Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

schadenfreude wrote:Chaos list building 101

Limit unit selection to the following

2 Lash sorcerers
Double Melta gun PM squads
Rhinos with havocs, combi plas, or combi melta
Oblits

Limit the unit selection to those 4 units and all of the sudden Chaos is still a tier 1 codex. We have 1 top tier competitive build that many lists rightfully fear. There are a few counters to the 1 competitive chaos list, but the 1 competitive chaos list is a very hard counter to many top tier lists. Don't get me wrong I can't wait for a new codex with some fething options and multiple competitive builds, but don't call chaos a bottom tier army because that statement just isn't fair to bottom tier armies such as Tau or Necrons.

If that build were really "top tier" or even "middle tier" we'd be seeing it on the top tables at large events such as NOVA. We don't.

Almarine brings up some good points. The dex may be gimped in some respects but it still offers some unique combinations that every other codex does not have.
How do you compare 2-wound obliterators that can do TL plasma gun shots one turn followed by multi-melta shots the next?
How do you compare plaguemarines with FNP and T5 with other scoring troop choices?

I will pose this question to you all: If the point costs in the current codex are decreased by 20%, will the army be competitive?

IMO, the answer is yes. It is not that we do not have the toys. It is that they cost too much for what they do when compared with newer codexes. The discrepancy becomes more pronounced at larger point-levels, because other armies can squeeze in more and more extra dakka paid for by the difference.

The only solution for that is a new codex, thankfully due in 2012 if rumors are right.

Regarding Necrons and codex creep, ironically Necrons are so old and out of date that few people see them in play, so you can really surprise the opposition and get some easy wins because of sheer ignorance among the opponents. So, codex creep can sometimes be beneficial to the underdog.

DAaddict wrote:Almarine brings up some good points. The dex may be gimped in some respects but it still offers some unique combinations that every other codex does not have.
How do you compare 2-wound obliterators that can do TL plasma gun shots one turn followed by multi-melta shots the next?
How do you compare plaguemarines with FNP and T5 with other scoring troop choices?

Obliterators only have a 5+ invul and are only T4, anything S8 kills it, anything AP2/1 will hurt it badly (meltas will kill it), anything S8 and AP2/1 destroys it (demolishers, meltas, lascannons, dark lances, blasters, brightlances, railguns, exorcist missiles, prism cannons, being under the hole of a monolith template...) and so does anything in close combat, since they're I1 thanks to only having PFs and a single attack each.

They're good, but they're still counterable.

As for Plague Marines, they are NOT T5, they are T4(5) and there is a world of difference between the two. Your answer to regular CSMs and Marines (massed plasma, massed meltas, battlecannons, plasma cannons etc. etc.) is also your answer to Plague Marines; a battlecannon doesn't care if you have FNP, since it's S8 and causes you instant death. Krak missiles will kill them off if you have to.

willydstyle wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Chaos list building 101

Limit unit selection to the following

2 Lash sorcerers
Double Melta gun PM squads
Rhinos with havocs, combi plas, or combi melta
Oblits

Limit the unit selection to those 4 units and all of the sudden Chaos is still a tier 1 codex. We have 1 top tier competitive build that many lists rightfully fear. There are a few counters to the 1 competitive chaos list, but the 1 competitive chaos list is a very hard counter to many top tier lists. Don't get me wrong I can't wait for a new codex with some fething options and multiple competitive builds, but don't call chaos a bottom tier army because that statement just isn't fair to bottom tier armies such as Tau or Necrons.

If that build were really "top tier" or even "middle tier" we'd be seeing it on the top tables at large events such as NOVA. We don't.

Even if it were, It's pretty easy to figure out and take down. str8 weapons will dominate pretty much everything in that list, maybe not the oblits with their 2+, but when they do fail that save they are gone. And people don't use lots of krak missiles or meltaguns, so it not that big of a dea...

oh. Right. Whoops

And Its pretty sad a codex has a choice of 3 units and a transport as its viable choices.

Avatar 720 wrote:They're good, but they're still counterable.

As for Plague Marines, they are NOT T5, they are T4(5) and there is a world of difference between the two. Your answer to regular CSMs and Marines (massed plasma, massed meltas, battlecannons, plasma cannons etc. etc.) is also your answer to Plague Marines; a battlecannon doesn't care if you have FNP, since it's S8 and causes you instant death. Krak missiles will kill them off if you have to.

This is why I hate playing guard, and switched to regular CSM since I used to play vs alot of guard- that 150p Vanilla Leman russ kills your precious 23p plague marines like a grot. Like a god damn grot. It's not that hard to counter plague-o's FNP at T4(5). If a unit can't counter it, sure plague-o's are tough as nuts. But when you can, generally they fall like a grot. And most anti-meq weapons act like anti-plague-o weapons.

Idk why you are having so much trouble. I have taken on just about everything "Scary" (BA/NIDs/DE/GKs/SW) with my Chaos and come out roughly on top (or Tie). And i wouldn't say i was a better general then anyone...

Running at 1.5k
2 Kson squads (sorc w/8 ksons) Sorcs have MB ... i think .... with Rhinos (DBs save lives)
1 Termy squad (PF/2LC) mark of Tzeench and LR Ded trans. (DB saves lives)
2 Defilers (1 all melee arms)
1 Termy Lord with demonic weapon and Mark of tzeench for death screamer!

4++ Saves for everyone ... AP3 Bolters ... Defilers ... Termies w/ LR ... DS Lord (using marks).

And one day i will make a Repair Roll with my Rhinos!

Tyrs13 wrote:Idk why you are having so much trouble. I have taken on just about everything "Scary" (BA/NIDs/DE/GKs/SW) with my Chaos and come out roughly on top (or Tie). And i wouldn't say i was a better general then anyone...

Running at 1.5k
2 Kson squads (sorc w/8 ksons) Sorcs have MB ... i think .... with Rhinos (DBs save lives)
1 Termy squad (PF/2LC) mark of Tzeench and LR Ded trans. (DB saves lives)
2 Defilers (1 all melee arms)
1 Termy Lord with demonic weapon and Mark of tzeench for death screamer!

4++ Saves for everyone ... AP3 Bolters ... Defilers ... Termies w/ LR ... DS Lord (using marks).

And one day i will make a Repair Roll with my Rhinos!

Looks good for roasting noobs, all that AP and tough invuls will give some people, particularly newer players or scrubs all sorts of fits. Problem is model count, anti tank, and number different targets you can fire at. I'm seeing 5 different units that can shoot at different targets, and 1 character built for CC. Also a single LR. A GOOD DE list run by a veteran player at that point should have a rather large amount of fire for you, you won't have much left other than a damaged LR after one turn of firing, and the 2nd will be the clean up phase. Hell GKs with their bolter backs, dreads, and psycannon spam should be able to take out everything other than the LR by the end of the first turn of shooting.

To be fair a veteran DE player can easily fry pretty much any Chaos player from what I've seen. Not to mention Grey Knights simply outclass us. An Interceptor Squad 40 more points than my stereotypical Chaos squad shot at my smoked Rhino, then mauled my Chaos boys in CC before they could do any damage.

Justus wrote:To be fair a veteran DE player can easily fry pretty much any Chaos player from what I've seen. Not to mention Grey Knights simply outclass us. An Interceptor Squad 40 more points than my stereotypical Chaos squad shot at my smoked Rhino, then mauled my Chaos boys in CC before they could do any damage.

I have to say I disagree with you about CSM vs Dark Eldar. If the Chaos Player is using a fully mechanized list, the DE player can have some real trouble. I have had a lot of success against DE with a 6 walker list.

Interceptors however, are another problem, and if the Gk player knows what he is doing, can be a HUGE problem for CSM.

GK and DE are tough match ups defiantly, but they are not impossible to beat.

I merely suggest you use something other then the standard Chaos SM. Sure they are more points and you will have issues with "Model Count". But you do get alot of bang for your buck.

(How many games at 1.5k have more then 1 LR? Or more then what 10 individual squads, with horde armies?)

Not that 2 BCs/2 TW LCs/10 DCCW attacks/2 Melta bombs/a PF/an AR cannon have ever failed me. But i cant get Multi Meltas on Scout speeders. Or a Teleporting Giant Terminator. Or Lance Weapons. We make do with what we have.

Chaos Lord + Deamon Weapon + Mark of Tzeench = Assault d6 Ap3 Bolter shots. Granted its not going to wipe out a squad of Terminators nor does it with the long range award.

And for the record i dont appreciate you calling people you never even met "roasting noobs". Some of them have been playing for as long as you have (way back in 2nd ed era).

Tyrs13 wrote:GK and DE are tough match ups defiantly, but they are not impossible to beat.

I merely suggest you use something other then the standard Chaos SM. Sure they are more points and you will have issues with "Model Count". But you do get alot of bang for your buck.

(How many games at 1.5k have more then 1 LR? Or more then what 10 individual squads, with horde armies?)

Not that 2 BCs/2 TW LCs/10 DCCW attacks/2 Melta bombs/a PF/an AR cannon have ever failed me. But i cant get Multi Meltas on Scout speeders. Or a Teleporting Giant Terminator. Or Lance Weapons. We make do with what we have.

Chaos Lord + Deamon Weapon + Mark of Tzeench = Assault d6 Ap3 Bolter shots. Granted its not going to wipe out a squad of Terminators nor does it with the long range award.

And for the record i dont appreciate you calling people you never even met "roasting noobs". Some of them have been playing for as long as you have (way back in 2nd ed era).

And do you think no other player has tried using non standard CSM? Please tell me you are not assuming that none of us posting have tried using units outside of the cookie cutting internet lists? 2 CSM units i endorse quite happily are havocs and raptors, which have a pretty mediocre rep. Maybe its the players around me, or the lists they bring, or the tables we make, but they've worked quite well for me. I can still see why alot of people rag on them though. And a lot of bang for your buck is situational, as against da boyz, its the same bang (as my normal bolters ignore their armor) for less buck.

more than 10 individual squads ain't too hard with cheap an' nasty units like riflemen, typhoons, even razorspam.

That chaos lord has a 1/6 chance of whopping himself in shooting, and CC. If your local meta is quite MEQ heavy, he's a goodun. And uhhhh... deepstriking him? solol? He's begging to be ID'd.

And for the record, two of my best mates have been playing since rogue trader era. One of them is good, the other is a total ing scrub. Whom I've mopped the floor with using silly lists. Not talking myself up thar, I'm just saying that just because you've been playing for a long time doesn't mean that you aren't a noob up for the roasting.

Precisely. Despite people's claims to the contrary, I've never once claimed that Chaos "can't win." That's a silly claim as there are more factors to winning a game to 40k than list strength only.

Just because I can win when I get lucky, or when my opponent plays poorly, or when they're using a sub-par list, does not mean that the codex is still good.

Avatar 720 wrote:

DAaddict wrote:Almarine brings up some good points. The dex may be gimped in some respects but it still offers some unique combinations that every other codex does not have.
How do you compare 2-wound obliterators that can do TL plasma gun shots one turn followed by multi-melta shots the next?
How do you compare plaguemarines with FNP and T5 with other scoring troop choices?

Obliterators only have a 5+ invul and are only T4, anything S8 kills it, anything AP2/1 will hurt it badly (meltas will kill it), anything S8 and AP2/1 destroys it (demolishers, meltas, lascannons, dark lances, blasters, brightlances, railguns, exorcist missiles, prism cannons, being under the hole of a monolith template...) and so does anything in close combat, since they're I1 thanks to only having PFs and a single attack each.

They're good, but they're still counterable.

As for Plague Marines, they are NOT T5, they are T4(5) and there is a world of difference between the two. Your answer to regular CSMs and Marines (massed plasma, massed meltas, battlecannons, plasma cannons etc. etc.) is also your answer to Plague Marines; a battlecannon doesn't care if you have FNP, since it's S8 and causes you instant death. Krak missiles will kill them off if you have to.

I was not saying that obliterators are untouchable. What I was saying is that oblits are tough to kill and flexible in what they can engage. No other codex can get a swiss-army knife for 75 points that can handle anything through firepower.

I am not ignorant of the fact that plague marines still die to S8 and AP2 stuff. The point is that an opponent does not have a lot of optimal options to engage them. Let a marine pay his premium for sternguard and if he doesn't put combi-weapons on them, it ain't going to matter. 5+ to kill, 3+ to get through army 4+ to get through FNP still yields an average of one dead for every 18 hitting S4 weapons. Oh and by the way these are scoring so they can sit on objectives.

Nothing in CSM is an idiot beat-down choice but there is a lot of good options led by the chaos solid choices for their troop slots.

Idk why you are having so much trouble. I have taken on just about everything "Scary" (BA/NIDs/DE/GKs/SW) with my Chaos and come out roughly on top (or Tie). And i wouldn't say i was a better general then anyone...

Running at 1.5k
2 Kson squads (sorc w/8 ksons) Sorcs have MB ... i think .... with Rhinos (DBs save lives)
1 Termy squad (PF/2LC) mark of Tzeench and LR Ded trans. (DB saves lives)
2 Defilers (1 all melee arms)
1 Termy Lord with demonic weapon and Mark of tzeench for death screamer!

4++ Saves for everyone ... AP3 Bolters ... Defilers ... Termies w/ LR ... DS Lord (using marks).

And one day i will make a Repair Roll with my Rhinos!

Take this list to a competitive tourney and get back to me....

extrenm(54) wrote:

Justus wrote:To be fair a veteran DE player can easily fry pretty much any Chaos player from what I've seen. Not to mention Grey Knights simply outclass us. An Interceptor Squad 40 more points than my stereotypical Chaos squad shot at my smoked Rhino, then mauled my Chaos boys in CC before they could do any damage.

I have to say I disagree with you about CSM vs Dark Eldar. If the Chaos Player is using a fully mechanized list, the DE player can have some real trouble. I have had a lot of success against DE with a 6 walker list.

Interceptors however, are another problem, and if the Gk player knows what he is doing, can be a HUGE problem for CSM.

DE has problems with Dreads, hands down. The DE infantry like Wyches, Incubi, BM squads are hardly able to take down a Dread. Man, I played a Furioso Dread w/ blood talons ripping through Incubi and BM like butter.
However, CSM have no fancy toys like blood talons, only a Dread that gets nuts and even then he's not very good.

wyches with haywires handle dreads easily.

willydstyle wrote:wyches with haywires handle dreads easily.

Well, I would not be so confident. If there is a Wych Raider approaching my Dread, I'd know what would be ranked high on my priority schedule. Wyches die easily when a Raider crashes.

DAaddict wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

DAaddict wrote:Almarine brings up some good points. The dex may be gimped in some respects but it still offers some unique combinations that every other codex does not have.
How do you compare 2-wound obliterators that can do TL plasma gun shots one turn followed by multi-melta shots the next?
How do you compare plaguemarines with FNP and T5 with other scoring troop choices?

Obliterators only have a 5+ invul and are only T4, anything S8 kills it, anything AP2/1 will hurt it badly (meltas will kill it), anything S8 and AP2/1 destroys it (demolishers, meltas, lascannons, dark lances, blasters, brightlances, railguns, exorcist missiles, prism cannons, being under the hole of a monolith template...) and so does anything in close combat, since they're I1 thanks to only having PFs and a single attack each.

They're good, but they're still counterable.

As for Plague Marines, they are NOT T5, they are T4(5) and there is a world of difference between the two. Your answer to regular CSMs and Marines (massed plasma, massed meltas, battlecannons, plasma cannons etc. etc.) is also your answer to Plague Marines; a battlecannon doesn't care if you have FNP, since it's S8 and causes you instant death. Krak missiles will kill them off if you have to.

I was not saying that obliterators are untouchable. What I was saying is that oblits are tough to kill and flexible in what they can engage. No other codex can get a swiss-army knife for 75 points that can handle anything through firepower.

I am not ignorant of the fact that plague marines still die to S8 and AP2 stuff. The point is that an opponent does not have a lot of optimal options to engage them. Let a marine pay his premium for sternguard and if he doesn't put combi-weapons on them, it ain't going to matter. 5+ to kill, 3+ to get through army 4+ to get through FNP still yields an average of one dead for every 18 hitting S4 weapons. Oh and by the way these are scoring so they can sit on objectives.

Nothing in CSM is an idiot beat-down choice but there is a lot of good options led by the chaos solid choices for their troop slots.

GKs get Space Monkeys. There's also the fact that you're paying 75pts for a single model (that's reaching some army's HQ points levels) that's only BS4. They're also not tough to kill; they're essentially a Terminator with 2 wounds, which at the end of the day, isn't spectacular. I'm not saying they're useless, only that they're still flawed; if you miss with your lascannon, then you're probably going to die next turn; Termicide is only slightly more expensive and vastly more effective.

You also wanted to compare Plague Marines to other troops, fine, they beat other MEQ troops. Factor in the rest of the army and you just need to apply what you would do to remove regular MEQ troops to removing Plague Marines; anything you'd use to kill regular marines en masse is optimal. They're sturdier against S7 and AP3+ weapons, but shooting them with plasma, meltas, battlecannons and the likes does the same damage as if you'd shot them at the 8pts cheaper CSMs. They're tough, but they're not the end of the world by far.

willydstyle wrote:Precisely. Despite people's claims to the contrary, I've never once claimed that Chaos "can't win." That's a silly claim as there are more factors to winning a game to 40k than list strength only.

Just because I can win when I get lucky, or when my opponent plays poorly, or when they're using a sub-par list, does not mean that the codex is still good.

I think the reason people assumed that you meant that Chaos can't win, is that you said they were not viable. They are viable, just not competitive.

wuestenfux wrote:

extrenm(54) wrote:

Justus wrote:To be fair a veteran DE player can easily fry pretty much any Chaos player from what I've seen. Not to mention Grey Knights simply outclass us. An Interceptor Squad 40 more points than my stereotypical Chaos squad shot at my smoked Rhino, then mauled my Chaos boys in CC before they could do any damage.

I have to say I disagree with you about CSM vs Dark Eldar. If the Chaos Player is using a fully mechanized list, the DE player can have some real trouble. I have had a lot of success against DE with a 6 walker list.

Interceptors however, are another problem, and if the Gk player knows what he is doing, can be a HUGE problem for CSM.

DE has problems with Dreads, hands down. The DE infantry like Wyches, Incubi, BM squads are hardly able to take down a Dread. Man, I played a Furioso Dread w/ blood talons ripping through Incubi and BM like butter.
However, CSM have no fancy toys like blood talons, only a Dread that gets nuts and even then he's not very good.

I've had horrid luck with Chaos Dreads, they always have managed to kill me. I had a game where they kill a Defiler, a Vindicator, and one of them killed the other. Bad luck, very bad. That's led me to field them less often.

On a note to Plague Marines, if they showed their face at all during the course of my local meta they'd be dead quick. Too much AP 1-2 and power weapons to make them not a pointsink.

willydstyle wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:It's funny how a codex that includes units like Thousand Sons who have a 4+ invul save and AP3 bolters or Plague Marines who are T4(5) and have FNP and blight grenades is seen as a bad one. There's lots of really cool, specialized units in there - there's also Khorne Berzerkers, noise marines and obliterators too.

But whereas something like BA get special abilities to help them make use of their strengths (like loads of jump packs to get into CC faster or the ability to grant furious charge to everything), it seems like Chaos have been given these specializations but then just left to get on with it.

They'll be due a new codex sooner rather than later anyway and then they'll probably be considered OP, lol.

If those units were priced appropriately then they would be good. As it is, Plague Marines are one of the few good choices in the book, but everything else is so over-costed that the extra expense of plague marines ends up being not quite worth it in the end, I find.

Alright, I am not a doom and gloom that CSM sucks and is dead but it is long in the tooth and definitely overcosted. I would like to see the marks go back to being available based on taking a chaos lord of the given mark and that qualifying all troops for the full upgrade. (i.e. MoN CSM bikers get FNP, T+1 and plague grenades)

Plague Marines: Probably the closest thing to a unit that is priced correctly. Sure it has weaknesses but not bad investment for 23 points.
Berzerkers: Furious charge, WS5 and +1 A are all good but I think it is more in line with 18 pts a piece as they are highly vulnerable to ranged fire.
Noise Marines: 20 pts is the right cost WITH the sonic blaster. Currently I use them as the majority of my army but without the weapons. Alright old codex cost of autocannon for blastmaster is too little but 40 is way over priced. Perhaps a solid cost of 20 or 25 for the blastmaster.
1000 Sons: Sv 4++ solid with a bolter and SBP is not bad either as a fire support with AP3 bolter rounds. Weakest of any CSM because it totally sucks in HTH. 18 pts each or 21 pts each with 3++ sv.
The aspiring sorcerer should be either 30 pts PLUS spells or 60 pts with zero cost choice of spells. They are just too overpriced. Also perhaps an ability that allows the aspiring sorcerer to target something else than the squad otherwise you have a high cost anti-tank sorcerer who either wastes his shot or the squads shot.

Remove the icon as a designate of the MoK or whatever. Just make every marine qualify for the mark at a cost and not be dependent on one idiot with a flag surviving. Perhaps keep the banners as benifits for deep striking, +1 to summoning demons, vessels for greater demons to show up, maybe even a +1 to attacks or reroll misses option for all figs in the unit either once per game or forever.

Bring back some flavor to Lesser demons by allowing them to take marks and gain some benefits.

The way I've always seen it is CSM are to SM as SM are to SW.

However, playing a Slaaneshi army, I've taken apart a Tau army and Salamanders army in 1500 point games. I'd be more inclined to say that this was more the product of good fortune than anything else (Vulkan probably can't be relied upon to turn into Spawn every time).

I think the next codex should be based on the 3rd ed, since it's going to be Legions rather than renegades. Marks on normal units need to return, Sorcerers need more upgrades, and Daemon Princes should get at least a 4++ save.

And ETERNAL WARRIOR FOR CHAOS LORDS!

im sorry this entire thread is bull...

you are trying to argue that CSM are underpowered when you compare their standard units to specialties of other codexes?


im sorry, but you sir are a fool.

Yes, you are correct, Blood Angels ASM are slightly cheaper (210 for the meltaguns not 200), but WAIT they are SUPPOSED to be good at assault THATS THEIR THEME.

whine less

Are prices higher than other books? Sure. But they do have good options too. Myself, I like big squads of Slaanesh terminators who go at I5 all the time, and can have COMBI-WEAPONS! At 5pts each. Um...yes please? Imps don't get those. You can also mix and match CC and shooting weapons in those squads. Really, what you are paying a higher price for are more options. You have the marks to enhance warriors, and you also have champions that you buy-but these (IMO) should only be bought if you have a greater daemon and he needs a sucker/host to pop out of. Then, you're paying for the option to pop out a GD. Do I wish some things were cheaper? Yes. Havoc weapons need to be cheaper, and so do the HQs (non-daemon ones) because they really aren't anywhere near as good as SM ones. But largely I enjoy the book. If playing against other 4E books or older, chaos holds its own VERY well. I had a squad of ten termies and a Khorne Lord take out half of my opponents DA army in one turn. They dropped down, melta'd a dreadnaught in the back, got charged by a bike squad, Belial with command squad and a second termie squad as well and sent them running for the hills. The Khorne Lord ate Belial and the rest of the army quickly folded to lots of I5 LCs. Yes, they do work and there are many builds. They can also pour melta onto the battlefield better than anyone (you can take 5 melta in each chosen squad, 4 in each havoc squad). They do a better job of this. I have no qualms with the book, other than lackluster options in comparison to the last book.

Jihallah wrote:

willydstyle wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Chaos list building 101

Limit unit selection to the following

2 Lash sorcerers
Double Melta gun PM squads
Rhinos with havocs, combi plas, or combi melta
Oblits

Limit the unit selection to those 4 units and all of the sudden Chaos is still a tier 1 codex. We have 1 top tier competitive build that many lists rightfully fear. There are a few counters to the 1 competitive chaos list, but the 1 competitive chaos list is a very hard counter to many top tier lists. Don't get me wrong I can't wait for a new codex with some fething options and multiple competitive builds, but don't call chaos a bottom tier army because that statement just isn't fair to bottom tier armies such as Tau or Necrons.

If that build were really "top tier" or even "middle tier" we'd be seeing it on the top tables at large events such as NOVA. We don't.

Even if it were, It's pretty easy to figure out and take down. str8 weapons will dominate pretty much everything in that list, maybe not the oblits with their 2+, but when they do fail that save they are gone. And people don't use lots of krak missiles or meltaguns, so it not that big of a dea...

oh. Right. Whoops

And Its pretty sad a codex has a choice of 3 units and a transport as its viable choices.

It's really damn sad when a codex has a choice of 3 units and a transport as its viable choices. The only other viable unit is the defiler which works best when combined with oblits, and is very easy to misuse. Oblits in a building and a defiler behind the building continues to work well in the meta. AV12 with a 4+cover and deamonic possession is pretty solid, but there is usually only 1 good terrain piece to hide behind which limits the selection to 1 defiler.

Once again a small number of viable builds is far superior to no viable builds. Things should be better in the future, especially if we get both a chaos legions and chaos renegades codex.

Crusher050 wrote:im sorry this entire thread is bull...

...

im sorry, but you sir are a fool.

...

whine less

Troll moar?

labmouse42 wrote:

CSM is an older codex and is suffering from codex creep. As a codex gets older, the number of viable builds drops, until a codex is left with very few -- such as Eldar, Tau, or Necrons. The fact is a BA or SW player has multiple competitive builds they can base their army off of, and they all work. An Eldar player has 1 competitive build and 1 semi-competitive build. (I use Eldar as an example as I play the army) The CSM codex appears to be in a similar place.

This.

jmurph wrote:

Crusher050 wrote:im sorry this entire thread is bull...

...

im sorry, but you sir are a fool.

...

whine less

Troll moar?

actually it was not a troll post as i offered my reasoning behind each statement. You helpfully deleted them when quoting me, but I suppose that is acceptable. read moar.

now i wont say Chaos is the "best" but i believe if played correctly all armies can offer a challenge. some are easier to play correctly than others.

Comments like "you are a fool" and "whine less" are respectively personal attacks and flamebait. Both are against the rules here. Please stick to criticizing the arguments of other posters rather than the posters themselves. Thanks!

About a week ago I had a 2000 point game against chaos. My opponent had 9 oblits, a LR with terminators, plague marines in rhinos and a DP. One of the hardest lists this book can spew forth. After both of us had played 3 turns, he conceded. Admittedly, his rolls were less then average, but my dice weren't hot either. I think he was out 3 oblits, DP, LR, and all terminators by that point. My casualties were a rhino and 3-4 Thousand Sons. Perhaps chaos beating chaos isn't the example we were looking for, I dunno if it's a mark for or against the codex. I guess if one knows whats what, it's not hard to pull the teeth out of any list this book can bring.