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There arent that many to compare with. And unlike other unit types each are vastly different from one another.
So it really shouldnt be a category in the first place.
Gyrocopters maybe? Expensive and probably better to just get another warmachine.

If you are up to adding special characters to your list of worse options I would like to put a vote in for Orion. Expensive and crumbles

Worst Character: Bragg the Gutsman. Sadly he also wins the "Coolest model award"


Worst Monsterous Infantry: Yhetees, but only compared to what else is in the book. Several Problems. 1) Special Choice, competing for points with Leadbeltchers, Mournfangs, Sabretusks, and Maneaters. 2) Chilling aura only effects models in base contact, supporting attacks are uneffected. 3) Slightly more expensive then Leadbeltchers and Ironguts. 4) Fast unit role is covered by Mournfangs and Sabretusks pretty solidly. 5) Flammable. seriously GW???

IMO, to make them viable they only needed to get Ambushers, Scout, or Vanguard. That would have given the option of having a MI unit of 6 models come in from the rear or something and hit the enemy flank or rear of a combat you are in. That would make them different enough from Mournfangs to be worth considering.

Monstrous Infantry is so good in all the books that even the bad ones are solid. From Rat Ogres to Kroxigor to Chaos Trolls to River Trolls to Ironguts to whatever.

Worst char is probably too hard to say. Kroak is pretty amazingly bad even though I love him to death. He's got one spell and it isn't even THAAAT great. And if it gets blown away, he's basically just a turd on a rock. An insanely expensive one.

Grey Templar wrote:Worst Character: Bragg the Gutsman. Sadly he also wins the "Coolest model award"

That's a shame. Bragg's model is awesome! I haven't looked at his rules very closely, so I can't comment on how bad he is. However, one character that I have looked at that is patently awful is Prince Apophas. I'd be hard pressed to find a special character worse than Prince Apoo-poo!

I'll tell you about bragg.


For twice the expense of a naked Bruiser, you get.

+1Str and...wait for it...HKB in challanges only.

Grey Templar wrote:Worst Character: Bragg the Gutsman. Sadly he also wins the "Coolest model award"


Worst Monsterous Infantry: Yhetees, but only compared to what else is in the book. Several Problems. 1) Special Choice, competing for points with Leadbeltchers, Mournfangs, Sabretusks, and Maneaters. 2) Chilling aura only effects models in base contact, supporting attacks are uneffected. 3) Slightly more expensive then Leadbeltchers and Ironguts. 4) Fast unit role is covered by Mournfangs and Sabretusks pretty solidly. 5) Flammable. seriously GW???

IMO, to make them viable they only needed to get Ambushers, Scout, or Vanguard. That would have given the option of having a MI unit of 6 models come in from the rear or something and hit the enemy flank or rear of a combat you are in. That would make them different enough from Mournfangs to be worth considering.

All Yetees need to be awesome is to be supported by a death mage with doom and darkness. Fail the fear test (at -3), and suddenly, the unit is WS1, the front rank is WS0. I don't know about you, but I'm a fan of 21 S5 auto hits. Too bad it is so situational.
Why yetees are flammable is beyond me.

Competing for specials isn't really an issue. Between heroes, core and rares, I don't see very many lists hit that 50% special limit.

-Matt

Since you're including points costs as evident by the wood elf scouts, Lion Chariot is the worst chariot.

140 points of specials for T4 4 wounds 4+ armor save chariot with only D6 impact hits.
A Tiranoc Chariot is only 85 points and also T4 and 4 wounds with D6 impact hits.

If any opponent ever goes a single game without killing a T4 4 wound model that costs 140 points, they deserve to lose.

In comparison, a Dark Elf chariot is T5 4 wounds and 3+ armor save with D6+1 impact hits, decent riders and decent mounts and costs 100 points. 40 points less than a Lion Chariot.
That T5 makes archers and many spells half as effective against the dark elf chariot which costs so much less and hits just as hard.

TheBloodGod wrote:Since you're including points costs as evident by the wood elf scouts, Lion Chariot is the worst chariot.

140 points of specials for T4 4 wounds 4+ armor save chariot with only D6 impact hits.
A Tiranoc Chariot is only 85 points and also T4 and 4 wounds with D6 impact hits.

If any opponent ever goes a single game without killing a T4 4 wound model that costs 140 points, they deserve to lose.

That was my 2nd choice.
2 S6 with ASF, and 4 S5, and fear, and move 8. Between the two, I'd rather have the lion chariot over the Tiranoc chariot. Realistically, I'd take neither. High elves don't need the hand to hand punch that chariots bring.

Dark elves get T5 and 3+, but are -1M, stupid and S4 (S5 on charge). If it weren't for the fact that you also get a pair of repeaters on the dark chariot, I'd like the lion more, simply because they hit harder in combat. Surviving to get into combat doesn't do you any good if being there doesn't make the difference.

-Matt

You all made me look it up. I don't think it's that bad. Certainly not the worst unit in the game.

It's a T4 4 wound model with 4+ armor that moves 8 and ASF with 4 Str 6 and 5 Attacks at WS5.

I ran the battle calculator against Mournfang Cavalry with IF. 1 chariot does about double the MC. With 2 MC (about same cost) win by about 63%. If I add impact hits from chariot against 2 MC the chariot wins by about double.

That's all mathhammer, of course, but those high str attacks with solid WS and crazy speed can do a lot of dmg. Especially on a 8 movement platform.

If you had your entire army made of them they probably wouldn't be so good, however.

The Fire mage on dragon hero option for HEs. Ive no idea what the devs were thinking when the put a ranged caster on a close combat monster.

Jubear wrote:The Fire mage on dragon hero option for HEs. Ive no idea what the devs were thinking when the put a ranged caster on a close combat monster.

Well he can opt to take Flaming Sword of Ruin instead of Fireball. Thats something he can cast on himself, which basically makes the dragon auto-wound most infantry.

Grey Templar wrote:

Jubear wrote:The Fire mage on dragon hero option for HEs. Ive no idea what the devs were thinking when the put a ranged caster on a close combat monster.

Well he can opt to take Flaming Sword of Ruin instead of Fireball. Thats something he can cast on himself, which basically makes the dragon auto-wound most infantry.

You cant "auto wound" in WHFB and the spell only effects the rider not the dragon itself. Also the mage still has a horrible combat stat line and do you really want to waste power dice on such a weak spell? Oh and almost any infantry can allocate attacks onto the mage killing him with ease.

Jubear wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Jubear wrote:The Fire mage on dragon hero option for HEs. Ive no idea what the devs were thinking when the put a ranged caster on a close combat monster.

Well he can opt to take Flaming Sword of Ruin instead of Fireball. Thats something he can cast on himself, which basically makes the dragon auto-wound most infantry.

You cant "auto wound" in WHFB and the spell only effects the rider not the dragon itself. Also the mage still has a horrible combat stat line and do you really want to waste power dice on such a weak spell? Oh and almost any infantry can allocate attacks onto the mage killing him with ease.

Yes you can.

BRB FAQ, P6, left column


And the spell is cast on a unit. The Dragon and Mage are a single unit.

Grey Templar wrote:

Jubear wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Jubear wrote:The Fire mage on dragon hero option for HEs. Ive no idea what the devs were thinking when the put a ranged caster on a close combat monster.

Well he can opt to take Flaming Sword of Ruin instead of Fireball. Thats something he can cast on himself, which basically makes the dragon auto-wound most infantry.

You cant "auto wound" in WHFB and the spell only effects the rider not the dragon itself. Also the mage still has a horrible combat stat line and do you really want to waste power dice on such a weak spell? Oh and almost any infantry can allocate attacks onto the mage killing him with ease.

Yes you can.

BRB FAQ, P6, left column


And the spell is cast on a unit. The Dragon and Mage are a single unit.

Indeed so you can thanks for the correction (first game the GW has released in nearly 20 years that allows you to auto wound) Bad unit is still bad however and my earlier comment about the mage getting butchered by even rank and file still stands not to mention the joys of having 350 points of model removed first turn by a cannon.

Now excuse me I need to go find a way to exploit this new found knowledge.

Don't forget to exploit the dragon's thunderstomp and the fact you can breathe in CC. It isn't so much the damage caused by breathing than the fact that it autohits, which can be quite useful, especially if it can benefit from flaming sword of fire.

Avatar 720 wrote:Don't forget to exploit the dragon's thunderstomp and the fact you can breathe in CC. It isn't so much the damage caused by breathing than the fact that it autohits, which can be quite useful, especially if it can benefit from flaming sword of fire.

Oh I still wouldnt field a dragon its 8th edition after all =) but its giving me some ideas about a fire mage and whitelions. Ive always just ran the mage as a anti hydra/Hellpit canon but now I a m think throwing some more points at him to get him to a level 2 plus the staff of spell choosing might be a combo I wanaa try.

There only is 1 bad unit in the whole of Whfb and 40k.

All those dice you roll.

That is it plain and simple.
Every unit / model is brilliant when rolling what you need.

GBDarkAngel wrote:There only is 1 bad unit in the whole of Whfb and 40k.

All those dice you roll.

That is it plain and simple.
Every unit / model is brilliant when rolling what you need.

Roll whatever you want, wood elf scouts can't beat a wraith.

-Matt

Anything can win on combat resolution.

DukeRustfield wrote:You all made me look it up. I don't think it's that bad. Certainly not the worst unit in the game.

It's a T4 4 wound model with 4+ armor that moves 8 and ASF with 4 Str 6 and 5 Attacks at WS5.

I ran the battle calculator against Mournfang Cavalry with IF. 1 chariot does about double the MC. With 2 MC (about same cost) win by about 63%. If I add impact hits from chariot against 2 MC the chariot wins by about double.

That's all mathhammer, of course, but those high str attacks with solid WS and crazy speed can do a lot of dmg. Especially on a 8 movement platform.

If you had your entire army made of them they probably wouldn't be so good, however.

Not worst unit in the game.
Worst chariot in the game (when points costs are included at all.)
Your math-hammering does not include the fact that there is a shooting phase or a magic phase.
The reason a Lion Chariot is the worst in the game is not that it's bad in combat. It's at least above-average in combat.
The reason it's the worst in the game is it's phenomenally expensive and also very, very easy to kill with shooting or magic.
That exact combination of very high points cost and extremely easy to kill with shooting or magic makes it a terrible unit.

Who do I want to shoot with my fireball, the 140 point flimsy chariot with 4 wounds or 36 points for 4 wounds of High Elf spearmen?
Including a Lion Chariot in an army is like "Thank you for being my opponent, I've decided to make all of your shooting and magic worth 4x as many points, have a good day!"

I think all the chariots other than TK and O&G are about equally sucky. Beastman chariot sucks, it is sturdier but way wussier. So yes, it has a somewhat better chance of getting somewhere, but when it gets there it won't do anything. WoC doesn't do that much (didn't even know they had one...).

Chariot is just one of those unit types they aren't sure what to do with. I suppose it's kind of a super heavy cavalry, but none of them are particularly defensive, they are built for offense.

I don't know why anyone except TK even has one. Are goblins really riding through tunnels on a chariot?

Wood Elf scouts are in no way the game's worst infantry unit - they can actually kill stuff.


Worst unit in the entire fething game goes to... ZOMBIES!!!


Hey look, it's one of only 3 core options in the army, is a combat tarpit unit that has WS1/I1/S2/T2/A1/Ld-poo and crumbles! Oh, and they cost the same as tomb king skeletons for feth's sake!
Freaking skaven slaves and gnoblars beat the snot out of zombies... God forbid they fight anything with WS3 or higher, now they need 5's to hit and 5' if not 6's to wound.
Oh, and you're supposed to hold enemies up with these guys, supposedly for more than 1 combat phase too! And god forbid you think of actually using them as support for your heavy hitting rares like blood knights... (you know, like the GW tactica tries to tell you too)

Fear also does sweet gak all for them now too. So instead of hitting me on 3's, you need 4's, but I still need 4's too?! Hell, even skeletons get a bonous from fear. The only thing fear does now is let you lose only a handful less than you otherwise would have. Still doesn't make them usefull outside of a 50pts hand-out to re-direct a unit for a turn or two.
If zombies actually kill even an Empire state trooper or an elf spearman, it's cause for celebration! (at least watching zombies vs skinks gives you some giggles as get to watch what amounts to little girls hair-pulling & b-slapping eachother while crying for their mommies!)

Even at 1pt/model zombies would still suck. Why Gav 'whats play-testing' Thorpe ever thought they needed T2 we'll never know. But these guys are just screaming "game's worst unit" right now!

HawaiiMatt wrote:Monster: Daemons of Chaos Daemon Prince. He needs a full 100 points of gifts, and really would like the level 3 option for casting. You just can't get him useful for his cost.

Edit: I had a reading fail and thought you said WoC Daemon Prince! Will leave the post anyway since I went through what's good about that one

Give him MoT and he's a flying monster with thunderstomp and a 4+ ward. Expensive, but not the worst monster in the game by any stretch.

You can give him a decent breath weapon for 20 points.

If you want him to hang back, you can make him a caster and give him 3rd eye of tzeentch.

Really versatile, if pricey... even in the same book, I think there are monsters that are worse. My DP has done better than either my giant or shaggoth, and if you run him cheap he doesn't cost much more (25 more points than a shaggoth with AHW, but has a ward save, the same toughness, and can fly!)

TheBloodGod wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:You all made me look it up. I don't think it's that bad. Certainly not the worst unit in the game.

It's a T4 4 wound model with 4+ armor that moves 8 and ASF with 4 Str 6 and 5 Attacks at WS5.

I ran the battle calculator against Mournfang Cavalry with IF. 1 chariot does about double the MC. With 2 MC (about same cost) win by about 63%. If I add impact hits from chariot against 2 MC the chariot wins by about double.

That's all mathhammer, of course, but those high str attacks with solid WS and crazy speed can do a lot of dmg. Especially on a 8 movement platform.

If you had your entire army made of them they probably wouldn't be so good, however.

Not worst unit in the game.
Worst chariot in the game (when points costs are included at all.)
Your math-hammering does not include the fact that there is a shooting phase or a magic phase.

Who do I want to shoot with my fireball, the 140 point flimsy chariot with 4 wounds or 36 points for 4 wounds of High Elf spearmen?
Including a Lion Chariot in an army is like "Thank you for being my opponent, I've decided to make all of your shooting and magic worth 4x as many points, have a good day!"

Fireball wounds chariot on 4+, chariot saves on 5+.
Fireball wounds elf infantry on 3+, who save on 6+.

12 fireball hits does 6 wounds and 4 failed saves to the lion chariot.
12 fireball hits does 9 wounds and 7.5 failed saves to elf elite infantry (non-phoenix guard).

So, you're choosing between 140 points of chariot killed or 105 to 120 points of infantry.
The problem is, a chariot with 1 wound is still going to do a lot of damage on the charge. Those dead infantry aren't swinging.

Point for point, the chariot is about as good of a target as the elite infantry. If the infantry has a command and magic banner, point for point, shoot the infantry.

I think you're over-estimating the effect of firing upon the chariot.



-Matt

Not only that, but just about everything in the game loses compared to infantry on a pure-points comparison. But most infantry doesn't move 8 and have the same maneuverability.

I mean if you bought simply nothing but Core infantry blocks, it would be the most efficient use of points possible. But you probably wouldn't win much.

Maybe bloodletters and ogres could pull off 50/50.

DukeRustfield wrote:Not only that, but just about everything in the game loses compared to infantry on a pure-points comparison. But most infantry doesn't move 8 and have the same maneuverability.

I mean if you bought simply nothing but Core infantry blocks, it would be the most efficient use of points possible. But you probably wouldn't win much.

Maybe bloodletters and ogres could pull off 50/50.

I win a fair amount of tourneys at 2k and 2.4k with only 110 points spent in rare. none in special. Rest core infantry and a Bloodthirster.

Zombies

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Fireball wounds chariot on 4+, chariot saves on 5+.
Fireball wounds elf infantry on 3+, who save on 6+.

12 fireball hits does 6 wounds and 4 failed saves to the lion chariot.
12 fireball hits does 9 wounds and 7.5 failed saves to elf elite infantry (non-phoenix guard).

So, you're choosing between 140 points of chariot killed or 105 to 120 points of infantry.
The problem is, a chariot with 1 wound is still going to do a lot of damage on the charge. Those dead infantry aren't swinging.
Point for point, the chariot is about as good of a target as the elite infantry. If the infantry has a command and magic banner, point for point, shoot the infantry.
I think you're over-estimating the effect of firing upon the chariot.

Nope. Your math is off. 12 fireball hits does 140 points of damage on a Lion Chariot, 100 points of damage on White Lions/Swordmasters, 60 points on spearmen.
That's a 40% increase in points earned in shooting the lion chariot instead of even elite swordmasters.
That is nowhere near a close choice like your false numbers would make it seem.
Now if it was shooting instead, White Lions only take 60 points of damage when a Lion Chariot takes 140. Most armies will use a mix of shooting and magic missiles.
You can't pretend you're shooting the infantry standard bearer or champion while also pretending that the enemy will only have enough shooting to put 3 wounds on a flimsy lion chariot. It takes far more to take out 12-14 infantry than it does to kill that chariot so that the chariot does 0 damage the whole game.

The problem with Lion Chariots is they're flimsy and expensive. It's like fielding vehicles or monstrous creatures in 40k in a way. If you field just 1 dreadnought alone, it's likely to get destroyed on turn 1 because there's no target saturation. If you were to field 6-12 vehicles, now maybe some survive his first round of shooting.
If you field a normal army with 1 lion chariot, turn 1, enemy should insta-gib the lion chariot with even moderate shooting or magic. Why? Because it's fragile And it's the most expensive 4-wounds around (unless you're fielding some silly griffon prince or something.) This is clearly not beneficial. It makes the enemy shooting/magic more valuable (because it did more points of damage) and it's not extra-tanky so it's not like it worked well as a damage sponge (a player can almost afford 2 tiranoc chariots for the same price which is 8 wounds to be taken down, Lion chariots have a bad ratio of survivability vs. cost.)
Whereas, if someone were to spam Lion Chariots, it'd also be a weak army because they're still great targets to blast dead with shooting/magic and even with the survivors if they get stuck in with anything steadfast of equal cost they're going to lose.

If you're just trying to justify using them for a +1 flank charge bonus or something, that's provided exactly the same by a Tiranoc Chariot which costs only 85 points.
Chariot also has the drawback that it's nowhere near worth its points if the enemy gets a charge on it. It usually just instantly dies when that happens.
The very least they could do would be to give Lion Chariot scythed wheels, even an 85 point chariots for other armies get D6+1 impact hits (in addition to it being a useful T5.)

It's got to be Zombies. Both in absolute terms and for their price (4 points!).