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I have been playing Chaos Space Marines since before they even had a codex in 2nd edition. It pains me to say it, but in the current state of the game they are not only an under-powered codex, they are very nearly the *worst* codex. The simple truth of the matter is that in almost every case a Chaos Space Marine unit is both more expensive and worse at its job than a unit with a similar role from another codex, MEQ or otherwise. Here are some of the more glaring examples:

10 Chaos marines with two melta guns and an icon of chaos glory: 180

10 Grey Hunters, 2 melta guns: 155

5 havocs, 4 missile launchers, icon of chaos glory: 165

5 Long Fangs, 4 missile launchers: 115

10 raptors, 2 melta guns, Icon of chaos glory: 230

10 assault marines, 2 melta guns: 200 (BA)

Chaos Predator, autocannon turret, lascannon sponsons: 130

Space Marine Predator, as above: 120

10 Berzerkers: 210

10 Death Company: 200 (but these ones have FNP and relentless, and can take more CC upgrades)

10 Lesser Daemons: 130

10 Ork Slugga Boyz: 60

In every case here, the Chaos choice is more expensive, and also lacks access to things like FNP, Furious Charge, Counter Attack, which *used* to be something you could purchase for *any* chaos unit (well, the FNP was reserved for khornate chosen/characters) to represent their thousands of years of experience. Now Chaos are the newbie chumps, and everyone else is a bad ass veteran. I added in the Icon of Chaos Glory where needed because ATSKNF is an extremely powerful morale boosting ability. 1 higher LD and re-rollable morale is in fact much worse, because you can still get sweeping advanced, and you will still never regroup above half str.

But, you'll say, what about the Chaos specific stuff like Obliterators, Daemon Princes, Lash of Submission, and Defilers?

Obliterators and Daemon Princes both are far too vulnerable to both small arms and heavy weapons fire. The dreaded "lash prince" which according to internet lore is converted out of 100% pure Wisconsin's finest, is particularly fragile as it is only T5 and 3+/5+. The Nurgle Warptime Prince is 175 points, and although harder to hurt with str 4, goes down just as badly to krak missiles, which good lists have in plenty. Ever wonder why you never see a Khornate daemon prince any more? It's because they're the worst choice defensively and offensively. The lack of access to 2+ armor and 3++ invuln saves to Chaos HQs simply makes them entirely second tier to Imperial HQs, and even the humble (or not so humble!) Ork Warboss can be nearly as tough, and more damaging, for less than 2/3 the points.

Obliterators are still considered to be powerful by most of the internet, but are not a good value for the firepower you get, nor are they as durable as claimed. Facing against lists with Broadsides, Vendettas, Lascannon Heavy Weapon Squads, attack bikes, melta guns, multi-meltas, fire prisms, bright lances, dark lances, etc. they are very easy to instant-kill. Even facing against lists that don't have these tools (I guess that leaves nids...) they can be killed with small-arms fire or melee without *too* much difficulty, as they have one wound per 37.5 points. Most of the time you're going to be shooting one lascannon per obliterator, or perhaps one plasma cannon per obliterator. So for 150 points, say, you're effectively getting half of a devastator squad. If you look at even a Chaos Predator with lascannon sponsons, you're getting those two lascannon shots, plus an autocannon, on a hull that is *immune* to small arms or poison fire, and is actually less vulnerable to lances or lascannons too, for less points.

Defilers are *ok* but are still a gigantic "shoot me" sign on a 150 point AV12 hull that can't decide whether it wants to be shooty or Close Combat oriented, and isn't really spectacular at either.

In conclusion please dispel any myths you might have had that Chaos Space Marines is still a vibrant and viable codex. It is both lacking in variety to even the Space Marine codex, that most creamy of vanilla codices, and lacking in power and points efficiency to any codex out there, other than maybe Tau and Necrons.

willydstyle wrote:I have been playing Chaos Space Marines since before they even had a codex in 2nd edition. It pains me to say it, but in the current state of the game they are not only an under-powered codex, they are very nearly the *worst* codex. The simple truth of the matter is that in almost every case a Chaos Space Marine unit is both more expensive and worse at its job than a unit with a similar role from another codex, MEQ or otherwise. Here are some of the more glaring examples:

First of all, respectfully, this post looks like flamebait or just a long QQ. I've read many of your other posts and respect your opinions, so this post seems uncharacteristic from you.

CSM is an older codex and is suffering from codex creep. As a codex gets older, the number of viable builds drops, until a codex is left with very few -- such as Eldar, Tau, or Necrons. The fact is a BA or SW player has multiple competitive builds they can base their army off of, and they all work. An Eldar player has 1 competitive build and 1 semi-competitive build. (I use Eldar as an example as I play the army) The CSM codex appears to be in a similar place.

If your playing an older codex, you have one of two practical options.
First, you can soak as much as you can from the codex and do moderately well in tournaments but accept that an equal skilled general with equal amounts of luck will on average win if they are playing a top teir codex. That does not mean you will lose every game, as the other two elements in that sentence (luck and general) can make a huge difference!

Secondly you can play them 'as counts' for another army of your choice. There is nothing to stop you from playing them as BA. Just give your bezerkers the same rules as death company. Give your CSM the same rules as BA assault marines (ie, lose the bolters). Make Mephiston a sorcerer lord (which fits quite well actually).

Your point that the difference only really comes into play when playing against a general of similar skill is a good one, and is, in the end, really the point I'm trying to make. I simply see comments way to often to the tune of "oh they're still good if you play them right."

However, that simply is not a meaningful statement, as codex power can *only* really be judged under "ideal" circumstances where both players are of equal skill and the mission or terrain does not favor one army over the other to any large degree.

One of the big problems with Chaos is that even its "competitive" build is not really very powerful or efficient compared to even the less competitive build from newer books.

willydstyle wrote:Your point that the difference only really comes into play when playing against a general of similar skill is a good one, and is, in the end, really the point I'm trying to make. I simply see comments way to often to the tune of "oh they're still good if you play them right."

Agreed. Anyone who tells you 'your not playing them right' must not be playing in a competitive environment.

willydstyle wrote:However, that simply is not a meaningful statement, as codex power can *only* really be judged under "ideal" circumstances where both players are of equal skill and the mission or terrain does not favor one army over the other to any large degree.

A lot of codex power levels can be determined from tournament results. I found this post on the Nova (a highly competitive tournament) army results, and its very applicable here.
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/09/nova-statistics-part-1.html

Now, the percentages may be off due to small sample size (6 players out of 204) but that in itself speaks volumes. If the CSM were viewed as even a mid-teir codex then their would be a greater percentage of people playing them.

willydstyle wrote:One of the big problems with Chaos is that even its "competitive" build is not really very powerful or efficient compared to even the less competitive build from newer books.

Again, that's codex creep. Whats interesting is that at the same time some builds become more competitive. In terms of the Eldar, since GK hit the table, runes of warding has become better as it wraith-bones the entire GK army.
Overall though, its what happens when your codex ages. As CSM is a MEQ, if you want to win at tourneys I would play them as BA.

Use codex spaze marines or blood angels..

Phototoxin wrote:Use codex spaze marines or blood angels..

Vanilla marines for chaos? Unless they're just renegades I think they dont have enough "chaosy" elements. Space Wolves or Blood Angels fit though. Hell....to a lesser extent grey knights even (they might make good malal cults)


Anyways to those loyal to codex: chaos space marines, you could either see if the locals is willing to accept fan dexes or something or pray you get a decent author for you next book (heck, I'd take even matt ward if that means we can be top tier!)

BA fits well because they can be very assaulty and have a few core units with translate well
- Devastators to Havocs
- Death Company to Bezerkers
- Razorback spam to Havoc Spam
- Mephiston is a perfect sorcerer lord.

SW fits well also. While its less assaulty than BA, its got a few nice options
- Juggernauts instead of thunderwolves
- Havocs can be used as Long Fangs
- CSM make perfect Grey Hunters
- Dreads are ... well ... dreads
- Wolf guard can all be geared differently giving a very chaos'y feel (works very well with terminators)

To keep true to the fluff, I would avoid things like stormravens or LR variants other than god-hammer. Luckly, those codex's are tough enough to do that and still be competitive.

The core of chaos remaining competitive is in its troop choices...

CSM Mok 180 pts for base 30 attacks
10 SW 150 pts for base 10 attacks 20 with countercharge

Death guard - FNP troop choice

EC - overpriced shooty but 20 attacks at I 5

Berzerkers - 30 attacks and WS 5

As 5th edition puts a bonus on troop choices that can contest and actually claim objectives, the strength of chaos still stands.

The problem is getting to the supporting elements -

- pskers with no anti-psychic defence.
- over-priced or weak heavy choices.
- non-existent good fast attack choices.

That leaves you the troops and the elites to make your hay. Don't scoff at 30 pt termies especially with MoS as now they are going first compared to most things. Chosen
are purpose-built but useful. Possessed - well they sucked when the codex came out. High-cost + random ability (some of which suck) yields a unit that I would never play.

I am one of those players who say "your not playinf right". I just entered the tourny scene 3 months ago period. And so far I have place top 3 in each tourny I have enteried with csm. Including winning first round of hard bouyz and placing 2nd at the states biggest tourny.... both of which very competative.

I understand a bit of what your saying. I am forced to play one way and one way only. But right now csm still have some increadibly powerfull units.

Hq: deamon princes. Point for pound they are probably the best hq in this game. They effect every aspect in this game.

Elites: small cheap deepstriking termies are the only comp build out there.. but they work. And work well

Troops: csm are still pretty good. Not grey gunters but better then most troops in this game
Berzerkers are expensive but if used right they can rampage very well. I had them nearlly clear out an entire crismon fist army my last tourny.

Fast: bah

Heavy: a pair of obliterators deepstriking righ in the middle of the battle is still increadibly amazing...

So if you stick to the above units and use them well you can play competativlym.. it just makes me sad I can't bring my thousand sons to a tourny ever... :(

Chaos is still very viable, they are still MEQ and still will wreck your face off...

deffskulla wrote:Chaos is still very viable, they are still MEQ and still will wreck your face off...

Willydstyle is right that CSM is a bit overpriced. But comparison on a unit-by-unit basis is too low-level to be a criterion for viability. I played EC vs. several opponents - veterans, but not really top ranked guys. From this, my judgement is a bit different namely that CSM is still viable as said.

Good CSM forces are 1) Rhino based with CSM, Cult Marines, Chosen, Havocs mounted in Rhinos and led by two lash Sorcerers, 2) Monster mash with 2 DPs, GD, 3 Dreads, 3 Defilers, and Daemons, and 3) PM based list with Obliterators, winged DPs with MoN.

I'd argue that Chaos is still viable as a hard counter to certain armies that are currently dominating the Tournament scene (Deathwing, for example, that gives my Mech IG fits). They do it via Lash and PC synergy, which unfortunately is only found in the HQ and HS FOC sections. But really, your 2 Lash Sorcerors and 9 Oblits comes to 925 points, so it's exactly half of the ubiquitous 1,850 point army standard.

If you wanted to flesh it out, perhaps 3x Dreadnoughts w/ Plasma Cannons would be neat for a change of pace, then fill in with 5-man 2x SW Plague Marine squads and perhaps a medium-sized Berzerker unit for counter-assault.


Chaos isn't *as* viable as a TAC army in the same way that Mech IG, SW, BA and GK have very few "bad matchups", but it does provide a hard counter to certain armies that give them a hard time and for that reason I do believe it's viable in a competitive setting.

Absolutely agree with the OP. If you look at comparably priced things CSM cannot compete. Overall, that stuff adds up up and the CSM player is at a sizable handicap versus the new Dexes. Besides the overcosted nature of their units, other issues include:

1. Lack of range. This is a big one. The army can get ranged firepower in all of 1 slot: heavy support. Elites have Dreds but those are unreliable and suffer from the built in real life consequence of constantly having to discuss the way "fire frenzy" is played.

2. The death of monsterous creatures. Maybe not complete death, but the big guys have taken a big hit lately. Large amounts of st 8 and poisoned shots is a death sentence. A 2+ armor save or 3++ would make them viable again.

3. Lack of speed. The army is just not fast. There is no way to do anything about this really.

4. Lack of psychic defense. This is becoming more and more important.

Add it all together and you have a bad codex. I wouldn't say the worst, but definitely bad.

Because you have trouble winning with them, doesn't me they are not good. It means you are not good with them.

Play a different army and quit your complaining, or change your tactics and learn to play Chaos in a way you have not yet.

willydstyle wrote:
10 Death Company: 200 (but these ones have FNP and relentless, and can take more CC upgrades)

While I agree with some of your posts, I think you're being dishonest. If you're going to compare units, you can't just take the good part of a unit in order to enforce your point. Rage is a pretty huge disadvantage, especially as they can't score either.

JGrand wrote:Absolutely agree with the OP. If you look at comparably priced things CSM cannot compete. Overall, that stuff adds up up and the CSM player is at a sizable handicap versus the new Dexes. Besides the overcosted nature of their units, other issues include:

1. Lack of range. This is a big one. The army can get ranged firepower in all of 1 slot: heavy support. Elites have Dreds but those are unreliable and suffer from the built in real life consequence of constantly having to discuss the way "fire frenzy" is played.

2. The death of monsterous creatures. Maybe not complete death, but the big guys have taken a big hit lately. Large amounts of st 8 and poisoned shots is a death sentence. A 2+ armor save or 3++ would make them viable again.

3. Lack of speed. The army is just not fast. There is no way to do anything about this really.

4. Lack of psychic defense. This is becoming more and more important.

Add it all together and you have a bad codex. I wouldn't say the worst, but definitely bad.

ad 1. Chaos has Havocs with missile launchers and autocannons, Obliterators, and Defilers.
ad 2. The MCs of Nids or Daemons are also vulnerable to certain weapons.
ad 3. How much speed do you need in objective based games? Two-third of the games in a competitive setting are of this type.
ad 4. Ask Orks or Tau about that.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

willydstyle wrote:
10 Death Company: 200 (but these ones have FNP and relentless, and can take more CC upgrades)

While I agree with some of your posts, I think you're being dishonest. If you're going to compare units, you can't just take the good part of a unit in order to enforce your point. Rage is a pretty huge disadvantage, especially as they can't score either.

Rage is a disadvantage, but one that is largely mitigated by taking a transport for the unit. And berzerkers being scoring has almost never mattered because they are an aggressive unit that is generally dead by the end of a game anyways. You can't score if you're dead. Despite rage, the fact that death company have FNP and are *less expensive* than berzerkers is simply a huge insult.

ad 1. Chaos has Havocs with missile launchers and autocannons, Obliterators, and Defilers.
ad 2. The MCs of Nids or Daemons are also vulnerable to certain weapons.
ad 3. How much speed do you need in objective based games? Two-third of the games in a competitive setting are of this type.
ad 4. Ask Orks or Tau about that.

Right....

1. All of those things you listed (the long range stuff) is fighting for three heavy support slots...thanks for backing up my point friend. Meanwhile, all of the other Marine dexes can pack in range at all the other slots.

2. And how are Nids doing these days.... Again, I appreciate the support.

3. In NoVa style 5 objective games, it depends. If you have speed it can really help. I'm just complaining that they have literally 0 speed. All of the other Marine books have better options here.

4. Tau...yeah, thanks again. There are armies that can survive without psychic defense. Again, I'm pointing out that they are at a disadvantage to the other MEQ books because of this.


I was saying that these things in conjunction with the overcostedness of their units contribute to the downfall to the army. As the OP showed, everything they can do can be done cheaper (and most of the time better) through other Marines dexes. This leads players to a mono build and general uncompetitiveness. For reference I'm also speaking in the context of tournies ect. Of course Chaos can still do well in basement games.

I really don't understand the arguments to the contrary. At the moment Chaos Space Marines is a flavorless, overcosted book with significantly less options and many more weaknesses than other MEQ armies. They CAN win. But they are going to be at a disadvantage versus any new book. Period.

I think CSM is at a major lowpoint in their relative power. Yes, they still have a few viable builds. Yes, some players do manage to do well with them. But, for the most part, it's a very weak codex at the moment.

But, that's 40k. Army strengths and weaknesses shift over time. Sometimes, you're on top, and, sometimes, you're on the bottom.

I suggest you have patience, do the best you can with the tools you have, and hope that the rumors of a 2012 6th edition with Chaos being the primary army turn out to be true. If you can't wait that long, do a counts-as loyalist army, or start collecting a new army all together.

JGrand, you heard it hrere, Snickerdoodle told us, you're just not playing them right

You can get long range weapons in elites too. Reaper autocannon on termies and whatever you want on chosen.

frenrik wrote:You can get long range weapons in elites too. Reaper autocannon on termies and whatever you want on chosen.

Yeah, because minimum 115 points for one autocannon is *totally* worth it.

JGrand wrote:

ad 4. Ask Orks or Tau about that.

4. Tau...yeah, thanks again. There are armies that can survive without psychic defense. Again, I'm pointing out that they are at a disadvantage to the other MEQ books because of this.

Back in the day, it was unimportant when the worst a SM librarian could toss at you was 3 or 4 S4 AP3 shots. We are now talking the days of S10 AP1 templates, Rune priest snowballs from hell, Tyrannid stuff that reduces your WS, IG stuff that drops large templates at high strength or drops your Ld down to 2. Add to that, that the relative effectiveness of psykers means there is a greater likelihood that people are going to fit one into their list.

I understand the reluctance to give them an active defense but I would argue that chaos at least needs a passive defense. Something like "because of the Chaos sorcerer's close ties to the warp, it is dangerous for all others to use psychic powers. On any roll of a double, they are subject to a Perils of the Warp result." (Note that you can be successful in delivering your power and still get attacked by perils.) This means that opposing psykers are looking at a 1 in 6 chance of suffering perils instead of 1 in 18.

I have said for a long time. The best way to make Chaos competitive against the new books is to introduce one rule.

Chaos Lord - Any army taking a Chaos Lord can take units of Chosen in the Troops slot.


You do this one thing and Chaos is back baby.

Considering Ahriman is 250 points you'd think he would at least disable psychic hoods/runes of warding/shadow in the warp in a radius around him.

This would be an interesting rule for sorcerers in the new dex:

"Scions of the Warp: Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers have a more direct line to the source of all pyschic power in the universe, the Chaos gods themselves. While they are still vulnerable to the perils of attack by the daemonic warp entities of rival gods, their intimate connection to the warp makes their psychic abilities extremely difficult to interdict with psychic defenses.

Whenever a Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer successfully casts a psychic power, the use of the power cannot be prevented or reduced in effect by wargear or special abilities that would normally do so."

willydstyle wrote:

frenrik wrote:You can get long range weapons in elites too. Reaper autocannon on termies and whatever you want on chosen.

Yeah, because minimum 115 points for one autocannon is *totally* worth it.

How about chosen?

They're still 110-115 for 5 of them with one autocannon.

It's funny how a codex that includes units like Thousand Sons who have a 4+ invul save and AP3 bolters or Plague Marines who are T4(5) and have FNP and blight grenades is seen as a bad one. There's lots of really cool, specialized units in there - there's also Khorne Berzerkers, noise marines and obliterators too.

But whereas something like BA get special abilities to help them make use of their strengths (like loads of jump packs to get into CC faster or the ability to grant furious charge to everything), it seems like Chaos have been given these specializations but then just left to get on with it.

They'll be due a new codex sooner rather than later anyway and then they'll probably be considered OP, lol.

ColdSadHungry wrote:It's funny how a codex that includes units like Thousand Sons who have a 4+ invul save and AP3 bolters or Plague Marines who are T4(5) and have FNP and blight grenades is seen as a bad one. There's lots of really cool, specialized units in there - there's also Khorne Berzerkers, noise marines and obliterators too.

But whereas something like BA get special abilities to help them make use of their strengths (like loads of jump packs to get into CC faster or the ability to grant furious charge to everything), it seems like Chaos have been given these specializations but then just left to get on with it.

They'll be due a new codex sooner rather than later anyway and then they'll probably be considered OP, lol.

If those units were priced appropriately then they would be good. As it is, Plague Marines are one of the few good choices in the book, but everything else is so over-costed that the extra expense of plague marines ends up being not quite worth it in the end, I find.