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purplefood wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Now you know why his marbo is useless, lol.

Triple ninja'd. What the hell you been eating Purple?

Tequila, milk and mars bars...

I must try this combination. Is the tequila mixed with the milk?

Corrode wrote:Competing with Russes would matter if Russes weren't pretty bad.

squidhills, it's really not hard or expensive to build solid mech Guard. Working out my current 1750 list in cash it's something like £500 all in at GW RRP; take discount out of that and you're looking at anywhere from £350-450. Single adults or DINKs can easily afford that if they want to with appropriate budgeting.

You clearly have more disposable income than 80% of my friends. It takes me 5 years on average to get an army up and running. Typically a weekend before they release a new codex invalidating my old army list...

Blacksails wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Now you know why his marbo is useless, lol.

Triple ninja'd. What the hell you been eating Purple?

Tequila, milk and mars bars...

I must try this combination. Is the tequila mixed with the milk?

Give me a second and we'll find out...

purplefood wrote:

Blacksails wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Now you know why his marbo is useless, lol.

Triple ninja'd. What the hell you been eating Purple?

Tequila, milk and mars bars...

I must try this combination. Is the tequila mixed with the milk?

Give me a second and we'll find out...

Well I guess it will be soon.

Tequila mixed with milk.... egh.... that just makes my stomach churn.

can't be worse than lager.

Okay boys.
Just tried it.
I proclaim the White Mexican a complete success and a rather tasty one at that...
Though an important note: Do not add tobasco. #1 Experiment failed abysmally due to this.

pics or didn't happen.

Joey wrote:
The "arguments" put forward here remind me of the "arguments" religionists put forward. i.e., there is one absolute truth that is, in some curious way, unquantifiable.
Or are people in the internet incapable of being rational.
Possibly both.

Smell that? That's irony.

squidhills wrote:

Corrode wrote:Competing with Russes would matter if Russes weren't pretty bad.

squidhills, it's really not hard or expensive to build solid mech Guard. Working out my current 1750 list in cash it's something like £500 all in at GW RRP; take discount out of that and you're looking at anywhere from £350-450. Single adults or DINKs can easily afford that if they want to with appropriate budgeting.

You clearly have more disposable income than 80% of my friends. It takes me 5 years on average to get an army up and running. Typically a weekend before they release a new codex invalidating my old army list...

A new army costs ~$500-$1000.

If it takes you 5 years to collect that much money, I suggest you get a new job :(

Joey wrote:pics or didn't happen.

Well that seems like a colossal waste of my time...
It looks like milk, smells like tequila and tastes like subdued tequila...
If you want pictures you can do it yourself and you'll have lots of pictures.

stompydakka wrote:

Joey wrote:
The "arguments" put forward here remind me of the "arguments" religionists put forward. i.e., there is one absolute truth that is, in some curious way, unquantifiable.
Or are people in the internet incapable of being rational.
Possibly both.

Smell that? That's irony.

Criticism of the self does not negate criticism of the other.

Horst wrote:
A new army costs ~$500-$1000.

If it takes you 5 years to collect that much money, I suggest you get a new job :(

Try living with a government thats idea of an economic stimulus is to raise taxes. Unemployment is a bitch.

I despise what the Imperial Guard have become. Cheap units and builds that supercedes everything else. If it doesn't have a melta gun, plasma gun, autocannon, or isn't in a Chimera or Valk, its considered sub-par and needs to have these things. Manticores are the same way--I hate those things so much.

Darn you Robbin Cruddace! I want my Sergeants to have lasguns not friggin power weapons! We're not imitation Orks with our crappy blobs of foot guard!

Yea that's right, sergeants in infantry squads can't have lasguns but you can give them a flippin power weapon. Why? Why would you give a nickle and dime sergeant something that's considered uncommon!?

Heresy!

Joey wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, because there's no cheap way to convert them. At all.

Not everyone has been part of an online community for years. I'm a consumer, with feth all money. Please enlighten me as to how to convert hydras.

Maxmini do good turrets at 27EUR a go. Alternatively Puppet Wars do a turret which is pretty passable for something like £6 a go. Both good options and much cheaper than buying them at £43/tank from FW.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:You can have 9 Av14 tanks in an army, along with 9 AV12 skimmers that have scout. And a transport capacity.

And 6 AV12 transports. 8 if you count the HQ.

Meaning that you could have a total of 26 vehicles in a perfectly legal army.

if youre bringing all that youre gonna be playing apoc anyways

Billagio wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:You can have 9 Av14 tanks in an army, along with 9 AV12 skimmers that have scout. And a transport capacity.

And 6 AV12 transports. 8 if you count the HQ.

Meaning that you could have a total of 26 vehicles in a perfectly legal army.

if youre bringing all that youre gonna be playing apoc anyways

Not necessarily...
Apocalypse is about points values...
You could have only infantry in an apocalypse macth but equally you could have too many tanks to carry.

So just real quick - 2 Chimeras in HQ, 3 in Elite, 36 in Troop, 9 Valks, 9 Hydras.

That's a lot of vehicles.

Guard can out shoot anything in the game. The problem is that while they can do that, they can place too many units on the table for you to actually destroy, and have orders to improve the effectiveness of units as needed.

Guard infantry are weak, but benefit from the ability to add power weapons/fists to actually kill off marines and termies before the squad dies. They can even make massive blob squads, add a priest, and assault better than anyone else in the game, points wise.

They have excellent transports, chimeras being cheap, have a decent gun and lots of infantry inside can shoot, not just 1. You can also hide your ever important order issuing units inside them. Their Valkyries are fast, which can basically make the guard the 3rd fastest army in the game for next to nothing. Nothing like playing against a guard army with 3 outflanking valkyries with melta guns inside.

Their tanks just kill stuff dead. Squadron rules for most of them allow you to field an absurd number of vehicles from just the heavy support slot. You know it's bad when there is no way to bring enough anti-tank to kill everything.

Effectively, the guard is the best shooting in the game, with decent or better than average everything else.

juraigamer wrote:
Effectively, the guard is the best shooting in the game, with decent or better than average everything else.

Until Tau get a facelift. But until that happens Guard definately have the best variety of shooting that I've seen in any other army.

I don't know why some people claim that Guard are OP/really good because they can take so many vehicles due to squadrons. Squadrons are actually quite debilitating for a Guard army. Being destroyed on an immobilized result while still only presenting one unit to shoot at and with means that any anti-tank weapon with mulitple shots will likely be able to damage multiple vehicles in a single turn.

The strength of the Guard lies in multiple chimeras and tanks in every FOC slot so we don't have to double or triple up vehicles. The exception to this is the common pair of Hydras due to their cheapness and increasing volume of fire.

Just be glad Chimeras can't take Autocannon turrets. THAT would be terrifying.

Blacksails wrote:I don't know why some people claim that Guard are OP/really good because they can take so many vehicles due to squadrons. Squadrons are actually quite debilitating for a Guard army. Being destroyed on an immobilized result while still only presenting one unit to shoot at and with means that any anti-tank weapon with mulitple shots will likely be able to damage multiple vehicles in a single turn.

The strength of the Guard lies in multiple chimeras and tanks in every FOC slot so we don't have to double or triple up vehicles. The exception to this is the common pair of Hydras due to their cheapness and increasing volume of fire.

Just be glad Chimeras can't take Autocannon turrets. THAT would be terrifying.

IIRC death korps chimeras CAN take autocannons, I read that in a ForgeWorld thread though so could be BS.
Squadrans are just a way of pissing away points. In reality IG can only have 3 Leman Russes, or 2 Leman Russes and a couple of hyrdas.
And you can spam chimeras if you want, but it's all or nothing. A couple of chimeras, other than keeping command squad/pyskers safe, won't do much other than waste points. The only way that chimeras are "overpowered" is if you take them at every possibly opportunity, which virtually no one has the money or willpower to do.

I'm curious. Do you know what a competitive Guard list looks like? Please post one. Say for...1500-2000pts range.

What's true in "competitive" circles is of no interest to me.
I play for fun, and friendly competition with friends.

Then why are you arguing about IG being OP? If you don't care about what competitive is, then why discuss the OP nature of Guard with little to no knowledge of what the IG are known for in competitive games?

If you're more concerned about fun...why would you worry about whether one army is OP or not? As soon as you start talking about what is, and is not, OP then immediately people are going to assume you're discussing how competitive the army is, as that is where it matters how powerful, or not, the army is.

Blacksails wrote:I don't know why some people claim that Guard are OP/really good because they can take so many vehicles due to squadrons. Squadrons are actually quite debilitating for a Guard army. Being destroyed on an immobilized result while still only presenting one unit to shoot at and with means that any anti-tank weapon with mulitple shots will likely be able to damage multiple vehicles in a single turn.

The strength of the Guard lies in multiple chimeras and tanks in every FOC slot so we don't have to double or triple up vehicles. The exception to this is the common pair of Hydras due to their cheapness and increasing volume of fire.

Thisthisthisthis

Just be glad Chimeras can't take Autocannon turrets. THAT would be terrifying.

They can with IA rules, and it's not really that terrifying having played both with and against them. The cost premium over the already fairly effective multi-laser really isn't worth it.

Joey wrote:
IIRC death korps chimeras CAN take autocannons, I read that in a ForgeWorld thread though so could be BS.

IA:1 rules allow chimeras to take autocannons, the Death Korps don't have chimeras at all.

The only way that chimeras are "overpowered" is if you take them at every possibly opportunity, which virtually no one has the money or willpower to do.

>_>
<_<

(don't look at my sig)

juraigamer wrote:

Guard infantry are weak, but benefit from the ability to add power weapons/fists to actually kill off marines and termies before the squad dies.

They've always had that ability, in fact, in the last book, they were all 5pts cheaper. Doesn't mean they're a good investment most of the time and you rarely see them outside of blob squads.

They can even make massive blob squads, add a priest, and assault better than anyone else in the game, points wise.

Erm, were talking about a 300-400pt unit here at that point, whose primary strength is being able to eat more casualties than an enemy can inflict before they're ground down, not an epic tier assault unit. There's a reason you don't see tons of CC guard armies.

They have excellent transports, chimeras being cheap, have a decent gun and lots of infantry inside can shoot, not just 1. You can also hide your ever important order issuing units inside them.

And if the infantry are all or mostly in the transports, the orders can't be issued to anything.

Their Valkyries are fast, which can basically make the guard the 3rd fastest army in the game for next to nothing. Nothing like playing against a guard army with 3 outflanking valkyries with melta guns inside.

As opposed to 1st turn DS drop pods, outflanking genestealers, CSM chosen outflanking with 5 meltaguns in a rhino, etc?

Their tanks just kill stuff dead.

Um, in what way and whose don't?

Squadron rules for most of them allow you to field an absurd number of vehicles from just the heavy support slot.

Again, it seems nobody reads the squadron rules....

You know it's bad when there is no way to bring enough anti-tank to kill everything.

There usually is a way, it just means that against many other armies you're hosed Any type of IG army is beatable, just not in a very "all comers" way.

Effectively, the guard is the best shooting in the game, with decent or better than average everything else.

That's kinda the point. They're supposed to be, along with maybe Tau (who have never had as much raw firepower but rather more manueverability and ability to place it where it counts, they've got an outdated book for now but that'll change soon enough apparently).

Blacksails wrote:Then why are you arguing about IG being OP? If you don't care about what competitive is, then why discuss the OP nature of Guard with little to no knowledge of what the IG are known for in competitive games?

Because I'm not a "competitive" player. Seriously, how is this difficult?

Joey wrote:

Blacksails wrote:Then why are you arguing about IG being OP? If you don't care about what competitive is, then why discuss the OP nature of Guard with little to no knowledge of what the IG are known for in competitive games?

Because I'm not a "competitive" player. Seriously, how is this difficult?

I'm still at a loss for you starting this thread if you have no clue what is OP and what is not. I'm not a competitive player either by nature, but I know what a good list and codex is and what is not. You claim IG are not OP and back this up by plugging your ears and screaming "LALALALALA", then back it up further by stating you aren't a competitive player. It really makes no sense.

If you were a competitive player, and played against competitive IG lists, you'd understand why they are a top tier army.

Vaktathi wrote:

The only way that chimeras are "overpowered" is if you take them at every possibly opportunity, which virtually no one has the money or willpower to do.

>_>
<_<

(don't look at my sig)

Dude those tanks/APCs are awesome! Lovely colour scheme too, you don't see enough relaxed colour schemes around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blacksails wrote:
I'm still at a loss for you starting this thread if you have no clue what is OP and what is not. I'm not a competitive player either by nature, but I know what a good list and codex is and what is not. You claim IG are not OP and back this up by plugging your ears and screaming "LALALALALA", then back it up further by stating you aren't a competitive player. It really makes no sense.

If you were a competitive player, and played against competitive IG lists, you'd understand why they are a top tier army.

Because there's a spectrum between a 7 year old dribbling on a space marine, and someone who's entered thousands of tournaments. I play seriously, and I play to win, but that doesn't mean I'm interested in some objective notion of a single "competative army list".

Joey wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blacksails wrote:
I'm still at a loss for you starting this thread if you have no clue what is OP and what is not. I'm not a competitive player either by nature, but I know what a good list and codex is and what is not. You claim IG are not OP and back this up by plugging your ears and screaming "LALALALALA", then back it up further by stating you aren't a competitive player. It really makes no sense.

If you were a competitive player, and played against competitive IG lists, you'd understand why they are a top tier army.

Because there's a spectrum between a 7 year old dribbling on a space marine, and someone who's entered thousands of tournaments. I play seriously, and I play to win, but that doesn't mean I'm interested in some objective notion of a single "competative army list".

I appreciate your good will.