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Title say it all. But I was wondering can someone enlighten me with this.
According to this there are 3 types of chapters in the Imperium.

Type 1 - Those who are called "scions of Guiliman". Who are descendant from his geenseed and who follow codex Astartes to the letter. It is also said that "Should the Lord of Ultramar ever find himself in need of aid, he will find these Chapters ever willing and able to fight at his side.", then why they didn't help them in Battle for Macragge? I recall that only Segmentum Tempestus fleet from Bakka helped them and noone else, why didn't these chapters helped them if they are so titled to them?

Type 2 - Their geen-seed is from another Primarch and they can never be Ultramarines. But they will "ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the Great Primarch". Titled Chapters are Imperial Fist, White Scars and Raven Guard, why would they put Guiliman teachings ahead of teachings of their own Primarchs?

Type 3 - Chapters who are aberrants with geen-seed mutations and stubbornness. it is said that "Blood Angels are striving to be worthy of Guliman legacy but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it." As far as I know Blood Angels are almost all cc assault Chapter and they are following teachings of Sanguinus. And last, Chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars who are following the path of their own Primarchs "care little in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes further with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." How can Space Wolves and Black Templars be few in numbers toward Ultramarines? And how can they be dying out when their numbers are constantly the same? And AFAIK Space Wolves do have few successor Chapters while BT have none, but how is this relevant toward dying out?

Brother Coa wrote:Type 1 - Those who are called "scions of Guiliman". Who are descendant from his geenseed and who follow codex Astartes to the letter. It is also said that "Should the Lord of Ultramar ever find himself in need of aid, he will find these Chapters ever willing and able to fight at his side.", then why they didn't help them in Battle for Macragge? I recall that only Segmentum Tempestus fleet from Bakka helped them and noone else, why didn't these chapters helped them if they are so titled to them?

The Galaxy is fairly large, and those Chapters are spread throughout it, and often embroiled in their own conflicts. While they may be willing to jump to the aid of their progenitors, they're not always going to be available, or able to get there in time.

Type 2 - Their geen-seed is from another Primarch and they can never be Ultramarines. But they will "ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the Great Primarch". Titled Chapters are Imperial Fist, White Scars and Raven Guard, why would they put Guiliman teachings ahead of teachings of their own Primarchs?

Because their Primarchs said 'Hey, you know what? This book's pretty good. Let's do this!'

Type 3 - Chapters who are aberrants with geen-seed mutations and stubbornness. it is said that "Blood Angels are striving to be worthy of Guliman legacy but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it." As far as I know Blood Angels are almost all cc assault Chapter and they are following teachings of Sanguinus. And last, Chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars who are following the path of their own Primarchs "care little in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes further with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." How can Space Wolves and Black Templars be few in numbers toward Ultramarines? And how can they be dying out when their numbers are constantly the same?

I have no idea where you're getting that from. Black Templars are thought to the largest Chapter currently in the Imperium. Nobody's quite sure just how many of them there are. And there is no problem with their Geneseed. Their deviance from the Codex is purely an organisational thing, not a result of mutation.

And AFAIK Space Wolves do have few successor Chapters while BT have none, but how is this relevant toward dying out?

Space Wolves had one known successor Chapter, which was purged by the Inquisition for genetic instability. I don't recall if there are any listed successors of the Black Templars, but there's no real reason that there couldn't be a whole swag of them.

It is just plain Matt Ward fanboy-ism, that whole section in the codex makes me cringe. Chapters revive their Primarch above all else (expect the Emperor) and the only reason they follow the Codex Astates is because all the Primarchs agreed so to save the Imperium.

For the Lion!

insaniak wrote:
I have no idea where you're getting that from.

Space Marine codex 5'th edition, page 26.

What Mad Tanker said. It's just Mr Ward making his favourite Chapter better than all the rest, while we all know there are more effective Chapters than the 'Ultra'marines. I've just pretended that this passage is from their point of view because they are self rightous dicks as they are portrayed everywhere else. The passage is not actually true, just like Draigo for the Grey Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition wrote:
These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Robute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition wrote:
Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's(?!!) legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it.

Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition wrote:

Others, such as the Space Wolves and Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little how they fare in the eyes of others.

Such divergent Chapters play little part in this volume, for this is the tale of Ultramarines, and all those who follow in their example.

Mr Ward at his finest.

[sarcasm]So you're suggesting that perhaps some people dislike Mat Ward's hyperbolic writing and resent the Ultramarines' poster-boy status?

Thanks for that, I'd never otherwise have known.[/sarcasm]

I have no idea where you're getting that from. Black Templars are thought to the largest Chapter currently in the Imperium. Nobody's quite sure just how many of them there are. And there is no problem with their Geneseed. Their deviance from the Codex is purely an organisational thing, not a result of mutation.

Isn't the inflated numbers of Black Templars due to the fact that they have the highest casualty rate of all the chapters? Nothing says 'We need more Neophytes' after charging headlong into a Tau Gunline.

It's due to their eternal crusade in the name of the God-Emperor; they need Legion numbers to spread humanity's perfection over the entire galaxy

Brother Coa wrote:Title say it all. But I was wondering can someone enlighten me with this.
According to this there are 3 types of chapters in the Imperium.

Type 1 - Those who are called "scions of Guiliman". Who are descendant from his geenseed and who follow codex Astartes to the letter. It is also said that "Should the Lord of Ultramar ever find himself in need of aid, he will find these Chapters ever willing and able to fight at his side.", then why they didn't help them in Battle for Macragge? I recall that only Segmentum Tempestus fleet from Bakka helped them and noone else, why didn't these chapters helped them if they are so titled to them?

Galaxy is a big place and Hive Fleet Behemoth attacked more then just Macragge at frightening speed. There wasn't enough time to mobilize apparently.

Type 2 - Their geen-seed is from another Primarch and they can never be Ultramarines. But they will "ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the Great Primarch". Titled Chapters are Imperial Fist, White Scars and Raven Guard, why would they put Guiliman teachings ahead of teachings of their own Primarchs?

They wouldn't, it's an idiotic piece of Matt Ward fluff. The Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Raven Guard are all fiercely proud of their heritage and their Primarch before Guilliman.

Type 3 - Chapters who are aberrants with geen-seed mutations and stubbornness. it is said that "Blood Angels are striving to be worthy of Guliman legacy but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it." As far as I know Blood Angels are almost all cc assault Chapter and they are following teachings of Sanguinus. And last, Chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars who are following the path of their own Primarchs "care little in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes further with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." How can Space Wolves and Black Templars be few in numbers toward Ultramarines? And how can they be dying out when their numbers are constantly the same? And AFAIK Space Wolves do have few successor Chapters while BT have none, but how is this relevant toward dying out?

The logic by Ward is that since the Ultramarines gene-seed is so magnificent while everyone elses is so horrible that they have a dominant share of successor chapters.

It's all a bunch of hyperbole written by Ward, and is a good source of Ward-hate from non-Ultramarine players. It's also probably where all the Ultramarines fanboyism comes from.
"Oh look, we're the best cause our Primarch wrote the Codex that all you guys have to follow. We're the best, nyer nyer nyer". Or atleast thats how I feel about it.

Really annoyed me, since the Imperial Fists and Raven Guard are my favourite First Founding Legions, and their Primarchs were also my favourite. To think they'd swallow their pride and disregard the teachings of their own Primarch? Pah! Fat chance. 'Type 2' Chapters are very proud of their heritage, and would only follow the Codex superficially (in terms of company divisions and deployment).

Hell, IIRC, despite being a 'Codex' Chapter, the Raven Guard are known for their 'reckless' disregard of the Codex. In other words, Corax's bad boys are taking Roboute's Codex and telling him to shove it

To be honest, this thread is demonstrating just as big a propensity for hyperbole as people are accusing Mat Ward of...


While the Space Marines codex is certainly a little Ultramarines-centric, the simple fact is that the fluff has always (or at least for as long as the Codex Astartes has been a part of it) suggested that the bulk of the Marine Chapters follow the Codex Astartes to some degree.

Whatever people may personally think of the Ultramarines (and frankly, I've never really understood just why people get so worked up about them) within the 40K setting Guilliman was acknowledged as a brilliant military mind by his brother Primarchs.

So the idea of other Chapters wanting to 'be like the Ultramarines' isn't just something that Mat Ward dreamed up. The Codex Astartes is the standard that the Marine Chapters were given to aspire to, and those who choose to follow it do it willingly... not because they're disregarding their own Primarchs' teachings, but because their Primarchs thought it was a good idea.


And that's not even touching the whole whole silly claim of Mat Ward being single-handedly responsible for developing the background of the game. He's not the only guy in the design studio.

Brother Coa wrote:How can Space Wolves and Black Templars be few in numbers toward Ultramarines? And how can they be dying out when their numbers are constantly the same? And AFAIK Space Wolves do have few successor Chapters while BT have none, but how is this relevant toward dying out?

A. Simple maths would say that if the number of Space Wolfs/Black Templar remain constant while the number of chapters founded under Ultramarine derived geneseed is increased would mean that the percentage of Space Wolves would decrease.

B. Space Wolves have no successor chapters, the only one that was formed became genetically unstable as it had to recruit outside of Fenris.

insaniak wrote:
While the Space Marines codex is certainly a little Ultramarines-centric,

I doubt "a little" is the correct term.
Most of it IS ultramarinish....

insaniak wrote:
the simple fact is that the fluff has always (or at least for as long as the Codex Astartes has been a part of it) suggested that the bulk of the Marine Chapters follow the Codex Astartes to some degree.

To some degree, yes. There was the threat of violence, before the surviving Primarchs agreed upon its use.
The HH-series provides the "authors" disagreement at applying the codex literally too.

insaniak wrote:
So the idea of other Chapters wanting to 'be like the Ultramarines' isn't just something that Mat Ward dreamed up.

Sure it is something he dreamt up. There is no evidence outside the space marine codex of this urge to become a copy of the ultramarines in every chapter out there.

insaniak wrote:
The Codex Astartes is the standard that the Marine Chapters were given to aspire to, and those who choose to follow it do it willingly... not because they're disregarding their own Primarchs' teachings, but because their Primarchs thought it was a good idea.

See, like stated before a new civil war didn't happen but it was close. So maybe the idea wasn't as convincing as you paint it?

insaniak wrote:
And that's not even touching the whole whole silly claim of Mat Ward being single-handedly responsible for developing the background of the game. He's not the only guy in the design studio.

Mitgehangen , mitgefangen

Matthew Ward is noticed as main author of codices and thus part of the problem.
The moment he said something in a WD interview himself, ruined any chance to get away as innocent.....

And there is no problem with their Geneseed.

Imperial fist successor. Lack of a Sus-an membrane and Betcher`s gland. No spitting acid or hibernation for you.

I recall that only Segmentum Tempestus fleet from Bakka helped them and noone else, why didn't these chapters helped them if they are so titled to them?

Being halfway across the galaxy, embroiled in their own conflicts, frantically replacing losses....Or perhaps they did, but were not specifically mentioned. I don't recall specific mentions of which Ultramar PDF/Guard forces were involved, but that does not mean they were not present.

The battle for macragge story, chiefly, is about the Ultramarines getting their butts handed to them, and with some help (most notably X and/or Y) managed to beat back the ALIEN BEANZ! anyway. Not a detailed breakdown of the war. Like in other codices, even if help was present going into it in great detail detracts from the "This army is awesome!" thought that the writer wants to invoke.

I swear, Ward's biggest failing was not managing to get the title of the book changed to "Codex: Ultramarines." this one change makes a great deal of the fluff contained inside suddenly not so inconsistent with what you see in the other more specific books.

1hadhq wrote:See, like stated before a new civil war didn't happen but it was close. So maybe the idea wasn't as convincing as you paint it?

I never said they piled on the idea as the best thing since sliced bread. But they did agree to it.

Matthew Ward is noticed as main author of codices and thus part of the problem.
The moment he said something in a WD interview himself, ruined any chance to get away as innocent.....

Sure, he's the guy with the credit for the actual writing. But that doesn't mean he's developing the background in a vaccuum. So by all means criticise his writing style if it makes you feel better... but the 'fault' for the current direction of the 40K background lies at the feet of the studio as a whole, not just Mr Ward.

insaniak wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Type 1 - Those who are called "scions of Guiliman". Who are descendant from his geenseed and who follow codex Astartes to the letter. It is also said that "Should the Lord of Ultramar ever find himself in need of aid, he will find these Chapters ever willing and able to fight at his side.", then why they didn't help them in Battle for Macragge? I recall that only Segmentum Tempestus fleet from Bakka helped them and noone else, why didn't these chapters helped them if they are so titled to them?

The Galaxy is fairly large, and those Chapters are spread throughout it, and often embroiled in their own conflicts. While they may be willing to jump to the aid of their progenitors, they're not always going to be available, or able to get there in time.

Type 2 - Their geen-seed is from another Primarch and they can never be Ultramarines. But they will "ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the Great Primarch". Titled Chapters are Imperial Fist, White Scars and Raven Guard, why would they put Guiliman teachings ahead of teachings of their own Primarchs?

Because their Primarchs said 'Hey, you know what? This book's pretty good. Let's do this!'

Type 3 - Chapters who are aberrants with geen-seed mutations and stubbornness. it is said that "Blood Angels are striving to be worthy of Guliman legacy but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it." As far as I know Blood Angels are almost all cc assault Chapter and they are following teachings of Sanguinus. And last, Chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars who are following the path of their own Primarchs "care little in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes further with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." How can Space Wolves and Black Templars be few in numbers toward Ultramarines? And how can they be dying out when their numbers are constantly the same?

I have no idea where you're getting that from. Black Templars are thought to the largest Chapter currently in the Imperium. Nobody's quite sure just how many of them there are. And there is no problem with their Geneseed. Their deviance from the Codex is purely an organisational thing, not a result of mutation.

And AFAIK Space Wolves do have few successor Chapters while BT have none, but how is this relevant toward dying out?

Space Wolves had one known successor Chapter, which was purged by the Inquisition for genetic instability. I don't recall if there are any listed successors of the Black Templars, but there's no real reason that there couldn't be a whole swag of them.

1. Exactly.

2. Their primarchs didn't necessarily like it, they just didn't ignore it ENTIRELY. I.E. Dorn almost decided to blow the Smurfs the feth up.

And also, those chapters are stated as "dwindling" but asaik Space Wolves and Black Templars, the two most deviant chapters in the IoM, are by far the largest, with space wolves being ~3000, maybe a bit more even and Templars being ~6000 maybe more maybe less. As far as we know, they templars could outnumber the orks

im2randomghgh wrote:As far as we know, they templars could outnumber the orks

And that would litterally make no sense what so ever, There aren't enough viable humans for the space marine process to make the Marines neccesary to equal the sheer number of Orks. Orks are believed to be one of the most prolific races in the Galaxy.

BluntmanDC wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:As far as we know, they templars could outnumber the orks

And that would litterally make no sense what so ever, There aren't enough viable humans for the space marine process to make the Marines neccesary to equal the sheer number of Orks. Orks are believed to be one of the most prolific races in the Galaxy.

Yeah, uh... That was a joke...

Brother Coa wrote:
Type 2 - Their geen-seed is from another Primarch and they can never be Ultramarines. But they will "ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the Great Primarch". Titled Chapters are Imperial Fist, White Scars and Raven Guard, why would they put Guiliman teachings ahead of teachings of their own Primarchs?

Type 3 - Chapters who are aberrants with geen-seed mutations and stubbornness. it is said that "Blood Angels are striving to be worthy of Guliman legacy but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it." As far as I know Blood Angels are almost all cc assault Chapter and they are following teachings of Sanguinus. And last, Chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars who are following the path of their own Primarchs "care little in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes further with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." How can Space Wolves and Black Templars be few in numbers toward Ultramarines? And how can they be dying out when their numbers are constantly the same? And AFAIK Space Wolves do have few successor Chapters while BT have none, but how is this relevant toward dying out?

Well I have an issue with the examples you have sited. One is IF and other Black Templars, one is following Guilliman the other is doing it's own thing. They both share the same Primarch. Black Templars have a stable Gene-seed it's the same as IF, though they cannot spit acid (obviously Rogal thought this was ok). The BT are probably the most numerous chapter, they have massive crusade fleets and build recruiting stations all over the place. They quest beyond the established Imperium and kill everything in their path shouting HERESY and FOR THE EMPEROR. So are they both following their Primarch, well No. Do they both follow the Codex Astartes, well no. Do they have gene-seed issues, well no.

So shouldn't we have a 4th Category, e.g. Loyalists with attitude (Black Templar, Crimson Fists, Dark Angels, Iron hands etc)

Ward's worst offense in Codex: SM is clearly the blatant sidelining of the Iron Hands. His worst Ultramarines spank wasn't in the codex. It was in the interview he did re: 5e Codex Marines.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

So he gave an interview and got a little carried away. He does that in every interview I've read of his, it's how he is. As for the codex, I'd guess he's aiming to have a Codex:Ultramarines and Codex:Wish We Were Ultramarines in 6th ed.

insaniak wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:As far as we know, they templars could outnumber the orks

And that would litterally make no sense what so ever, There aren't enough viable humans for the space marine process to make the Marines neccesary to equal the sheer number of Orks. Orks are believed to be one of the most prolific races in the Galaxy.

Yeah, uh... That was a joke...

Damn your JOKES!

Yeah, the Iron Hands took one on the chin in C:SM. All the other loyalist first foundings at least got a big block with their tiny amount of fluff inside (Barring the ones with their own codex), even the White Scars! The Iron Hands got lumped in with all the other random codex chapters...The Crimson Fists got one over them.

FerrusFair wrote:Ward's worst offense in Codex: SM is clearly the blatant sidelining of the Iron Hands. His worst Ultramarines spank wasn't in the codex. It was in the interview he did re: 5e Codex Marines.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

Such douchebaggery shall not pass! Mr Ward allow me to explain how a chapter with balls operates. 6000ish German Space marines rushing into a line of whatever they can find and headbutting said thing untill they run home crying. Or maybe a bunch of flying angels blasting the hell out of they most powerful Bloodthirster bar Doombreed because he pissed off their primarch 10000 years ago. Note that neither of those chapters involve a bunch of blue bitches sitting around eating grapes and talking about how awesome they are. Rant over, I'm gonna go eat a copy of C:SM

FerrusFair wrote:Ward's worst offense in Codex: SM is clearly the blatant sidelining of the Iron Hands. His worst Ultramarines spank wasn't in the codex. It was in the interview he did re: 5e Codex Marines.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

I dug out my old SM release White Dwarf and I have to say this is sickening. I actually thought that all this complaint about the spiritual liege was misplaced, while all along it has been perfectly justified, straight from the horse's mouth.

I also found this in the interview:

In the past it's been very easy to rail against the Ultramarines - I think they've sometimes been percieved as warriors who rarely leave Ultramar, marching round parade grounds in full dress. This is far from the truth as they're one of the hardest working chapters out there.

Maybe this was intended to provide an actual character flaw so they aren't Mary Sues, but the best Space Marines ever shouldn't be anything but that, right?

SMURFS ARE FEThiNG SHOWOFFS! THEIR PRIMARCH IS NOT GREAT!

DreadlordME! wrote:SMURFS ARE FEThiNG SHOWOFFS! THEIR PRIMARCH IS NOT GREAT!

Show us on the doll where Guilliman touched you.

DreadlordME! wrote:SMURFS ARE FEThiNG SHOWOFFS! THEIR PRIMARCH IS NOT GREAT!

Maybe not a great fighter, but a great tactician nevertheless.
He also don't deserve all that hate because o Mr. Ward.

Deathly Angel wrote:It's due to their eternal crusade in the name of the God-Emperor; they need Legion numbers to spread humanity's perfection over the entire galaxy

Fixed that for you. The Black Templars don't acknowledge the Emperor as divine any more than any other Space Marine chapter.

Does anyone remember back in the day (2nd edition) it was mainly Blood Angels. Remember BA on the cover of 40k BOX with his powerfist, Blood Angels on the Cover of Space Crusade. At least a 1/3 of the SM mini's photographs in a WD were BA.



I think it's less fanboism, and more practicalities. It just so happens that 'Eavy Metal have one of everything in the SM Codex in Ultramarine blue, if you doubt me look at the picture galleries in C:SM. They couldn't incorporate every chapter, though I am disappointed that they didn't focus on the 10 Loyalist Legions a bit more.

When all is said and done, Guilliman wrote the codex, Ultramarines are the foremost exemplar of the Codex Astartes. It's natural that all other CHapters compare to this benchmark, like all SF are compared with the SAS as the original exemplar SF unit.