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whitedragon wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
My biggest rant on chaos is landraiders not having a machine spirit. It makes raiders into immobile pillboxes or fast assault vehicles. There is no value to moving 6" as you pay for both those TL las cannons and TL heavybolter and if you move 6" you only get to fire 1 weapon system. I will gladly give up my discount of 30 or so points for some form of machine spirit.

Actually....

1) Remove Dreadnought "Crazed" rule.
2) Make Icons count as full fledged Marks, (ie, not losing it when you lose the Icon)
3) Remove Demon Weapons rebelling on a 1.
4) Add "Infernal Spirit" back to Land Raiders at +30 points.

These changes would make the Chaos book a whole new ball game all by themselves.

1 Agreed
2 Agreed
4 Agreed
3 I kind of like the questionable nature of demon weapons the problem is a roll of a 1 causing you to lose all of your base attacks. I would like it if on a roll of a 1 it did 1 wound to you but otherwise it would still allow you to make other attacks. e.g. So a khorne lord with a demon blade rolls a 1 and a 6 he gets his base 4 attacks +1 for charging and he gets the bonus 6 attacks from his one roll but he also suffers 1 attack due to his roll of a 1.

schadenfreude wrote:Chaos list building 101

Limit unit selection to the following

2 Lash sorcerers
Double Melta gun PM squads
Rhinos with havocs, combi plas, or combi melta
Oblits

Limit the unit selection to those 4 units and all of the sudden Chaos is still a tier 1 codex. We have 1 top tier competitive build that many lists rightfully fear. There are a few counters to the 1 competitive chaos list, but the 1 competitive chaos list is a very hard counter to many top tier lists. Don't get me wrong I can't wait for a new codex with some fething options and multiple competitive builds, but don't call chaos a bottom tier army because that statement just isn't fair to bottom tier armies such as Tau or Necrons.

You are still out-MSU'd. You lack ranged support beyond the Obliterators (or other options; Autolas preds are actually better for you in some cases since they saturate better with the fact you're doing ye olden Rhino Rush), who for cost are...rather inefficient. Compare 2 Obliterators to a Rifleman Dreadnought, 10 Lootas, 2 Hydra Flax Tanks...even a pair of Eldar War Walkers with Missile Launchers (or the generally more-reliable dual Scatter Laser) configuration all outdo you in the ability to perform ranged suppression.

In short, you win based on your opponent's ability or inability to moveblock, stunlock, or otherwise prevent your vehicles from delivering melta-cargo, or to to deal with your Plagues in assault. *This* is not the benchmark of a good army; good armies rely on having the tools and ability to adapt tactics for whatever foes they may conceivably face; bad lists rely on their opposition not being able to adapt in turn, and Chaos in particular is very plug-and-play due to lacking other reliable options.

whitedragon wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
My biggest rant on chaos is landraiders not having a machine spirit. It makes raiders into immobile pillboxes or fast assault vehicles. There is no value to moving 6" as you pay for both those TL las cannons and TL heavybolter and if you move 6" you only get to fire 1 weapon system. I will gladly give up my discount of 30 or so points for some form of machine spirit.

Actually....

1) Remove Dreadnought "Crazed" rule.
2) Make Icons count as full fledged Marks, (ie, not losing it when you lose the Icon)
3) Remove Demon Weapons rebelling on a 1.
4) Add "Infernal Spirit" back to Land Raiders at +30 points.

These changes would make the Chaos book a whole new ball game all by themselves.

1) Keep the dreadnough's crazed rule. Revert back to a previous edition where the dreadnought doubled it's number of attacks when it goes CC crazed.
2) Icons can stay icons, they just need to do more. Nurgle=+1T, FNP, slow and purposeful, slaneesh +1I, fleet, fearless....
3) Deamon weapons should rebel on a 6 with attacks still going off.
3) And bring back mark specific vehicle upgrades such as nugle infestation, khorne destroyer, warpfire, and warp amp.

DAaddict wrote:

3 I kind of like the questionable nature of demon weapons the problem is a roll of a 1 causing you to lose all of your base attacks. I would like it if on a roll of a 1 it did 1 wound to you but otherwise it would still allow you to make other attacks. e.g. So a khorne lord with a demon blade rolls a 1 and a 6 he gets his base 4 attacks +1 for charging and he gets the bonus 6 attacks from his one roll but he also suffers 1 attack due to his roll of a 1.

schadenfreude wrote:
1) Keep the dreadnough's crazed rule. Revert back to a previous edition where the dreadnought doubled it's number of attacks when it goes CC crazed.
2) Icons can stay icons, they just need to do more. Nurgle=+1T, FNP, slow and purposeful, slaneesh +1I, fleet, fearless....
3) Deamon weapons should rebel on a 6 with attacks still going off.
3) And bring back mark specific vehicle upgrades such as nugle infestation, khorne destroyer, warpfire, and warp amp.

DAaddict, I agree with you. The demon weapons are junk because really...rolling a 1 on your demon weapon is currently a death sentence for your character, when I believe the intent was just to make it dangerous for the poor lord using it. If you stand still and drool for a turn in CC, you'll most likely be murdered that turn in CC or shot to death in the enemy's following turn. So basically yes, as long as he gets to always make his attacks, adding a bonus attack or whatever from the weapon, then yea he can suck a wound.

Schadenfreude, the 3.5 Dreadnought crazed rule was the best because it precluded the dreadnought from blasting your own forces most of the time, and that's the real problem with the dreadnought. Anything in your army that you can't really count on is a potentially wasted unit. Even orks have removed most of the randomness from their codex these days, so Chaos really should to. And with all the nifty toys that Marine dreads get these days, Chaos doesn't need any more negatives. (Also note that making this change would make Monster Mash about 300% more viable as well.)

Your other suggestions I agree with, except to say that the 3.5 codex essentially did all the things you are talking about. It's just frustrating that nowadays, a bad torrent roll can reduce your troops to regular CSM's, which is silly.

My point was just that, if you made those four simple changes, which don't require any new rules or points additions/reductions, and could be done with a simple FAQ, the Chaos army suddenly gets alot more teeth.

zechariahsword wrote:My point is: regardless of how well or badly I play my units, I have always been outgunned with the "solid" lists of CSM. And usually, whoever gets to shoot/attack more get's a higher chance of good rolls.

As far as my "competitive spirit" is concerned... If I was playing this game to be competitive and not for fun... I'd play SW/BA/GK/IG/DE. But, I enjoy playing the end all be all bad guys, regardless of how "terribad" they are.

I think I should make it clear that even though I've lost the majority of my games, I still enjoy playing them.

So you're a scrub. No worries mate enjoy being a roadbump. Your posting has inspired me to go on a CSM rampage this weekend (And I was going to test someones excellent Vulkan list, I'll put that on hold). I'm going to enjoy stomping some guard, showing the falseness of the Imperium's emperor (vanilla SM) and getting into a headbutting contest with some wolves

schadenfreude wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
My biggest rant on chaos is landraiders not having a machine spirit. It makes raiders into immobile pillboxes or fast assault vehicles. There is no value to moving 6" as you pay for both those TL las cannons and TL heavybolter and if you move 6" you only get to fire 1 weapon system. I will gladly give up my discount of 30 or so points for some form of machine spirit.

Actually....

1) Remove Dreadnought "Crazed" rule.
2) Make Icons count as full fledged Marks, (ie, not losing it when you lose the Icon)
3) Remove Demon Weapons rebelling on a 1.
4) Add "Infernal Spirit" back to Land Raiders at +30 points.

These changes would make the Chaos book a whole new ball game all by themselves.

1) Keep the dreadnough's crazed rule. Revert back to a previous edition where the dreadnought doubled it's number of attacks when it goes CC crazed.
2) Icons can stay icons, they just need to do more. Nurgle=+1T, FNP, slow and purposeful, slaneesh +1I, fleet, fearless....
3) Deamon weapons should rebel on a 6 with attacks still going off.
3) And bring back mark specific vehicle upgrades such as nugle infestation, khorne destroyer, warpfire, and warp amp.

2) Icons should be available to units that have bought the appropriate mark. eg, MoS, 5pts for each member of the unit. Icon of Slaanesh, 15 pts. Gives Fleet and Fearless.
3) Daemon weapons should rebel on a 1 or 6, but the user avoids the wound with a successful Leadership test, and fights counting as being armed with a power weapon with the added attacks.

zechariahsword wrote:
Every other army I've played is always the same game: I'm outgunned (including CC), or out manned. It's like a slap in the face when my opponent can field a unit of 6 Wraiths that do 1 trillion CC attacks at I6 and my Zerkers in the same game can only do 30+/- one I lower... which of course means I have no Zerkers left even if I charge... Don't tell me I just needed to shoot them either! I was pumping every Plasma gun/Lascannon/Multimelta/Meltagun my 8 Oblits and 2 units of Plague marines could muster at them and the Necron lord traveling with them... they just would not die. I could've been rolling low, and he could've been rolling high, which was the case, but regardless it's still a heavy insult to have him carving through my so-called "tough" units.

Wait, so you're now complaining that CSM are bad because you lost to NECRONS?

Obliterators do have power fists and Terminator armour. You could've used those.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

zechariahsword wrote:
Every other army I've played is always the same game: I'm outgunned (including CC), or out manned. It's like a slap in the face when my opponent can field a unit of 6 Wraiths that do 1 trillion CC attacks at I6 and my Zerkers in the same game can only do 30+/- one I lower... which of course means I have no Zerkers left even if I charge... Don't tell me I just needed to shoot them either! I was pumping every Plasma gun/Lascannon/Multimelta/Meltagun my 8 Oblits and 2 units of Plague marines could muster at them and the Necron lord traveling with them... they just would not die. I could've been rolling low, and he could've been rolling high, which was the case, but regardless it's still a heavy insult to have him carving through my so-called "tough" units.

Wait, so you're now complaining that CSM are bad because you lost to NECRONS?

There is something terrible wrong with what you are describing. I have been playing Necrons for four years now, and I can assure you, a berzerker charge is a very bad thing for a Necron army. Also, 6 Wraith do not even come close to wiping out a unit of Berzerkers before they swing. I would say that your experience is far from typical and in no way an insult to CSM, but rather an example of bad luck.

schadenfreude wrote:I stand by my previous statement that CSM was overpowered when it was first released, and that 4th ed CSM was a giant leap forward in the concept of the codex creep. In September 2007 CSM was the most powerful codex released up to that point in time. What were the top tier armies in September 2007, and where was chaos in the pecking order? The only other 4th ed books out at the time were Eldar, DE, Tau, and BT. Everybody else was 3rd ed, and armies were not heavily mechanized yet.

I'm not sure where you're getting your data. 4th edition was released in 2004. Here's the codex schedule from 4th ed.:

2008 Chaos Daemons
2008 Orks
Sep. 2007 Chaos Space Marines
June 2007 Blood Angels
March 2007 Dark Angels
2006 Tau
2006 Eldar
2005 Black Templar
2005 Tyranids
2005 Catachans
2004 Space Marines

The only 4th edition codices to be released after Chaos were Orks and Daemons. And neither really exemplified "codex creep." The 4th ed. codex creep started with the 4th edition Space Marine codex, mainly due to the strength of the Chaos codex at the time. This was mainly because the Imperial forces got curbstomped by Chaos during the EoT campaign.

extrenm(54) wrote:
There is something terrible wrong with what you are describing. I have been playing Necrons for four years now, and I can assure you, a berzerker charge is a very bad thing for a Necron army. Also, 6 Wraith do not even come close to wiping out a unit of Berzerkers before they swing. I would say that your experience is far from typical and in no way an insult to CSM, but rather an example of bad luck.

It was probably bad luck, yes, but I was put in the horrid position of being forced to charge into a Wraith-wing with 8 Zerkers or let him charge me with it instead. I was cut down to 2 Zerkers before I could even attack back... killing nothing.

Sadly the game was "capture and control" and he had two Monoliths... two monoliths that could just sit on each objective without fear of losing them =/

I tried my best to kill his Necron Destroyer Lord with a res orb, but somehow he survived 5 Lascannon shots, 3 TL Plasma, and 2 Melta shots for 3 turns before he destroyed all of my troops.

Learned my lesson though... don't bring Khorne Zerkers to a fight when your opponent can't bleed.

If CSM is going to be competitive, the one thing it needs is an update/change. More options would be nice; I feel Icons giving temporary forms of marks and playing as Deepstrike markers at the same time rather than having the two things exclusive outside of cult troops sort of choked a lot of options. Not to mention making ML Havoc groups costing potentially far more than a unit of Oblits. There are more problems than this but most have already been said.

Then again, a friend of a friend of mine told me that a friend of his friend use to work for GW, and that the "Chaos Legions" and "Chaos Renegades" are in fact not two different books... he says they are 5 different books: "Renegades" being something akin to Grey Knights with a crossover of Generic CSM and Traitorous Guard, and "Legions" being 4 different codices each representing a Chaos God. If true it would seem a bit overblown, but then again, Imperial SM get Vanilla, BT, DA, BA, SW, and GK. Also, if true, it would COMPLETELY change how they are played altogether. Rumors, however, so take this with a grain of salt; I don't fully believe it either.