Imperial Guard overpowered? Compared to whom, exactly?

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**Tangent**

Vaktathi wrote:Marbo can be abusive

Ok, I'm a noob, but I REALLY would like this explained. My buddy uses Marbo and he is ALWAYS useless. I've developed a couple of ideas as to how he might actually be useful, but I'm interested in an explanation here...

**Horst**

Tangent wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:Marbo can be abusive

Ok, I'm a noob, but I REALLY would like this explained. My buddy uses Marbo and he is ALWAYS useless. I've developed a couple of ideas as to how he might actually be useful, but I'm interested in an explanation here...

I've never seen him be OVERLY abusive... I mean granted he has a demo charge, but you can achieve the same effect more reliably from other options in your codex.

**Corrode**

Joey wrote:Dedicated anti-tank units will destroy a tank? SURELY SHOME JOKE.
I hear tankbustas also wreck vehicles, point?
If you can't destroy two chimeras with your land raider, that's YOUR fault.

You're wilfully being stupid as gak, feth off.

**Joey**

Horst wrote:
Once again, I can only assume your being ignorant on purpose, because nobody is truly this in the dark when it comes to the game.

Chimeras have armor 12. Saying things like "They have armor 10 on the side!" means less than nothing to me, because if you take enough chimeras, you just make a wall of armor 12, and you have no shots to the sides available. If you are an extremely FAST vehicle, then yes, you can get side shots. Alas, land raiders are not. Hell, I've known guard players to anchor chimera lines with hellhounds because of the AV12 side, so there is NO WAY to get a side armor shot on them.

Lets see how likely it is to kill a chimera with a land raider, shall we?

87% chance to hit the vehicle. 50% chance to penetrate. 33% chance to destroy. That totals out to be a 14% chance to destroy a chimera.

If we assume your goal is to immobilize the chimera, our odds go up to a 19% chance to cripple it. That means we need FIVE SHOTS to stop a chimera on average... if you smoke, we need TEN. We aren't stopping one chimera before it can fire, let alone 2.

Surely you just want to stop it moving? so a 2, 4,5,6 would do. Or on glancing, 4 and 6. This gives us a 2/3 chance on a penetrate, 1/3 chance on glancing. Oh and your landraider has several of these. It can also move out of the way. I don't know what the rest of your army is doing while your land raider sits on its arse like an obese child surrounded by salivating wolves.
Maybe they're being crushed in close combat by those fearsome meltavets.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corrode wrote:
You're wilfully being stupid as gak, feth off.

What exactly has offended you? That I point out that specialised anti-tank units are good at taking out tanks? That's being "willfully stupid"?

**purplefood**

OP isn't willing to listen to reasonable posts.
Thread is going downhill quick...

Time to leave...

**Vaktathi**

Marbo's ability to basically just appear anywhere and toss and ordnance blast is what's so powerful. An opponent can hide units from LoS or behind cover and whatnot, but then Marbo comes on, tosses his demo charge, usually hits, and kills most/all of the target.

Tau in particular hate Marbo. Jet infantry? Well, good thing you used that assault move to get back behind cover, oh wait...

He also makes a great punchline, tossing a demo charge at a bunched up disembarked unit and annihilating it.

Yeah, he can whiff, but if an opponent has any unit that isn't physically in are terrain, Marbo can neutralize it with a high degree of success.

Of course, then your opponent also has to waste another units shooting to get rid of him instead of targeting something more valuable because he's good enough in CC to finish off most units survivors of his demo charge if needs be the next turn and packs melta-bombs for AT, so an opponent can't just ignore him.

**Comrade**

Horst wrote:
Comrade wrote:
JB_Man wrote:
It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

Huh?

10 Space marines split into 2 squads w/ a ML and a Flamer VS a 10 man Vet Squad with 3 melta guns and a chimera (160pts vs 155 pts) = SMs win. Really. A 'Naked" SM squad doesn't have to exist unless you WANT to NOT use you FREE weapon upgrades.

A LR VS 5 Chimeras. Not even able to do this one. LR wins. A Chimera has at most a S6 gun. While an AV14 tank is a beast. An AV12/10/10 tank can get fethed up by bolters into the side. Or frag grenades.

Please don't be purposefully stupid. Nobody is saying that 5 chimeras will beat a land raider.

However, 2 chimeras full of melta vets will ANNIHILATE a land raider, and do a darn good job of killing everything inside of it.

The fact is that guard lists can be among the most overpowered in the game, and unless your playing blood angels, space wolves, or grey knights, you really don't stand a chance against a well-built guard list.

Well maybe people shouldn't try and compare a LR (which is a dedicated Assault Transport with AV 14) with a chimera (cheap spammed wagons)

and 2 chimeras with melta vets is MORE expensive then a LR. Not to mention WHY would one LET a chimera w/ melta vets within 6" of them (after of course the chimera only moved 6" to get within firing range which means it was only 12" in the SM turn)

**Joey**

purplefood wrote:OP isn't willing to listen to reasonable posts.
Thread is going downhill quick...

Time to leave...

The "arguments" put forward here remind me of the "arguments" religionists put forward. i.e., there is one absolute truth that is, in some curious way, unquantifiable.
Or are people in the internet incapable of being rational.
Possibly both.

**Comrade**

never saw marbo as a powerhouse. More like a 65 point non scatter directional Demo charge.

plus he is a KP.

**Corrode**

Oh god, the idiots are breeding.

**Horst**

Comrade wrote:
Well maybe people shouldn't try and compare a LR (which is a dedicated Assault Transport with AV 14) with a chimera (cheap spammed wagons)

and 2 chimeras with melta vets is MORE expensive then a LR. Not to mention WHY would one LET a chimera w/ melta vets within 6" of them (after of course the chimera only moved 6" to get within firing range which means it was only 12" in the SM turn)

The raider + whatever is inside it is way more expensive than 2 chimeras + melta vets.

And I don't know wtf your talking about, with your 12" range...

Chimera can move 12", disembark 2", and fire 6" melta range. Thats a 20" melta threat radius. Sure, the melta vets will die... but sacrificing 200 points of melta vets for a 250 point raider is good, not to mention the terminators will now be useless.

And this is all besides the point, because you CANT just move away from the guard army, you have to go TOWARDS it, as a marine player, because you will NEVER outshoot a good guard list.

**purplefood**

Joey wrote:
purplefood wrote:OP isn't willing to listen to reasonable posts.
Thread is going downhill quick...

Time to leave...

The "arguments" put forward here remind me of the "arguments" religionists put forward. i.e., there is one absolute truth that is, in some curious way, unquantifiable.
Or are people in the internet incapable of being rational.
Possibly both.

The argument is that the IG codex doesn't really have a sinlge OP unit but rather works together as a whole as an 'OP' army instead.
This was said on the 1st page.

**Soladrin**

I need more popcorn... this is way to good.

Also, I fething hate Manticores. I play orks :(

**Blacksails**

Joey must be trolling.

If someone who actually plays 40k genuinely thinks Imperial Guard are not one of the top codices currently, they clearly know nothing about how to actually play this game.

Seriously. Crawl out of your hole and play against some competitive IG builds. Manticores, Hydras, Melta and Plasma Vets, Vendettas and CCSs with a number of chimeras will eat through most armies.

Vaktathi has summed up quite nicely in a number of posts why IG is a top codex. Ignoring such reasons only shows ignorance and/or deliberate trolling.

*Edit* Forgot a word.

**Corrode**

Blacksails wrote:Joey must be trolling.

If someone who actually plays 40k genuinely thinks Imperial Guard are not one of the top codices currently, they clearly know nothing about how to actually play this game.

Seriously. Crawl out of your hole and play against some competitive IG builds. Manticores, Hydras, Melta and Plasma Vets, Vendettas and CCSs with a number of chimeras will eat through most armies.

Vaktathi has summed up quite nicely in a number of posts why IG is a top codex. Ignoring such reasons only shows ignorance and/or deliberate trolling.

*Edit* Forgot a word.

You must have missed it dude, Joey and Comrade have come up with the way to beat meltavets - you just DON'T GET IN RANGE OF THEM! Nobody else has ever thought of that and of course there's nothing else in the Guard army that would require you to go towards it, and games don't have objectives ever nor does your own army have any short-ranged weapons. They've cracked it, just don't put your stuff near his stuff and you'll be dominating tournaments the world over.

**Rampage**

Joey wrote:
Horst wrote:
Comrade wrote:
JB_Man wrote:
It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

Huh?

10 Space marines split into 2 squads w/ a ML and a Flamer VS a 10 man Vet Squad with 3 melta guns and a chimera (160pts vs 155 pts) = SMs win. Really. A 'Naked" SM squad doesn't have to exist unless you WANT to NOT use you FREE weapon upgrades.

A LR VS 5 Chimeras. Not even able to do this one. LR wins. A Chimera has at most a S6 gun. While an AV14 tank is a beast. An AV12/10/10 tank can get fethed up by bolters into the side. Or frag grenades.

Please don't be purposefully stupid. Nobody is saying that 5 chimeras will beat a land raider.

However, 2 chimeras full of melta vets will ANNIHILATE a land raider, and do a darn good job of killing everything inside of it.

The fact is that guard lists can be among the most overpowered in the game, and unless your playing blood angels, space wolves, or grey knights, you really don't stand a chance against a well-built guard list.

Dedicated anti-tank units will destroy a tank? SURELY SHOME JOKE.
I hear tankbustas also wreck vehicles, point?
If you can't destroy two chimeras with your land raider, that's YOUR fault.

Can tankbustas wreck a Land Raider through shooting? No
Does a squad of 10 tankbustas cost more points than a 10 man Melta Vets squad? Yes
Do Tankbustas have the disadvantage of the Glory Hogs rule that Melta Vets do not suffer from? Yes
Do Tankbustas have a lower BS? Yes
Do Tankbustas have Melta Weapons? No
You understand my point? You yourself compared Melta Vets to Tankbustas, and yet Melta Vets are better in every possible way.

Also, on the Land Raider thing, the Land Raider can't split fire, so yeah, it might be able to take out one Chimera, but the other one will probably have it. And saying that it's someones fault that their Land Raider didn't manage to kill a Chimera is stupid, is it someone's fault that they rolled a 2 on the vehicle damage table? No, it's down to luck.

(I like answering my own questions today)

EDIT: This post has moved on far too much for my liking since I started typing my post

**Joey**

purplefood wrote:
The argument is that the IG codex doesn't really have a sinlge OP unit but rather works together as a whole as an 'OP' army instead.
This was said on the 1st page.

Yeah, and the evidence for this is that a specialised anti-tank unit with T3 Ld 8 and 12" range is capable of taking out a tank.
Sorry but I call bs.
Note that saying the IG codex is better than others is not the same as saying it is "OP". It may well be one of the best out there, doesn't mean it's overpowered by any stretch.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rampage wrote:
Can tankbustas wreck a Land Raider through shooting? No
Does a squad of 10 tankbustas cost more points than a 10 man Melta Vets squad? Yes
Do Tankbustas have the disadvantage of the Glory Hogs rule that Melta Vets do not suffer from? Yes
Do Tankbustas have a lower BS? Yes
Do Tankbustas have Melta Weapons? No
You understand my point? You yourself compared Melta Vets to Tankbustas, and yet Melta Vets are better in every possible way.

Also, on the Land Raider thing, the Land Raider can't split fire, so yeah, it might be able to take out one Chimera, but the other one will probably have it. And saying that it's someones fault that their Land Raider didn't manage to kill a Chimera is stupid, is it someone's fault that they rolled a 2 on the vehicle damage table? No, it's down to luck.

(I like answering my own questions today)

I have no idea what stats tankbustas are, so i'll take your word for that.
And Land Raider CAN split fire, machine spirit.

**Vaktathi**

Rampage wrote:

Also, on the Land Raider thing, the Land Raider can't split fire, so yeah, it might be able to take out one Chimera, but the other one will probably have it.

Actually, the Land Raider *can* split fire. PotMS and all that.

**purplefood**

Joey wrote:
purplefood wrote:
The argument is that the IG codex doesn't really have a sinlge OP unit but rather works together as a whole as an 'OP' army instead.
This was said on the 1st page.

Yeah, and the evidence for this is that a specialised anti-tank unit with T3 Ld 8 and 12" range is capable of taking out a tank.
Sorry but I call bs.
Note that saying the IG codex is better than others is not the same as saying it is "OP". It may well be one of the best out there, doesn't mean it's overpowered by any stretch.

It isn't over powered but that's why people think it is.
If you faced a keyed up IG list you may well think they are OP.
Vets are very capable of taking out a tank which is why people keep using them... they are also cheap as hell.

**Blacksails**

Corrode wrote:
Blacksails wrote:Joey must be trolling.

If someone who actually plays 40k genuinely thinks Imperial Guard are not one of the top codices currently, they clearly know nothing about how to actually play this game.

Seriously. Crawl out of your hole and play against some competitive IG builds. Manticores, Hydras, Melta and Plasma Vets, Vendettas and CCSs with a number of chimeras will eat through most armies.

Vaktathi has summed up quite nicely in a number of posts why IG is a top codex. Ignoring such reasons only shows ignorance and/or deliberate trolling.

*Edit* Forgot a word.

You must have missed it dude, Joey and Comrade have come up with the way to beat meltavets - you just DON'T GET IN RANGE OF THEM! Nobody else has ever thought of that and of course there's nothing else in the Guard army that would require you to go towards it, and games don't have objectives ever nor does your own army have any short-ranged weapons. They've cracked it, just don't put your stuff near his stuff and you'll be dominating tournaments the world over.

Holy

! That's brilliant! We're all royally screwed with this new amazing idea! I guess its time to pack in my IG and pick up a new army. I hear Tau are a super OP codex because they have super awesome guns and a cool anime flair.

**Comrade**

Horst wrote:
Comrade wrote:
Well maybe people shouldn't try and compare a LR (which is a dedicated Assault Transport with AV 14) with a chimera (cheap spammed wagons)

and 2 chimeras with melta vets is MORE expensive then a LR. Not to mention WHY would one LET a chimera w/ melta vets within 6" of them (after of course the chimera only moved 6" to get within firing range which means it was only 12" in the SM turn)

The raider + whatever is inside it is way more expensive than 2 chimeras + melta vets.

And I don't know wtf your talking about, with your 12" range...

Chimera can move 12", disembark 2", and fire 6" melta range. Thats a 20" melta threat radius. Sure, the melta vets will die... but sacrificing 200 points of melta vets for a 250 point raider is good, not to mention the terminators will now be useless.

And this is all besides the point, because you CANT just move away from the guard army, you have to go TOWARDS it, as a marine player, because you will NEVER outshoot a good guard list.

Hm. I concede the point about disembarking. The thought of disembarking a Scoring unit in an all vet army to die to destroy a transport never made sense to me.

And yes. you do have to move towards a guard army. Doesn't mean you can have thing that are Anti tank in your backfield. Whoop te doo. Look AV12. AC, MLs. Break e'm up. Ignore Hellhouds (Not AP3 definitely not to good at tank busting)

Eldar have AV12. No one is complaining about that. they also have funny shields and random flying gak.

Meltavets destroy vehicles. Yes. Everything else. Not so much. There we agree to that. At least I hope so, if you start saying they are the most broken thing in the codex and destroy termies I'm just going to give up talking to you.

(plus the fact your ignoring the vendetta. Which is the brokenest thingy along with the manticore)

Anyways I'm not disagreeing that the IG codex is one of the best out there. It is. But as with everything else its beatable.

**Corrode**

Eldar vehicles cost 120ish points with AV12, Chimeras cost 55, Hydras 75. There's a slight difference in how many are on the table.

Again, you're focusing on one unit (meltavets) and ignoring everything else in the army. Nobody thinks meltavets by themselves are overpowered, it's what they do in the context of the rest of the Guard army that makes them powerful.

**Horst**

Melta vets in chimeras aren't the ONLY reason guard is OP... they are just one of the better examples.

Let me list all the broken abilities guard has -

1) Psyker squads. Instant leadership -9 is broken, don't even pretend it isn't.

2) vet squads w/ special weapons in chimeras WAY too cheap... deliver as much firepower as marine squads at close range for 100 points less in a more durable transport.

3) Vendettas are CRAZY OP. For 35 points CHEAPER than a predator annihilator, you get 3 TL lascannons (compensating for lower BS), 12 armor all around, fast, outflanking, squadrons, and transport capabilities. WTF?

4) Hydras are undercosted as all hell. For 50 points less than a rifleman dread, you get longer range and ignoring cover saves, at the cost of 11% accuracy. Sure, your side armor is lower... but again, it doesn't usually matter unless you get in close, and you can't do that because of the chimeras with vets screening them.

There are probably more, but these are just the ones off the top of my head without re-reading the codex.

**Rampage**

Vaktathi wrote:
Rampage wrote:

Also, on the Land Raider thing, the Land Raider can't split fire, so yeah, it might be able to take out one Chimera, but the other one will probably have it.
Actually, the Land Raider *can* split fire. PotMS and all that.

Ah ok, thanks both of you for pointing this out, my bad, you can probably tell that I'm not an MEQ player

.

**Horst**

@ Comrade -

Most people I know take the AP3 hellhound that wounds on a 2+..... its silly good against marines. Ignoring it is a surefire way to die.

**Comrade**

Horst wrote:Melta vets in chimeras aren't the ONLY reason guard is OP... they are just one of the better examples.

Let me list all the broken abilities guard has -

1) Psyker squads. Instant leadership -9 is broken, don't even pretend it isn't.

2) vet squads w/ special weapons in chimeras WAY too cheap... deliver as much firepower as marine squads at close range for 100 points less in a more durable transport.

3) Vendettas are CRAZY OP. For 35 points CHEAPER than a predator annihilator, you get 3 TL lascannons (compensating for lower BS), 12 armor all around, fast, outflanking, squadrons, and transport capabilities. WTF?

4) Hydras are undercosted as all hell. For 50 points less than a rifleman dread, you get longer range and ignoring cover saves, at the cost of 11% accuracy. Sure, your side armor is lower... but again, it doesn't usually matter unless you get in close, and you can't do that because of the chimeras with vets screening them.

There are probably more, but these are just the ones off the top of my head without re-reading the codex.

oh man. you guys get way to worked up over this gak.

yeah, its the banewolf (I think I still run a 3rd-4th ed Guard army with Platoons (Shock *AWE*) and regular old LRMBTs none of this stupid flying gak)

but its only a flame template (I think) I don't use em.

**Horst**

I'm just bitter that guard is almost unbeatable for a marine player (codex marines, as blood angels / space wolves / GK have plenty of fight in them).

**Corrode**

Horst wrote:I'm just bitter that guard is almost unbeatable for a marine player (codex marines, as blood angels / space wolves / GK have plenty of fight in them).

Get better at playing.

**Comrade**

Horst wrote:I'm just bitter that guard is almost unbeatable for a marine player (codex marines, as blood angels / space wolves / GK have plenty of fight in them).

I've been killing marines with IG since 1998. What do you mean fight?

**Joey**

Horst wrote:Melta vets in chimeras aren't the ONLY reason guard is OP... they are just one of the better examples.

Let me list all the broken abilities guard has -

1) Psyker squads. Instant leadership -9 is broken, don't even pretend it isn't.

True enough. I only play against marines though, where its effects are much, much less useful. But otherwise sure, 110 points (165 w/chimera) for a unit that can do that is OP.

Horst wrote:
2) vet squads w/ special weapons in chimeras WAY too cheap... deliver as much firepower as marine squads at close range for 100 points less in a more durable transport.

Meh, they're still pretty easy to kill, I disagree with you on this

Horst wrote:
3) Vendettas are CRAZY OP. For 35 points CHEAPER than a predator annihilator, you get 3 TL lascannons (compensating for lower BS), 12 armor all around, fast, outflanking, squadrons, and transport capabilities. WTF?

Okay that's probably true. Never used one in battle but from the rules, 3 twinlinked lascannon shots=dead vehicle.

Horst wrote:
4) Hydras are undercosted as all hell. For 50 points less than a rifleman dread, you get longer range and ignoring cover saves, at the cost of 11% accuracy. Sure, your side armor is lower... but again, it doesn't usually matter unless you get in close, and you can't do that because of the chimeras with vets screening them.

Again, probably true. It rips light armour to shreds but is useless against heavy vehicles. More importantly however, it competes with Leman Russes for heavy support, so is somewhat limitted in usefulness.
But I still wouldn't say they were over-powered as a whole. Especially with melta-bombs commonplace. IG become much easier to beat against a specialised anti-IG list.