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Who actually buys Zombies when you can raise them for free?

Grey Templar wrote:Who actually buys Zombies when you can raise them for free?

You mean you can raise them for valuable power dice much better spent elsewhere.


I mean, let's say you spend 5 power dice to raise a modest sized Zombie unit and Vanhel's it into a flank. All you've gained is combat resolution for the enemy as they murder tons of zombies even without supporting attacks.

The only conceivable use is to tarpit something with few attacks, like a Hellcannon.

Don't forget you give away 50 victory points every time a summoned zombie unit bites it!

I think when you are looking at the lion chariot you are looking in a vacuum. And it does look poor. However high elves also have access to other things to shift target saturation. A prince on a dragon, Eagle borne heroes. Swordmasters. Teclis unit. Not to mention a wide range of dispel capabilities and augments to make it more effective. I saw 4 lion chariots with a mage on chariot who had pha's and bironas and was using them to excellent effect.

Can you polish a turd? yes you can.

Against skaven or something with few guys with low toughness and such chariots would do quite well like for example HE on HE those impact hits are devastating.

Still super expensive.

TheBloodGod wrote:

Nope. Your math is off. 12 fireball hits does 140 points of damage on a Lion Chariot, 100 points of damage on White Lions/Swordmasters, 60 points on spearmen.
That's a 40% increase in points earned in shooting the lion chariot instead of even elite swordmasters.
That is nowhere near a close choice like your false numbers would make it seem.
Now if it was shooting instead, White Lions only take 60 points of damage when a Lion Chariot takes 140. Most armies will use a mix of shooting and magic missiles.
You can't pretend you're shooting the infantry standard bearer or champion while also pretending that the enemy will only have enough shooting to put 3 wounds on a flimsy lion chariot. It takes far more to take out 12-14 infantry than it does to kill that chariot so that the chariot does 0 damage the whole game.

The problem with Lion Chariots is they're flimsy and expensive.

You are correct, my math is off. You do have to account for overkill and underkill. A wounded chariot still gets it's job done. An over-killed chariot is wounds that would have actually done something.

The issue with high elf chariots is that they don't really need chariots. The infantry hit hard enough and are going first, you don't exactly need D6 impact hits.

As for champs/standards/magic banners, I didn't mean to imply that the fireball was taking out the command. I meant to imply that fireball effectively weakens a more expensive unit, allowing your other units greater ease in finishing them off.
I did over-look the panic effect that comes up with you drop a W4 T4 chariot.

-Matt

Nitros14 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Who actually buys Zombies when you can raise them for free?

You mean you can raise them for valuable power dice much better spent elsewhere.


I mean, let's say you spend 5 power dice to raise a modest sized Zombie unit and Vanhel's it into a flank. All you've gained is combat resolution for the enemy as they murder tons of zombies even without supporting attacks.

The only conceivable use is to tarpit something with few attacks, like a Hellcannon.

Don't forget you give away 50 victory points every time a summoned zombie unit bites it!

Nope, Hellcannon still demolishes those poor zombies because it's also a monster!

Grey Templar: why would I waste 2PD on 'raise dead' to give my opponent 50vp's for 'free' when I can use those same 2PD to cast vanhel's on a unit that can actually kill stuff?! If I need re-directors in a VC army, I've got fell bats & spirit hosts! (who ironically, I can also raise in-game while also killing stuff...)

Zombies are worthless any way you slice them... T2 on a model w/unstable is gak. Hopefully the new book in January gives us back usable deadheads.

Tried hellcannon against zombies yesterday yea zombies went bye bye the cannon was angry.

They do get anoying after a while tho zombies gah.

Well a hellcannon is only killing like 12 zombies maximum and probably less, so if you summon undead horde and throw down 30 zombies with a rank bonus they'll hold it a bit if you waste even more power dice to invocation them.

Nitros14 wrote:Well a hellcannon is only killing like 12 zombies maximum and probably less, so if you summon undead horde and throw down 30 zombies with a rank bonus they'll hold it a bit if you waste even more power dice to invocation them.

But grave guard will just eat that hellcannon to being with?! Considering 99.9% of GG units VC players use hit almost anything on 2's, wound on 2-4's and then get back up again.

Any use for zombies one could possibly think of, we already have better answers for;
- re-directing = dire wolves or fell bats.
- warmachine suppression = vargulf.
- tarpiting = ghouls. (and they will actually kill stuff too!)

No competitive VC list ever uses zombies except as an absolute last resort. The current VC magic phase since 8th ed hit has typically followed; vanhel's + vanhel's + vanhel's + vanhel's = win! (throw in a wind of undead and the odd summon horde on the grave guard as required)


Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see zombies become usable again! I'm honestly hoping the new book in January brings the deadheads back upto either T3 and 5+ or 6+ regen, or else T4.
But then, 8th ed itself also broke undead by not allowing them to tarpit gak-all anymore... (too many incoming attacks on sub-par troops + unstable means our 'tarpits' disappear as fast as a fat kid at the mention of gym class!)

Erm, why would a vargulf be used to suppress warmachines?
Far too slow.

Jackal wrote:Erm, why would a vargulf be used to suppress warmachines?
Far too slow.

You mean M8/march 16" + swiftstride AND the ability to make fell bats march as well isn't a good warmachine hunter?! (not to mention his hating everything and thunderstomping missile units...)

Doesn't the Vargulf have fly?

No it doesn't. It's a footslogger. M6, but Vampire so it can march.

curran12 wrote:No it doesn't. It's a footslogger. M6, but Vampire so it can march.

Which is really lame, because it has at least vestigial wings...if that's enough for a fat@$$ Jabberslythe to be able to fly, why not a powerful vampire?

curran12 wrote:No it doesn't. It's a footslogger. M6, but Vampire so it can march.

It's actually M8

Avatar 720 wrote:

curran12 wrote:No it doesn't. It's a footslogger. M6, but Vampire so it can march.

It's actually M8

>.>
<.<

I said 8! Clearly!

Bought Zombies do suck, but I cant agree with the Worst unit "award" since it is possible for them to be very useful/vital, even if that use is just re-direction/screening/lone warmachines (admittedly Vargulfs are much better at the latter)

Sure Bretonnian MaA are pretty pants...

japehlio wrote:Bought Zombies do suck, but I cant agree with the Worst unit "award" since it is possible for them to be very useful/vital, even if that use is just re-direction/screening/lone warmachines (admittedly Vargulfs are much better at the latter)

Sure Bretonnian MaA are pretty pants...

Power dice are at a real premium these days. If you're trying to raise zombies in order to re-direct for example, odds are your opponent will attempt to dispel it.
Besides, why raise a zombies and give your opponet a 'free' 50vp's when you can just vanhel's instead? (seriously, this spell is one of the only things actually saving the VC's as a palyable army right now!)

And I'm pretty sure MaA's would slaughter zombies... Plus, while they're a bit costly for what you get, the MaA's can reliably tarpit an enemy unit thanks to steadfast + Ld re-rolls from the BSB. Or they can act as an anvil to a knightly charge against all but the most killy deathstars. (anything w/S4 or less they work decently well again)

Slayers are pretty bad in 8th they could kick @$$ in 7th but since charges dont affect who attacks first they are a waste of points.

green_oni wrote:Slayers are pretty bad in 8th they could kick @$$ in 7th but since charges dont affect who attacks first they are a waste of points.

I'm not sure if you're making a joke or not? I2 isn't a death sentance untill you're down to your last couple of ranks.
Slayers also get great weapons which are the best infantry weapon in the game right now, and with I2, it makes their great weapons that much better anyways! (because you're not losing initiative in the same way most other units actually do!) Slayers are also unbreakable last I checked, which means they will at least hold up something nasty for a turn or two, while also dealing decent damage in return.

Yes, anything slayers can do, basic dwarf warriors can do just as well with 8th's additional bonuses of steadfast + BSB re-rolls.
However, I daresay that Zombies are infinitely worse than slayers! (100pts of most anything will likely kill at least 200pts worth of zombies without breaking much of a sweat!)