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So as not to derail the other thread...
how exactly are the IG overpowered? the AV 12 BS3 fliers? The T3 Armour 5+ range 12" meltavets? Stop me if you've started pissing yourself yet.

It is posible to put together a very strong list with the IG codex...
Not OP but still very strong.

Not OP, just very competitive and versatile.

Those melta vets that are scoring and cost very little? The fairly durable hulls (AV12>>AV11) they sit inside? The free orders that TL those meltas when you need them most? The cheap Manticore and hydra, which combine to form a hugely powerful HS slot? The cheap as chips scouting fast skimmer with 3 TL LC?

Then you gtet the other side of broken - terrible internal balance. Ogryn? Useless, 99% of the time. Stormies? Ditto. LR? Why bother, a manticore does it better, and 4 shots really isnt a meaningful limitation.

Have a search, and understand the topic a bit more before posting threads. "Leafblower" is a term you shoudl look at as well.

As an IG player, it would be somewhat hippocritical if I did not answer this truthfully as much as I hammer on some other armies.

Individually, very few units are overpowered. Primarily the Vendetta. Marbo can be abusive, and the Hydra (while fine against most opponents) can be *very* abusive against some armies (lol DE).

However, collectively, the sheer amount of stuff, particularly armor, that IG can field is overwhelming for many armies. It's not by any means impossible to field nearly 17 independent AV12 vehicles and 80 infantry in a 2000pt game. Some armies can't deal with those numbers.

That said, it's difficult to see IG as the worst offenders of this edition. Up there? Sure. But they have lots of key weaknesses or gaps that other 5E books don't (psychic defense, "take test or remove from table abilities", anything rending, close combat in general, etc)

However, the bigger thing is that the tools and methods one uses to defeat a powerful IG army don't work well against the more popular armies, and what works well defeating them is often detrimental against IG (IG don't care about your massively powerful lightning claw wielding CC unit, far cheaper units will kill our infantry just fine, and you'll need powerfists to do anything to the tanks). This fact frustrates many people. Individually, IG units are very easily destroyed. A basic space marine is a lethal threat to every single model in an IG army. However, there is a volume that is difficult to properly account for and quality of power is often wasted overkill against an Imperial Guard army.

nosferatu1001 wrote: "Leafblower" is a term you shoudl look at as well.

I wish this term would die. I hate BOLS so much for that stupid name that gets applied to anything with a chimera.

You can have 9 Av14 tanks in an army, along with 9 AV12 skimmers that have scout. And a transport capacity.

And 6 AV12 transports. 8 if you count the HQ.

Meaning that you could have a total of 26 vehicles in a perfectly legal army.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:You can have 9 Av14 tanks in an army, along with 9 AV12 skimmers that have scout. And a transport capacity.

And 6 AV12 transports. 8 if you count the HQ.

Meaning that you could have a total of 26 vehicles in a perfectly legal army.

Joey wrote:So as not to derail the other thread...
how exactly are the IG OP? the AV 12 BS3 fliers? The T3 Armour 5+ range 12" meltavets? Stop me if you've started pissing yourself yet.

Let's start with your "AV 12 BS3 Flier"

Are you referring to the one that has 3 Twin linked Lascannons on it? The one that is also a fast Skimmer, and comes 1-3 a Squad? that has Scout and Extra armor. I think this is the same one hat can even drop Melta Vets off it. And it's points cost is CHEAP.

You've also got these fantastic things called Hydras, that completely destroy Skimmers. These Fancy things have 2 Sets of twinlinked 72' Autocanons, that Ignore flat out cover saves for skimmers. These also can come 1-3 per slot. And they are cheap.

Then you've got the Manticore, everyone's favorite. With it's storm eagle rockets, and entire board range, it makes a mockery of everything.

There is also the Chimera, which has a front AV of 12, and come standard with a Multi-laser and a heavy bolter, for only ten points more than a Razorback.

And that's just the tip of the iceburg.

Vaktathi wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:You can have 9 Av14 tanks in an army, along with 9 AV12 skimmers that have scout. And a transport capacity.

And 6 AV12 transports. 8 if you count the HQ.

Meaning that you could have a total of 26 vehicles in a perfectly legal army.

Two things, First, you can fit more actually, 59 tanks (lololololol platoons), Second, if you're talking about 9 AV14 tanks with 9 skimmers and whatnot in one army, you're talking about 3/4/5000pt armies or higher.

So other than hyrda and vendetta, both of which cost £40 to buy.
And spamming chimeras is just cowardice. I don't want to play like that, and i wouldn't want to play against anyone who did.
The manticore is AP4 (useless against MEQ) and armour 12/10/10. At more points than a Leman Russ I would NEVER take one.

Joey wrote:So other than hyrda and vendetta, both of which cost £40 to buy.
And spamming chimeras is just cowardice. I don't want to play like that, and i wouldn't want to play against anyone who did.
The manticore is AP4 (useless against MEQ) and armour 12/10/10. At more points than a Leman Russ I would NEVER take one.

Trolling or just noob?
I suppose you take large amounts of marines and just march them across the board? It's the honorable thing to do, after all.

AP4 is competently irrelevant against tanks. Also, the manticore will still kill almost 1/3 of the marines under it's D3 LARGE BLASTS. Anywhere on the board. Please, let me know how you're intending to shoot through the wall it's sitting behind.

Also, the Manticore is exactly 10 points more expensive than the Regular Leman Russ. That's just the Leman Russ with no sponsons, so only a heavy bolter and battle cannon. The Manticore will on average be cheaper than a Leman.

Joey wrote:So other than hyrda and vendetta, both of which cost £40 to buy.
And spamming chimeras is just cowardice. I don't want to play like that, and i wouldn't want to play against anyone who did.
The manticore is AP4 (useless against MEQ) and armour 12/10/10. At more points than a Leman Russ I would NEVER take one.

All GW products are pricey. £40 is only the price if you can't be bothered to convert them.
So Chimera are so OP that using them is "cowardice"? I guess I'll never take a competitive unit again.
The Manticore drops up to 3 S10 pie plates in one turn anywhere on the board. That's extremely powerful.

So other than hyrda and vendetta, both of which cost £40 to buy.

The price for the Models is completely irrelevant.

And spamming chimeras is just cowardice. I don't want to play like that, and i wouldn't want to play against anyone who did.

One Again though, completely irrelevant. For the Tournament scene, you don't get a choice who you play against.

The manticore is AP4 (useless against MEQ) and armour 12/10/10. At more points than a Leman Russ I would NEVER take one.

If your only view is that the Manticore is useless against MEQs, therefore that it's completely useless, then you really need to take a look at your tactics. The Manticore is one of the best vehicles in the game, and has a massive amount of uses.

What your post boils down to, is that you don't spam some of the stronger options on your codex.

The Fact of the matter is though, that those options are still there though and many many players max their builds on these things.

So you have no idea what a competitive list looks like and actively dismiss the component elements of it, no understanding of what makes Manticores good or how to kill Marines and apparently think cost is an object.

You probably aren't qualified to comment.

For the love of god, don't even get me started on psyker battle squads.

Boom, leadership 1.

Do 1 wound from a barrage weapon.

HAVE FUN PASSING THAT LEADERSHIP TEST LOLOLOLOL

There's a couple things I'd like to address here. Yes there are some very valid points, but at the same time methinks some people are overlooking things and overconcentrating on others.

Yes the vendetta is broken we all know this, however it's difficult to argue the same about the basic Valkyrie, and squadroning those things is immensely punitive (not to mention makes EA pointless).

With regards to Hydras, yeah, against Light skimmers relying on moving fast for defense it's brutal, that's exactly what it was designed to be good against. Against AV12 skimmers they aren't much better than anything else really unless again, the skimmer is relying on a flat out cover save for survival (in which case the AV12 still helps a lot). They're good, but they don't "completely destroy" anything in a medium tank range just because it's a skimmer. They've also got poor firepower mobility and vulnerable flanks.

And Yup, they're cheap, like every other autocannon platform in the game. You'll notice the other two big ones are both SM units with higher BS, and either better armor/more weapon options (predator) or dreads that have better accuracy, mobility, a combat ability (rifleman dreads are wonderful tarpits) and can take pods. lets not get into Psyrifleman dreads which are as bad as Vendettas.

As to the Manticore, much of the IG HS section can hit anything on the board, nothing unique there, it's also got a rather noticeable minimum range (if you're halfway up the board, you're safe!), has a high chance to whiff entirely, and is done after game turn 4. It's also lacking that magical AP3. It's a great tank killer, but given the relative inaccuracy of ordnance barrage weapons and it's random shot number, it's not the "zomg greatest" tank destroyer ever either. Dawn of War deployment effectively neutralizes it for that all important first turn as well (can't fire ordnance barrage if you moved), so 1/3rd of games it's significantly less effective. It's good, but not broken. People see D3 S10 and forget that means 1-3, and that as an ordnance barrage weapon, it whiffs a lot, has limited fire and is often left somewhat gimped in dawn of war deployments.

On to the Chimera. It has side AV10 and only a rear hatch (meaning to disembark infantry into a strike position if they need to, it needs to show its one good armor facing directly away from an opponent, as a CSM player that side armor on rhino/rbacks is incredibly useful), is BS3 and has no twin linked weapons or anything with a decent AP, and carries dudes with cardboard for armor and whose basic gun is about as threatening as a wet noodle.

Nobody seemed to care that the Chimera was front AV12 with two heavy weapons until this codex when it went from awful to useable

Vets honestly aren't too bad, certainly next to stuff like Grey Hunters, INQ Henchmen (even more min maxable) and GK troops it's hard to see them as broken, especially if not paired with a chimera as they evaporate if on foot and are relegated to suicide squad status if in a valk.

I'm surprised nobody else mentioned Marbo yet (unless I missed it). That guy is hit or miss, but when he's useful, he's obscenely useful.

People just hatin on a dex that isn't marines. Thats all.

Well.... and the Vend are a bit (alot) on the inexpensive side.

Some also hate that their army of super bad ass close combat bad asses with the swords/fists of doom get this:

"Well.... you hit me on a 3+.. and you wound me on a 2+... or with your standard marine over there its a 3+. How much did you pay for the powerfist again?oh? no armour save. Dang. I use my 5+ save all the time against bolters. Whats changed again?"

Followed by:

"Did I mention I'm stubborn Ld 9 with a reroll (and a dead guardsman)"

Grey Knight force weapons kill us in 1 wound. Just like everything else. Really. who else has more then 1 wound in our army other then the Company commander, special characters, and some stupid elite choices?

Chimeras > rhinos (course then again piling a regular squad out of a chimera usually creates a scene similar to Omaha beach during D-Day)

Joey wrote:So other than hyrda and vendetta, both of which cost £40 to buy.
And spamming chimeras is just cowardice. I don't want to play like that, and i wouldn't want to play against anyone who did.
The manticore is AP4 (useless against MEQ) and armour 12/10/10. At more points than a Leman Russ I would NEVER take one.

It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

chimeras are supposed to be better than rhinos though.
And as I suspected, unless you're playing in a tournament or have some massive pent up unreleased frustrated sex drive (as a lot of people on these forums do), IG are NOT over-powered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JB_Man wrote:

It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

I'll say this AGAIN for people who confuse meltavets with assault terminators.
Their effective range is 12 inches. They are toughness 3. Their save is 5+. They are leadership 8. If you have difficulty killing them/making them flee, you're probably a piss poor commander.

Joey wrote:chimeras are supposed to be better than rhinos though.
And as I suspected, unless you're playing in a tournament or have some massive pent up unreleased frustrated sex drive (as a lot of people on these forums do), IG are NOT over-powered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JB_Man wrote:

It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

I'll say this AGAIN for people who confuse meltavets with assault terminators.
Their effective range is 12 inches. They are toughness 3. Their save is 5+. They are leadership 8. If you have difficulty killing them/making them flee, you're probably a piss poor commander.

No one confuses meltavets for terminators...
Meltavets are 100 points and BS4. They are used to break enemy behicles. They are very good at it. They are also very cheap.

Joey wrote:chimeras are supposed to be better than rhinos though.
And as I suspected, unless you're playing in a tournament or have some massive pent up unreleased frustrated sex drive (as a lot of people on these forums do), IG are NOT over-powered.

Wow, if you want to stay in complete blissful ignorance, then don't start threads to waste peoples time.

Several members (Vakathi in particular) have presented, well thought and reasoned explanations why the IG is at the top of the heap. You are just choosing to ignore them, and remain completely ignorant.

JB_Man wrote:
It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

Huh?

10 Space marines split into 2 squads w/ a ML and a Flamer VS a 10 man Vet Squad with 3 melta guns and a chimera (160pts vs 155 pts) = SMs win. Really. A 'Naked" SM squad doesn't have to exist unless you WANT to NOT use you FREE weapon upgrades.

A LR VS 5 Chimeras. Not even able to do this one. LR wins. A Chimera has at most a S6 gun. While an AV14 tank is a beast. An AV12/10/10 tank can get fethed up by bolters into the side. Or frag grenades.

Sasori wrote:

Wow, if you want to stay in complete blissful ignorance, then don't start threads to waste peoples time.

Several members (Vakathi in particular) have presented, well thought and reasoned explanations why the IG is at the top of the heap. You are just choosing to ignore them, and remain completely ignorant.

ad hom.
QED.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Comrade wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

Huh?

10 Space marines split into 2 squads w/ a ML and a Flamer VS a 10 man Vet Squad with 3 melta guns and a chimera (160pts vs 155 pts) = SMs win. Really. A 'Naked" SM squad doesn't have to exist unless you WANT to NOT use you FREE weapon upgrades.

A LR VS 5 Chimeras. Not even able to do this one. LR wins. A Chimera has at most a S6 gun. While an AV14 tank is a beast. An AV12/10/10 tank can get fethed up by bolters into the side. Or frag grenades.

Yeah, unupgraded space marines will also rip through melta-vets. 9 bolter shots, 6 hit, 4 wound. That's enough for a morale check at -1.
As I said earlier, sounds to me like people don't know basic tactics. That unit melts vehicles at 12" range? Then make sure your vehicles stay the hell away from it.

Comrade wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

Huh?

10 Space marines split into 2 squads w/ a ML and a Flamer VS a 10 man Vet Squad with 3 melta guns and a chimera (160pts vs 155 pts) = SMs win. Really. A 'Naked" SM squad doesn't have to exist unless you WANT to NOT use you FREE weapon upgrades.

A LR VS 5 Chimeras. Not even able to do this one. LR wins. A Chimera has at most a S6 gun. While an AV14 tank is a beast. An AV12/10/10 tank can get fethed up by bolters into the side. Or frag grenades.

Please don't be purposefully stupid. Nobody is saying that 5 chimeras will beat a land raider.

However, 2 chimeras full of melta vets will ANNIHILATE a land raider, and do a darn good job of killing everything inside of it.

The fact is that guard lists can be among the most overpowered in the game, and unless your playing blood angels, space wolves, or grey knights, you really don't stand a chance against a well-built guard list.

Joey wrote:So other than hyrda and vendetta, both of which cost £40 to buy.
And spamming chimeras is just cowardice. I don't want to play like that, and i wouldn't want to play against anyone who did.
The manticore is AP4 (useless against MEQ) and armour 12/10/10. At more points than a Leman Russ I would NEVER take one.

What YOU would or would not play/buy. Means nothing in this case, as you ask in you OP why is IG though of as overpowered.

Joey wrote:
As I said earlier, sounds to me like people don't know basic tactics. That unit melts vehicles at 12" range? Then make sure your vehicles stay the hell away from it.

Again, do not be ignorant for the sake of trying to win your argument. Chimeras don't melt units at a 12" range, they melt units at a 20" range (12" move, 2" disembark, 6" melta shot). Given that a good guard army will have 3-4 melta chimeras in it, that means there is no approach you can take towards them that will avoid being melta'd to death.

This leaves you with 2 choices... shoot the guard (not a winning option) or eat melta shots as you try to get past them.

Both options kinda suck.

Joey wrote:chimeras are supposed to be better than rhinos though.
And as I suspected, unless you're playing in a tournament or have some massive pent up unreleased frustrated sex drive (as a lot of people on these forums do), IG are NOT over-powered.

I do, however that's off topic.

Most the 5th edition IoM codexes are overpowered compared to most of the Xenian codexes (that had been changing with release of the DEldar and possibly the Newcrons.

The reasons are simple: IoM armies tend to have an excellent variety of equipment, units, special rules, and characters, with a good balance across the different FOC slots. Things are generally quite cheap compared to 3rd and 4th edition codexes.

Horst wrote:
Again, do not be ignorant for the sake of trying to win your argument. Chimeras don't melt units at a 12" range, they melt units at a 20" range (12" move, 2" disembark, 6" melta shot). Given that a good guard army will have 3-4 melta chimeras in it, that means there is no approach you can take towards them that will avoid being melta'd to death.

This leaves you with 2 choices... shoot the guard (not a winning option) or eat melta shots as you try to get past them.

Both options kinda suck.

You have difficulty destroying transports with side armour 10? aw bless (:

Horst wrote:

Comrade wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

Huh?

10 Space marines split into 2 squads w/ a ML and a Flamer VS a 10 man Vet Squad with 3 melta guns and a chimera (160pts vs 155 pts) = SMs win. Really. A 'Naked" SM squad doesn't have to exist unless you WANT to NOT use you FREE weapon upgrades.

A LR VS 5 Chimeras. Not even able to do this one. LR wins. A Chimera has at most a S6 gun. While an AV14 tank is a beast. An AV12/10/10 tank can get fethed up by bolters into the side. Or frag grenades.

Please don't be purposefully stupid. Nobody is saying that 5 chimeras will beat a land raider.

However, 2 chimeras full of melta vets will ANNIHILATE a land raider, and do a darn good job of killing everything inside of it.

The fact is that guard lists can be among the most overpowered in the game, and unless your playing blood angels, space wolves, or grey knights, you really don't stand a chance against a well-built guard list.

Dedicated anti-tank units will destroy a tank? SURELY SHOME JOKE.
I hear tankbustas also wreck vehicles, point?
If you can't destroy two chimeras with your land raider, that's YOUR fault.

Joey wrote:

Horst wrote:
Again, do not be ignorant for the sake of trying to win your argument. Chimeras don't melt units at a 12" range, they melt units at a 20" range (12" move, 2" disembark, 6" melta shot). Given that a good guard army will have 3-4 melta chimeras in it, that means there is no approach you can take towards them that will avoid being melta'd to death.

This leaves you with 2 choices... shoot the guard (not a winning option) or eat melta shots as you try to get past them.

Both options kinda suck.

You have difficulty destroying transports with side armour 10? aw bless (:

In theoryhammer land, it's easy to do.
If you're never presented with a side armor 10 shot, its pretty hard to do.
And when there's 3-4 of them, it's harder.
And on a board where your movement is limited (gee, that's all of them) it's harder.

Joey wrote:

Horst wrote:
Again, do not be ignorant for the sake of trying to win your argument. Chimeras don't melt units at a 12" range, they melt units at a 20" range (12" move, 2" disembark, 6" melta shot). Given that a good guard army will have 3-4 melta chimeras in it, that means there is no approach you can take towards them that will avoid being melta'd to death.

This leaves you with 2 choices... shoot the guard (not a winning option) or eat melta shots as you try to get past them.

Both options kinda suck.

You have difficulty destroying transports with side armour 10? aw bless (:

Horst wrote:

Comrade wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

Huh?

10 Space marines split into 2 squads w/ a ML and a Flamer VS a 10 man Vet Squad with 3 melta guns and a chimera (160pts vs 155 pts) = SMs win. Really. A 'Naked" SM squad doesn't have to exist unless you WANT to NOT use you FREE weapon upgrades.

A LR VS 5 Chimeras. Not even able to do this one. LR wins. A Chimera has at most a S6 gun. While an AV14 tank is a beast. An AV12/10/10 tank can get fethed up by bolters into the side. Or frag grenades.

Please don't be purposefully stupid. Nobody is saying that 5 chimeras will beat a land raider.

However, 2 chimeras full of melta vets will ANNIHILATE a land raider, and do a darn good job of killing everything inside of it.

The fact is that guard lists can be among the most overpowered in the game, and unless your playing blood angels, space wolves, or grey knights, you really don't stand a chance against a well-built guard list.

Dedicated anti-tank units will destroy a tank? SURELY SHOME JOKE.
I hear tankbustas also wreck vehicles, point?
If you can't destroy two chimeras with your land raider, that's YOUR fault.

Once again, I can only assume your being ignorant on purpose, because nobody is truly this in the dark when it comes to the game.

Chimeras have armor 12. Saying things like "They have armor 10 on the side!" means less than nothing to me, because if you take enough chimeras, you just make a wall of armor 12, and you have no shots to the sides available. If you are an extremely FAST vehicle, then yes, you can get side shots. Alas, land raiders are not. Hell, I've known guard players to anchor chimera lines with hellhounds because of the AV12 side, so there is NO WAY to get a side armor shot on them.

Lets see how likely it is to kill a chimera with a land raider, shall we?

87% chance to hit the vehicle. 50% chance to penetrate. 33% chance to destroy. That totals out to be a 14% chance to destroy a chimera.

If we assume your goal is to immobilize the chimera, our odds go up to a 19% chance to cripple it. That means we need FIVE SHOTS to stop a chimera on average... if you smoke, we need TEN. We aren't stopping one chimera before it can fire, let alone 2.