbing to temptation through the denial of what they knew they were completely capable of attaining because of a belief in the Emperor and duty to mankind. A closer definition of the title 'hero' in my mind.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/14 05:59:05
Uhlan wrote:Frankly, I'm a little surprised this thread is still going since the last time I posted and hasn't digressed into a complete spit-fest. It's a touchy subject apparently which only goes to show how much the fluff of this universe has infected most of us here on Dakka. The opinions expressed in this thread are all fairly well thought out and backed by knowledge of the fluff. Especially interesting when it's about a topic such as this... and not 12 pages of diatribe concerning the height of a Space Marine.
For this reason I salute you all... beautiful... *sniff*
English Assassin is absolutely correct in his assessment of what the 40k universe has become, or rather, is trying to become; a tale filled to the brim with literary tragic heroes. I imagine the authors are attempting to lay something of a legendary foundation through the Horus Heresy books by fleshing out what was/is, imho, a kind of teen-angst pulp-novel approach to sci-fi. To be perfectly honest, I was loathe to read (I had attempted a few) any novel about the 40k universe before the HH novels because, frankly, most are poorly written and cater only to that part of the brain filled with an abnormal amount of testosterone lacking any real substance. This is not to say this series is immune, but I think the HH has lent the frachise a bit more cachet.
Trying to wrangle the 40k universe to fit that template will be difficult as it needs to move some of the more cartoonish aspects of the universe to the background. Yet it's just this aspect that drew many people to the fluff in the first place. How GW will reconcile this is rather dimly lit as of now.
It's just this twisting of the fluff that causes so many of us to view things from such divergent points of view. Something of a generalization to be sure, but here goes...
I see, along with apparently a few others, the story unfolding as a greek tragedy. This is preferable to me as I love the heroic myths of our own worlds past. When viewed from this perspective, it's impossible to see the traitor primarchs as anything but lost heroes forever suffering 'what might have been syndrome'. The transformation to demonhood a grim reflection of what they were due to their own hubris. While particularly unfulfilling to many, this, to people such as myself is the end all and be all of a good story.
When viewed from a pulpy perspective perhaps (and I truly mean that with no disrespect as I know some will take offence at that term), one tends to see the primarchs as betrayed sons of a degenerate emperor. Tending to rejoice in the fact that the separation from him can only lead to a better future. From this view the transformation to a demon cannot be seen as anything less than beneficial. After all, their true power and individualism can be expressed now that the shackles have been thrown off. Epic tales of anti-heroism and power. Demonhood and loss of humanity being completely irrelevant.
The battle between Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus might be an example. Some see from a simple win lose perspective. I see it as something far more deep and complicated. To say Ferrus Manus in losing his head lost the heroic argument doesn't reflect what he gained by the tragic nature of his fluff. He couldn't reconcile the fact that his brother could betray the Emperor... and him for that matter. Some say weak, I say pretty darn cool. For some, Fulgrims nature is the more interesting as the dashing expert swordsman more so than the somewhat reclusive inventor/engineer. The weak nerd deserved to die!! Ok, lol, that's a bit harsh and somewhat incorrect, but it's funny.
From where I sit, the loyalists don't need to survive to have won the argument. They win by not sucumbing to temptation through the denial of what they knew they were completely capable of attaining because of a belief in the Emperor and duty to mankind. A closer definition of the title 'hero' in my mind.
Someone makes sense and you automatically agree? You realize you've spent a few pages in this and other threads trying to impede your own strange and twisted version of the setting?
Better dead than a minion, a slave bound in the image of a demon.
Why don't they return if they are in such good shape?
Wait..
The think they are in good shape, but thats an illusion.
They became grumpy old farts, geriatric and bitter.
Hmm, dead, and therefore having your soul devoured by Chaos, or a uberpowerful Daemon with the power to bend and shape a planet according to your whim?
I'd go with the latter.
And Guilliman undoubtedly has a more raw deal than the Daemon Primarchs. Feeling like you've been dying of poison for ten thousand years ftw.
Guilliman was not poisoned he was stabbed in the neck by fulgrim
dOOmbrEAd ? 
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
Watch the 
1700pt