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What would your picks be for worst units in the game?
What's worse than what I picked?


Infantry: Wood Elf Scouts. 17 points for an elf with a bow; you're paying a lot more to get a lot worse.
Cavalry: Centigors, not quite heavy cav, not cheap enough for light cav duty; poor saves and low initiatives mean too many die before they can attack. No single factor makes them bad, but taken as a whole, you end up spending far too many points for far too little effect.
Warbeast: Dire Wolf. It's like an expensive chaos hound that can't choose flee and crumbles.
Swarms: Vampire Counts Bat Swarms. Only 10" move, 4 S2 attacks, and lacking poison that most other swarms have.
Chariot: Tiranoc Chariot. All are decent, but with this one, better options are in the list for adding extra punch (lion chariot) or running off broken units (eagle/reavers)
Monstrous Infantry: Ubshti. 50 points. S4. If you take the great weapon, you're basically an Iron gut, only more expensive, and you crumble. I nearly said yetee, but a doom and darkness slaughtermaster with the aura of frost yetee can make for a lot of auto hits at S5 and magical. Init 4 and swift stride has made them worth the 44 points in my experience.
Monstrous Beast: Chaos spawn. Not strong enough, and not fast enough. Outside of covering for ambushers, it's pretty useless.
Monstrous Mount: Empire Griffon. A bit too expensive, but the bigger problem is that the guy riding it sucks. You end up with an expensive flying turd.
Monstrous Cav: Blood Crushers, hit hard enough, but doesn't take a punch well. It's just too expensive for what you get. It would be a winner with a 3rd wound.
Monster: Daemons of Chaos Daemon Prince. He needs a full 100 points of gifts, and really would like the level 3 option for casting. You just can't get him useful for his cost.
Unique: Skink Cohorts. T2 basic guys is too much for the S6 to make up for.

Hero: Death Hag (without cauldron). Biggest loser with step up rules, no real way to keep alive.
Lord: Wood Elf High Born. Again it's a step up issue. Can't effectively keep him alive from rank and file attacks, while still having him hit hard enough to be useful.

Left one out:
Warmachine: Dwarf Flame Cannon. It's just like a warpfire thrower, only costs twice as much and is worse in every I can think of.



-Matt

Forsaken straight up terrible.
Same points cost as chosen.
Lower ws lower initiative.
Heavy armor not markable and just terrible all round.

Disagree that demon prince is bad. I had thought about it and one area it is not only good, but awesometacular is in low point games. To get a naked Greater Daemon you need to be in an 1800+ pt game, and a naked GD isn't so great. A demon prince can be in a 1200pt game. And naked, he can wreck a lot of faces as there's a good chance many forces can't deal with him. Besides you have entire monsters in Beastmen which are vastly worse and Giants that cost 225 still in some books.

Dragon Ogres are the worst Monstrous Beast. I mean, look at the models if you had any doubt. It's like GW is sticking their tongues out at you.

Screamers of Tzeentch for War Beasts. I just don't get 'em.

Dp are not terrible they are not great.

Drogers are beasts their models look slowed but check out buttlers page he made some super sexy awesome drogers.
They also rock in the game it just takes a few points to make them awesome.

Never seen screamers used.

HawaiiMatt wrote:What would your picks be for worst units in the game?
What's worse than what I picked?

Swarms: Vampire Counts Bat Swarms. Only 10" move, 4 S2 attacks, and lacking poison that most other swarms have.

-Matt

Dunno the cost for Vampire Bat Swarms, but Skaven rat swarms also lack poison. While rat swarms are A5 vs bat A4, rat swarms are M6, not flying. About the only thing I have rat bases for is when the Abomb dies...

Jungle Swarms. Overpriced both points wise and money wise, and you can do a lot better with just skinks.

cowpow16 wrote:Never seen screamers used.

Thats because their to expensive for what they do, and T3 means that they drop like flies a 5+ ward will only go so far.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Monstrous Beast: Chaos spawn. Not strong enough, and not fast enough. Outside of covering for ambushers, it's pretty useless.

I intend to push spawn as far as I can as I return to my warriors, but for the most part I agree on both of your dings. Also, the drop from 4 wounds in HoC to 3 in WoC is an extra kick in the gribbles, for dudes whose purpose is mostly to stay alive awhile

cowpow16 wrote:Forsaken straight up terrible.
Same points cost as chosen.
Lower ws lower initiative.
Heavy armor not markable and just terrible all round.

On the other hand, even I can't make forsaken worthwhile. Their only bonus is that the min unit size is 5

- Salvage

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Monstrous Infantry: Ubshti. 50 points. S4. If you take the great weapon, you're basically an Iron gut, only more expensive, and you crumble.

They won't flee, have a good number of attacks, you can bring them back, and they augments from the lore of nehekhara make them better. Also, you have the great bow option, not the best, but okay.

The worst I would say is rat ogres, I managed to kill two rat ogres with one knight of the realm and a naked paladin.

I actually went looking around to think of worse MI. But the fact it, I think nearly all MI across WHFB have a use--one of the few times that is universally pretty solid. Rat Ogres might be a tad worse than Ushbati, but both have their uses.

Ushabty with great bows and with magic they get 2 shots each hitting on 5s it's not bad I mean they are walking bolt throwers.

Boss you made great use of the spawn from what I saw o&g your last report.
Bur yes forsaken are way over priced and sub par units.

A horde of rat ogres can be quite a problem but in small numbers not that great.

I would almost nominate Bret bowmen but they have the ability to be flaming arrows which is awesome.

Yeah bret bows can be good.
"oh so you have 300 points of mean stuff, that only have a regen save, now meet my fifty archers, with flaming arrows, which only cost 305 points, what regen save!"
or
"so your sword masters are in the building, now meet my fifty archers, with flaming arrows, which only cost 305 points, enjoy! "

You mention Swarms, but not Snotlings? 3/5 the price of an Ushabti with 5 T2 wounds, just one more attack than Bat Swarms, only M4, take up Special points... Somehow GW has managed to make them worse and worse with each new Army Book (6th Edition's Snotling Swarms are the only one of the last three editions I would actually use).

Cygor takes the prize as the most useless thing in the Beastmen book thou, but I also agree on the Forsaken, they are horribel

cowpow16 wrote:Ushabty with great bows and with magic they get 2 shots each hitting on 5s it's not bad I mean they are walking bolt throwers.

Boss you made great use of the spawn from what I saw o&g your last report.
Bur yes forsaken are way over priced and sub par units.

A horde of rat ogres can be quite a problem but in small numbers not that great.

I would almost nominate Bret bowmen but they have the ability to be flaming arrows which is awesome.

Except they aren't bolt throwers. They don't ignore armor, they don't do multiple wounds, and they don't penetrate ranks.
IF they did hit like bolt throwers they would be worth it.

-Matt

Ushabti with great bows have the single advantage of looking nice on your shelf while the rest of your army actually fights.

Haha Matt why do you rain on my parade :p

But ya still str 6 shots still noice.

But ya they are not great they do look really cool.
Such a shame.

cowpow16 wrote:Forsaken straight up terrible.
Same points cost as chosen.
Lower ws lower initiative.
Heavy armor not markable and just terrible all round.

Looking at them on army builder they look good on paper, but I have never seen them used.

Here is what I see

90 points for 5d3+5 ws4 s4 I5 attacks on a unit with a move of 6. That's only 1 less than hounds/heavy cav. Why are small squads not used as a fast and light scirmish unit like chaos hounds or marauder horsemen? It seems they could fit that roll well against armies that don't have a lot of bows, and the unit seems a bit too small to shoot a war machine at them. Against armies with a lot of bows they would have to stay to the sides of the main battle line and try to avoid trouble until they can jump out and eat fast cav/fliers/flanking units. Most units attempting to flank the main lines would get wrecked by 2 or 3 forsaken.

What do you mean look good on paper?
They cost as much as chosen and the only thing they can do better is possibly have two more attacks than them.

The point is they are not too good for the same price you can get marauder fast cav or a chosen which would do much more or a kitted out warrior.


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Also there are hellcannons for watching flanks as well as knights they may be more pricey than forsaken but have much more use and dont suck.

cowpow16 wrote:What do you mean look good on paper?
They cost as much as chosen and the only thing they can do better is possibly have two more attacks than them.

The point is they are not too good for the same price you can get marauder fast cav or a chosen which would do much more or a kitted out warrior.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there are hellcannons for watching flanks as well as knights they may be more pricey than forsaken but have much more use and dont suck.

Comparing forsaken to chosen is like comparing marauder horsemen or hounds to chosen. The chosen are a lot more badass, but chosen are to slow to perform the jobs of the other units.

Forsaken: 90 points for 5d3+5 ws4 s4 I5 attacks.

Marauder Horsemen: 90 points for 7 attacks at WS4 S3 (4 on the charge with a spear) I4 attacks + 7 attacks at WS3 S3 I3 for the horses
Horsemen pay more points for less attacks with a lower strength and WS (averaging out the horses), are faster at move 8, but are leadership 7. Leadership 8 is actually pretty good for a fast unit that is going to operate outside of the range of the general and bsb.

Chaos hounds: 90 points for 15 WS4 S3 I3 attacks. Hounds are nowhere near the hitting power of forsaken and have a crippling low leadership of 5. The one thing I do wonder about hounds however is why people don't run a small unit or 2, at 30 points for a minimum size unit a 5 or 6 sized unit seems perfect for war machine hunting, blocking charges, and baiting units. I don't see hounds being used very often either.

A small unit of forsaken does seem to fill a roll that no other unit (with a movement of 6+) comes close to filling. What am I not getting about forsaken?

Well they are not needed if you have a hellcannon and you could just make a 10 man warrior unit that has a better chance of living and killing.

They have heavy armor so a 5+ save where as small unit of warriors can have better armor. Has a high ws and initiative which with a 5+ armor save can mean the difference between winning a combat or dying.

What do you need the M6 for? your army moves slowly ish so keeping the flanks safe can be done by other warriors.

You back field can be kept safe by a hellcannon or two and you always have magic and a little flickering fire can take out those nasty low armor things that try to get in your back field or flanks.


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Compared to other armies options they are good but for what woc have they are sub par.

Best use for Forsaken is a body guard for Throgg.
Or in a block with mindrazor, where the fist full of attacks can really pay off.
5D3+ 3 isn't quite right; it's D3x5 + 3; and that's the whole problem. Their combat ability is too strongly tied to a single die roll.

Still, I'd say forsaken have more of a use the wood elf scouts. I considered forsaken in my list, but they came in 2nd to scouts.

-Matt

I'm staggered that nobody has mentioned Skink Krox beig included in the first post, they're incredible!

Sure they're T2, but they're on such a narrow frontage and have so many ranks that they don't get hit that much and have the bodies to take it whilst still being Steadfast forever. Add in to that the S6 Krox who you can't even attack until virtually all the skinks are dead and you have a very tasty combat unit even before you start contemplating those same skinks at WS10...

tmarichards wrote:I'm staggered that nobody has mentioned Skink Krox beig included in the first post, they're incredible!

Sure they're T2, but they're on such a narrow frontage and have so many ranks that they don't get hit that much and have the bodies to take it whilst still being Steadfast forever. Add in to that the S6 Krox who you can't even attack until virtually all the skinks are dead and you have a very tasty combat unit even before you start contemplating those same skinks at WS10...

What do you mean WS10? Skinks are WS2 I believe.

WS3
Lore of Light is what he is thinking. A good lore for lizards overall.
And Skrox is certainly not remotely close to the worst unit category. If anything, they are one of the greatest monster hunting unit in the whole book. (Poison Jav stand and shoot, poison melee at I4, then S6 Krox swings.)
And they move fairly fast so they flank pretty well.

Jackster's right, I meant to examine them in a vacuum first and then throw some light buffs into the mix.

Jackster wrote:WS3
Lore of Light is what he is thinking. A good lore for lizards overall.
And Skrox is certainly not remotely close to the worst unit category. If anything, they are one of the greatest monster hunting unit in the whole book. (Poison Jav stand and shoot, poison melee at I4, then S6 Krox swings.)
And they move fairly fast so they flank pretty well.

WS2, and you don't get poison in melee, the Jungle Poison rule says shooting only.
WS2 and T2 pretty much makes them the worst of the Unique units.
299 points gets you 6 wide with 3 krox, but only 6 deep.
As you try and scale up for steadfast, you rapidly add expense to a unit that loses a few ranks per round of combat.

What Unique unit do you think is Worse the Skinks and Krox?

-Matt

Tomb Scorpions are pretty bad.

Not reliable for what they are supposed to do, and its VERY SPECIFIC what they need to do.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Jackster wrote:WS3
Lore of Light is what he is thinking. A good lore for lizards overall.
And Skrox is certainly not remotely close to the worst unit category. If anything, they are one of the greatest monster hunting unit in the whole book. (Poison Jav stand and shoot, poison melee at I4, then S6 Krox swings.)
And they move fairly fast so they flank pretty well.

WS2, and you don't get poison in melee, the Jungle Poison rule says shooting only.
WS2 and T2 pretty much makes them the worst of the Unique units.
299 points gets you 6 wide with 3 krox, but only 6 deep.
As you try and scale up for steadfast, you rapidly add expense to a unit that loses a few ranks per round of combat.

What Unique unit do you think is Worse the Skinks and Krox?

-Matt

Why are you calling them unique? They are core choices.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Jackster wrote:WS3
Lore of Light is what he is thinking. A good lore for lizards overall.
And Skrox is certainly not remotely close to the worst unit category. If anything, they are one of the greatest monster hunting unit in the whole book. (Poison Jav stand and shoot, poison melee at I4, then S6 Krox swings.)
And they move fairly fast so they flank pretty well.

WS2, and you don't get poison in melee, the Jungle Poison rule says shooting only.
WS2 and T2 pretty much makes them the worst of the Unique units.
299 points gets you 6 wide with 3 krox, but only 6 deep.
As you try and scale up for steadfast, you rapidly add expense to a unit that loses a few ranks per round of combat.

What Unique unit do you think is Worse the Skinks and Krox?

-Matt

Why are you calling them unique? They are core choices.

As in their unit type, they are unique because they are a mixture of infantry and regular infantry.