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The title says it all...

For the last year I've been building an Adeptus Mechanicus (necrons) force. I have used the army in its early phases as deamons in torneys and had issues with my opponent now knowing what was what (even though before game i'd always let them know, and the bases were colored for convenience too).

My main question is regarding any TO out here or other's opinions on themed armies in the tornement. Would you allow it?

I was thinking of putting a white label with black text on all bases with the unit type they are and the name of the model they represent.



Mind you these models are all 75%+ made from GW products and thigns like Guitar strings, wire, plasticard, etc.

Yeah see, I'm already confused. Is it an AdMech/Imperium army? Is it as the parenthesis say and it's Necrons? Or is it as you say in the early stages a Daemons army? I need to look at something and not guess what it is...

Personally I love to see themed armies, especially more niche-market ones e.g. mechanicus etc etc.

But in a tournament where things have to happen hard and fast, the whole issue of 'is that x and does that have y weapons' can be very frustrating for an opponent already pushed for time.

A chap on here somewhere made a rebel grot army which was counts-as IG. His solution was to make an 'identification kit' poster thing which he distributed to his opponents, it contained photos of his units, and the units & equipment they represented.

e.g. you could do (going with crons as example) photo of techpriest - this is a lord with X and Y.

Do this for all your army, give to opponent, makes life much easier and makes for happier gamers, thus happier games!

I would be pissed if I had to play an entire game with a decoder ring or a cheat sheet because someone brought a bad counts as army.

If your army is a bad counts as, you failed at your mission. What I find is too many people want to play a specific army and then shoehorn inappropriate models which look nothing like the rules they are representing.

'rule of cool' wins. If you can't say 'this is necrons' and someone familiar with the codex can't instantly match the unit types based upon weapons and look of the models, it has failed.

I have seen good counts as and bad counts as. Bad counts as ruins tourneys.

All we can do is see your army. Show pics.

nkelsch wrote:'rule of cool' wins. If you can't say 'this is necrons' and someone familiar with the codex can't instantly match the unit types based upon weapons and look of the models, it has failed.

This kind of defeats the purpose of the majority of 'counts as' armies out there...

I mean, the whole point is that we have to match the rules as best we can to the army we wish to field, as a random made-up example, say I wanted to field an all-ogryn IG army, personally (remember the ridiculous hypotheticality of this example) I think the best guess would be to use the 'nid dex (because I can take squads of warriors and warrior prime HQs which are roughly ogryn-sized blah blah), represent devourers as ripper guns and barbed stranglers as missile launchers, it would be very difficult to say 'these are nids'.

But if I give a cheat sheet to my opponent, with a photo of an ogryn with ripper gun and say 'this is a nid warrior with devourer' and then a photo of a ogryn with missile launcher and say 'this is a warrior with barbed strangler' then I'm not sure how exactly that would ruin a game.


Now then, I can appreciate that a 'bad counts as' would be using ogryns with ripper guns to represent BOTH devourers AND barbed stranglers.

Either way, the dakkanaut I mentioned earlier had very good models that were easily distinguished, he just used the cheat-sheet to say 'these are grots, they are represented in rules by IG, this grot has a rokkit launcha, he represents an IG missile launcher heavy weapon team' etc etc

Leigen_Zero wrote:

nkelsch wrote:'rule of cool' wins. If you can't say 'this is necrons' and someone familiar with the codex can't instantly match the unit types based upon weapons and look of the models, it has failed.

This kind of defeats the purpose of the majority of 'counts as' armies out there...

I mean, the whole point is that we have to match the rules as best we can to the army we wish to field, as a random made-up example, say I wanted to field an all-ogryn IG army, personally (remember the ridiculous hypotheticality of this example) I think the best guess would be to use the 'nid dex (because I can take squads of warriors and warrior prime HQs which are roughly ogryn-sized blah blah), represent devourers as ripper guns and barbed stranglers as missile launchers, it would be very difficult to say 'these are nids'.

But if I give a cheat sheet to my opponent, with a photo of an ogryn with ripper gun and say 'this is a nid warrior with devourer' and then a photo of a ogryn with missile launcher and say 'this is a warrior with barbed strangler' then I'm not sure how exactly that would ruin a game.


Now then, I can appreciate that a 'bad counts as' would be using ogryns with ripper guns to represent BOTH devourers AND barbed stranglers.

Either way, the dakkanaut I mentioned earlier had very good models that were easily distinguished, he just used the cheat-sheet to say 'these are grots, they are represented in rules by IG, this grot has a rokkit launcha, he represents an IG missile launcher heavy weapon team' etc etc

Your all Ogryn example is bad counts as as models and units with clear rules are being proxied as other armies and rules with clear rules. I don't feel confident your idea could be pulled off reasonably with good quality... but that is where rule of cool comes in.

Cheat sheets have no place in a tourney because it is a burden. If I have to constantly be burdened with deciphering models and gear with CLEAR RULES are other armies then it is a burden. You do not have the right to burden an opponent at a tourney and it compromises the integrity of the game. You are advocating entire army proxies in tourneys.

The point of 'counts as' and total conversion armies in GW's sense is for models with *NO CLEAR RULES* to be used as the closest approximation. This means using Ogryns as warriors, MANZ as terminators or Bikes as TWC simply because you like those rules better is not a good conversion, a good counts as and has no place in a competative environment where WYSIWYG is required.

The Skaven Dark eldar was a good example of a WELL DONE counts as at a tourney. The genestealer Iguard was a WELL DONE example. Almost all the ADMECH ones are basically people who don't want to play a sub-optimal Iguard army even though ADMECH for the most part can be fully replicated with Iguard in every situation when it comes to fluff and available models. Sure your army may suck, but it will work. ADMECH as Demons or whatever usually results in a ton of bad proxies.

I would say there are well-done total conversion armies, and then there are bad ones which are bad to play against. I pray to never play against them at events because it ruins the game to have to deal with almost entirely proxies. You need to make sure it is clear every step of the design and not just 'I'lld o what I want' then throw a fit when people don't like your unclear conversions as much as you do.

Here you go. Enjoy.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Counts_As_Space_Marines_Army_Profiles

mrwhoop wrote:Yeah see, I'm already confused. Is it an AdMech/Imperium army? Is it as the parenthesis say and it's Necrons? Or is it as you say in the early stages a Daemons army? I need to look at something and not guess what it is...

You my friend, need to read more 40k backstory

Leigen_Zero wrote:Personally I love to see themed armies, especially more niche-market ones e.g. mechanicus etc etc.

But in a tournament where things have to happen hard and fast, the whole issue of 'is that x and does that have y weapons' can be very frustrating for an opponent already pushed for time.

A chap on here somewhere made a rebel grot army which was counts-as IG. His solution was to make an 'identification kit' poster thing which he distributed to his opponents, it contained photos of his units, and the units & equipment they represented.

e.g. you could do (going with crons as example) photo of techpriest - this is a lord with X and Y.

Do this for all your army, give to opponent, makes life much easier and makes for happier gamers, thus happier games!

THATS AN AMAZING IDEA! I CAN DIG IT!

that being said even if i did that, i'd still label on the bases themselves.

nkelsch wrote:I would be pissed if I had to play an entire game with a decoder ring or a cheat sheet because someone brought a bad counts as army.

If your army is a bad counts as, you failed at your mission. What I find is too many people want to play a specific army and then shoehorn inappropriate models which look nothing like the rules they are representing.

'rule of cool' wins. If you can't say 'this is necrons' and someone familiar with the codex can't instantly match the unit types based upon weapons and look of the models, it has failed.

I have seen good counts as and bad counts as. Bad counts as ruins tourneys.

All we can do is see your army. Show pics.

Well aren't you just a bight ray of happiness? bad? Admech is pretty much the closest 40k themed army you could get to crons without actually being them.

IronfrontAlex wrote:

Well aren't you just a bight ray of happiness? bad? Admech is pretty much the closest 40k themed army you could get to crons without actually being them.

I would ahve to see lictures to make that judgement...

And Necrons about to get a pretty big makeover so I am not sure how accurate comparing them to necrons will be soon. Especially when an admech army of humans with imperial weapons is easily used as an IGUARD army.

At least Rebel grots don't have an army and in most situations are simply a looted gort imperial army.

The issue occurs when someone makes a labor of love but doesn't take input while creating his army and his conversions are unclear, make no sense or are purely powergaming... Then it fails the rule of cool and people don't love the persons ideas as much as the owner does. And then it harms games and people in the tourney don't want to play against it.

PICS so we can judge 'rule of cool' or it is a bad total conversion army.

nkelsch wrote:

IronfrontAlex wrote:

Well aren't you just a bight ray of happiness? bad? Admech is pretty much the closest 40k themed army you could get to crons without actually being them.

I would ahve to see lictures to make that judgement...

And Necrons about to get a pretty big makeover so I am not sure how accurate comparing them to necrons will be soon. Especially when an admech army of humans with imperial weapons is easily used as an IGUARD army.

At least Rebel grots don't have an army and in most situations are simply a looted gort imperial army.

The issue occurs when someone makes a labor of love but doesn't take input while creating his army and his conversions are unclear, make no sense or are purely powergaming... Then it fails the rule of cool and people don't love the persons ideas as much as the owner does. And then it harms games and people in the tourney don't want to play against it.

PICS so we can judge 'rule of cool' or it is a bad total conversion army.

1. Pics are coming soon in a P&M blog im going to make, some units are painted some are on the way
2. If you knew 40k lore you'd know that The Adeptus Mechanicus have some ties to the Necrontyr as its rumored that the Void dragon (shard?) C'tan is on mars and is what spurred the creation of the cult mechanicus. Also Necron ships have made landfall on mars and were subsequently vaposized but it freaked out the imperium that xeno ships got that close to Terra. Admech range from bionic IG to full on robots.


you want a rundown? Some of the units are full conversions with no cron bits, others are almost entierly going to be made of necron kits with GS/plasticard over them. all with relevant wargear for WYSIWYG IE: they wont be carrying a warsythe but modeled with a bolt pistol, im actually shying away from ANY imperial weapons. These are a subsect of mechanicus anyways, the omnissads!

Overlords: Tech Magi
Command barge: this drone teleport homers i've made
Lords: Techpriests/iron priests
Crypteks: Tech marines (various chapters)
Doom Arks: Pre-Hersey Grav Rhinos from the HH collected visions
Deathmarks: (ACTUAL KIT, CONVERTED) Scout cybernetica units
Lychguard: (ACTUAL KIT, CONVERTED) Electro-Priests, modeled like Magna Guard from Star Wars
Ptaetorians: (ACTUAL KIT, CONVERTED)Auxilia Myrmidon squads Adding a hood and robes, GS over some obvious cron bits and make them look like they're armored tech adepts.
C'tan shards: Ommnisad bio-mechanical expirement. They do afterall want to reincarnate the Emperor/machine spirit into a physical, perfect "avatar"
Stalker: Cataphract Cybernetica (space crusade dreds with relevant rayguns)
Flayed Ones: combat servitors (zombie kit+SM arms+guitar Strings+chainsword hands)
Warriors: Hypastist Skitarii, Dave Taylor Style, one unit of menial skitarii (slave dudes with odd looking green scifi style guns)
Immortals: Praetorian Armored protectors
Wraiths: Sentinels-style floating tenticled dudes, already made and very obvious
Scarabs: also obvious, SERVO SKULL SWARMS! ahah
Tomb blades/destroyers: not too interested in them, idk yet.
Doomsday ark: (ACTUAL KIT, CONVERTED)
Monolith: Imperial bastions with monolith bottoms, floating with custom guns relevant to the ones needed, again obvious.
doom scythe and variant: (ACTUAL KIT, CONVERTED)
Tomb Spyders: (ACTUAL KIT, CONVERTED) floating Recovery bots
Special Characters: (ACTUAL KIT, CONVERTED) they will simply be head/weapon swaps with GS over anything i cant cut off that's blatantly cron style, add hoods and skin to some.


There!

So many arguements about counts as.

My personal opinion is that if the "counts as" is so abstract and difficult to decifer/remember that you need a cheat sheet than it is too much. It takes time and energy away from your opponent's ability to plan and strategize and generally hurts their performance. I don't think that is a fair thing to do in a tournament setting.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:So many arguements about counts as.

My personal opinion is that if the "counts as" is so abstract and difficult to decifer/remember that you need a cheat sheet than it is too much. It takes time and energy away from your opponent's ability to plan and strategize and generally hurts their performance. I don't think that is a fair thing to do in a tournament setting.

Point taken on confusing. But I don't think its be being unfair. It took a lot of time and money to make each model iint the army unique. Mind you this isn't like others who proxy guns, each of my weapons are unique to this force, astheticaly.

All models based on proper bases, labeld on the side of the base in large print what it is representing.

Oh and I finish turns fast? :p

As long as it's reasonably obvious what's what, then it shouldn't be too much of an issue. This debate seems very closely related to the use of proxies. While these may be of much higher quality, they are still essentially proxy models.

Its because me, the OP was talkiing themed armies, the second poster was talking proxies.

My models aren't proxies, 100% full conversions, and not too awkward ones i might add.

IronfrontAlex wrote:Its because me, the OP was talkiing themed armies, the second poster was talking proxies.

My models aren't proxies, 100% full conversions, and not too awkward ones i might add.

If your opponent is not able to distinguish what is actually what the model is supposed to represent then to me you are under the Proxy rule regardless it is made out of GW parts. You might be able to get away in your small local Tournaments that you go to because people know you but in the bigger ones forget it.

That is one hell of an advantage when your opponent could get mixed up on what is what that is on the game table. It will throw off his entire strategy in all aspects of the game.

IronfrontAlex wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:So many arguements about counts as.

My personal opinion is that if the "counts as" is so abstract and difficult to decifer/remember that you need a cheat sheet than it is too much. It takes time and energy away from your opponent's ability to plan and strategize and generally hurts their performance. I don't think that is a fair thing to do in a tournament setting.

Point taken on confusing. But I don't think its be being unfair. It took a lot of time and money to make each model iint the army unique. Mind you this isn't like others who proxy guns, each of my weapons are unique to this force, astheticaly.

All models based on proper bases, labeld on the side of the base in large print what it is representing.

Oh and I finish turns fast? :p

If it's unfair to your opponent, that can't be mitigated by work, time, or money you put into the models. That was your choice to make. Your opponent shouldn't need a cheat sheet, and should be able to tell what each unit is without one. Some of the counts as armies are doing are fairly cool, as far as model building goes, but that doesn't mean they are appropriate for use in a tournament. Especially a larger GT. At a local event, it might be hoped that players have seen the army before, played against it in casual games, and the confusion is mitigated. But getting to a GT and having to play against models you have no clue about is both annoying and unfair to your opponent.

IronfrontAlex wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:So many arguements about counts as.

My personal opinion is that if the "counts as" is so abstract and difficult to decifer/remember that you need a cheat sheet than it is too much. It takes time and energy away from your opponent's ability to plan and strategize and generally hurts their performance. I don't think that is a fair thing to do in a tournament setting.

Point taken on confusing. But I don't think its be being unfair. It took a lot of time and money to make each model iint the army unique. Mind you this isn't like others who proxy guns, each of my weapons are unique to this force, astheticaly.

All models based on proper bases, labeld on the side of the base in large print what it is representing.

Oh and I finish turns fast? :p

Ask the Tournament Organizer.

Pretty much they can tell you how well it will be received.

Make little placards for each unit. Put them on a fantasy rank base (1"x4") and label them as "Skitarri - count as Necron Warriors" or whatever. You can use the placards when displaying your army as well as playing.
Also having a cheat-sheet with photo references is a good idea.

Adam LongWalker wrote:

IronfrontAlex wrote:Its because me, the OP was talkiing themed armies, the second poster was talking proxies.

My models aren't proxies, 100% full conversions, and not too awkward ones i might add.

If your opponent is not able to distinguish what is actually what the model is supposed to represent then to me you are under the Proxy rule regardless it is made out of GW parts. You might be able to get away in your small local Tournaments that you go to because people know you but in the bigger ones forget it.

That is one hell of an advantage when your opponent could get mixed up on what is what that is on the game table. It will throw off his entire strategy in all aspects of the game.

There are all 100% GW products

Trasvi wrote:Make little placards for each unit. Put them on a fantasy rank base (1"x4") and label them as "Skitarri - count as Necron Warriors" or whatever. You can use the placards when displaying your army as well as playing.
Also having a cheat-sheet with photo references is a good idea.

Again, good idea.

Yeah see, I'm still confused. So are you it seems. In essence I asked what army rules are you using for these models. Is it IG with necron models, Necron rules with IG models or an all new home brew codex? And why did you mention that you played them as Daemons in 'the early stages' when you're talking about the final product that will be your themed army?

IronfrontAlex

You my friend, need to read more 40k backstory

No, save for the HH I've read a good bit of the background for a number of the armies. I own quite a few BL books as well for other points of view on the fluff that is 40k.

IronfrontAlex

you want a rundown? Some of the units are full conversions with no cron bits, others are almost entierly going to be made of necron kits with GS/plasticard over them. all with relevant wargear for WYSIWYG IE: they wont be carrying a warsythe but modeled with a bolt pistol, im actually shying away from ANY imperial weapons

Ok, it got clear and then muddy again. You still haven't mentioned what codex this army will use. Also how can you shy away from Imperial tech and then model bolt pistols on them? The Imperium is the only race cruel enough that uses rocket propelled exploding ammo. I think you skipped a step in your thinking and the typed message isn't making sense.

From what I gather you are making your own fluff using some necron models to make an Admech army using IG rules. If this is right, no matter how much of the model is scratch or GW, IT IS A PROXY.

IronfrontAlex

each of my weapons are unique to this force, astheticaly

So if I look at your models they'll be consistent but not look like what they represent? I'll see a gun and you'll say it's a meltagun but not look it? You're putting the burden on me to know your aesthetic and what you're modeling. A well done themed army can still look original and still be consistent with the weapons they use so it'll look somewhat like what other armies of that rule set employ.

Even if the models are 100% Gw parts and scratch built, they can still be proxies. This sounds like a nightmare of an army to play.

Pictures please, if you actually want feedback, and like others, I'm confused as to what list you are actually using for the army.

Rule of cruel is a harsh mistress. Live by the rule of cruel, die by the rule of cool.

Pics and arbitrary judgements are all that can help this thread.

Many of the people here need to read up.

It's not an Imperial army. At all. The Mechanicus are a separate organization.

I, for one, think this is a wonderful idea and would gladly play it at a tournament. I'll willingly suffer the handicap if it means I get to play a great-looking, unique army on the table.

@Unit1126PLL
You sir, need to read up. The Admech is part of the Imperium fluff-wise but to play on the table there needs to be a codex. Whether he puts one together himself or uses an existing one is a high point of contention as it determines what he models the units/weapons as so that his opponents know what they're playing against.

Themed army? That's fine, can I tell what I'm looking at so I can make tactical choices and get to roll dice please?

If the army is unique it shouldn't a problem. What I'd have issues with is if someone plops a "themed" army on the table then hands me a hard bound book the size of "Gone with the Wind" to decipher units and wargear. If I can look across the table and tell who has a ML vice a Melta gun/Lascannon then all is well. However if on page 92 of the handout it states that HBs are actually Autocannons then we are going to have problems.

You're going to find there's the two basic camps already representing themselves in regards to this issue, one I've brought up before myself:

1. It takes too much effort to determine what is what and is a drain on my enjoyment of the game and/or ability to compete.

2. Rule of Cool wins the day! This is a good idea and representative of what a skilled modeller can do with a little creativity.

I'm firmly in the second camp. A while back, I wanted to use skittles eldar models using space wolves rules to represent a maiden world's defense force of mixed aspect warrior squads: Avengers for bolter marines, Banshees for power weapon marines, Fire Dragons for melta marines, Dark Reapers for ML Long Fangs, Scorpions for MotW marines, etc.

I got basically the same responses you see here in addition to the "That's not fluff appropriate! No way Eldar could be S4 T4!!!11!!oneone!" It's a fictional world folks, where non-sentient monkeys built devices of fantastical technology. Take a chill pill. Regardless of this, I decided not to play the force just because of the difficulty I knew I was going to run into trying to explain what was what to someone with no idea of what eldar are.

It really comes down to how different your "proxy" models are from the models they are representing. No one really has any trouble (other than the regular grumbling about flavor of the week) with marines counting as Blood Angels or Wolves as long as the models match up. Using Necron and IG models to represent Ad-Mech using Necron rules is going to throw some folks.

It *MAY* be OK. If it's SUPER obvious what is what, then you might be OK. You have to be prepared for your opponent to say, "I can't tell what anything is" and accept disqualification, though.

It might be an OK army to play in a friendly setting, where people have seen it before and know what's what, but if someone plopped down a bunch of GW stuff on the table in front of me and said "Figure it out" I'd be asking for disqualification pretty damn quick. It's enough that we have to memorize rules and gear for all of the armies. We don't need to memorize your obscure proxies on-the-spot. Just sayin'.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Many of the people here need to read up.

It's not an Imperial army. At all. The Mechanicus are a separate organization.

I, for one, think this is a wonderful idea and would gladly play it at a tournament. I'll willingly suffer the handicap if it means I get to play a great-looking, unique army on the table.

Thanks! i'll have photos up ASAP!

mrwhoop wrote:@Unit1126PLL
You sir, need to read up. The Admech is part of the Imperium fluff-wise but to play on the table there needs to be a codex. Whether he puts one together himself or uses an existing one is a high point of contention as it determines what he models the units/weapons as so that his opponents know what they're playing against.

Themed army? That's fine, can I tell what I'm looking at so I can make tactical choices and get to roll dice please?

Mechanicum is more like an incredibly close ally to humanity. I mean the double eagle is supposed to represent earth and mars afterall.

mrwhoop wrote:@Unit1126PLL
You sir, need to read up. The Admech is part of the Imperium fluff-wise but to play on the table there needs to be a codex. Whether he puts one together himself or uses an existing one is a high point of contention as it determines what he models the units/weapons as so that his opponents know what they're playing against.

The Treaty of Mars disagrees with you sir. And he is trying to use an existing codex, incidentally the one about living machines.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

mrwhoop wrote:@Unit1126PLL
You sir, need to read up. The Admech is part of the Imperium fluff-wise but to play on the table there needs to be a codex. Whether he puts one together himself or uses an existing one is a high point of contention as it determines what he models the units/weapons as so that his opponents know what they're playing against.

The Treaty of Mars disagrees with you sir. And he is trying to use an existing codex, incidentally the one about living machines.

representing a force with unique units, cybernetica, ray guns, lasers, expirements guass weapons and prototype grav vehicles, OH MY!