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IG are only overpowered if you have more money than God. Realistically, no-one who needs to pay the rent and eat will be able to field 9 Manticores or Leman Russes in a 2000pt game... maybe if you've been building your IG army up for over a decade, you'll have that many tanks around (but why would you have 9 Russes? You haven't been able to put more than 3 on the table until very recently). If money is no option, then you can field the 9D3 large blast template per-turn armies that end up being OP.

If you have other expenses apart from little toy soldiers, you might find your IG experience is significantly less than OP...

Comrade wrote:
I've been killing marines with IG since 1998. What do you mean fight?

He means vanilla marines struggle, but SW/BA et al find it easier to beat IG.

Joey wrote:

Comrade wrote:
I've been killing marines with IG since 1998. What do you mean fight?

He means vanilla marines struggle, but SW/BA et al find it easier to beat IG.

SW and BA are both top tier codeci...

Not to jump on the angry wagon here, but it seems like the OP has becomed stuck in his train of thougth. Yes IG CAN be built to wreak anything that the opponet fields, and yes some builds are rather nasty, but no singel unit in the codex is insanly OP.
So I suggest you make a army list that YOu consider competative and post it, and with some explenations of your tactics.

Competing with Russes would matter if Russes weren't pretty bad.

squidhills, it's really not hard or expensive to build solid mech Guard. Working out my current 1750 list in cash it's something like £500 all in at GW RRP; take discount out of that and you're looking at anywhere from £350-450. Single adults or DINKs can easily afford that if they want to with appropriate budgeting.

Trondheim wrote:Not to jump on the angry wagon here, but it seems like the OP has becomed stuck in his train of thougth. Yes IG CAN be built to wreak anything that the opponet fields, and yes some builds are rather nasty, but no singel unit in the codex is insanly OP.
So I suggest you make a army list that YOu consider competative and post it, and with some explenations of your tactics.

I'm playing exclusively against Descent of Angels atm, which frankly makes a piss-take of warhammer itself, completely changing the dynamic of the game.
veterans with special weapons are out of the question entirely, as it's £7.50 for the two of them. That'd be an extra 40 quid for four veteran squads. I think I'll stick to blobs for the time being...

Holy ! That's brilliant! We're all royally screwed with this new amazing idea! I guess its time to pack in my IG and pick up a new army. I hear Tau are a super OP codex because they have super awesome guns and a cool anime flair.

As a current Tau player... You have wounded me sir with your sarcasm krak missile...

Strength 8...

My pride...

*Dies from Instant Death*



But as a Guard Player, yes, I agree with the majority. The Guard codex is undercosted in alot of places and can lead to some powerful lists (I'm going to omit 'unbeatable') because of it.

Though the squadron rules in the BRB provide some relief playing against them, its not enough. Chimeras, Vendettas, Hydras (to a point), Leman Russ Variants, Manticores (even though a loathe them), and maybe Psyker Battle Squads are undercosted for their potential strengths (especially those stupid planes).

I'd trade all that crap in for cheaper Rough Riders, Ogryns, Storm Troopers, and worthwhile artillery that can actually fire indirectly from a reasonably spot. (I mean 12" Blind Spot for the Death Strike Missile? Wth! Give the Colossus and Basilisk some love! 24" and 36" blindspots suck!)

I loved the old Codex alot more to be honest.

Corrode wrote:Competing with Russes would matter if Russes weren't pretty bad.

squidhills, it's really not hard or expensive to build solid mech Guard. Working out my current 1750 list in cash it's something like £500 all in at GW RRP; take discount out of that and you're looking at anywhere from £350-450. Single adults or DINKs can easily afford that if they want to with appropriate budgeting.

hmm... I fail to see how Russes are bad. Russes are my armies bread and butter AV 14/13 with a Battle cannon and a LC for 165pts is beautiful glory combined with massed infantry and commissars.

I field 3 of them all the time, and they do well enough for me. Of course trying to combine them is just stupid.

Hydras are KPs waiting to happen.

Joey, do you believe Fire Warriors to be OP, UP or balanced?

TrollPie wrote:Joey, do you believe Fire Warriors to be OP, UP or balanced?

balanced to what?

Horst wrote:Melta vets in chimeras aren't the ONLY reason guard is OP... they are just one of the better examples.

Let me list all the broken abilities guard has -

1) Psyker squads. Instant leadership -9 is broken, don't even pretend it isn't.

Assuming they have some way to take advantage of that leadership modifier, it's requiring at least two units to cause it to break, and then that doesn't assure the units destruction either. Not much different than using two units to actually destroy said target instead.

2) vet squads w/ special weapons in chimeras WAY too cheap... deliver as much firepower as marine squads at close range for 100 points less in a more durable transport.

They don't deliver the same firepower. They might deliver the same special weapon firepower, but that's it. They don't have the same capability to engage non-vehicle units (lol lasguns vs Bolters), zero CC capability and no highly threatening hidden S8 powerfist, and have nowhere near the durability in any imaginable manner. The transport is also only more durable from the front, not from the sides (not as big an issue if it's sitting in the back, but if it's got to move up or drop off troops...), has no side hatches (very useful if you've ever used a Rhino) and the heavy weapons aren't providing long range highly accurate AT like they do on a Razorback.

3) Vendettas are CRAZY OP. For 35 points CHEAPER than a predator annihilator, you get 3 TL lascannons (compensating for lower BS), 12 armor all around, fast, outflanking, squadrons, and transport capabilities. WTF?

Yup, though that said, every codex has a unit like this. Vulkan and TH/SS termi's for C:SM, GH's/Rune Priests and Long Fangs for SW's, etc.

Again however, people keep listing squadrons as a plus. It's very apparent few people have read the squadron rules or tried to run squadroned vehicles, especially any that aren't cheap AV10 disposable units like speeders or war walkers.

4) Hydras are undercosted as all hell. For 50 points less than a rifleman dread, you get longer range and ignoring cover saves, at the cost of 11% accuracy. Sure, your side armor is lower... but again, it doesn't usually matter unless you get in close, and you can't do that because of the chimeras with vets screening them.

Lower side armor, less accurate, can't move and fire to full effect, no ability to engage or defend itself in CC, can't take a pod, has almost no other weapon options unlike the dread. The dread is a much more versatile platform and pays for it, it's not a mono-role skimmer hunter.

Corrode wrote:Eldar vehicles cost 120ish points with AV12, Chimeras cost 55, Hydras 75. There's a slight difference in how many are on the table.

Lets be fair here, Eldar vehicles were designed under the 4E rules. Do you remember Eldar under 4E rules? In the 20 or so months of 4E with the 2006 Eldar codex, playing 2-3 games a week many against a regular Eldar opponent, I can count the number of times I killed an Eldar tank on two hands, and the number of times I killed a Falcon/Fire Prism on one.

Tau suffer from much the same issue. They were definitely a power army under 4E, and were worth every point spent aside from Vespid and whatnot. The differnces in the armies must take this into account, as comparisons between these armies aren't entirely accurate.

TrollPie wrote:Joey, do you believe Fire Warriors to be OP, UP or balanced?

The correct answer is that they are over priced.

Joey wrote:

TrollPie wrote:Joey, do you believe Fire Warriors to be OP, UP or balanced?

balanced to what?

Balanced compared with any useful (but not overly so) unit from a 5th Editiom, a.k.a. they're fairly costed for what they do, they aren't OP or UP.

Joey wrote:I'm playing exclusively against Descent of Angels atm, which frankly makes a piss-take of warhammer itself, completely changing the dynamic of the game.

So you're saying that against one of the worst match ups for IG (from what I've read) IG has a hard time... so they're not overpowered/extremely strong. How about some perspective?

veterans with special weapons are out of the question entirely, as it's £7.50 for the two of them. That'd be an extra 40 quid for four veteran squads. I think I'll stick to blobs for the time being...

Yeah, because there's no cheap way to convert them. At all.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, because there's no cheap way to convert them. At all.

Not everyone has been part of an online community for years. I'm a consumer, with feth all money. Please enlighten me as to how to convert hydras.

I don't see IG as overpowered, they are simply so good at forming gunlines, they can blow away a sizable chunk of you army, or concentrate their firepower to bring down whatever omgwtfbbq unit you thought was going to win you the game.

At 2000pts and IG get first turn. Say they blow away about 300 points worth of stuff. That means, that before you even get too move your men, your fighting with 1700 pts against 2000.

Joey wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, because there's no cheap way to convert them. At all.

Not everyone has been part of an online community for years. I'm a consumer, with feth all money. Please enlighten me as to how to convert hydras.

He was refering to veterans.
For Hydras, you can stick one of the Quad-Autocannon turrets from the Imperial Strongpoint kit on a Chimera, or strap a few autocannons to a Chimera turret.

Joey wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, because there's no cheap way to convert them. At all.

Not everyone has been part of an online community for years. I'm a consumer, with feth all money. Please enlighten me as to how to convert hydras.

First of all, that quote is in response to meltaguns, not Hydras. Secondly, search dakka. There's a bunch of people that have posted different ways to do it. And, given the Chimera hulls (i think?) Hydras aren't too hard to build.

Vaktathi wrote:Marbo's ability to basically just appear anywhere and toss an ordnance blast is what's so powerful.

Vaktathi wrote:but then Marbo comes on, tosses his demo charge,

Vaktathi wrote:He also makes a great punchline, tossing a demo charge at a bunched up disembarked unit and annihilating it.

Vaktathi wrote: of his demo charge

Wait, what? My friend has never even mentioned something called a "demo charge."

Tangent wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Marbo's ability to basically just appear anywhere and toss an ordnance blast is what's so powerful.

Vaktathi wrote:but then Marbo comes on, tosses his demo charge,

Vaktathi wrote:He also makes a great punchline, tossing a demo charge at a bunched up disembarked unit and annihilating it.

Vaktathi wrote: of his demo charge

Wait, what? My friend has never even mentioned something called a "demo charge."

Really? Your friend forgot about his S8 AP2 pie plate?

Tangent wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Marbo's ability to basically just appear anywhere and toss an ordnance blast is what's so powerful.

Vaktathi wrote:but then Marbo comes on, tosses his demo charge,

Vaktathi wrote:He also makes a great punchline, tossing a demo charge at a bunched up disembarked unit and annihilating it.

Vaktathi wrote: of his demo charge

Wait, what? My friend has never even mentioned something called a "demo charge."

Marbo is equipped with a demo charge...
It's fairly powerful IIRC but one use...

Tangent wrote:
Wait, what? My friend has never even mentioned something called a "demo charge."

Yeah, he's got a Demo Charge, a one use, 6" range S8 AP2 Large (5") Blast Assault 1 weapon. That's his primary purpose is to deliver that. With BS5, he rarely misses.

Ninja'd, Purple

Edit: And Vak

Now you know why his marbo is useless, lol.

Triple ninja'd. What the hell you been eating Purple?

Wow, this... changes everything. Nuts.

I'm a ninja-ry ninja... raised by peas though...

He just kept trying to shoot stuff with his ripper pistol.

There's your problem.

Never leave home without your demo charge.

marbo with no demo charge? Thats like a Space Marine with a lasgun and flak armour

Soladrin wrote:Now you know why his marbo is useless, lol.

Triple ninja'd. What the hell you been eating Purple?

Tequila, milk and mars bars...