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I think the MEQ codices suffer from creep worse than others. If a new book comes out it’s unlikely to do exactly what guard or elder or orks do. So even if it has shiny new stuff there still isn’t another army out there that can now do exactly what it can plus shiny new stuff, and that takes a book a long way towards being competitive.
But when a new marine book comes out it is going to have very similar capabilities plus lots of shiny new toys. Much more of the time the old book is going to find the new books can do exactly what it can plus a bunch of other vital stuff. CSM is suffering from this in spades, especially against wolves. Wolves can do virtually everything good in the CSM book plus a bunch of other awesome stuff too. When a huge portion of the tournament field can assault as well or better than you, is as tough and resilient or more than you, but also shoots better than you, moves better than you, and has a host of insane psychic powers you can’t deal with in any way, I would say that is pretty dang uncompetitive.
So long of there are MEQ books I think the oldest ones will be close to the bottom of the pack. The only time it hasn’t worked like that since I’ve been in the game was when DAs came out which was an anomaly, and the 4th ed CSM book which stayed on top a long time, but that was much less of a MEQ book than the current one.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/09/09 20:43:20
Lifetime Record of Awesomeness
1000000W/ 0L/ 1D (against myself)
I, like many others, disagree with some of the OP. Not all, but some.
I don't think Chaos are near the weakest army, I feel they're still fairly middle tier and one of the better non-5th edition Codices. As is inevitable with a Codex of its age and design, many things are overpriced, I'm not going to deny that in any form. There are however still some pretty good units in the army, which itself can be surprisingly tough.
I while ago, I posted my assessment on the Chaos Space Marine Codex, whilst that's changed to an extent, I still think some of it holds true IMHO.
Spoiler:
- Daemon Prince - Very Good. This really doesn't need explaining. Fairly vulnerable, but can hide behind rhinos, remain cheap, provide armour saturation and tackle most targets.
- Chaos Lord - Average. Over-priced and not too hard hitting, but is still a very capable IC.
- Chaos Sorcerer - Average. As above, but Warptime, Wind of Chaos and Lash of Submission are all good powers.
- Chaos Terminators - Average-good. Cheaper than normal terminators, access to 5pts combi-weapons and lots of CC goodies. Better than their reputation, but Reaper Autocannon is too expensive.
- Possessed - Poor. Look past their random factor (which still provides good bonuses) and they are a very deadly unit. Expensive however and too random.
- Chosen - Above Average. Ability to wield MANY assault weapons is very effective. Infiltration is neat too. Bit too expensive again however.
- Dreadnought - Poor. Flawed by random/self-harm factor, but with 2x CCW is still a deadly unit. Too few viable options, but Crazed/Frenzy has always been there.
- Chaos Space Marines - Good. Cheaper than their Space Marine counter-parts and have a wide variety of good available to them. Special weapons are (NOW) comparatively over-priced but they make good choices alongside the more expensive cult-troops. Solid back-bone.
- Khorne Bezerkers - Good. Expensive but cheap for what they can do. Very deadly in assault and scoring. Only significant problem is getting them to assault.
- Noise Marines - Average. Very expensive and sonic weapon can underwhelm. Do well in small quantities and as auxiliaries rather than back-bone though.
- Plague Marines - Very Good. One of the best troop choices in the game. Deadly and GREAT for holding an objective.
- Thousand Sons - Poor. Very expensive and under-whelming performance. Only redeeming factor is AP3. Too expensive to be readily viable.
- Spawn - Very Poor. Best used as a distraction/speed-bump. Otherwise (or including) they are a helluva waste of 40pts.
- Bikers - Very Poor. Over-costed and under-perform. Can be good delivery for lesser-daemons and special weapons but are otherwise weak.
- Raptors - Average. More expensive than their recent Codex-cousins and have limited roles as either fast melta or a large squad with MoK and therefore a LOT of attacks. YMMV however.
- Havocs - Poor. Low manoeuvrability and expensive weapons. Marks don't really help either. Can 4x assault weapons or autocannons but are otherwise too weak.
- Predator - Good. Often over-looked, but still pretty cheap and can provide a considerable amount of fire power and armour saturation.
- Vindicator - Good. Some hate it, some love it. Only slightly more expensive than codex-counterpart, but none-the-less very deadly, suits the Chaos play-style and DP can work well. Also good for armour saturation.
- Obliterators - Very Good. One of the best heavy choices in the entire game. Versatile, tough, cheap and can be numerous. It's all good.
- Land Raider - Above Average. Lacks PoTMS but is still very tough, very deadly and can work well to deliver assault units. Often under-rated IMHO.
- Defiler - Average. Battle Cannon is a great weapon and the defiler is nice and versatile, being capable in CC and range. Problems are however that it's expensive, is a BIG target and is competing against other, better, choices...
- Greater Daemon - Good. A still good unit, very power and cheap, can appear right in front of enemy too. However, lacks wings and DP is better.
- Lesser Daemons - Average. Reliable deep-strike and pretty good in assault, scoring too. However, lack range and are expensive.
I admit, this is a more optimistic comparison and it's talking about the Codex itself, rather than compared to other Codices/meta. Again, much of the Chaos Codex is overpriced, but much of it can still pack a nasty punch too.
IMHO, Chaos really, really needs to be meched up. Thankfully their rhinos are 35pts. However, meched up they can get into their optimum ranged (close quarters/>24" quickly, contest objectives and have lots of armour saturation.
It's often agreed that Grey Hunters are too cheap and I second this; they're 190pts for 10-men with 2 melta's in a rhino.
Then again, for Chaos it's 205pts for this; still a fairly good deal, even with the near-mandatory IoCG.
It's also worth pointing out that Tactical Marines are 220pts for 10-men, meltagun, multimelta and rhino. I don't deny, Tactical Squads aren't a particularly good unit IMHO, but I still feel CSM's aren't a bad unit, despite their cost compared to other more recent armies.
Chaos can get 2 Princes, 4 Meched-up, tough, Troop Choices and 3 Heavy Support Units at 1500pts and personally, I would still find that a powerful army.
Again, I don't deny their weaknesses; they are usually overpriced compared to most newer Codices and they often lack special abilities compared to new Codices, but I still feel that can pack a notable punch, particularly for a Codex of their age. I wouldn't put them in the bottom tier yet personally.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
I agree Willydstyle. Even with the few competitive builds out there, they are very stagnant (hey, how about the idea I don't WANT to use lash/rely on a pair of psykers to win my game!). Stagnate army = predictable, and a predictable army is an easily beaten army. If i weren't hungover as and about to go to work (always an excellent combination ) I'd post more (I'll be back ) but to those who's response is "your doin' it wrong", please read this informative thread then go eat a bowl of up.
While I do agree that CSM arent near the top of the food chain, I find such a comparision as the one in the OP completly useless. You are comparing CSM units with the best units from several codecii. If CSM were able to put out as good units on every position then they wouldnt be anything but totally overpowered.
I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time.
15k 10k
wuestenfux wrote:
Good CSM forces are 1) Rhino based with CSM, Cult Marines, Chosen, Havocs mounted in Rhinos and led by two lash Sorcerers, 2) Monster mash with 2 DPs, GD, 3 Dreads, 3 Defilers, and Daemons, and 3) PM based list with Obliterators, winged DPs with MoN.
You can complain all you want, but what Wuesty has said above is totally correct. Each of the builds above is viable in the current "meta" or whatever you'd like to call it.
Veriamp wrote:I have emerged from my lurking to say one thing. When Mat taught the Necrons to feel, he taught me to love.
Pretty much all of what the OP said is true. I agree with all of it.
However, I offer the following:
This is simply a period of penance. Chaos Space Marines in their last book were... slightly insane in power level.
OP, if you've been playing Chaos Space Marines for as long as you claim, then you know full well that you had plenty of time to rock out with that horribly powerful Codex they had prior to this one.
Balance in all things. You all will get a new, better book in time. You just have to finish taking your lumps for your last book.
wuestenfux wrote:
Good CSM forces are 1) Rhino based with CSM, Cult Marines, Chosen, Havocs mounted in Rhinos and led by two lash Sorcerers, 2) Monster mash with 2 DPs, GD, 3 Dreads, 3 Defilers, and Daemons, and 3) PM based list with Obliterators, winged DPs with MoN.
You can complain all you want, but what Wuesty has said above is totally correct. Each of the builds above is viable in the current "meta" or whatever you'd like to call it.
Which explains why CSM did so awesome at NOVA... oh wait, they were at the bottom.
To OP I used to play necron and nids I feel your pain. If you don't like how uncompetitive chaos is then trade/sell them for grey knights or shelve them til the new chaos legion comes out next year.
Also, as people have stated their dex is out of date and gw is on a trend of trying to make each new dex more op than the last so chaos should come back to glory soon. Though I know for a fact that a necron army made it to semi finals for ard boyz this year, if they can win chaos can too you just have to try and play around your dex's weakness.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/10 01:19:12
Iur_tae_mont wrote:My Response to the OP: I play Tau. I have no sympathy for you.
WOW! Thank you for this HIGHLY INFORMATIVE POST, that really really adds to this discussion we are having about how competitive CSM's can be! What a highly excellent post, that contributed much to the discussion! Where would we be without that information? I'm sure this discussion would flop if it weren't for the fact that we now know you play Tau! Thank you, really, thank you so much!
How about you off to a thread about orks and tell them you play Tau there! I'm sure that will help your postcount!
MrTau wrote:I agree CSM should stop wining scince they are low avarege at worst
"oohhh I think my 'dex is worse than yours, so you can't whine! try playing MY army!!" Do you post such waffle in necron threads? Do you want some kind of badge of honor, saying "I play the anime army in 40k, and its but I still play it!"? I'll make one for ya, If you don't post up stupid
Just Dave wrote:Chaos can get 2 Princes, 4 Meched-up, tough, Troop Choices and 3 Heavy Support Units at 1500pts and personally, I would still find that a powerful army.
Again, I don't deny their weaknesses; they are usually overpriced compared to most newer Codices and they often lack special abilities compared to new Codices, but I still feel that can pack a notable punch, particularly for a Codex of their age. I wouldn't put them in the bottom tier yet personally.
Not the bottom tier yet. I find those lists pretty damn boring though. tough, but boring. I find playing vanilla SM much more enjoyable, simply because of the options I have
The issue is chaos is *okay* at just about everything but there is a MEQ out there can beat you any way you happen to spec your build. Whether its BA, SW, GK, VM, DA... one of them if not more can beat you at your own game.
To be fair, many of the units in the chaos codex are 2nd tier choices or worse.
That being said my black legion is sitting at 12 Wins/2 Losses/8 Ties. They are surprisingly hard to shoot off the board.
Iur_tae_mont wrote:My Response to the OP: I play Tau. I have no sympathy for you.
WOW! Thank you for this HIGHLY INFORMATIVE POST, that really really adds to this discussion we are having about how competitive CSM's can be! What a highly excellent post, that contributed much to the discussion! Where would we be without that information? I'm sure this discussion would flop if it weren't for the fact that we now know you play Tau! Thank you, really, thank you so much!\
Oh I'm gonna have fun.
Jihalah, the entire OP's post was, "Everyone else in Power armor does stuff better QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ"
The LAST sentence in the first post was "In conclusion please dispel any myths you might have had that Chaos Space Marines is still a vibrant and viable codex."
Everything he posted was not "hey, I'm at a disadvantage, but let's think of how we can make it better". It was "Grey Hunters are better and cheaper than my marines, Long Fangs are better and cheaper than Havocs, Assault marines are better than my Raptors, Calgar has better Preds than me, Death Company is better than Bezerkers, and Slugga boyz are better than Lesser daemons. Also, my Deflier isn't good at anything, Oblits are worse than Broadsides, and Daemon princes are expensive target Practice for Missile Launchers"
Get off your high horse, oh great internet Warrior.
You're going to "have fun?" So your just posting up flamebait another post that's really helping this discussion! Well done
I read the OP more as "It's overcosted", not "everyone else in power armor does better". Which I agree with since I look at my little force compared to the loyalist MEQ armies my friends field. I don't think the CSM codex is "vibrant", slightly viable but not vibrant. It is boring, and with some of the newer 'dex's, its boring and easier to beat down.
So I'd suggest you dismount your "I play Tau I'm worse off" horse and off, guy
CSM codex is no where near "Vibrant" if anything it is opposite of it.
Even compare to a codex that came about the same time like Eldar or Dark Angels, it is pretty darn bland.
Iur_tae_mont wrote:Everything he posted was not "hey, I'm at a disadvantage, but let's think of how we can make it better".
Because *we* can't make it better. It doesn't matter what combination of over-priced, under-powered units you take, it's not going to make the codex good.
Remulus wrote: Hey, to be fair for chaos, you are taking units from EVERY ARMY to trump the chaos units. Thus there is more variety for them
Most people wont be able to field picked units from every army...
True that. But my beef with the chaos 'dex is
Jackster wrote:CSM codex is no where near "Vibrant" if anything it is opposite of it.
Even compare to a codex that came about the same time like Eldar or Dark Angels, it is pretty darn bland.
Just Dave wrote:Chaos can get 2 Princes, 4 Meched-up, tough, Troop Choices and 3 Heavy Support Units at 1500pts and personally, I would still find that a powerful army.
Again, I don't deny their weaknesses; they are usually overpriced compared to most newer Codices and they often lack special abilities compared to new Codices, but I still feel that can pack a notable punch, particularly for a Codex of their age. I wouldn't put them in the bottom tier yet personally.
Not the bottom tier yet. I find those lists pretty damn boring though. tough, but boring. I find playing vanilla SM much more enjoyable, simply because of the options I have
I never claimed it to be varied or interesting, nor would I, but my point was - in contrast to the OP's - that Chaos Space Marines are more viable - strength-wise, not character - than made out.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Snickerdoodle wrote:Because you have trouble winning with them, doesn't me they are not good. It means you are not good with them.
Play a different army and quit your complaining, or change your tactics and learn to play Chaos in a way you have not yet.
While at its core you are right. The lack of $500 or more lying around is a usual disincentive to just switching your army. The sadness is that after 3+ years a codex shows its age. We are probably a year or so out from chaos getting revisited so you have to make the choice. Stick with it and try to make it work or go drop the cash on the flavor of the month knowing that you will be able to return to chaos in 18 months or so.
I agree with you that Chaos is really showing its age right now, and it has a lot of over costed units when compared to other books, but I think saying that Chaos is "not viable" now is going a bit too far. After all, Chaos was one of the winners of Ard Boyz last year.
extrenm(54) wrote:I agree with you that Chaos is really showing its age right now, and it has a lot of over costed units when compared to other books, but I think saying that Chaos is "not viable" now is going a bit too far. After all, Chaos was one of the winners of Ard Boyz last year.
Ard Boy has many factors which prevent it from being reasonable data for what is considered competitive or not.
extrenm(54) wrote:I agree with you that Chaos is really showing its age right now, and it has a lot of over costed units when compared to other books, but I think saying that Chaos is "not viable" now is going a bit too far. After all, Chaos was one of the winners of Ard Boyz last year.
Ard Boy has many factors which prevent it from being reasonable data for what is considered competitive or not.
That is something that has never crossed my mind. Would you mind explaining?
2500 points makes getting the first turn even more important, and thus having a list that can take advantage of it even more important as well than more "normal" sized games. In addition, the missions often skew what is "good" a lot because they can be pretty unbalanced.
willydstyle wrote:2500 points makes getting the first turn even more important, and thus having a list that can take advantage of it even more important as well than more "normal" sized games. In addition, the missions often skew what is "good" a lot because they can be pretty unbalanced.
Your first argument applies to each army.
Look at Eldar. My experience is that a mech Eldar list is viable at lower pt levels (1500 pts) but Eldar doesn't scale very good when it comes to larger pt games.
This situation does not seem to apply to CSM.
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Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Your first argument applies to each army.
Look at Eldar. My experience is that a mech Eldar list is viable at lower pt levels (1500 pts) but Eldar doesn't scale very good when it comes to larger pt games.
This situation does not seem to apply to CSM.
I don't see how 2500 points is good for Chaos Space Marines at all. Again, they have essentially three slots where they can get any kind of range (heavy support). Elites are generally pricey, mediocre role players, or bad and fast attack is pure crap. There isn't much to add after the core of troops, HQ, and HS that makes them significantly better.
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3rd Place 2013 ATC--team Quality Control
7-1 at 2013 Nova Open (winner of bracket 4)
2 Lash sorcerers
Double Melta gun PM squads
Rhinos with havocs, combi plas, or combi melta
Oblits
Limit the unit selection to those 4 units and all of the sudden Chaos is still a tier 1 codex. We have 1 top tier competitive build that many lists rightfully fear. There are a few counters to the 1 competitive chaos list, but the 1 competitive chaos list is a very hard counter to many top tier lists. Don't get me wrong I can't wait for a new codex with some fething options and multiple competitive builds, but don't call chaos a bottom tier army because that statement just isn't fair to bottom tier armies such as Tau or Necrons.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
Obviously if you compare every chaos unit entry to the best corresponding entries of all other codices, they're going to look pretty bad. Here's another look at those examples plus a few i threw in just for laughs...
10 Grey Hunters, 2 melta guns: 155
10 tactical marines, MG/MM: 175
10 Chaos marines with two melta guns and an icon of chaos glory: 180
5 assault marines (scoring), 1 melta gun: 110 (BA)
5 assault marines, 0 melta guns because they can't take any: 90 (SM)
5 raptors, 2 melta guns: 120
Space Marine Annihilator: 165
Chaos Annihilator: 165
10 Death Company: 200 (but these ones have FNP and relentless, and can take more CC upgrades)
10 Berzerkers: 210 (but these ones are scoring)
10 Ork Slugga Boyz with 6+ and no transport or nob: 60
10 Lesser Daemons with 5++ and unlimited icon shenanigans: 130 + some icons here and there
Sorcerer with lash: 125
Sky ray missile defence gunship: 125
10 thousand sons with bolt of tzeentch and rhino: 350
5 TH/SS terminators in LRC with MM: 460
3 obliterators with power fists, lascannons, plasmacannons, multimeltas, TL meltas: 225
3 necron heavy destroyers: 195
5 plaguemarines with 2 plasmaguns: 145
5 tacticalmarines with plasmagun and combiplasma: 115
Yeah okay so they tend to cost a bit much but chaos isn't leagues behind any one dex. Their units have a lot of unique functions as well, like lesser daemons. How can you even compare them to orks, I don't even
quickly, contest objectives and have lots of armour saturation.
and about to go to work (always an excellent combination 
) I'd post more (I'll be back 
) but to those who's response is "your doin' it wrong", please 
Tons!
Tons!
Tons!
2,000pts
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2000
2000
3000
