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Coa and Iproxtaco: its way past being relevant.
to cap it off i agree with Iprox... coa your first post was a bit confusing and borderline ignorant. mabye an attempt to drag the discussion down to your lvl? if thats the case then improxtacos arguement is very fitting.

back on topic:
As to the question at hand id say that none of the primarchs got the better of any other. its a full-on catastrophe, which is way more interesting then simply fanboying primarch x as being the man compared to any other.

1hadhq wrote:

Brother Coa wrote: That doesn't mean that I can't joke whom time to time. And only for you I will write ( joke ) when I am joking..

iproxtaco wrote:Now you're not really making any sense

I hope I don't disturb you two on your honeymoon....

...if I post a reply to someone else.

Now this is a guy with a sense of humor...
Well done...

I feel like the rebel ones wrecked the loyal ones.

1hadhq wrote:Vast immortal armies?
Your thinking of Necrons here, not chaos.

The days of the primarchs are over, ( on usability in the fluff of M41 ), their age long gone and certainly the choice of some to vanish
( thus deemed MIA / KIA ) before their status as some sort of demi-god would turn out bad deserves more respect than the selfish bunch of demon primarchs who, just exist somewhere to do something and win/ lose something but it wouldn't matter if they died as nothing would change.

Wait, forgot nowadays they are used to cut names into them. In my time, we used trees for that.

The Daemons of Chaos are immortal, and they answer to the Daemon Primarchs.

I'm not sure what your point is. That the Loyalist Primarchs deserve more respect? Well, Lion El'Jonson and Leman Russ deserve no respect at all, but that's kind of not the point of this discussion.

Oh lovely, a Draigo joke.

1hadhq wrote:Any source for this incredible power? I mean, if they had so much power, they wouldn't obey...
Otoh, are you sure its not an illusion? Formed from thought, yes things formed like that tend to be unreal.
But, lets stick with your idea here, and these entities are...
What are they? Demons are formed by their "gods". Demon Primarchs form what type of creature? The same as greater Demons? Or demon Princes? Or just a random figure?
If it would be that easy to have your own followship, Why should they have Abby have all the fun on the other side?

The glory of the Great Crusade gets whole series, the glory of chaos just a few novels. Now consider who isn't so glorious.

You want me to prove the Daemon Primarchs have incredible power? Angron having 12 Bloodthirsters serving him as mere lieutenants not proof enough? Or Magnus casually dispelling the Rubric? Hell, Magnus could crush Titans dwarfing Warlord Titans before he was even a Daemon.

Am I sure what is not an illusion?

Daemon Primarchs are an ascended Daemonic being, elevated from their original level which already equalled that of a normal Greater Daemon, and enhanced even further.

Stop assuming that it has to happen in the Materium to be important. The Chaos Gods are more concerned with their wars in the Warp itself, which the Daemon Primarchs take part of.

It being more featured in Black Library doesn't equate to it being "grander," for lack of a better term. The Great Crusade was ultimately just a baby-step in what the C'tan accomplished eons before, the complete subjugation of the galaxy. The War in Heaven doesn't get one novel though. I'm not complaining about this, only pointing out that the Great Crusade getting more focus doesn't mean that the feats perpetrated in it are necessarily grander.

1hadhq wrote:The Heresy was needed for the story.
If the leader of the Imperium has those flaws you claim, the chaos primarchs are the epitome of their fathers flaws.
In the Emperor, things may be balanced, in his sons, the same may become condensed until nothing more is left and balance is lost.

The Heresy also was virtually brought onto the Emperor by himself. The Emperor was more arrogant than Magnus, and a bigger dick than Mortarion, your average undergrad from business school could have done a better job at managing than he did. Angron fell to Chaos almost entirely because of the Emperor being a dick, the Emperor could have easily saved Angron's fellow gladiators, but chose to save Angron alone so he would watch the men he fought and bled with be slaughtered, something Angron never forgave him for. That is but one specific example. In a more general example, the Emperor demanded mindless, unquestioning obedience from everyone, even his sons. Yet, he never stopped to think forcefully commanding others without ever telling anybody why, or telling anyone his plans, could turn out badly. That's really the Emperor's biggest fault, he expected unquestioning loyalty without ever bothering to give them a reason to give it, or explain to his sons what he was planning. Doing that would have kept Horus from beginning to resent his father making him Warmaster, and would have stopped Magnus from accidently destroying the Webway portals the Emperor was working on.

1hadhq wrote:Gullyman already has too much showtime.

Fulgrim is his own audience, we will see if this eternal POW has it worse than his brothers.
- Ferrus - presumed dead. without a head, life isn't fun.
- Sanguinius - Dead. Was his own choice, so maybe not unhappy of it.
- Khan, Corax, Russ, etc - MIA . No fluff, no way to compare their fate to Fulgrims fate.
- Vulkan - left on his own ( MIA? ), but return possible. If he hasn't run into extreme trouble, hes better off than most of his brehtren.
- Dorn - Dead. - Like sanguinius, accepted his duty.
- Gulliman - in the freezer. do we know if it hurts?
- Lion. sleeping, thus one of the better fates. Stored away, but maybe no chance on a reload.
- Horus. - erased from existance in both realms. Worst fate. He was a blind fool who didn't see it coming.
- curze.- Dead. this obsession with vindication ... got him over the edge. Sanity lost.
- angron - always angry. Yay. Blandness is his name and violence his game. Lost to a temper is not worse than dead?
- Magnus. is busy. like that archwizard sitting in his tower and scheming of his return and vengeance on those who wronged him. Good?
- Perturabo - sitting there - and-- is he still alive? Didn't move for 10 millenia...
- mortarion. - another out of buisness character that is just important enough to have a line in a codex. Back into the fog of oblivion.
- lorgar - caught in writing pamphlets. Ruined it for his brothers, deserves the worst fate. But his empoyers may feel entertainent enough to keep him around for a while.
- alpharius / omegon. Who is the dead one and how?
- fulgrim - unable to act himself, the others are better off as he can't alter his fate.

We know Guilliman is in pain because of how stasis works, you sense everything you felt before you were put in. In Guilliman's case, this is the agony of dying of poison.

Horus' fate is only arguably the worst, Fulgrim and Guilliman I would say got worse. Hell, I would say those who died have a raw deal too, since most human minds dissolve and can't retain consciousness when their soul enters the Warp. We know Eldar don't, and the Primarchs are each very likely latently psychic to a great degree. So they are conscious when their soul drifts in the Warp, or is eaten by a Greater Daemon, for instance.

Perturabo isn't doing much, but he doesn't need to. feth Guilliman, Horus, and the Lion, Perturabo is the best strategist of the Primarchs by far.

How do you figure being angry is worse than death? Also, Angron doesn't feel angry all the time, Berserkers in general can be calm outside of battle.

Edit: Oh yeah, Magnus the Red in Battle of the Fang apparently implies that Russ' current status is less than desirable.

Void__Dragon wrote:A kickass cartoon where you get to command vast immortal armies and are undying. Beats being dead.

I'm not convinced it does. Nor was Sanguinius.

English Assassin wrote:I'm not convinced it does. Nor was Sanguinius.

Most Chaos Space Marines would disagree.

Though Sanguinius was admittedly the man.

Void__Dragon wrote:

The Daemons of Chaos are immortal, and they answer to the Daemon Primarchs.

Chaos isn't truly immortal. ( codex chaos demons describes the possibility of the end of chaos ).

Demons answer to their master, their Patron, their "god".
Demon Primarchs just have the favor of one of those Masters, Patrons, "Gods" and thus control over them.
There Isn't a gurantee they couldn't lose their position.

Void__Dragon wrote:
You want me to prove the Daemon Primarchs have incredible power?

Can you?
The minion Angron sent with 12 GD and they achieved...not that much? I think the orks wrecked that planet far worse.
Do orks now outmatch GD?

Void__Dragon wrote:
The Chaos Gods are more concerned with their wars in the Warp itself, which the Daemon Primarchs take part of.

Lets see. Where? Do these wars matter?
Seems the Demon-primarchs do exactly nothing worth reporting home. For starters, if pointless battles in pointless wars nobody ever wins,
which is what chaos does since none of the four has beaten his competitors finally yet.
I am still for a win, as per the codex mentioned above, chaos ceases to exist if one of them wins..

Void__Dragon wrote: In a more general example, the Emperor demanded mindless, unquestioning obedience from everyone, even his sons. Yet, he never stopped to think forcefully commanding others without ever telling anybody why, or telling anyone his plans, could turn out badly. That's really the Emperor's biggest fault, he expected unquestioning loyalty without ever bothering to give them a reason to give it, or explain to his sons what he was planning.

Sure he did.

Void__Dragon wrote:Perturabo isn't doing much, but he doesn't need to.

The fate of the unimportant and lazy.

Void__Dragon wrote: feth Guilliman, Horus, and the Lion, Perturabo is the best strategist of the Primarchs by far.

The perturbed one was never the greatest strategist.
Maybe a source for your claim could convince me...
OtoH we know he lost his homeworld to the treachery of the WB who started the rebellion there. Great strategist that is outwitted and
acts like a puppet on strings. Oh no they don't obey! Oh no we got angry and killed them all! Oh no lets join horus and be done with these petty mortals. Perturabo has lots of issues, and is surely good at siegework and fortress design. Still no chance to compete with the less specialized strategists.

Void__Dragon wrote:How do you figure being angry is worse than death? Also, Angron doesn't feel angry all the time, Berserkers in general can be calm outside of battle.

How many of his soon to be Legion did he kill until he accepted command? Sounds calm does it?

1hadhq wrote:Chaos isn't truly immortal. ( codex chaos demons describes the possibility of the end of chaos ).

Demons answer to their master, their Patron, their "god".
Demon Primarchs just have the favor of one of those Masters, Patrons, "Gods" and thus control over them.
There Isn't a gurantee they couldn't lose their position.

If you want to be technical not even the Necrons or their C'tan masters are "truly" immortal, C'tan have died, Chaos Gods could die (And being a Necron fan, I naturally do hope for it), but functionally, Daemons, the Chaos Gods, Necrons, and C'tan are immortal.

The Daemon Primarchs act as the proxy of their god on the battlefield, being among the most favored servants. Sure, they "could" lose their position, but they haven't, and to base your argument on speculation

1hadhq wrote:]Can you?
The minion Angron sent with 12 GD and they achieved...not that much? I think the orks wrecked that planet far worse.
Do orks now outmatch GD?

Armageddon was just the last of a long string of planets to be ravaged by Angron. Seventy sectors burned when Angron left the Warp. That's greater than any Waaagh! I can recall. And the First War for Armageddon resulted in a signifigant chunk of the population being effectively executed at the mere possibility that they could have so much as heard of the war.

I don't know if you are trolling, or really ignorant enough to question the fact that the Daemon Primarchs are powerful. Are they completely insurmountable? No. But they're some of the strongest beings in the setting not named Kaldor Draigo.

1hadhq wrote:Lets see. Where? Do these wars matter?
Seems the Demon-primarchs do exactly nothing worth reporting home. For starters, if pointless battles in pointless wars nobody ever wins,
which is what chaos does since none of the four has beaten his competitors finally yet.
I am still for a win, as per the codex mentioned above, chaos ceases to exist if one of them wins..

More than the Imperium's insignifigant wars ever could. The Imperium is so far down on Chaos' list of priorities it isn't even funny.

The setting doesn't delve much into the happenings of the Warp, that doesn't make the wars insignifigant. Ultimately, the turmoil in the galaxy is only fanned to fuel these so-called "pointless battles."

1hadhq wrote:Sure he did.

I accept your concession.

1hadhq wrote:The perturbed one was never the greatest strategist.
Maybe a source for your claim could convince me...
OtoH we know he lost his homeworld to the treachery of the WB who started the rebellion there. Great strategist that is outwitted and
acts like a puppet on strings. Oh no they don't obey! Oh no we got angry and killed them all! Oh no lets join horus and be done with these petty mortals. Perturabo has lots of issues, and is surely good at siegework and fortress design. Still no chance to compete with the less specialized strategists.

Yet he outwitted both the Lion and Dorn so pathetically easily.

1hadhq wrote:How many of his soon to be Legion did he kill until he accepted command? Sounds calm does it?

About six of his captains or so I think. And that happened kind of directly after the Emperor forced him to watch the men he considered brothers be slaughtered. If you notice, Angron also did in fact calm down, and through Kharn's calming words, he accepted command of his Legion.

You do realize that those Daemon primarch are basically pawns to chaos gods, who can kill them anytime they want they simply choose not too because they make great soldiers-

the good primarch maybe scattered, lost in the webway, dead or near death but they sure as hell don't have a master that can kill them at whim.

yevix wrote:You do realize that those Daemon primarch are basically pawns to chaos gods

Describes most people in the setting.

yevix wrote:You do realize that those Daemon primarch are basically pawns to chaos gods, who can kill them anytime they want they simply choose not too because they make great soldiers-

the good primarch maybe scattered, lost in the webway, dead or near death but they sure as hell don't have a master that can kill them at whim.

The Emperor came across just as harsh, except he makes you sift through the ashes of everything you've worked and strived for.

I don't really think that applying logic to the situation works. So in the fluff Angron and 12 GD rampaged on Armageddon achieving, ah yes nothing. But that has more to do with some heavy fluff armor. If Daemon Primarchs were as powerful as they SHOULD be the 40k universe the Empire would collapse and the game would be over.

They had a blast burning 70 sectors to the ground, until they were finally stopped by an enormous battle that claimed almost a full company of Grey Knight terminators (it was a score of bloodthirsters back in the Dark Millennium days, when did it become a dozen?). Sounds like the kind of stuff any daemon, much less one of Khorne, exists for.

I fail to see your point at all. How is an existence filled with constant war and conflict a bad thing for a creature created to fight and kill a bad thing? How is that worse than being dead (and thus food for warp predators)?

Also, the Daemon Primarchs cannot manifest in the material realm for very long, and when they can, it's rarely at their full power.

Omegus wrote:(it was a score of bloodthirsters back in the Dark Millennium days, when did it become a dozen?)

Off the top of my head, the Space Wolf codex gives the number as twelve Bloodthirster lieutenants.

And yeah, Angron burned seventy sectors in the 38th Millenium, and the Imperium as of present has regained what was it? 90% of the shattered territories back in the present?

Not exactly accomplishing "nothing," IMO.

The Daemon Primarchs don't leave the Immaterium much, but when they do, gak happens.

Even Mortarion was able to kill the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights before Draigo as a Grand Master punked him.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Even Mortarion was able to kill the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights before Draigo as a Grand Master punked him.

Draigos achievements seem to me more like a bedtime story to tell the gks before they enter battle. Besides, did someone take the time to record them for him in the time he was in the warp or? theres little source explanation on the fluff in general, and its not like the gks actually take time off to identify their targets before they kill them. conversing with greater daemons to know their names before you "punk" them? yearh right...

Dark Scipio wrote:No Chaos wanted the Imperium and more imporantly the EMperor destroyed for even more carnage and whorshipping. But the emperor was just to strong and the Rebel Primarchs proved to be a bunch of egomanic loosers.


And what about the Primarchs now? In the great crusade they conquered world after world. Now they are held in bay by the Imperium and get another Penalty-time in the Warp again and again.

No, that was what Horus wanted. Just because the gods offered him this doesn't mean they ever intended him to get it.

Yes, they are held at bay, but at great cost. Almost every surviving primarch, companies of GKs dead when Angron leaves the Warp, fluff massacred when Mortarion tries the same. And the Alpha Legion isn't actually in the Eye of Terror.

Void__Dragon wrote: and to base your argument on speculation

Only adapted to your style here...

Void__Dragon wrote: Armageddon was just the last of a long string of planets to be ravaged by Angron.

M38 - m41 > banned. i think he can't start anything soon.
Yes he seems to be the only active traitor - primarch. Maybe only skulls from the material realm count.

Void__Dragon wrote: Seventy sectors burned when Angron left the Warp. That's greater than any Waaagh! I can recall.

Ork waaghs don't last for hundreds of years and no one opts to join the orks so civil unrest and rebellions aren't as likely with ork waaghs as they are with chaos involved.

Void__Dragon wrote: I don't know if you are trolling, or really ignorant enough to question the fact that the Daemon Primarchs are powerful.

Nice.

Void__Dragon wrote: The Imperium is so far down on Chaos' list of priorities it isn't even funny.

Post a list.

Void__Dragon wrote: The setting doesn't delve much into the happenings of the Warp, that doesn't make the wars insignifigant. Ultimately, the turmoil in the galaxy is only fanned to fuel these so-called "pointless battles."

It does make the wars there insignificant. 40k focuses on the other side of the mirror, thus the warp is just a transport medium, a energy reservoir, a hideout for the traitors, etc etc. Chaos has nothing to do with ork waaghs, nid hive fleets or rising necrons. Tau are also not really influenced by chaos. DE? maybe.. Eldar could be misled and used.
The wars in the warp therefore are unimportant as the only desirable outcome of a war would happen in the material realm where
opponents stay dead and don't return. Plus chaos is interested in worshippers and the races outside their home turf can provide what the warp cannot.

Void__Dragon wrote: Yet he outwitted both the Lion and Dorn so pathetically easily.

When ?
The Lion's flaw is wellknown now, but I doubt perturbo could outwit him in a conflict. The first legion was one of the most successful legions, the 4th legion was just good enough for garrison duty.
Dorn was aware of the trap and stepped into it to spring it. Outwitted? If the ultras didn't interfere, there would no pertubo and no 4th legion anymore.

Void__Dragon wrote: If you notice, Angron also did in fact calm down, and through Kharn's calming words, he accepted command of his Legion.

Kharn barely survived that.
Angron was the only primarch to reject his command ( that we know of ). But he kept on altering his legion with copies of the implants he had.

Void__Dragon wrote:

yevix wrote:You do realize that those Daemon primarch are basically pawns to chaos gods

Describes most people in the setting.

The people in the setting are:
- nids? - orks? - necrons? - De/Eldar? -Tau+allies? - humans?
The majority of the beings in 40k aren't pawns of chaos.

Omegus wrote:They had a blast burning 70 sectors to the ground, until they were finally stopped by an enormous battle that claimed almost a full company of Grey Knight terminators Sounds like the kind of stuff any daemon, much less one of Khorne, exists for.

Armageddon was attacked later. 2000 years inbetween. And directly, straight out of the warp.
The 70 sectors are from "dominion of fire/ codex CSM" ?
The rampage of Angron in this event, aimed at 3 dozen systems and lasted 3oo years. He had a lots of WE with him, but still the aftermath of his assaults is what burnt 70 sectors. Wasn't fast, another 200 years and systems seceeding from the IoM combined with more warbands incoming to get a piece of the cake.

Void__Dragon wrote: I fail to see your point at all. How is an existence filled with constant war and conflict a bad thing for a creature created to fight and kill a bad thing? How is that worse than being dead ?

An existance where you can't win. Eternal boredom.

Void__Dragon wrote:
And yeah, Angron burned seventy sectors in the 38th Millenium, and the Imperium as of present has regained what was it? 90% of the shattered territories back in the present?

Not exactly accomplishing "nothing," IMO.

Angron didn't burn 70 sectors.

He may be the single example of success.
Where is the rest?

They right?

Nearly every race in the 40k universe is a slave to somthing.

Chaos Space Marines and Daemons - The Chaos Gods
Necrons - The C'tan
Space Marines - The Emperor
Tau - The greater good
Tyranids - Dont even have minds of their own
Eldar - Their obession to perfect their aspect(Some are slaves to khaine)
Dark Eldar - Their emotions/madness

I think the only truly free race are the orks they are just having a good time. But i guess you could say orks are slaves to their need to fight. I think Eldar, Dark Eldar and Daemon Prince's have it the best they may be slaves to somthing but at least they are immortal. I dont know all that much about the Imperial Guard but im guessing they are pretty loyal to the emperor.

Uhlan wrote:There is no glory in becoming a pawn of Chaos.

To suggest that the traitor primarchs have come out on top because they're still living is to ignore what they have become and the lives they live. I'm sure it isn't an altogether joyous experience no matter how 'cool' it might seem to be a demon.

Remember as well that Fulgrim is trapped within his own body by a demon. Forced to live out his existence in that way does not seem like a victory to me.

Also remember that Fulgrim chose this fate.

Imortality must count for something, eh?

1hadhq wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote: Armageddon was just the last of a long string of planets to be ravaged by Angron.

M38 - m41 > banned. i think he can't start anything soon.
Yes he seems to be the only active traitor - primarch. Maybe only skulls from the material realm count.

Maybe it's just more enjoyable? No really, endlessly killing Daemonettes who are just re-born is a bit boring. Since Angron isn't likely to care too much about what his God wants, he's going to want to kill for real, do some damage to the empire he despises.

Void__Dragon wrote: Seventy sectors burned when Angron left the Warp. That's greater than any Waaagh! I can recall.

Ork waaghs don't last for hundreds of years and no one opts to join the orks so civil unrest and rebellions aren't as likely with ork waaghs as they are with chaos involved.

Excuses, really. Play to your strengths, Orkz have numbers, Chaos has the ability to insight rebellion. I'd doubt however that Angron and a horde of World Eaters are going to work cohesively with rebels, much like the Orkz to be fair.

Void__Dragon wrote: I don't know if you are trolling, or really ignorant enough to question the fact that the Daemon Primarchs are powerful.

Nice.

Well you are doubting the capabilites of the Daemon Primarchs.

Void__Dragon wrote: The Imperium is so far down on Chaos' list of priorities it isn't even funny.

Post a list.

The Great Game comes first. Then comes the actions of their servants and the status of their lands in the Warp. Then comes the actions of their servants in the Material realm. Then comes the general status of the mortal world, of which I'd say they have a mild indifference to most things, only really prioritizing opportunities to cause havoc occasionally and rarely taking an interest into what major events are happening.

Void__Dragon wrote: The setting doesn't delve much into the happenings of the Warp, that doesn't make the wars insignifigant. Ultimately, the turmoil in the galaxy is only fanned to fuel these so-called "pointless battles."

It does make the wars there insignificant. 40k focuses on the other side of the mirror, thus the warp is just a transport medium, a energy reservoir, a hideout for the traitors, etc etc. Chaos has nothing to do with ork waaghs, nid hive fleets or rising necrons. Tau are also not really influenced by chaos. DE? maybe.. Eldar could be misled and used.
The wars in the warp therefore are unimportant as the only desirable outcome of a war would happen in the material realm where
opponents stay dead and don't return. Plus chaos is interested in worshippers and the races outside their home turf can provide what the warp cannot.

Meaningless to those that are unaffected by them, which is no one. With the Wars in the Warp does the balance of power in the Game shift. It makes the Gods more and less powerful, makes their servants stronger, its their servants that cause the mayhem.

Void__Dragon wrote: Yet he outwitted both the Lion and Dorn so pathetically easily.

When ?
The Lion's flaw is wellknown now, but I doubt perturbo could outwit him in a conflict. The first legion was one of the most successful legions, the 4th legion was just good enough for garrison duty.
Dorn was aware of the trap and stepped into it to spring it. Outwitted? If the ultras didn't interfere, there would no pertubo and no 4th legion anymore.

Don't know about the Lion really, but Perturabo was said to have been a deeply bitter and tactical thinker, taking perverted pleasure in outwitting his brothers.
Dorn is simple though. Perturabo easily outwitted Dorn during at the Iron Cage.

Void__Dragon wrote:

yevix wrote:You do realize that those Daemon primarch are basically pawns to chaos gods

Describes most people in the setting.

The people in the setting are:
- nids? - orks? - necrons? - De/Eldar? -Tau+allies? - humans?
The majority of the beings in 40k aren't pawns of chaos.

They all can be pawns, Tau, Orkz and humans are all able to be manipulated easily enough due to their naivety and ignorance. The others not so much.

Omegus wrote:They had a blast burning 70 sectors to the ground, until they were finally stopped by an enormous battle that claimed almost a full company of Grey Knight terminators Sounds like the kind of stuff any daemon, much less one of Khorne, exists for.

Armageddon was attacked later. 2000 years inbetween. And directly, straight out of the warp.
The 70 sectors are from "dominion of fire/ codex CSM" ?
The rampage of Angron in this event, aimed at 3 dozen systems and lasted 3oo years. He had a lots of WE with him, but still the aftermath of his assaults is what burnt 70 sectors. Wasn't fast, another 200 years and systems seceeding from the IoM combined with more warbands incoming to get a piece of the cake.

Just sounds like a bunch of very thin excuses to me. Armageddon claimed billions of lives due to the actual invasion and the cull that went on afterward. Angron was only stopped by 100 Grey Knight Terminators. 100, and only a few survived. His other excursion burned 70 whole sectors. Go and find another example of 70 sectors being taken.

Void__Dragon wrote: I fail to see your point at all. How is an existence filled with constant war and conflict a bad thing for a creature created to fight and kill a bad thing? How is that worse than being dead ?

An existance where you can't win. Eternal boredom.

I fail to see your point at all. This existence is exactly what a creature created for constant war conflict wants. They won't get bored, and it's already a win for them. Edging on trolling to be perfectly honest.

Void__Dragon wrote:
And yeah, Angron burned seventy sectors in the 38th Millenium, and the Imperium as of present has regained what was it? 90% of the shattered territories back in the present?

Not exactly accomplishing "nothing," IMO.

Angron didn't burn 70 sectors.

He may be the single example of success.
Where is the rest?

They right?

Yes, him and his World Eaters. The Dominion of Fire took 70 sectors. The existence of the other is a success for them. They all have exactly what they want.

Toastedandy wrote:Bad guys never win

But they do get stonger! Good guys die or just disappear apparently!

iproxtaco wrote:
Don't know about the Lion really, but Perturabo was said to have been a deeply bitter and tactical thinker, taking perverted pleasure in outwitting his brothers.
Dorn is simple though. Perturabo easily outwitted Dorn during at the Iron Cage.

IA: Imperial Fists
Dorn would not tolerate this. Without his customary caution and planning, Dorn led his men into the heart of the Iron Warrior defences. The battle should have favoured the treacherous trench-fighters, but the Imperial Fists endured. They countered every ambush and fought their way out of every trap. Rogal Dorn was a colossus who personally turned back attack after attack. Ammunition expended, Brothers fought in half-flooded trenches with combat knives, giving and expecting no quarter. Eventually it became apparent that the Iron Warriors could not finish them. For all their skill and ferocity, the Iron Warriors lacked the faith to make the ultimate sacrifice that victory demanded. While they paused, the Ultramarines intervened; Guilliman had decided that Perturabo's destruction was not worth the loss of Rogal Dorn and had brought his Chapter to drive off the Iron Warriors.

IA: Iron Warriors
If Perturabo had a failing it was that he had grown to eniov tormenting his enemies too much. He could have finished off the Imperial Fists at any time but chose not to. Fortunately for Rogal Dorn, Roboute Guilliman put the Impcnum before pride and had brought the Ultramarines to the rescue.

Different views on the same thing, Dorns failing on the Iron Cage incident is that he let his rage cloud his judgment.

Perturabo was definitely not a slouch though

Perturabo was a master of fortification whose writings had been retained by Guilliman in his Codex.

This may be attributable to his technical genius that was far in advance of any of the others. Perturabo could match wits with Adeptus Mechanicus Magi on anything from warp drives to macro cannons. This was reflected in the way his deeds are recorded in the legends passed down from those times

But does technical genius match tactical genius?

It's hard to comment on who out of the Primarchs has it worse, I think Angron is probably one of the happiest despite being banished for 100 years and a day and all. The majority of the Daemon Primarchs don't seem to have any concern with what goes on in the mortal plane anymore.

I can imagine Fulgrim isn't happy, if he is still trapped. I don't think Lorgar is happy either, knowing what he caused. Horus doesn't know anything, so he's nice and peaceful. Magnus probably has Russ locked in a cage somewhere. Peturabo is brooding on his mistakes. Alpharius is a bit of a dark horse, his agenda is a bit of a mystery. Nighthaunter is dead. Mortarion has a cold, so is also happy.

At least the Daemon Primarchs are up and about and able to do stuff. The loyalists that aren't dead are either being poked by nasty things in the warp or have bits of their anatomy in some kind of stasis, or whole bits in Guillimans case.

iproxtaco wrote:
Since Angron isn't likely to care too much about what his God wants, he's going to want to kill for real, do some damage to the empire he despises.

I see . The other primarchs lost any interest in this, just Angron can't get off it.

iproxtaco wrote:Well you are doubting the capabilites of the Daemon Primarchs.

Why not?
Is it heresy?

Did I miss the post where the capabilities of the Demon-Primarchs ( thus post heresy ) are shown?
Primarch "S", like more than just Angron if possible. Please.

iproxtaco wrote:
Don't know about the Lion really, but Perturabo was said to have been a deeply bitter and tactical thinker, taking perverted pleasure in outwitting his brothers.
Dorn is simple though. Perturabo easily outwitted Dorn during at the Iron Cage.

The excellence of the Primarchs is only hinted at, so yes its hard to put their abilities on confirmed levels.
But there is no doubt, the iron cage inherited the possibility that both Legions are destroyed and both Primarchs dead.
So Perturabo guessed right at Dorn' "love" for him. To spot the obvious...

iproxtaco wrote:They all can be pawns, Tau, Orkz and humans are all able to be manipulated easily enough due to their naivety and ignorance. The others not so much.

I like the order of this list.

iproxtaco wrote:
Armageddon claimed billions of lives due to the actual invasion and the cull that went on afterward. Angron was only stopped by 100 Grey Knight Terminators. 100, and only a few survived.

Angron wasn't alone there
As the cc-specialist of the Primarchs, less than 100 GKt would be a shame.

iproxtaco wrote:His other excursion burned 70 whole sectors. Go and find another example of 70 sectors being taken.

Taken?.
Attacked and burnt without any consideration of taking the systems. If you count the secessionists and the other warbands,
Angron directly influenced the violence but didn't conquer 70 sectors.
How about a bit of honesty and a quote? Truth is, angron razed 3 dozen systems. 3 x12.
The aftermath of his incursion set 70 sectors on fire. Not the same thing.

Look at solar macharius. As a member of the imperial guard, he conquered a 1000 worlds, without demons or tons of space marines to back him up. I'd say there is more success to be had pre-heresy and some Primarchs may have burnt more than 70 setors in the great crusade.

iproxtaco wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
An existance where you can't win. Eternal boredom.

They won't get bored, and it's already a win for them. Edging on trolling to be perfectly honest.

iproxtaco wrote:No really, endlessly killing Daemonettes who are just re-born is a bit boring.

Identical statement but mine is not ok???

iproxtaco wrote: This existence is exactly what a creature created for constant war conflict wants.

Pure speculation. The Primarchs may have aimed for constant war as their daily bread & butter. May, because I wouldn't be too sure of it.
It were 20 of them and the 18 we know of were different enough in personality. Maybe one or more wouldn't mind an end to constant conflicts? The power hungry may have disliked times of "peace" ( i know, i said the bad word ), but exmples could be:

- Lorgar if he could have his way. Let him spread the word and he has no interest in wars. Just controlled applications of violence to keep the faithful focused and the unbelievers away.

- Gulliman if he had to organize supplies and recrutement. Fine he'd nerve everyone still with this codex he wrote, but I think he is the one who got a chance against the bureaucrats on their own turf.

- Dorn. Always follows orders. wouldn't need constant conflict. Just his Emperor to give him duties.

- Magnus. allow him to dig through every myth and secret and he is not interested in conflicts. War endangers also the remnants of wisdom and knowledge.

- some tech-savvy primarchs like ferrus or vulkan could focus on innovation and the reclamation of archeotech. Nothing hints on any suggestion they want constant war.

thats just a small first batch I can think of.
Except the bloody Angron and maybe the glory-hog horus, most Primarchs could live with the tides of war&peace.
Constant conflict isn't neccessary nor wanted.

Fulgrim chose oblivion. The daemon was simply creative in its implementation.


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1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Well you are doubting the capabilites of the Daemon Primarchs.

Why not?
Is it heresy?

Did I miss the post where the capabilities of the Demon-Primarchs ( thus post heresy ) are shown?
Primarch "S", like more than just Angron if possible. Please.

It's not heresy, it's just colossally stupid.

But if you want an example, check out Magnus after he manifested through one of his captains in Battle for the Fang. He effortlessly strides through defenses that had kept a whole army at bay for days. The Wolves unleash "enough firepower to level a whole company of traitor marines" and fail to even singe his robes. He carves through half a dozen dreadnoughts like they were toys. The big fancy-pants Rune Priest that had been bitchslapping tanks with his storm powers steps up, and Magnus pops him like a grape with a sideways glance. Basically, imagine Space Wolves miniatures vs. a 5-year old after a double espresso.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Since Angron isn't likely to care too much about what his God wants, he's going to want to kill for real, do some damage to the empire he despises.

I see . The other primarchs lost any interest in this, just Angron can't get off it.

I suppose, although the ending of one of the Word Bearers books hints that at least one other might take a major interest in the future. Can you guess which one?

iproxtaco wrote:Well you are doubting the capabilites of the Daemon Primarchs.

Why not?
Is it heresy?

Did I miss the post where the capabilities of the Demon-Primarchs ( thus post heresy ) are shown?
Primarch "S", like more than just Angron if possible. Please.

They're highly powerful Daemon Princes. I don't think there needs to be too much more discussion. They Daemons on par or greater than the Greater Daemons, Angron does have a posse of Bloodthirsters. They obviously command a large amount of respect amongst the Dark Gods servants and the Traitor Legions. They're favored of their Gods, considering they've been elevated to Daemonhood.

iproxtaco wrote:
Don't know about the Lion really, but Perturabo was said to have been a deeply bitter and tactical thinker, taking perverted pleasure in outwitting his brothers.
Dorn is simple though. Perturabo easily outwitted Dorn during at the Iron Cage.

The excellence of the Primarchs is only hinted at, so yes its hard to put their abilities on confirmed levels.
But there is no doubt, the iron cage inherited the possibility that both Legions are destroyed and both Primarchs dead.
So Perturabo guessed right at Dorn' "love" for him. To spot the obvious...

I think there is doubt. The Imperial Fists were led into a trap, separated and pinned-down and were unable to fight for 19 years afterwards. The Ultramarines were required to save the Fists. The Iron Warriors escaped and built their own little holiday retreat in the Eye of Terror.

iproxtaco wrote:They all can be pawns, Tau, Orkz and humans are all able to be manipulated easily enough due to their naivety and ignorance. The others not so much.

I like the order of this list.

Not sure if you responded to the wrong quote.

iproxtaco wrote:
Armageddon claimed billions of lives due to the actual invasion and the cull that went on afterward. Angron was only stopped by 100 Grey Knight Terminators. 100, and only a few survived.

Angron wasn't alone there
As the cc-specialist of the Primarchs, less than 100 GKt would be a shame.

So you admit he's that powerful now?

iproxtaco wrote:His other excursion burned 70 whole sectors. Go and find another example of 70 sectors being taken.

Taken?.
Attacked and burnt without any consideration of taking the systems. If you count the secessionists and the other warbands,
Angron directly influenced the violence but didn't conquer 70 sectors.
How about a bit of honesty and a quote? Truth is, angron razed 3 dozen systems. 3 x12.
The aftermath of his incursion set 70 sectors on fire. Not the same thing.

Look at solar macharius. As a member of the imperial guard, he conquered a 1000 worlds, without demons or tons of space marines to back him up. I'd say there is more success to be had pre-heresy and some Primarchs may have burnt more than 70 setors in the great crusade.

Taken, destroyed, burnt, the word doesn't matter, they were no longer in under the control of the Imperium due to Angron's crusade.
Great, Solar Macharius obviously did that all by himself, didn't he? Flawed comparison is flawed. He had a silly amount of Guard Regiments and warships.

iproxtaco wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
An existance where you can't win. Eternal boredom.

They won't get bored, and it's already a win for them. Edging on trolling to be perfectly honest.

iproxtaco wrote:No really, endlessly killing Daemonettes who are just re-born is a bit boring.

Identical statement but mine is not ok???

Mix the order up and take them out of context, good job.

iproxtaco wrote: This existence is exactly what a creature created for constant war conflict wants.

Pure speculation. The Primarchs may have aimed for constant war as their daily bread & butter. May, because I wouldn't be too sure of it.
It were 20 of them and the 18 we know of were different enough in personality. Maybe one or more wouldn't mind an end to constant conflicts? The power hungry may have disliked times of "peace" ( i know, i said the bad word ), but exmples could be:

Referring to Angron really, or most of the Daemon Primarchs with a few exceptions.

- Lorgar if he could have his way. Let him spread the word and he has no interest in wars. Just controlled applications of violence to keep the faithful focused and the unbelievers away.

The one exception, although a holy war against non-beleivers is a fine way for him to exist.

- Gulliman if he had to organize supplies and recrutement. Fine he'd nerve everyone still with this codex he wrote, but I think he is the one who got a chance against the bureaucrats on their own turf.

- Dorn. Always follows orders. wouldn't need constant conflict. Just his Emperor to give him duties.

- Magnus. allow him to dig through every myth and secret and he is not interested in conflicts. War endangers also the remnants of wisdom and knowledge.

- some tech-savvy primarchs like ferrus or vulkan could focus on innovation and the reclamation of archeotech. Nothing hints on any suggestion they want constant war.

Most of the rest are dead or missing, Magnus is quite happy with eternal war.

thats just a small first batch I can think of.
Except the bloody Angron and maybe the glory-hog horus, most Primarchs could live with the tides of war&peace.
Constant conflict isn't neccessary nor wanted.

Well, it is. It's one of Lorgar's key character elements, being the only Primarch who didn't want to be a soldier, who doesn't relish in combat and war. Now however, he'd relish prosecuting a holy war.

1hadhq wrote:Only adapted to your style here...

If you were adapting to my style, you wouldn't base your argument on speculation. Silly. :3

1hadhq wrote:M38 - m41 > banned. i think he can't start anything soon.
Yes he seems to be the only active traitor - primarch. Maybe only skulls from the material realm count.

Not anything on the material realm, probably not. It takes a good deal of power to summon a Daemon Primarch.

And Mortarion and Magnus have both left. Mortarion dealt the Grey Knights a heavy toll before Draigo banished him, killing the previous Supreme Grand Master. Magnus destroyed the research of fixing the geneseed of the Space Wolves.

1hadhq wrote:Ork waaghs don't last for hundreds of years and no one opts to join the orks so civil unrest and rebellions aren't as likely with ork waaghs as they are with chaos involved.

Point? The Dominion of Fire (I was admittedly confused and thought the First War for Armageddon directly succeeded that) caused more damage than any Ork Waaagh! except arguably Ghazghkull's. Angron and his forces burned three dozens systems by himself, that he incited rebellions and destroyed seventy sectors with the afterburn of his personal rampage is just a testament of the Daemon Primarch's power.

1hadhq wrote:Nice.

I thought so too.

No, but, seriously, you're really questioning that the Daemon Primarchs are powerful? They were powerful before they ever became Daemons.

Angron's Dominion of Fire is some post-heresy showings, oh, and Magnus of course casually dispelling the Rubric of Ahriman. Omegus provided you with some feats from Battle of the Fang I was not aware of.

But even when they were "merely" Primarchs Angron could weather Lascannon fire, as could Corax, and Magnus could destroy Titans personally, as well as destroying the surface of Prospero.

1hadhq wrote:Post a list.

Nah, already been done for me. It lets me be lazy.

But the Great Game is at the top of the Chaos Gods' priorities, above all else.

1hadhq wrote:It does make the wars there insignificant. 40k focuses on the other side of the mirror, thus the warp is just a transport medium, a energy reservoir, a hideout for the traitors, etc etc. Chaos has nothing to do with ork waaghs, nid hive fleets or rising necrons. Tau are also not really influenced by chaos. DE? maybe.. Eldar could be misled and used.
The wars in the warp therefore are unimportant as the only desirable outcome of a war would happen in the material realm where
opponents stay dead and don't return. Plus chaos is interested in worshippers and the races outside their home turf can provide what the warp cannot.

The war directly affect the Immaterium, the Materium is just as bound to the Immaterium as the Immaterium is to it. What affects on affects the other. Chaos is currently the greatest threat to the Imperium at the moment, and the wars in the Warp dictate the strength of the gods. Which can kind of change the Daemons and followers of a given gods' lot in life. So they do have a motivation to fight.

The only real interest the Chaos Gods have in the Materium is in who can provide them more power. Power to fuel their wars in the Warp.

The War in Heaven has like three pages going over it, yet what happened then resulted in much of current 40k. Just because something is not the focus doesn't mean it isn't important.

1hadhq wrote:When ?
The Lion's flaw is wellknown now, but I doubt perturbo could outwit him in a conflict. The first legion was one of the most successful legions, the 4th legion was just good enough for garrison duty.
Dorn was aware of the trap and stepped into it to spring it. Outwitted? If the ultras didn't interfere, there would no pertubo and no 4th legion anymore.

Perturabo: Gimme your tanks and I'll support you for Warmaster.
Lion: Well that sounds completely fair and reasonable, Perturabo, possibly the least-liked and most suspect alleged loyalist Primarch. Just promise me they'll be put to good use.
Perturabo: Oh, don't worry. They will. *trollface*

I was mostly joking, for the record.

1hadhq wrote:Kharn barely survived that.
Angron was the only primarch to reject his command ( that we know of ). But he kept on altering his legion with copies of the implants he had.

Kharn is lucky he survived at all.

Angron rejected his command because he never wanted to lead a Legion for the Emperor. He wanted to fight alongside the men he bonded with and die a glorious death. The Emperor didn't just take the glory from him, he made him watch his men get slaughtered. I think we can forgive him for being a little upset about that.

1hadhq wrote:The people in the setting are:
- nids? - orks? - necrons? - De/Eldar? -Tau+allies? - humans?
The majority of the beings in 40k aren't pawns of chaos.

Necrons aren't pawns of Chaos by virtue of being slaves of the C'tan. And not being people, same with Tyranids.

Orks, Eldar, Tau, and humans certainly can be pawns of Chaos and have been used as such.

1hadhq wrote:Armageddon was attacked later. 2000 years inbetween. And directly, straight out of the warp.
The 70 sectors are from "dominion of fire/ codex CSM" ?
The rampage of Angron in this event, aimed at 3 dozen systems and lasted 3oo years. He had a lots of WE with him, but still the aftermath of his assaults is what burnt 70 sectors. Wasn't fast, another 200 years and systems seceeding from the IoM combined with more warbands incoming to get a piece of the cake.

Yeah, doublechecked, you're right. But three dozen systems is still more fruitful than most Ork Waaaghs, not sure why you are so determined to argue against this.

1hadhq wrote:Angron didn't burn 70 sectors.

He may be the single example of success.
Where is the rest?

They right?

He initiated the conflict that burned the sectors. Close enough.

They mostly war in the Warp, but I mentioned Magnus and Mortarion.

1hadhq wrote:Taken?.
Attacked and burnt without any consideration of taking the systems. If you count the secessionists and the other warbands,
Angron directly influenced the violence but didn't conquer 70 sectors.
How about a bit of honesty and a quote? Truth is, angron razed 3 dozen systems. 3 x12.
The aftermath of his incursion set 70 sectors on fire. Not the same thing.

Look at solar macharius. As a member of the imperial guard, he conquered a 1000 worlds, without demons or tons of space marines to back him up. I'd say there is more success to be had pre-heresy and some Primarchs may have burnt more than 70 setors in the great crusade.

Macharius had far more resources and men than 50,000 Berserkers, and wasn't battling the Imperium of Man either. It's not like Macharius did it alone, and he did it through brilliant strategy, rather than fury and martial power.

1hadhq wrote:Pure speculation. The Primarchs may have aimed for constant war as their daily bread & butter. May, because I wouldn't be too sure of it.
It were 20 of them and the 18 we know of were different enough in personality. Maybe one or more wouldn't mind an end to constant conflicts? The power hungry may have disliked times of "peace" ( i know, i said the bad word ), but exmples could be:

- Lorgar if he could have his way. Let him spread the word and he has no interest in wars. Just controlled applications of violence to keep the faithful focused and the unbelievers away.

- Magnus. allow him to dig through every myth and secret and he is not interested in conflicts. War endangers also the remnants of wisdom and knowledge.

Except the bloody Angron and maybe the glory-hog horus, most Primarchs could live with the tides of war&peace.
Constant conflict isn't neccessary nor wanted.

Lorgar couldn't do that under the Emperor. In fact, the Emperor explicitly forbid it, and brutally chastised him for it. But the Chaos Gods not only allowed it, they rewarded him for it. Lorgar is very much content.

Magnus couldn't do that either, the Emperor forbade it. Though, that's not why Magnus turned. But Magnus seems to be under the impression he is better off than Leman Russ.

Mortarion desired a world where the strong ruled the weak, did he not? Now he owns a world where that is the case. Ironic that one of the more sinister primarchs serves Nurgle.

Perturabo was mostly butthurt about being pigeon-holed, and there is basically no fluff on him after the Heresy so it is hard to say how he is.

With Alpharius/Omegon, it's impossible to be sure what's up with them.

Fulgrim (The Primarch) did get a very raw deal though.

Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:Does anyone else think that the loyal primarchs got completely wrecked by the rebel Primarchs? I mean about 7 of the Rebel ones are Greater Demons and may still be alive while all of the Loyal ones are either MIa or KIA. I mean seriously, how didn't the Chaos Marines win, they had numbers and were getting through the fortress. They probably could've held off the loyalists coming too. WHat are your guys' thoughts?

You can't BECOME a greater daemon, you can only BECOME a daemon prince. Greater daemon are pure daemon sauce, DP are mortals made into daemons.

The loyalist primarchs had to all die off or go into hiding or off on great hunts. If they hadn't they still be present in the 41st millenia and thus would likely need stats for campaigns, apocalypse, etc. I think they were dealt with to keep them out of the game's timeline. think of it as the opposite of plot armor to balance the game.

The_Stormrider wrote:The loyalist primarchs had to all die off or go into hiding or off on great hunts. If they hadn't they still be present in the 41st millenia and thus would likely need stats for campaigns, apocalypse, etc. I think they were dealt with to keep them out of the game's timeline. think of it as the opposite of plot armor to balance the game.

That's what I've always suspected.

Because in some fluff primarchs get owned by a pair of termies, in others they cut through hundreds of astartes without even breaking a sweat.

I think that's how the majority of GW fluff works. Otherwise we'd probably have custodes, ad mech and others. Wanting to put them in the game is also probably why GW made the C'tan weaker than they were however many hundreds of thousands of years ago.

Void__Dragon wrote:Perturabo: Gimme your tanks and I'll support you for Warmaster.
Lion: Well that sounds completely fair and reasonable, Perturabo, possibly the least-liked and most suspect alleged loyalist Primarch. Just promise me they'll be put to good use.
Perturabo: Oh, don't worry. They will. *trollface*

I was mostly joking, for the record.

Why joke? That's pretty much verbatim what happened.