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I missed this actually.

Deathly Angel wrote:@Gree - The Imperial Fists are not just yellow Ultramarines. They have their own doctrines, traditions, and do not obey the Codex to the letter.

Yes they do. Index Astartes Imperial Fists is clear on that matter. They are not quite '''yellow Ultramarines'' but they are stated to be the epitome of Codex doctrine.

Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead. Dorn used this time to retrain the Chapter to embrace all aspects of the Codex Astartes. When they later emerged, their adherence to the Codex was matched only by the Ultramarines.

.....

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react. They retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare, although they are quite willing to engage and defeat the enemy in open battle. They will use fortifications on the defensive, but only after all more aggressive options have been exhausted. Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk.

Right from GW, there words not mine.

Heck, even as far back as Second Edition were the Fists described as a close Codex Chapter.

Second Edition Codex Ultramarines

The Imperial Fists are a Codex Chapter and follow the precepts and dogmas of that time closely.

Deathwatch Rites of Battle

The Imperial Fists adhere to the doctrines of the Codex Astartes as strictly as their brothers of the Ultramarines. Squads, companies and Chapter household are all organized according to the standards set in that mighty tome, and the chapter is fully capable of prosecuting every type of warfare-from orbital drops to mechanized assaults- they are the epitome of a Codex Chapter.

Deathly Angel wrote: They are still a defensive siege orientated Chapter who obey their own Primarch's teachings.

They are a Codex Chapter noted to follow it very closely. They retain skill at seiges, but follow the Codex doctrines of being tactically flexible first and foremost.

Deathly Angel wrote: And Guilliman's Ultramarines are not better the the Imperial Fists, or any other Legion for that matter.

I never claimed they were superior, so I’m not sure what you are talking about.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. The codex is guidelines. It would propose a method of doing something. It cannot go into the detail you seem to think it can. Warfare is too chaotic for any physical book to hold every answer to every possible situation.

I never claimed it can go into exact detail of everything. I even pulled up the quote for it to be guidelines. That’s exactly what I’m claiming. Did you not read my first post in this thread?

im2randomghgh wrote:

2. A statement contradicting that it's outdated? Your English is abominable.

So in other words you can’t provide the statement.

im2randomghgh wrote:

3. You were saying they did comparatively little. While the Ultramarines were out acting like red cross, the Imperial Fists were ravaging the traitor legion, getting gak done.

The Ultramarines were also fighting the traitors, their quote says that. They participated in a decade of total war. It was the Ultramarines who took out the Olympia garrison.

im2randomghgh wrote:

4. Index Astartes II: Imperial Fists pg. 14-15

Not sure what you are addressing here.

im2randomghgh wrote:

He was picking them apart before reinforcements arrived, and it doesn't even say they arrived at all.

And he died while doing it, he caused the damage that helped lead to the Imperial Navy coming in and destroying them, but he did not single handed cause their destruction.

im2randomghgh wrote:

6. It still doesn't matter, while the IF were at war, you know that thing astartes are bred for? Yeah that, while the IF were doing that, the ultramarines were rebuilding. Not defending, rebuilding. They were not waging war in any form, they were writing a book!

Index Astartes Ultramarines would contradict you, as would the Space Marine Codex.

I will post the IA example since you have seem to have missed it.

He despatched his Legion throughout the galaxy to stem the tide of invasion and unrest, holding the fragile Imperium together through a time of great danger. Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field. After almost a decade of total war, stability was restored to the galaxy and the philosophies of the Ultramarines' way of war had permeated almost every Legion. Under Guilliman's guidance, the holy Codex Astartes was taking shape and its doctrines would shape every future Space Marine force and lay the foundations for the Imperium's conventional military might.

Pg. 13 of the Marine Codex.

‘’The confusion and disorder following the Horus Heresy had left the Imperium weak and vulnerable Everywhere the enemies of mankind prepared to attack. Many worlds remained in the grip of Chaos. Into this breach stepped Roboute Guilliman and the Ultramarines found themselves divided and dispatched all over the Imperium in a desperate effort to stem the tide of invasion and unrest.

The Ultramarines successfully held the Imperium together during a tiem of intense danger. Macragge was able to supply new recruits at such a rather that before long the Ultramarines alone accounted for more than half the total number of Space Marines, and few systems where their heroism was unnoticed.

Within a decade, order was restored to the Imperium. Even as the Ultramarines reconquered, a new theory of warfare was emerging.

The Codex is quite clear. The Ultramarines participated quite heavily in the fighting.

IA Iron Warriors

The rest of the Iron Warriors defended their small empire based on Olympia, but there was no refuge from the retribution of the loyalist Legions. The Imperial Fists supported the Ultramarines in a decade-long campaign to liberate the subjugated worlds. They discovered the Iron Warriors to be like a barbed hook that, once embedded into a victim, could only be removed with great risk of injuring the patient further. The Olympia garrison held out for two years, eventually triggering their missile stockpiles when defeat was unavoidable. They left a blasted wasteland that, like the other Traitor Legion home worlds, was declared Perdita.

The Ultramarines are clearly mentioned as taking apart in the Olympia campaign, curiously the Imperial Fists are mentioned in a supporting role, implying that the Ultramarines are conducting the main campaign

im2randomghgh wrote:

And your own quotes seem to demonstrate that they were taking quantity rather than quality of troops at that point.

Where does it indicate at all that they were taking quantity instead of quality? The Ultramarines were spread all over the galaxy. Their brother Legions had been decimated. It’s only logical that they recruit more Astartes to cover more ground. There is nothing that even remotely implies the Ultramarines are of inferior stock.

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. I didn't say they deploy more. I said they'd likely have more, in their armouries. Which would mean easier/faster to replace heavy weapons lost in combat, and most likely a higher quantity of master crafted weapons.

You said ‘’utilize’’, not ‘’they possess more equipment’’ indicating they operate said equipment in greater number rather than just having more of them.

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. It means they are very, very likely to be better. Most chapters practice against combat servitors in cages, practicing against astartes would be much more helpful.

Astartes practice against servitor as part of their training, but why would other Astartes chapters not fight against other Astartes?

im2randomghgh wrote:
, they have their feet in cement blocks while they do it, meaning they can do a lot without moving even having to circle their opponents, since realistically you can't circle your opponent on a battlefield, only in duels.

Realistically you certainly can circle your opponent on a battlefield. It’s a maneuver called flanking. Why would they be unable to?

And also, footwork is a very important part of real life swordsmanship, so restricting your movement is a bad idea. But of course the example provided in Space Marine is an honor duel, not a training one. which as I recall was stopped at first blood.

im2randomghgh wrote:

3. It would make them more resistant to it. The human body adapts to harsh circumstances.

And if they were more resistant to it then it would defeat the entire purpose of the pain glove being a punishment device now wouldn’t it?

If I stab myself in the arm, wait for it to heal and do it over and over again, it will still hurt the arm very time, unless I damaged a nerve.

1. We actually agree on something?!?!?!

2. So in other words, ask your question in other words.

3. And the IF, you proved. Also, The IF are stated as having destroyed "fortress upon fortress", so this one example of Ultrasmurfs doing anything (aided by the IF, no less) is less than astounding.

4. You asked where I got my quote about the IF crusading in the aftermath of the Heresy. That's the source.

5. We don't know it was the navy. The Imperial Fists recovered his body, meaning the terminator company he brought with him continued the fight. And IIRC he brought the phalanx, which would be wrecking face.

I'm tired, Im not going through that all. You make your posts so long, are you doing this to waste my time? I'll speak to the swordsman ship thing then PM me the others if you care THAT much.

As for the honour duels, being able to fight WITHOUT footwork means you'll have that much more of an advantage with it. At my hockey practices, we use weighted pucks, so that when we use the regular ones, we can shoot HARD.

As for flanking, that applies more to duels or to entire units, as within a unit, it doesn't work very well. Fighting in formation makes it hard to flank an individual. Duhh.

im2randomghgh wrote:

2. So in other words, ask your question in other words.

Can you please provide context? I’m not sure what you are addressing here.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Also, The IF are stated as having destroyed "fortress upon fortress",

How does that mean the Ultramarines did nothing?

im2randomghgh wrote:

so this one example of Ultrasmurfs doing anything (aided by the IF, no less) is less than astounding.

Fortunately we have more than one example, Cleary illustrated by the quote from the Codex of the Ultramarines engaging in combat and reconquest all over the Imperium.

im2randomghgh wrote:
4. You asked where I got my quote about the IF crusading in the aftermath of the Heresy. That's the source.

Where did I ask you for a quote about them crusading after the Heresy?

im2randomghgh wrote:
5. We don't know it was the navy.

We do it’s explicitly stated.

IA Imperial Fists

There was no Chaos attack on Cadia. The Imperial Navy arrived in force while the Traitors were still licking their wounds. Released by the sudden disappearance of Ulthwe, Phalanx and the Imperial Fists led the Imperial counter-strike. They caught the Chaos fleet in the midst of repairs and routed it decisively. Even without their Primarch, the Imperial Fists were able to get to the right place at the right time. They boarded the Sword of Sacrilege before it could flee and recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis, their holiest icon, and serves as a constant reminder of the commitment expected of a Space Marine.

im2randomghgh wrote:

I'm tired, Im not going through that all. You make your posts so long, are you doing this to waste my time?

I make them long in order to counter each and every one of your points and illustrate what points I am addressing.

im2randomghgh wrote:

As for the honour duels, being able to fight WITHOUT footwork means you'll have that much more of an advantage with it. At my hockey practices, we use weighted pucks, so that when we use the regular ones, we can shoot HARD.

But you still practice with pucks of a sort. The Fists don’t even move so how can they exercise their leg muscles?

im2randomghgh wrote:

As for flanking, that applies more to duels or to entire units, as within a unit, it doesn't work very well. Fighting in formation makes it hard to flank an individual. Duhh.

Are you suggesting that Astartes line up shoulder to shoulder and fight like a Macedonian Phalanx? Because that’s the only situation of which I can think it would be hard to flank. In all other situations there is nothing stopping you from darting around an enemy’s side to stab at his side.

The Ultramarines, with their superior understanding of military tactics, knew that Terra had enough plot armour to survive any assault by the traitors fallen to chaos, and prepared to support the worlds of men following Horus' defeat.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

2. So in other words, ask your question in other words.

Can you please provide context? I’m not sure what you are addressing here.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Also, The IF are stated as having destroyed "fortress upon fortress",

How does that mean the Ultramarines did nothing?

im2randomghgh wrote:

so this one example of Ultrasmurfs doing anything (aided by the IF, no less) is less than astounding.

Fortunately we have more than one example, Cleary illustrated by the quote from the Codex of the Ultramarines engaging in combat and reconquest all over the Imperium.

im2randomghgh wrote:
4. You asked where I got my quote about the IF crusading in the aftermath of the Heresy. That's the source.

Where did I ask you for a quote about them crusading after the Heresy?

im2randomghgh wrote:
5. We don't know it was the navy.

We do it’s explicitly stated.

IA Imperial Fists

There was no Chaos attack on Cadia. The Imperial Navy arrived in force while the Traitors were still licking their wounds. Released by the sudden disappearance of Ulthwe, Phalanx and the Imperial Fists led the Imperial counter-strike. They caught the Chaos fleet in the midst of repairs and routed it decisively. Even without their Primarch, the Imperial Fists were able to get to the right place at the right time. They boarded the Sword of Sacrilege before it could flee and recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis, their holiest icon, and serves as a constant reminder of the commitment expected of a Space Marine.

im2randomghgh wrote:

I'm tired, Im not going through that all. You make your posts so long, are you doing this to waste my time?

I make them long in order to counter each and every one of your points and illustrate what points I am addressing.

im2randomghgh wrote:

As for the honour duels, being able to fight WITHOUT footwork means you'll have that much more of an advantage with it. At my hockey practices, we use weighted pucks, so that when we use the regular ones, we can shoot HARD.

But you still practice with pucks of a sort. The Fists don’t even move so how can they exercise their leg muscles?

im2randomghgh wrote:

As for flanking, that applies more to duels or to entire units, as within a unit, it doesn't work very well. Fighting in formation makes it hard to flank an individual. Duhh.

Are you suggesting that Astartes line up shoulder to shoulder and fight like a Macedonian Phalanx? Because that’s the only situation of which I can think it would be hard to flank. In all other situations there is nothing stopping you from darting around an enemy’s side to stab at his side.

1. If you would stop cutting arguments up, this wouldn't be a problem. or you could, you know, scroll.

2. That means the IF did more.

3. Clearly illustrated is the fact that this is the only battle worth naming,

4.

Where is this quote from?

That's what you said, in the ~middle of page 2.

5. It says the Navy arrived in force. It also says the IF, aboard the Phalanx, took the fight to the traitors. In fact it doesn't even explicitly mention the navy doing anything.

6. Concision is a useful skill.

7. You are seriously worried about their legs being weak? The rest of their training would be more or less the same as any other space marines, except with more trench-digging

8. In brothers of the snake they did exactly that. Also, think about the enemies they face. Orks. A green tide means stepping out of the way of one ork and into the way of another. Same with nids. And Guard Mob. And kroot. The closest real-life equivalent would be trying that during a highland charge. You would die. And even against more "dignified" opponents, and out of formation, you are fighting as a squad. Step out of the line, and you open a gap an enemy can step through. You simply cannot sidestep in combat. In duels, yes. Not in combat.

Apologies, I tried to get this out sooner but the forum is being very slow.

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. If you would stop cutting arguments up, this wouldn't be a problem..

This is rather standard forum procedure, apeparantly only you have the problem.

Of course if you simply told me what points yuu where adressing we would not have a problem.

im2randomghgh wrote:

or you could, you know, scroll.

It is still unclear even when going over both posts. I have already told you this.

im2randomghgh wrote:

2. That means the IF did more.

No it does not. It simply states they leveled fortress after fortress. Not that they did more than the Ultramarines.

im2randomghgh wrote:
3. Clearly illustrated is the fact that this is the only battle worth naming,

No it does not. We have maybe, two or three battles detailed from the Scouring. I would assume that we would have many more battles than two or three mentioned. We have no indication that this is the only battle worth naming, quite the opposite.

Everywhere the enemies of mankind prepared to attack. Many worlds remained in the grip of Chaos. Into this breach stepped Roboute Guilliman and the Ultramarines. Always the largest Legion, the Ultramarines found themselves divided and dispatched all over the Imperium in a desparate effort to stem the tide of the unrest.
The Ultramarines successfully held the Imperium together during a time of intense danger. Macragge was able to supply new recruits at such a rate that before long the Ultramarines alone accounted for more than half the total number of Space Marines, and few were the systems where their heroism went unnoticed."

This quote quite clearly proves the Ultramarine involvement is quite major in the Scouring.

im2randomghgh wrote:
5. It says the Navy arrived in force. It also says the IF, aboard the Phalanx, took the fight to the traitors. In fact it doesn't even explicitly mention the navy doing anything.

Wow, then the Navy obviously sat around doing nothing with their big battlefleet while a chaos fleet was right in front of them.

im2randomghgh wrote:
6. Concision is a useful skill.

And this is an example of why I’m having trouble understanding your format. What are you addressing here?

im2randomghgh wrote:

7. You are seriously worried about their legs being weak? The rest of their training would be more or less the same as any other space marines, except with more trench-digging

Not that the legs will get weak, but if they don’t practice the combat moves with the legs they won’t get good with them. If oyu don't practicy you won't get good at it.

im2randomghgh wrote:

8. In brothers of the snake they did exactly that. Also, think about the enemies they face.

I thought you didn’t take Black Library as canon? You’ve done this twice now.

Oh, and you have one example of Astartes fighting in a Phalanx. Now compare that to all the others who don't fight in a Phalanx.

im2randomghgh wrote:
A green tide means stepping out of the way of one ork and into the way of another. Same with nids. And Guard Mob. And kroot..

Not necessarily, such forces will not always be tightly packed.

Of ocurse you seem to assume an ork woudl be literally an inch away from another, which I find unlikely.

im2randomghgh wrote:

And even against more "dignified" opponents, and out of formation, you are fighting as a squad. Step out of the line, and you open a gap an enemy can step through. You simply cannot sidestep in combat. In duels, yes. Not in combat.

Space Marine squads are generally deployed in loose formation. There is no line. The Brothers of the Snake example is an exception rather than the rule.

Gree wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Or the fact the Imperial Fists space Marine Legion did it both ways, provided chapters and a crusading host.
Flexibility through application and non-application of the codex at the same time.

Except that's not how they are described as well. Fists commanders Pre-Codex were noted as unimaginative and straightforward when planning and leading. It’s only when they adopted the Codex did they get more flexible.

Why don't you take the time to consider the point made before jumping to IA and repeating only those parts you seem to like ?
Look, your idea of flexibility through codex use doesn't fly. A codex is nice to standardize things, to lay down some rules to follow.
But flexibility? Depends on the Personality of the marine. Not on the book he read.

Going to expand on the single line I put there, as it seems neccessary.

Gree wrote:
IA fists

Initially, the Imperial Fists were an inflexible formation; each Company had an identical organisation and Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative. Overall planning was excellent, however, and this, coupled with the unshakeable determination of the individual Fists, made them an excellent assault formation against static defences.

In the immediate aftermath of the Heresy, the Imperial Fists became noticeably fiercer in their approach -attacking with virtually no reconnaissance and fighting on when a tactical withdrawal would have been wiser. With their adoption of the Codex Astartes, this tendency was less evident, although their determination was undiminished. Some of the more fanatical Battle Brothers had departed to become Black Templars - a Chapter on permanent crusade. Many of the more recent initiates, less rooted in the traditions and philosophy of the Fists, had departed to found the Crimson Fists. They quickly developed a reputation and a legacy of their own which was also a source of pride for the Imperial Fists. After the carnage of the Iron Cage, what remained was a hardened, veteran force fully able to embrace the concepts of the Codex Astartes.

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react. They retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare, although they are quite willing to engage and defeat the enemy in open battle. They will use fortifications on the defensive, but only after all more aggressive options have been exhausted. Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk.

Did you even read IA or just browse over it?

>So "each Company had an identical organisation" is inflexible while codex astartes companies with identical organisation is flexible...
Maybe the point of the IF was their organization as Legion cannot be the same as an organization as chapter?
You know, chapters are small forces to intercept threats, to rapidly react where Legions were meant to conquer and to lead massive formations in lenghty crusades far away from bases.
Now provide a source that tells us the organization of the UM pre-codex. .....wait. don't. I think I should request something where you got a chance.

> the "Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative". Thats a personal trait and at worst the influence of geneseed or Primarch.
All things a codex would not change in any way or form.
IMO someone got the heritage of Dorn wrong and mistook following orders as unimaginative.
Because you can't defend very well if you can't imagine how your defenses could be overcome.
The training on a wide range of environments and battlefields was obviously cut back when the IF-Legion was ordered home to fortify the Palace.
Dorn split up his Legion according to his marines abilities.
Those who wouldn't follow the codex became BT, those able to adapt moved to CF and those he had left and who suffered from the IF typical tendency of fighting to the last and an urge to punish themselves followed him into the iron cage, to return anew.
This leads to IF in both camps, codex adherent and codex ignoring. Like I said, the IF tread on the path of eternal crusade and acting as codex chapter , but this does not mean the part who adopted the codex is more flexible than those who did not.
Are IF, CF or BT lead by unimaginative commanders ?

Gree wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
The codex astartes for example, was complete and the ultramarines followed it to the letter. ( IA ), yet the HH-series had the author of said CA creating it as guidelines and open to interpretation.

Said story was written by McNeill, whose interpretation of the Codex is frankly insane. (See my example about the Codex not containing basic protocols of improvised demolitions.)

McNeill isn't writing insane interpretations. He just got IA right...Which stated UM follow it "to the letter" .
Maybe you should read the whole story?
Actual timeline: 2 officers having a different take on the codex. 1 deems it should be strict 'raw' , the other prefers it beeing used 'rai'.
HH timeline: roboute gullyman himself explains the codex he wrote is guidelines and open to interpretation.
So whats wrong with this?
Is it a problem to accept the 10 millenia inbetween may have hardend the open minded approach to the codex into a 'holy writ of the Primarch' PoV by some?
I see nothing insane .

Gree wrote:
The Codex is updated over the centuries.

Space Marine Codex, pg. 9

As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.

Note the term guidelines. This is form the modern Marine Codex and has been reprinted multiple times in the past.

Note the term holy writ and sanctified by the Emperor.
Both terms can mislead.
And we know how easy it is to start a war based upon a text taken literally and everyone who questions this PoV declared heretic.
Basically mcneill didn't show us the codex as holy tome but advice given with best intend to be expanded upon in time.

Gree wrote:Basically McNeill assumed that strict adherence to doctrine must mean the doctrine itself must be strict.

Doctrine ? Thats IG

Basically a strict doctrine is just asking to be used in a story. What else could get a character sent off from his chapter without a real offense
to Primarch and/or Emperor ?

Gree wrote:And why would it be outdated?

IA is outdated in several places.
I am not liking it as it provided details and a take on the astartes that didn't favor a legion but presented them all.

Codex Astartes depends on the copy of it and the update cycles.
Consider the issue of keeping a 1000 chapters updated without communication guaranteed to them all the time.
The codex version used could differ and the add-ons may too.

Yes I doubt there are regular galaxy-wide updates of the codex.

[

1hadhq wrote:
Why don't you take the time to consider the point made before jumping to IA and repeating only those parts you seem to like ?

I have considered the point.

1hadhq wrote:
Look, your idea of flexibility through codex use doesn't fly. A codex is nice to standardize things, to lay down some rules to follow.
But flexibility? Depends on the Personality of the marine. Not on the book he read.

Unfortunately the actual fluff would disagree with you.

IA Fists

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react.

1hadhq wrote:
Did you even read IA or just browse over it?

I did. How does that contradict my point?

1hadhq wrote:
Maybe the point of the IF was their organization as Legion cannot be the same as an organization as chapter?

Yes, I know that. How does that contradict my point?

1hadhq wrote:
You know, chapters are small forces to intercept threats, to rapidly react where Legions were meant to conquer and to lead massive formations in lenghty crusades far away from bases.

Again, how does that contradict my point? It wont’ change anything on a tactical level.

1hadhq wrote:

> the "Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative". Thats a personal trait and at worst the influence of geneseed or Primarch.

That is a product of Pre-Heresy doctrine, not gene-influence.

1hadhq wrote:
All things a codex would not change in any way or form.

Except we have an explicit statement that is did. You are wrong.

Here, I'll post the quote again.

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react.

1hadhq wrote:
Because you can't defend very well if you can't imagine how your defenses could be overcome.

They were unimaginative, not completely without imagination. But the Imdex Astartes credits their siege skills to their good planning and determination.

1hadhq wrote:
This leads to IF in both camps, codex adherent and codex ignoring.
.

No it does not, we have an explicit statement in the article that the Fists are the epitome of Codex Doctrine.

Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead. Dorn used this time to retrain the Chapter to embrace all aspects of the Codex Astartes. When they later emerged, their adherence to the Codex was matched only by the Ultramarines.

Some of the more fanatical Battle Brothers had departed to become Black Templars - a Chapter on permanent crusade. Many of the more recent initiates, less rooted in the traditions and philosophy of the Fists, had departed to found the Crimson Fists. They quickly developed a reputation and a legacy of their own which was also a source of pride for the Imperial Fists. After the carnage of the Iron Cage, what remained was a hardened, veteran force fully able to embrace the concepts of the Codex Astartes.

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react.

1hadhq wrote:
Like I said, the IF tread on the path of eternal crusade and acting as codex chapter , but this does not mean the part who adopted the codex is more flexible than those who did not.
.

The Imperial Fists are a Codex chapter in the entirety. Their is no part of them that does not adopt the Codex. you can be a crusading chapter and still follow the Codex closely.

1hadhq wrote:
Are IF, CF or BT lead by unimaginative commanders ?

The Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists would not since they adopted the Codex Astartes. The Black Templars would be predictable in comparison.

1hadhq wrote:

McNeill isn't writing insane interpretations. He just got IA right...Which stated UM follow it "to the letter" .

No he did not, unless you are claiming that the Codex Astartes does not contain things as basic as improvised demolitions.

And no, the Ultramarines rigidly adhere to the tenants of the Codex Astartes. Considering the Codex Astartes advocates flexibility that is not a bad thing.

1hadhq wrote:
Maybe you should read the whole story?

Actual timeline: 2 officers having a different take on the codex. 1 deems it should be strict 'raw' , the other prefers it beeing used 'rai'.

No, that’s not what happened at all. It is stated quite clearly by all parties that the Codex does not have the precedent.

Something clicked in Uriel's head and he stopped.
No, it was insane, utterly insane and suicidal. But it could work. He tried to remember a precedent in the Codex Astartes,but came up with nothing. Could it be done? A frag wouldn't do it and only the assault troops had been issued with kraks.He checked his grenade dispenser. He had one breaching charge left.
(...)
'The assault troops have krak grenades. If we can attach some to one of the melta charges on the bridge supports it could setof a chain reaction with the others!'
Idaeus considered the idea for a second then shrugged. 'It's not much of a plan, but what choice do we have?'
'None.' said Uriel bluntly. Idaeus nodded and hunkered down in the sandbags, snatching out his battered vox. Hurriedly, heexplained Uriel's plan to the sergeant of the assault troopers, receiving confirmation as to its feasibility of execution.
Idaeus raised his head and locked his gaze with Uriel. 'You picked a hell of a time to start thinking outside the Codex,sergeant.'
'Better late than never, captain.'

Legends of the Space Marines

The explosives were rigged, but Techmarine Tomasin had died in the initial attack. Without his detonator mechanism, we had no way of triggering the charges to destroy the bridge. During the night, Captain Idaeus had sent our assault squads to attempt to detonate the explosives manually using krak grenades. They were unsuccessful, but the principle was sound.”
“I’m sorry, Captain Ventris, I don’t understand,” said Sicarius, cocking his head to one side.
“Don’t understand what?”
“This plan of Idaeus’, it is obviously one that does not refer to the tactica of the Codex Astartes. Are you sure it was his plan?”
Uriel was about to answer that of course it was, when he was seized by a sudden memory of the frantic battle on bridge two-four. Sicarius smiled and Uriel saw how deftly he had been manoeuvred into this admission of guilt. Slowly he shook his head.
“No, it was not Captain Idaeus’ plan,” he said. “It was mine.”

Both Sicarius and Ventris state that the Codex does not have a precedent to do that. Now why would the Codex not have something as simple and basic as that? why would Guilliman not include that?

1hadhq wrote:
HH timeline: roboute gullyman himself explains the codex he wrote is guidelines and open to interpretation.

Again, written by McNeill, who has a daft interpretation of what the Codex contains.

1hadhq wrote:
Is it a problem to accept the 10 millenia inbetween may have hardend the open minded approach to the codex into a 'holy writ of the Primarch' PoV by some?

Except it being a holy writ should not affect flexibility at all. The codex is still advocating flexibility and the best possible solution for the problem.

The Ultramarines have always strictly followed the Codex. That is not a new development.

1hadhq wrote:
Note the term holy writ and sanctified by the Emperor.

How does that make the codex inflexible?

1hadhq wrote:
Basically mcneill didn't show us the codex as holy tome but advice given with best intend to be expanded upon in time.

It beign a holy tome does not change it’s flexibility.

In the Space Marine Codex the Codex is a set of organizational and tactical guidelines that the Ultramarine adhere strictly to. That does not mean the doctrine itself is strict, as McNeill suggested. If the Codex advocates flexibility and the best possible solution of things then following it strictly would be a good thing. Unfortunately McNeill does not seem to think it contains basic things like demolition protocols.

1hadhq wrote:
IA is outdated in several places.

No it is not, that is your opinion.

CpatTom wrote:The Ultramarines, with their superior understanding of military tactics, knew that Terra had enough plot armour to survive any assault by the traitors fallen to chaos, and prepared to support the worlds of men following Horus' defeat.

Gree wrote:

I have considered the point.

Proof?

Gree wrote:
Unfortunately the actual fluff would disagree with you.

The actual fluff would not.
Your interpretation of old IA articles does.

Gree wrote:
I did. How does that contradict my point?

Just have the impression you like quote-boxes too much.

Gree wrote:Yes, I know that. How does that contradict my point?

Which point?
The one consisting of repeat yourself until people stop to care for what you say?

Gree wrote:
Again, how does that contradict my point? It wont’ change anything on a tactical level.

Won't ? change?

Gree wrote:
That is a product of Pre-Heresy doctrine, not gene-influence.

Evasive maneuvers? Care to adress any post without cutting it to shreds and bland untrue statements as reply?

Gree wrote:
Except we have an explicit statement that is did. You are wrong.

Except we have just your statements and those won't become right by consistent posting of the same quote.
Until you start to understand the text you quoted.

Gree wrote:
They were unimaginative, not completely without imagination. But the Imdex Astartes credits their siege skills to their good planning and determination.

So planning without imagination?
You could take any unimaginative guard officer, alter the tactica imperialis until it is so geared to imaginative behaviour its unbelievable and indoctrinate said officer until he cannot resist to use his new doctrine and implanted behaviour and still it would depend on the person and not the book.

Gree wrote:
No it does not.

Yes it does.

Gree wrote:The Imperial Fists are a Codex chapter in the entirety. Their is no part of them that does not adopt the Codex. you can be a crusading chapter and still follow the Codex closely.

Did you even spot the difference of Imperial Fists space marine Legion and Imperial Fists chapter ?
I doubt it...

Gree wrote:
The Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists would not since they adopted the Codex Astartes. The Black Templars would be predictable in comparison.

Predictable based on what exactly?
A codex?

Gree wrote:
No he did not, unless you are claiming that the Codex Astartes does not contain things as basic as improvised demolitions.

And no, the Ultramarines rigidly adhere to the tenants of the Codex Astartes. Considering the Codex Astartes advocates flexibility that is not a bad thing.

A mcneill hater?
Because thats all I see here.
Codex Astartes is in your beloved IA series of articles more of a holy writ to be followed literally than it is now.

Gree wrote:
No, that’s not what happened at all. It is stated quite clearly by all parties that the Codex does not have the precedent.

Is there another dakka ? A paralell forum ?
Since I don't know where you get this idea from as I didn't say anything about precedent.

Gree wrote:
Both Sicarius and Ventris state that the Codex does not have a precedent to do that. Now why would the Codex not have something as simple and basic as that? why would Guilliman not include that?

HH - "age of darkness" could be your friend.

OtoH codex astartes is maybe as incomplete as many other old tomes. Pages lost....

Gree wrote:
Again, written by McNeill, who has a daft interpretation of what the Codex contains.

Again, not invalidated as either any author who was part of the design team and Bl is taken as possible source or you rapidly run out of
sources as one poster may always dislike one author for different reasons.

Gree wrote:
Except it being a holy writ should not affect flexibility at all. The codex is still advocating flexibility and the best possible solution for the problem.

Have you read the codex astartes?
No?
How do you know it provides the best possible solution for a problem?

Gree wrote:
In the Space Marine Codex the Codex is a set of organizational and tactical guidelines that the Ultramarine adhere strictly to. That does not mean the doctrine itself is strict, as McNeill suggested. If the Codex advocates flexibility and the best possible solution of things then following it strictly would be a good thing. Unfortunately McNeill does not seem to think it contains basic things like demolition protocols.

The moment you keep on babbling of best possible solution is the moment you gave up on interpretation and flexibility.
Because how can you imagine a more bestest solution when the best is already available?
This creates only unimaginative minions who follow orders and doctrines like brainwashed zombies.

Gree wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
IA is outdated in several places.

No it is not, that is your opinion.

Not going to quote the whole thing ( 4 books ).
The issues of altered fluff are there for those who see them.
So best luck, keeping your blindfold on.

1hadhq wrote:

Gree wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Or the fact the Imperial Fists space Marine Legion did it both ways, provided chapters and a crusading host.
Flexibility through application and non-application of the codex at the same time.

Except that's not how they are described as well. Fists commanders Pre-Codex were noted as unimaginative and straightforward when planning and leading. It’s only when they adopted the Codex did they get more flexible.

Why don't you take the time to consider the point made before jumping to IA and repeating only those parts you seem to like ?
Look, your idea of flexibility through codex use doesn't fly. A codex is nice to standardize things, to lay down some rules to follow.
But flexibility? Depends on the Personality of the marine. Not on the book he read.

Going to expand on the single line I put there, as it seems neccessary.

Gree wrote:
IA fists

Initially, the Imperial Fists were an inflexible formation; each Company had an identical organisation and Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative. Overall planning was excellent, however, and this, coupled with the unshakeable determination of the individual Fists, made them an excellent assault formation against static defences.

In the immediate aftermath of the Heresy, the Imperial Fists became noticeably fiercer in their approach -attacking with virtually no reconnaissance and fighting on when a tactical withdrawal would have been wiser. With their adoption of the Codex Astartes, this tendency was less evident, although their determination was undiminished. Some of the more fanatical Battle Brothers had departed to become Black Templars - a Chapter on permanent crusade. Many of the more recent initiates, less rooted in the traditions and philosophy of the Fists, had departed to found the Crimson Fists. They quickly developed a reputation and a legacy of their own which was also a source of pride for the Imperial Fists. After the carnage of the Iron Cage, what remained was a hardened, veteran force fully able to embrace the concepts of the Codex Astartes.

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react. They retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare, although they are quite willing to engage and defeat the enemy in open battle. They will use fortifications on the defensive, but only after all more aggressive options have been exhausted. Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk.

Did you even read IA or just browse over it?

>So "each Company had an identical organisation" is inflexible while codex astartes companies with identical organisation is flexible...
Maybe the point of the IF was their organization as Legion cannot be the same as an organization as chapter?
You know, chapters are small forces to intercept threats, to rapidly react where Legions were meant to conquer and to lead massive formations in lenghty crusades far away from bases.
Now provide a source that tells us the organization of the UM pre-codex. .....wait. don't. I think I should request something where you got a chance.

> the "Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative". Thats a personal trait and at worst the influence of geneseed or Primarch.
All things a codex would not change in any way or form.
IMO someone got the heritage of Dorn wrong and mistook following orders as unimaginative.
Because you can't defend very well if you can't imagine how your defenses could be overcome.
The training on a wide range of environments and battlefields was obviously cut back when the IF-Legion was ordered home to fortify the Palace.
Dorn split up his Legion according to his marines abilities.
Those who wouldn't follow the codex became BT, those able to adapt moved to CF and those he had left and who suffered from the IF typical tendency of fighting to the last and an urge to punish themselves followed him into the iron cage, to return anew.
This leads to IF in both camps, codex adherent and codex ignoring. Like I said, the IF tread on the path of eternal crusade and acting as codex chapter , but this does not mean the part who adopted the codex is more flexible than those who did not.
Are IF, CF or BT lead by unimaginative commanders ?

Gree wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
The codex astartes for example, was complete and the ultramarines followed it to the letter. ( IA ), yet the HH-series had the author of said CA creating it as guidelines and open to interpretation.

Said story was written by McNeill, whose interpretation of the Codex is frankly insane. (See my example about the Codex not containing basic protocols of improvised demolitions.)

McNeill isn't writing insane interpretations. He just got IA right...Which stated UM follow it "to the letter" .
Maybe you should read the whole story?
Actual timeline: 2 officers having a different take on the codex. 1 deems it should be strict 'raw' , the other prefers it beeing used 'rai'.
HH timeline: roboute gullyman himself explains the codex he wrote is guidelines and open to interpretation.
So whats wrong with this?
Is it a problem to accept the 10 millenia inbetween may have hardend the open minded approach to the codex into a 'holy writ of the Primarch' PoV by some?
I see nothing insane .

Gree wrote:
The Codex is updated over the centuries.

Space Marine Codex, pg. 9

As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.

Note the term guidelines. This is form the modern Marine Codex and has been reprinted multiple times in the past.

Note the term holy writ and sanctified by the Emperor.
Both terms can mislead.
And we know how easy it is to start a war based upon a text taken literally and everyone who questions this PoV declared heretic.
Basically mcneill didn't show us the codex as holy tome but advice given with best intend to be expanded upon in time.

Gree wrote:Basically McNeill assumed that strict adherence to doctrine must mean the doctrine itself must be strict.

Doctrine ? Thats IG

Basically a strict doctrine is just asking to be used in a story. What else could get a character sent off from his chapter without a real offense
to Primarch and/or Emperor ?

Gree wrote:And why would it be outdated?

IA is outdated in several places.
I am not liking it as it provided details and a take on the astartes that didn't favor a legion but presented them all.

Codex Astartes depends on the copy of it and the update cycles.
Consider the issue of keeping a 1000 chapters updated without communication guaranteed to them all the time.
The codex version used could differ and the add-ons may too.

Yes I doubt there are regular galaxy-wide updates of the codex.

TL;DR, Gree is wrong.

Although one thing you got wrong were the reasons for the IF successor splits. Black Templars were the fanatics, IF the most loyal, Soul Drinkers the shock assault specialist, CF the rational.

Otherwise, +1!

I am going to parapharase my responses with quotes from another poster on another forum that I happen to agree with in this case.

1hadhq wrote:
Proof?

My entire argument?

1hadhq wrote:
The actual fluff would not.

The Index Astartes is the actual fluff.

1hadhq wrote:
Your interpretation of old IA articles does.

It is not my interpretation but flat out explicitly stated.

1hadhq wrote:
Won't ? change?

A squad belonging to a Space Marine Chapter using the Codex Astartes will use the same tactics for clearing a building even you increased the Chapter to Legion size.

1hadhq wrote:
Evasive maneuvers? Care to adress any post without cutting it to shreds and bland untrue statements as reply?

I have already addressed your point. You have simply chosen to ignore it.

1hadhq wrote:
So planning without imagination?

That is what the Index Astartes states.

1hadhq wrote:
You could take any unimaginative guard officer, alter the tactica imperialis until it is so geared to imaginative behaviour its unbelievable and indoctrinate said officer until he cannot resist to use his new doctrine and implanted behaviour and still it would depend on the person and not the book.

And what if the book said ‘’use flexible tactics and think for yourself?’’

1hadhq wrote:
Yes it does.

Mind offering an actual argument instead of something you made up?

1hadhq wrote:
Did you even spot the difference of Imperial Fists space marine Legion and Imperial Fists chapter ?
I doubt it...

The Imperial Fists Space Marine Legion is unimaginative and is much larger than the Fists Space Mairne chapter who follows the Codex Astartes.

1hadhq wrote:
Predictable based on what exactly?
A codex?

The Templars favor close combat and specialize in it. Thus one can reasonably predict they will probably try and use close combat.

Every situation you can think of. You want to know what the White Scars, the Black Templars or the Iron Warriors will most likely do? You don't need a lot of intell for that. You want to know what a Codex Chapetr will do? You need intimate knowledge of a library full of warfare history, need to know their exact force dispositions and what they know about your force dispositions, and then have to take into account all the other details of this encounter, or rather, what the Codex commander knows about the details of this encounter. For every such detail the enemy commander evaluates differently than the Codex commander, it means a divergence in what the Codex commander might do and what the enemy commander predicts he will do.

And not only would it be easier to predict the actions of a divergent Chapter, it would also be possible to force them into an engagement where they cannot play to their strengths, and are forced to use tactics they are less adapt at. E.g. you could deny an Iron Warriors force the option to employ a static gunline, or engage Salamanders at range and pull back, forcing them to employ faster units and longer range weapons. Similarly, a White Scars force would feel less comfortable in an engagement where hit and run and mobile units are less useful. With a Codex Chapter on the other hand, you can not so easily create a situation they would be less capable to deal with.

Pitch the Black Templars against three very different odds. You are less likely to get three very different approaches. Or do the same with the Iron Warriors and three very different odds. Again, you are not as likely to get three very different approaches. But if you do the same with a Codex Chapter, they will use three entirely different approaches, each approach chosen specifically based on the odds in question, and not on the preferences of the commander or Chapter.

White Scars and Iron Warriors are focused heavily on particular doctrines, and a Wolf Lord usually has his favourite units or doctrines he almost allways employs. A Codex commander on the other hand will generally be prepared to employ all potential doctrines, but with the wide range of varying factors that inform a commander's choice of approaches, the history and preferrence of the commander can also be a deciding factor. Codex recommendations will rarely demand that one and only one approach can work, while other approaches cannot work at all. It will more likely suggest the approach that has proven to be empirically the most effective. In one situation, an armoured assault might have a 78% chance of success, while a Terminator teleport assault would have a 74% chance of success. Objectively, an armoured assault would be the approach of choice in this situation, and what the Codex normally would recommend. However, if the commander has a personal history of successfull Terminator actions, such as IF Captain Lysander perhaps, then this might modify the situation and make a Terminator assault the preferrable choice. In a situation where a Devastator defense would offer a 67% chance of success while a Terminator assault would offer only a 34% chance of success, this particular Codex commander probably wouldn't pick a Terminator assault over a Devastator defense. But there are situations where he, since he is more apt at certain approaches, would pick a different approach than another Codex commander would.

1hadhq wrote:
A mcneill hater?
Because thats all I see here.

So you can’t actually answer my argument.

1hadhq wrote:
Codex Astartes is in your beloved IA series of articles more of a holy writ to be followed literally than it is now.

Proof and quotes?

The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history. Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch. Others describe actual battles together with comments on the tactics employed and the decisions of the commanders of the day. As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.

Explicitly stated to be a guideline in Index Astartes: Codex Astartes. Said passage was reprinted from the Second Edition and reprinted in the 5th edition Codex.

1hadhq wrote:

Is there another dakka ? A paralell forum ?
Since I don't know where you get this idea from as I didn't say anything about precedent.

You responded to my statement about the demolition device. I answered you.

1hadhq wrote:
HH - "age of darkness" could be your friend.

That does not answer the question of why Guilliman, a superhuman military genius would not place something as basic as improvised demolitions in the Codex or that hundred of military thinkers throughout history that have contributed to the Codex have not noted such a precedence.

McNeill introduced a problem that did not exist in the first place. McNeill wrote them as misguided dogmatists when originally they were not. Originally the Ultramairnes were presented as one of the most successful and famous chapters in the Imperium and they were stated to ridgedly follow the Codex Astartes. One would logically assume Codex=good.

It had been canon since at least 2nd Edition, but probably even since late 1st Edition, that the Ultramarines adhere strictly to the teachings of their Primarch. McNeill is not introducing a change as in the Chapter only just now starting to stick rigidly to his teachings. That is what they have done for the past 10,000 years. It only now dawns on them that this is detrimental, and that the teachings of their Primarch will often steer them wrong. What McNeill has introduced is explicitly the notion that following the Codex suggestions will sometimes be detrimental, and he has demonstrated that with numerous contrived set pieces where the Codex Astartes will give insanely restrictive and broad advice that fails to consider the specific situation the protagonists are facing.

I have no problem with the Ultramarines strictly following the guidelines of the Codex Astartes. What I have a problem with is a sudden explanation that always strictly following the Codex Astartes might be a bad thing, and might cause a Chapter to lose when they could have otherwise won. What I am saying is that when the Codex Astartes makes an explicit suggestion, then that suggestion will be the most beneficial route, but in large parts the Codex will simply not be as specific. You will never have the exact same situation twice, so it would be daft to be overly specific. You will have very similar situations, so you can still learn from the past and make suggestions for future battles. But it is almost impossible to make "allways do X, and nothing else, ever" suggestions.

A Primarch having fought in the Great Crusade for 200 years, then having fought all over the galaxy during the Scouring, then having led a Chapter for the remaining 100 years should have known this. Any Space Marine commander of 50+ years of service should know this. The Codex cannot account for every eventuality and every combination of circumstances immaginable, and therefor can on large parts only deal with generalities or basic situations. It is part of McNeills own premise that the Codex includes specific dictates for generic issues, and/or that the Ultramarines interpete the general suggestions to be as specific. He describes a Codex Astartes to us and sets the Codex up to fail, essentially. The Codex is only needlessly restrictive, or only interpreted in such a manner, where McNeill says it is.

I would find this implausible if the Codex Astartes had been written, and was then inpterpreted, by humans who were supposed to be adapt at military matters. It outright defies my suspension of disbelief if a semi-devine military mastermind would write it in such a way, or if beings with an enhanced intellect, tooled for nothing but a life of war, would interprete it that way.

The lore had always described the Ultramarines as strictly following the Codex doctrines. McNeill has interpreted that as the Codex doctrine being strict.

McNeill does not have a good interpretation of how the Codex Astartes works. The problem is not how he writes about the Ultramarines' adherence of its tenets.The Ultramarines' strict Codex adherence has allways been their main defining characteristic. But in the recent years, Graham McNeill has started to turn that strict adherence into a bad thing. To him it means they cannot deal with new threats. It means they are predictable to someone with knowledge of the Codex. But my question is, why must it mean that? And how did the Ultramarines manage to be one of the most successful Chapters for 10,000 years if strictly following the Codex is that disadvantageous?

1hadhq wrote:
OtoH codex astartes is maybe as incomplete as many other old tomes. Pages lost....

Except the Codex Astartes would have logically been copied and distributed many times for the Second Founding. I find it hard to believe all those copies could have simultaneously lost that section.

And I find it unlikely, that Ultramarines, noted for their organization ability, would be unable to keep backup copies of the Codex.

1hadhq wrote:

Again, not invalidated as either any author who was part of the design team and Bl is taken as possible source or you rapidly run out of
sources as one poster may always dislike one author for different reasons.

You are ignoring the point The Marine Codex contradicts McNeill. Which is true?

We don’t’ know, but the space Marine Codex makes a much more intelligent explanation. Unfortunately, from McNeill's work I am getting the impression that everything that is not explicitely described in the Codex is a problem for Ultramarines. The Codex does not describe improvised explosives, so it's a problem. The Codex does not describe Tyranids, so it's a problem. The Codex does not describe fighting against a force that knows the Codex. etc. And this is merely in addition to the instances in McNeill's stories where the Codex explicitely gives terrible advice.

But wait, we know that new vehicles are accepted by the Space Marines, such as the Land Raider Crusader or the Predator Anihilator. And we know that new enemies are encountered, such as the Tau, the Necrons or the Tyranids. We are also told that the Codex is constantly amended with new battle reports and articles from military thinkers of the Imperium. How does this fit with a general objection to anything not already in the Codex as portrayed in McNeill's work?

1hadhq wrote:
How do you know it provides the best possible solution for a problem?

Why wouldn’t it? Why would the Primarchs give you bad advice.

We don’t know exactly what the Codex Astartes would contain but we can make reasonable guesses.

I don't think expecting that explicit advice from the primarch should not be counter-productive is all that unreasonable. I don't expect the Codex to have a perfect solution for everything. I just don't want it to give advice that is stupid, and only by ignoring that advice would you be able to prevail. Why would the primarchs instruct you to do detrimental things? Why would they instruct you to do things that would lose you the battle? Why would you have to go against their advice to be able to win?

Look let me put it like This:

1hadhq wrote:
The moment you keep on babbling of best possible solution is the moment you gave up on interpretation and flexibility.

How have I given up? Do you actually have an argument?

The Codex Astartes does not include the "Ultramarine way", and certainly not the "one" way. It includes doctrines and treatises from other Primarchs. Sources mention contributions from Perturabo, Jonson and Russ, and other Primarchs have likely contributed as well. It might contain treatises on mobile warfare by Khan, descriptions of efficient force deployment by Corax, guidelines on wargear maintenance by Vulkan, etc.

And the main gist of the Codex is that for each situation there is a most effective approach to deal with it.

Let's say Guilliman himself had desribed a "standard" strategy for battle, while Khan had described a "mobile" strategy and Perturabo had described a "siege" strategy. A Chapter using the Codex Astartes as its guideline could then allways choose between the standard, mobile and siege strategy in every one of their battles.


Scenario 1: An Evil Sunz Waaagh attacks a world.

White Scars strategy: mobile

Iron Warriors strategy: siege

Ultramarines strategy: mobile


Scenario 2: Rebelling governour holing up in a fortified hive city.

White Scars strategy: mobile

Iron Warriors strategy: siege

Ultramarines strategy: siege


Scenario 3: Dark Eldar Raiders attack several cities of a world, claiming slaves.

White Scars strategy: mobile

Iron Warriors strategy: siege

Ultramarines strategy: standard


The extreme focus of the White Scars and the Iron Warriors has been exaggerated a bit for this example. None-the less, those forces that deviate from the Codex Astartes usually focus on a specific type of warfare, while the Codex doctrine has allways represented a balanced and all-purpose force meant to be able to apply any kind of approach.

1hadhq wrote:
Because how can you imagine a more bestest solution when the best is already available?
This creates only unimaginative minions who follow orders and doctrines like brainwashed zombies.

Why would it be? If the Codex provides the best solution but it is the commander that must put the factors together in order to figure it out.

But the Codex wouldn't just state "you are fighting Dark Eldar, so do X". It would also depend on what forces the Codex Chapter and what forces the opposition has available. If the enemy has a lot of armour, use X. But if he has a lot of assault units, do Y. Of course, if your own force includes a lot of support units, you will be more apt at approach Z, while if your force includes a lot of mobile shock unit, it will be better suited to perform approach 01. The Codex is meant to take all of those factors into account, and propose an effective strategy for the commander. If he has no assault unit, he will use a different tactic. If he intends to defend the shrine, or intends to protect the governour, he will use a different tactic. If he has a personal preference for heavy units, he will use a different tactic. If the strike force includes Terminators, he will use a different tactic than if it didn't. If his strike cruiser/battle barge is fully armed, he will use a different tactic than if it was low on stocks. If the Chapter is willing to co-ordinate with other Imperial elements such as the PDF (where the Dark Angels might not do so), he will use a different tactic.

Think of it like a filter I think it is a filter of: Enemy A + position X + wargear Y = Situation AXY

The Ultramarine Commander then filters in his own stuff (morale of men, usage of PDF/Guard, availble units, ammo, experience of his own fighting this specific enemy).

This will result in a completely different tactic towards Situation AXY then any other Commander would come to. Sicarius for example, might decide to change Situation AXY into AXZ (By eliminating the HQ), and then counter AXZ. While Uriel Ventris might take AXY for granted and use a strategy to counter AXY.

1hadhq wrote:
Not going to quote the whole thing ( 4 books ).
The issues of altered fluff are there for those who see them.
So best luck, keeping your blindfold on.

So apparently you don’t’ actually have a counterpoint or argument and are content to simply ignore GW fluff.

Nice.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:TL;DR, Gree is wrong.

Although one thing you got wrong were the reasons for the IF successor splits. Black Templars were the fanatics, IF the most loyal, Soul Drinkers the shock assault specialist, CF the rational.

Otherwise, +1!

See as your lack of response to my earlier post should I assume you concede the argument?

Longest post in the history of dakka. +1 endurance my friend. However I literally cannot make sense of the whole interaction between you and 1hadhq, it is that longwinded that no one really knows where it started or where it ends. Nice to see that it hasn't descended into the usual personal attacks though, so i think you both win on the moral side.

For my sins, my question would be where do you see the Crimson Fists fitting in between the Imperial Fists and Black Templars? I think of them as rational, pragmatist's and embody the doggedness and hardiness and tactical sense of Rogal Dorn.

Gree, I won't lie, I would never bother to do more than skim that. I will leave the actual response to 1hadhq, but I do have one point to remind you of.

IA is no longer valid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_%28Warhammer_40,000%29#Obsolete_Codexes

Right there, IA is under obsolete codices.

im2randomghgh wrote:Gree, I won't lie, I would never bother to do more than skim that. I will leave the actual response to 1hadhq, but I do have one point to remind you of.

IA is no longer valid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_%28Warhammer_40,000%29#Obsolete_Codexes

Right there, IA is under obsolete codices.

First of all that's wikipedia. Not GW.

Second of all they mean obsolete in rules, not fluff.

And third of all it is quite fortunate then I based much of my arguments off the 5th edition Codices then.

mwnciboo wrote:For my sins, my question would be where do you see the Crimson Fists fitting in between the Imperial Fists and Black Templars? I think of them as rational, pragmatist's and embody the doggedness and hardiness and tactical sense of Rogal Dorn.

The Crimson Fists are a Codex Chapter like the Imperial Fists, so they could conduct war like them.

Earlier in this thread it was posited that we don't know if the Black Templars have produced other chapters.
Are the White Templars and or Red Templars actually their decendents or is that just the rumor that has been going around?

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Gree, I won't lie, I would never bother to do more than skim that. I will leave the actual response to 1hadhq, but I do have one point to remind you of.

IA is no longer valid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_%28Warhammer_40,000%29#Obsolete_Codexes

Right there, IA is under obsolete codices.

First of all that's wikipedia. Not GW.

Second of all they mean obsolete in rules, not fluff.

And third of all it is quite fortunate then I based much of my arguments off the 5th edition Codices then.

mwnciboo wrote:For my sins, my question would be where do you see the Crimson Fists fitting in between the Imperial Fists and Black Templars? I think of them as rational, pragmatist's and embody the doggedness and hardiness and tactical sense of Rogal Dorn.

The Crimson Fists are a Codex Chapter like the Imperial Fists, so they could conduct war like them.

Actually you based an enormous chunk, easily more than half, of your argument on a single quote from IA. And whenever rules get updated, so does fluff. Otherwise fluff would never change for any faction, ever, because codices would just be little rule updates.

Also, They do not conduct war like the fists. They are not siege specialists, they are ork specialists. They are not stubborn like IF, they are practical and rational. They do not live lives based on the concept of honour alone etc.

Also, they don't have Lysander.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Actually you based an enormous chunk, easily more than half, of your argument on a single quote from IA.

Actually no, much of my argument comes from the codex.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And whenever rules get updated, so does fluff. Otherwise fluff would never change for any faction, ever, because codices would just be little rule updates.

Except fluff is actually not necessary to play the game. It being updated does not override anything at all. What we simply have is your opinion. And your statement still relies n the notoriously unreliable Wikipedia.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, They do not conduct war like the fists. They are not siege specialists, they are ork specialists. They are not stubborn like IF, they are practical and rational. They do not live lives based on the concept of honour alone etc.

But like the Fists they are a Codex Chapter. Crimson Fists are good and fighting orks but by and large they are a Codex Chapter. This fluff has not been changed.
IA Crimson Fists

When the Imperial Fists Legion was divided into individual chapters, those brethren of a more moderate nature became the Crimson Fists - where many of their former brethren in the legion railed against the changes wrought by the implementation of the Codex Astartes, the Crimson Fists embraced them. As a result, the chapter has maintained the combat doctrine set down by Guilliman, training in all the aspects of war the Astartes may expect to undertake.

As has been noted, the Crimson Fists have, since their founding ten millennia ago, adhered rigidly to the precepts of the Codex Astartes. Following the Battle of Rynn's World, the chapter is committing all available resources into rebuilding this organisation.

The Imperial Fists like do to siege, but primarily as the epitome of a Codex Chapter. This fluff has not been changed.

Zakiriel wrote:Earlier in this thread it was posited that we don't know if the Black Templars have produced other chapters.
Are the White Templars and or Red Templars actually their decendents or is that just the rumor that has been going around?

I don't know why, and cannot remember if I read this or not, so if someone can help me out here. I think that BT never had any sucessor chapters, because they never needed too. They stormed off into the Cosmos, flicking an index finger to Roboute and his precious book and went on a Xeno smashing bender lasting 10,000 + years. They are probably the only Chapter that is nearly the size of a pre-heresy legion. I maybe totally wrong in this however.

Okay Gree the only reason I sourced to wikipedia is so that I'd have a readable source rather than simply conveying to you the knowledge that literally every other person on Dakka is familiar with.

And the fluff DOES get reworked, just like when codices are updated.

And I love how you said you were only quoting IA lightly and then proceeded to quoted it twice in the same post.

im2randomghgh wrote:Okay Gree the only reason I sourced to wikipedia is so that I'd have a readable source rather than simply conveying to you the knowledge that literally every other person on Dakka is familiar with.

So you claim to speak for the thousands of posters on Dakka then? I find that highly presumptuous.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And the fluff DOES get reworked, just like when codices are updated.

That however does not necessarily invalidate prior fluff. Of course I would note there is no fluff source at all that explicitly states that the Imperial Fists are not a close Codex chapter.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And I love how you said you were only quoting IA lightly and then proceeded to quoted it twice in the same post.

Given the sheer length of my post? Yes, quoting it twice would be light.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Okay Gree the only reason I sourced to wikipedia is so that I'd have a readable source rather than simply conveying to you the knowledge that literally every other person on Dakka is familiar with.

So you claim to speak for the thousands of posters on Dakka then? I find that highly presumptuous.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And the fluff DOES get reworked, just like when codices are updated.

That however does not necessarily invalidate prior fluff. Of course I would note there is no fluff source at all that explicitly states that the Imperial Fists are not a close Codex chapter.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And I love how you said you were only quoting IA lightly and then proceeded to quoted it twice in the same post.

Given the sheer length of my post? Yes, quoting it twice would be light.

Not that one, your most recent one. The one you took these quotes of me from.

im2randomghgh wrote:Not that one, your most recent one. The one you took these quotes of me from.

I see, in my response prior to that I thought you were talking about my big post.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Not that one, your most recent one. The one you took these quotes of me from.

I see, in my response prior to that I thought you were talking about my big post.

Glad I could make myself clear.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Not that one, your most recent one. The one you took these quotes of me from.

I see, in my response prior to that I thought you were talking about my big post.

Glad I could make myself clear.

So the, going by this you concede the points in the thread as with your PM?

For example: You know, when you claimed that Codices did not contradict codices and I pulled out a clear and obvious example of the Grey Knights Codex and the Space Marine Codex clearly contradicting one another?

The only constant in 40K lore is that everything gets contradicted at some point.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The only constant in 40K lore is that everything gets contradicted at some point.

The constant in 40k, seems to be this thread. I think we have argued around, above, below and through this subject, Fluff is changable. They wrote Squats clean out of the canon. So fluff is as changable as the weather.

mwnciboo wrote:

Zakiriel wrote:Earlier in this thread it was posited that we don't know if the Black Templars have produced other chapters.
Are the White Templars and or Red Templars actually their decendents or is that just the rumor that has been going around?

I don't know why, and cannot remember if I read this or not, so if someone can help me out here. I think that BT never had any sucessor chapters, because they never needed too. They stormed off into the Cosmos, flicking an index finger to Roboute and his precious book and went on a Xeno smashing bender lasting 10,000 + years. They are probably the only Chapter that is nearly the size of a pre-heresy legion. I maybe totally wrong in this however.

Correct. BT don't start successors they just start another crusade to fit the brothers in.
Their duty is to keep the Crusade going and in this they follow the original purpose of the astartes.
They don't care for CA. Enabled them to play a rather big part in the end of the Apostasy, the war at Armageddon etc etc.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The only constant in 40K lore is that everything gets contradicted at some point.

mwnciboo wrote:Longest post in the history of dakka. +1 endurance my friend. However I literally cannot make sense of the whole interaction between you and 1hadhq, it is that longwinded that no one really knows where it started or where it ends. Nice to see that it hasn't descended into the usual personal attacks though, so i think you both win on the moral side.

Just wait where this goes...

Gree wrote:I am going to parapharase my responses with quotes from another poster on another forum that I happen to agree with in this case.

Dakka is not enough for you?
I accept any post, you don't need a ultra-perfect response when talking to me.

Gree wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Proof?

My entire argument?

Not convinced.
I'd like to see something substantial, not just the same quote again and again.

Gree wrote:
The Index Astartes is the actual fluff.

Its from 3rd edition, its 6-9 years old.
Parts are no longer true.
Every Legion/chapter with a actual codex and everything pictured differently in the HH series for example shows this fact.
Even the traitors could run on a different "history" when GW returns to them in their release cycle.

If you need an example, look up the gathering after the scouring, when the suriving loyal Primarchs decided to adopt the codex or not.
Actual fluff points to Ferrus Manus dead at this time, IA still lists him as part of that gathering.

Gree wrote:
It is not my interpretation but flat out explicitly stated.

Flat out is all nice for vehicles, but thats it.
Explicitly stated?
What you are running on, is singular lines in material from 2 editions back.
Consider fluff not used in newer products as "unused" or worse, "dropped".

Gree wrote:
A squad belonging to a Space Marine Chapter using the Codex Astartes will use the same tactics for clearing a building even you increased the Chapter to Legion size.

Not really. The squad of the Legio may have thousands of marines alongside, the chapter based squad may be alone.
There is a difference in tactics, when combined forces go to war or when marines are used as small detachments.
After the heresy, space marines got different duties.
So to say the tactics of the Legions who could call upon the mechanicum and imperial army are the same as the post heresy chapters is
incorrect.

The chapters are the interceptors of the IoM. The Legion had to reconquer the Galaxy and attached mechanicum and imperial army elements. Chapters cannot order the mechanicum or imperial guard around as they lack the command given by the emperor to his Primarchs and thus to his space marine legions.

If you compare tactics on squad level, you may find some are the same as those in M2. So if 38.000 years passed, why should this codex have any right to claim this tactic as its own teaching? No credit to the real and most likely long dead source?
IF xenos use the same tactic as humans, do they adhere to this codex too?

Gree wrote:
I have already addressed your point. You have simply chosen to ignore it.

No. There was nothing I could ignore.
Maybe give me at least something I could ignore before you claim I did.

Gree wrote:
That is what the Index Astartes states.

Its not.

Gree wrote:
And what if the book said ‘’use flexible tactics and think for yourself?’’

Nobody needs that book if thats its content.

Gree wrote:
Mind offering an actual argument instead of something you made up?

Mind reading what you wrote instead of interpreting things into IA which are not there?
I don't have to make up anything. Why should I ?
The background is not covered in some sort of "fog of war". Just because you deem to repeat yourself and can't hear anyone above that noise doesn't mean the content of other posts is made up.

Gree wrote:
The Imperial Fists Space Marine Legion is unimaginative and is much larger than the Fists Space Mairne chapter who follows the Codex Astartes.

The whole legion is now unimaginative?
I am pretty sure a lot of GW's writers are unimaginative, but to call GW unimaginative would do a disservice to those who are not.
So why is it now the whole Legion of tens of thousands of space marines and its Primarch who are called unimaginative in this manner?

Gree wrote:
The Templars favor close combat and specialize in it. Thus one can reasonably predict they will probably try and use close combat.

To reasonably predict is to follow the uncertainity of an eldar vision in your case.
Everyone favors CC in 40k. Thats why everyone carries some sort of beatstick.
Do swords and pointy sticks make sense? No they don't as you should be able to use those shooty armament that is so common in 40k.

One should predict they would hate that witch and try to end its existance if one was interested to have a point.
If I had to command BT, I would be more than pleased to face an easy to delude tactical fool who belives a reputation of CC guarantees bets are easy won.

Gree wrote:You want to know what the White Scars, the Black Templars or the Iron Warriors will most likely do? You don't need a lot of intell for that.

Hi victim of the WS, BT and IW.
Was a pleasure to watch you falling for this old mistake.

Gree wrote:
You want to know what a Codex Chapetr will do? You need intimate knowledge of a library full of warfare history, need to know their exact force dispositions and what they know about your force dispositions, and then have to take into account all the other details of this encounter, or rather, what the Codex commander knows about the details of this encounter. For every such detail the enemy commander evaluates differently than the Codex commander, it means a divergence in what the Codex commander might do and what the enemy commander predicts he will do.

I need either an eldar farseer or to take the initiative and have them fight on MY terms.
Not so hard to do. Codex chapters have been defeated regularly, so prediction of their actions isn't as impossible as you may think.

Plus your falling into your own trap again.
No encounter is the same, so using a codex would not provide a solution, just data to build your own plans.
And were back to the importance of the person, not the book.

Gree wrote:And not only would it be easier to predict the actions of a divergent Chapter, it would also be possible to force them into an engagement where they cannot play to their strengths, and are forced to use tactics they are less adapt at.

You can fore marines into engagements they are less adapt at even if they follow this codex.

Gree wrote: E.g. you could deny an Iron Warriors force the option to employ a static gunline,

Too bad they either come as sieg fore or sit in their fortress already.
Casualities were high, to drive em out of imperial space in the scouring.
Could be codex-loving UM who had to do this. Maybe this prediction idea is as bad as it sounds?

Gree wrote:or engage Salamanders at range and pull back, forcing them to employ faster units and longer range weapons.

youre a funny one. Why should any space marine play to your tune?

Gree wrote:Similarly, a White Scars force would feel less comfortable in an engagement where hit and run and mobile units are less useful.

So if the feel uncomfortable, they won't be able to do what every space marine is able to, no matter if someone wrote a book about it?

Gree wrote: With a Codex Chapter on the other hand, you can not so easily create a situation they would be less capable to deal with.

Nonsense.
The codex creates generalists, who are mediocre at everything and good at nothing.
They deal with every situation, but they don't have the backup of the specialists.
The Emperor created 20 legions, different legions with different strengths. For a reason.

Gree wrote:Pitch the Black Templars against three very different odds. You are less likely to get three very different approaches. Or do the same with the Iron Warriors and three very different odds. Again, you are not as likely to get three very different approaches. But if you do the same with a Codex Chapter, they will use three entirely different approaches, each approach chosen specifically based on the odds in question, and not on the preferences of the commander or Chapter.

O right, now the poor commander and his chapter have again to do it "by the book", the thing you claim the codex is not meant to.
somehow, I am stuck with your crappy ideas of flexibility here, a codex chapter is still no copy of other codex chapters and lots of influence are heaped upon the marines of codex chapters as you could see if you wanted too.
This differently approach does not come from the codex, its the commander in charge, his training and the way his chapter fights as tradfitions are important to space marines. Go on ignore the changes 10 millenia and chapters scattered through the galaxy without regular contact to each other wreak upon this glorified take on the codex you have.

Gree wrote:White Scars and Iron Warriors are focused heavily on particular doctrines, and a Wolf Lord usually has his favourite units or doctrines he almost allways employs.

And?

Gree wrote:So you can’t actually answer my argument.

You have none so what should I answer there?
Maybe I am too unimaginative to think of an argument you could have had and answer to that instead....

Gree wrote:
Proof and quotes?

You have quoted the IA a hundred times and claim you don't know what I am talking about?
why don't you pull out IA and look up the UM, and the codex.?

The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch.

As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.

So it does standardize equipment and markings. Exactly the role of codifiying.
But, as usual, the important part in bold letters isn't used as "petty and restrictive" isn't what you want to base your argument on as this contradicts your claim of flexibility.
Like the "reverence" and the "sanctification" we find there, which is also not strenghtening your claim of a different approach as the
result of such treatment is most likely to cling to it like it would be heresy to interpret it.
See , its easy to pull a few words out of a paragraph, like you did with unimaginative,,,,,

Gree wrote:
You responded to my statement about the demolition device. I answered you.

The codex states you have to have enough meltabombs at hand. To need to improvise is to fail. You shall repent...

Gree wrote:
That does not answer the question of why Guilliman, a superhuman military genius would not place something as basic as improvised demolitions in the Codex or that hundred of military thinkers throughout history that have contributed to the Codex have not noted such a precedence.

Oh it does.
Gullyman himself said the codex is a guideline. Right there in HH-AoD. There are even fake battles to test the validity of his scribblings.
I know, because i read it and this wasn't the usual ride as partially it felt like the UM are traitors.

Gree wrote:McNeill introduced a problem that did not exist in the first place. McNeill wrote them as misguided dogmatists when originally they were not. Originally the Ultramairnes were presented as one of the most successful and famous chapters in the Imperium and they were stated to ridgedly follow the Codex Astartes. One would logically assume Codex=good.

The UM lost a bit of their path, without Gullyman to guide them. Still its just a story based upon 2 opposing characters.
Codex = tool for the days to come. Its purpose was to split the power but keep the astartes standardizerd so they could fight alongside if they had to. Thus codex = good is only true if the passing time doesn't alter the views.

Gree wrote:To him it means they cannot deal with new threats. It means they are predictable to someone with knowledge of the Codex. But my question is, why must it mean that? And how did the Ultramarines manage to be one of the most successful Chapters for 10,000 years if strictly following the Codex is that disadvantageous?

It becomes a disadvantage when a codex is seen as unquestionable, a holy writ, sanctified, and this leads to a rise of accusations of defiying the primarch , the emperor and whatnot. Traditions may unite but can tie down and split too.
What happens when parts of the codex contradict each other and you cannot find out who wrote them?

Gree wrote:
Except the Codex Astartes would have logically been copied and distributed many times for the Second Founding. I find it hard to believe all those copies could have simultaneously lost that section.

And I find it unlikely, that Ultramarines, noted for their organization ability, would be unable to keep backup copies of the Codex.

The ultramarines copy could be very different from say the mortifactors copy of it. Both are sons of gullyman.
Plus, a copy error would create that problem. The master copy altered for example. Maybe nids ate a few chunks of the stored backups.

Gree wrote:

But wait, we know that new vehicles are accepted by the Space Marines, such as the Land Raider Crusader or the Predator Anihilator. And we know that new enemies are encountered, such as the Tau, the Necrons or the Tyranids. We are also told that the Codex is constantly amended with new battle reports and articles from military thinkers of the Imperium. How does this fit with a general objection to anything not already in the Codex as portrayed in McNeill's work?

Because this codex only exists virtually?
Tell me how does an author contribute to the codex?
Who prooofreads the contribuitons?
Who decides what is added?

The only way to make a codex work, is to make it a set of basic guidelines, laid out long ago and the add ons are chapter specific.
Like 40k and apoc. You can have both or just the basic ruleset.
This generates the problem of not everyone on the same page, as its nigh impossible to keep the updates of every copy in this galaxy actually. It provides a basic set tough. Like a starter set for TT.

Gree wrote:
Why wouldn’t it? Why would the Primarchs give you bad advice.

Because they are not perfect? Without flaws, no one had fallen. Some of them gave themselves bad advice.....

Gree wrote:We don’t know exactly what the Codex Astartes would contain but we can make reasonable guesses.

Gree wrote:I don't think expecting that explicit advice from the primarch should not be counter-productive is all that unreasonable. I don't expect the Codex to have a perfect solution for everything. I just don't want it to give advice that is stupid, and only by ignoring that advice would you be able to prevail. Why would the primarchs instruct you to do detrimental things? Why would they instruct you to do things that would lose you the battle? Why would you have to go against their advice to be able to win?

This must be the Alpha legions doing. Rewrote the secured master copy, to throw off the plan of gullyman.

Gree wrote:How have I given up?

Youre aware of it?

Gree wrote:And the main gist of the Codex is that for each situation there is a most effective approach to deal with it.

No. The Approach depends on factors the codex has no control of.
So either you argument is that the codex covers every specific situation or that it is mere guidelines and the specifics are for the reader to decide upon. could you please make up your mind and stick with one?

Gree wrote:Let's say Guilliman himself had desribed a "standard" strategy for battle, while Khan had described a "mobile" strategy and Perturabo had described a "siege" strategy. A Chapter using the Codex Astartes as its guideline could then allways choose between the standard, mobile and siege strategy in every one of their battles.


Scenario 1: An Evil Sunz Waaagh attacks a world.

White Scars strategy: mobile

Iron Warriors strategy: siege

Ultramarines strategy: mobile


Scenario 2: Rebelling governour holing up in a fortified hive city.

White Scars strategy: mobile

Iron Warriors strategy: siege

Ultramarines strategy: siege


Scenario 3: Dark Eldar Raiders attack several cities of a world, claiming slaves.

White Scars strategy: mobile

Iron Warriors strategy: siege

Ultramarines strategy: standard


The extreme focus of the White Scars and the Iron Warriors has been exaggerated a bit for this example. None-the less, those forces that deviate from the Codex Astartes usually focus on a specific type of warfare, while the Codex doctrine has allways represented a balanced and all-purpose force meant to be able to apply any kind of approach.

The UM would still be inferior on siege , mobile and whatnot compared to the specialized legions.
The reason to specialize was the gathered strength of 20 legions to draw the best suited troops from.

And your choice there is wrong. The WS would bleed the orks dry and beat them, they would just cut the head of the snake off with probably less casualties than the UM, and they would catch the DE and hunt them down.
The IW were a garrison force, thus defending already. They would weather the orks, they would blast the rebels back to hell and they would let the DE come, right into the predicted fields of death and sent them off.
The UM in this scenario would try to deal with the orks but lack the speed of the WS. They would try to raze that fortress but lack the skills of the IW and they would try to fight the DE and be outpaced.

Gree wrote:
Why would it be? If the Codex provides the best solution but it is the commander that must put the factors together in order to figure it out.

But the Codex wouldn't just state "you are fighting Dark Eldar, so do X". It would also depend on what forces the Codex Chapter and what forces the opposition has available. If the enemy has a lot of armour, use X. But if he has a lot of assault units, do Y. Of course, if your own force includes a lot of support units, you will be more apt at approach Z, while if your force includes a lot of mobile shock unit, it will be better suited to perform approach 01. The Codex is meant to take all of those factors into account, and propose an effective strategy for the commander. If he has no assault unit, he will use a different tactic. If he intends to defend the shrine, or intends to protect the governour, he will use a different tactic. If he has a personal preference for heavy units, he will use a different tactic. If the strike force includes Terminators, he will use a different tactic than if it didn't. If his strike cruiser/battle barge is fully armed, he will use a different tactic than if it was low on stocks. If the Chapter is willing to co-ordinate with other Imperial elements such as the PDF (where the Dark Angels might not do so), he will use a different tactic.

Think of it like a filter I think it is a filter of: Enemy A + position X + wargear Y = Situation AXY

The Ultramarine Commander then filters in his own stuff (morale of men, usage of PDF/Guard, availble units, ammo, experience of his own fighting this specific enemy).

This will result in a completely different tactic towards Situation AXY then any other Commander would come to. Sicarius for example, might decide to change Situation AXY into AXZ (By eliminating the HQ), and then counter AXZ. While Uriel Ventris might take AXY for granted and use a strategy to counter AXY.

Too complicated.
Does not work in the short period of time a battle occurs.
The codex use you describe there would be at best planning beforehand in orbit or at base.
But you don't need a codex to tell you how to do it after hundreds of years of service.....

Gree wrote:
So apparently you don’t’ actually have a counterpoint or argument and are content to simply ignore GW fluff.

Nice.

I don't need to counter that. It discounts itself, by sheer blindness to what people are getting at.
GW fluff is flexible. So flexible, they can squat races, alter races , drop old fluff, etc etc.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Although one thing you got wrong were the reasons for the IF successor splits. Black Templars were the fanatics, IF the most loyal, Soul Drinkers the shock assault specialist, CF the rational.

Otherwise, +1!

Soul drinkers do not exist in the second founding fluff.
But otherwise I may have been to fast and missed to reread what I said. got it mixed-up..

1hadhq wrote:
Not convinced.
I'd like to see something substantial, not just the same quote again and again.

So in other words you are content to ignore GW fluff.

You are basically being argumentative to ad nausem on this point.

1hadhq wrote:
Its from 3rd edition, its 6-9 years old.

Yes and? How does that matter?

1hadhq wrote:
Parts are no longer true.
Every Legion/chapter with a actual codex and everything pictured differently in the HH series for example shows this fact.

No it does not. For the most part books are consistent with the IA.

1hadhq wrote:
If you need an example, look up the gathering after the scouring, when the suriving loyal Primarchs decided to adopt the codex or not.
Actual fluff points to Ferrus Manus dead at this time, IA still lists him as part of that gathering.

No, another interpretation of GW fluff points to Ferrus being alive at the time.

1hadhq wrote:
Consider fluff not used in newer products as "unused" or worse, "dropped".

Fortunately that is your opinion and now what GW actually says.

1hadhq wrote:
Not really. The squad of the Legio may have thousands of marines alongside, the chapter based squad may be alone.

Then obviously the tactical situation would differ.

1hadhq wrote:
So to say the tactics of the Legions who could call upon the mechanicum and imperial army are the same as the post heresy chapters is
incorrect.

Then you are comparing two different tactical situations and not the application of tactics themselves.

1hadhq wrote:
If you compare tactics on squad level, you may find some are the same as those in M2. So if 38.000 years passed, why should this codex have any right to claim this tactic as its own teaching? No credit to the real and most likely long dead source?
IF xenos use the same tactic as humans, do they adhere to this codex too?

Not sure what you are addressing here. Are you claiming the Codex must use entirely different and brand new tactics? It’s just a distillation of the best tactics that came before it.

1hadhq wrote:
No. There was nothing I could ignore.
Maybe give me at least something I could ignore before you claim I did.

So your being argumentative without an actual point then?

1hadhq wrote:
Its not.

Yes it does. IT is plain at this point you are just sticking your finger sin your ears and singing ‘’LALALALA’’

1hadhq wrote:
Mind reading what you wrote instead of interpreting things into IA which are not there?

I did read what I wrote.

1hadhq wrote:
I don't have to make up anything. Why should I ?

You made up half of the Imperial Fists being non-Codex when you have zero evidence to back that up.

1hadhq wrote:
Nobody needs that book if thats its content.

Unless of course they are a specialized chapter that favors one style of warfare over another, like the White Scars or Iron Warriors.

1hadhq wrote:
The background is not covered in some sort of "fog of war". Just because you deem to repeat yourself and can't hear anyone above that noise doesn't mean the content of other posts is made up.

Except the content of said posts consist of claims that have no support at all in the mentioned background.

1hadhq wrote:
The whole legion is now unimaginative?

Correct, that’s what’s stated. It has not bee contridicted at all.

1hadhq wrote:
I am pretty sure a lot of GW's writers are unimaginative, but to call GW unimaginative would do a disservice to those who are not.

Not sure how this relates to your point. We already have s fluff statement on this.

1hadhq wrote:
So why is it now the whole Legion of tens of thousands of space marines and its Primarch who are called unimaginative in this manner?

Because they are.

1hadhq wrote:
To reasonably predict is to follow the uncertainity of an eldar vision in your case.

Not at all, are you denying that the Black Templars favor close combat?

1hadhq wrote:
Everyone favors CC in 40k. Thats why everyone carries some sort of beatstick.

Incorrect, the Ultramarines for example, favor a balanced, flexible approach to warfare. They do not favor close combat over shooting or vice-versa. Races like the Tau and Guard obviously don't favor close combat. And if everyone favored close combat then there would be nothing special about the doctrines of the Blood Angels or Black Templars next to the Ultramarines.

1hadhq wrote:
If I had to command BT, I would be more than pleased to face an easy to delude tactical fool who belives a reputation of CC guarantees bets are easy won.

I never said it mean an easy victory. But Black Templars favor close combat. That is a fact. Logically, they will most likely used close combats tactics. They will devote more training and time to close combat than other areas of warfare.

Now Black Templars will not always use close combat, but by and far they are most likely to use close quarters combat. Unless you are denying that the Black Templars do no favor close combat?

And of course the Templar commander would have to know his foe would have intelligence on the Templar.

Codex Black Templars

The Black Templars have continued in the slyle of their founder, Sigismund, in preferring close combat to ranged warfare. Face-to-face with his enemy, a Space Marine can earn honour and respect and be sure that his foe is truly vanquished.

This is further emphastsed by the fanaticism of Black Templars battle brothers, whose righteous anger makes them impatient and headstrong. They will drive towards the foe relentlessly, their own casualties only serving to spur them on faster, hungry for vengeance on the slayers of their brethren.

So not only do they prefer close combat but they are impatient and headstrong.

1hadhq wrote:
Hi victim of the WS, BT and IW.
Was a pleasure to watch you falling for this old mistake.

So you are claiming that the White Scars favorability to hit and run tactics can never ever be predicted? That is highly presumptuous and strains logical disbelief.

Of course if said chapter chooses something that they don’t specialize in, then they will be at a disadvantage as they don’t devote enough time on it. A Black Templar would obviously devote more training to close combat rather than ranged. So if he was ever required to fight in a ranged combat, he would be deficient compared to say an Ultramarine who spends all his time learning combat equally.

1hadhq wrote:
I need either an eldar farseer or to take the initiative and have them fight on MY terms.

The latter still will not let you know about the Codex force’s compositions, the codex force’s knowledge of your forces and the Codex commander’s preferences.

1hadhq wrote:
Not so hard to do. Codex chapters have been defeated regularly, so prediction of their actions isn't as impossible as you may think.

Can you give me proof that Codex chapters are defeated regularly? If the Ultramarines are defeated regularly for the past ten thousand years then why are they one of the most famous and sucessful chapters in the Imperium?

And just because they are defeated does not mean it was the fault of the Codex or that the Codex can be predicted.

1hadhq wrote:
Plus your falling into your own trap again.
No encounter is the same, so using a codex would not provide a solution, just data to build your own plans.
And were back to the importance of the person, not the book.

What trap? Whenever have I claimed otherwise?

Using the Codex would provide a situation using the data. You just have to figure it out. It would not provide any ''one''' situation, but rather the best solutions. It is up to the commander to apply them.

And said person would not be able to figure out said situation without the Codex.

1hadhq wrote:
You can fore marines into engagements they are less adapt at even if they follow this codex.

How so if they train equally for all situations and advocate flexibility? If they are equally good at everything then how can situatiosn exist in which they are ill-suited?

1hadhq wrote:
Too bad they either come as sieg fore or sit in their fortress already.

And what if say, you hold a vital objective outside the Fortress or the Iron Warriors have to go on the attack against a mobile enemy?

1hadhq wrote:
youre a funny one. Why should any space marine play to your tune?

And how else will the Salamanders counter long-range weaponry on a fast moving foe?

1hadhq wrote:
So if the feel uncomfortable, they won't be able to do what every space marine is able to, no matter if someone wrote a book about it?

If the White Scars devote more time training and specialize in fast attacks then obviously they will be devoting less time to training for say, sieges and would have less experience at sieges.

Meanwhile a Codex Chapter would train for all situations equally.

1hadhq wrote:
Nonsense.
The codex creates generalists, who are mediocre at everything and good at nothing.
They deal with every situation, but they don't have the backup of the specialists.
The Emperor created 20 legions, different legions with different strengths. For a reason.

That still does not counter my point.

You can look at the White Scars and set up a powerful fortress around a vital objective and watch them encounter difficulty with tactics they do not favor. What if the White Scars have to fight in a boarding operation or fight in terrain that is unsuitable for bikes (Like mountainous terrain?)

You can’t do the same with the Ultramarines, who will then proceed to besiege it just fine.

1hadhq wrote:

O right, now the poor commander and his chapter have again to do it "by the book", the thing you claim the codex is not meant to.

What if the book advocates ‘’Be flexible and use whatever tactics are suited for the situation instead of overly specializing in one particular aspect of warfare’’

1hadhq wrote:
somehow, I am stuck with your crappy ideas of flexibility here, a codex chapter is still no copy of other codex chapters and lots of influence are heaped upon the marines of codex chapters as you could see if you wanted too.

Can you actually provide proof to back up your assertions instead of making up false claims?

1hadhq wrote:
This differently approach does not come from the codex, its the commander in charge, his training and the way his chapter fights as tradfitions are important to space marines. Go on ignore the changes 10 millenia and chapters scattered through the galaxy without regular contact to each other wreak upon this glorified take on the codex you have.

If a chapter makes changes to it’s tactical doctrine that counters the Codex then it obviously is no longer a Codex chapter.

And I would assume inter-chapter updates to the Codex are still possible. But I would imagine that updates to the Codex are only done when a new race or unit appears (Like the Tyranids and Necrons and that would be rare)

But to address your original point, the different approach does come from the Codex. After all, the White Scars still specialize before the Codex Astartes, same with the Imperial Fists.

1hadhq wrote:
And?

And a Codex commander won’t really have a favorite doctrine he can use.

1hadhq wrote:

You have none so what should I answer there?
Maybe I am too unimaginative to think of an argument you could have had and answer to that instead....

So again, you can’t actually answer my argument. You consistently failing to address several key points. You seem to be just argumentative here.

1hadhq wrote:
You have quoted the IA a hundred times and claim you don't know what I am talking about?
why don't you pull out IA and look up the UM, and the codex.?

I have, and it does not contradict my point. The Ultramarines words adhere to Guilliman’s words strictly. And if Guilliman’s words were evidently ‘’Maximum tactical flexibility’’ then what is the problem?

1hadhq wrote:
So it does standardize equipment and markings. Exactly the role of codifiying.

Yes, and how does that make them tactically inflexible?

1hadhq wrote:
But, as usual, the important part in bold letters isn't used as "petty and restrictive" isn't what you want to base your argument on as this contradicts your claim of flexibility.

Which is quite a good thing since said document then implies it’s not the work of a Primarch.

And now let's back off just a little bit:

"These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history. Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch."

The problem with Ultramarine lore is that the exact nature of the Codex is rarely described, and Ultramarine doctrine is only briefly described as "they follow the Codex to the letter".
So what if the venerated Admiral Kerfuffle had been honoured in 951.M41 to have his battle report and extensive analysis implemented into the Codex Astartes? That was only 48 years ago. Would the Ultramarines feel bound to follow all of Admiral Kerfuffle's suggestions to the letter, as they would follow the texts of their Primarch? If you just took the brief description of "the Ultramarines follow the Codex to the letter", then you would probably say yes. But if you thought about it for a minute, it would probably seem a little odd to you. Perhaps all those countless battle reports and analyses that have been added over the past millennia aren't seen as mandatory, and merely serve to educate? Perhaps, as I would assume, the Codex contains the "doctrines", which had largely been established in M31 and include the tactics of the Primarchs, and are only rarely added to when a new threat such as the Tyranids are encountered. And then it contains the "battle reports", which have been added from all kinds of sources (not just Astartes, but also Guard and Navy), and are meant to grant the Marines insight into encountered foes, and examples of tactics that worked well, or not so well. So when the description states that they "follow the Codex to the letter", that refers to the combat doctrines, as set up by Roboute Guilliman, and composed of the best tactics of all the Primarchs, but not so much that they feel the need to follow every general or admiral's advice he may have given in his battle reports, no matter how gifted or venerated that general or admiral had been (after all, his treatise had been included in the Codex

1hadhq wrote:
Like the "reverence" and the "sanctification" we find there, which is also not strenghtening your claim of a different approach as the
result of such treatment is most likely to cling to it like it would be heresy to interpret it.
See , its easy to pull a few words out of a paragraph, like you did with unimaginative,,,,,

And if the book said ‘’be flexible and here is pieces of advice that works best. It’s up to you to use them correctly’’ then revering it and sanctifying it would not make you tactically inflexible.

If the content of the Codex was counterproductive and restrictive and a step-by-step guide then you would have a point, but why would Guilliman create something as obviously daft as that?

1hadhq wrote:
The codex states you have to have enough meltabombs at hand. To need to improvise is to fail. You shall repent...

What are you talking about? We’ve already established that the Codex does not mention anything at all in that particular instance. This is another example of you making things up.
But to address your other point, why would providing fail? If the Codex contains nothing on the subject, then one cannot go against what does not exist. It is only McNeill’s invention that they cannot go outside the Codex.

1hadhq wrote:
Oh it does.
Gullyman himself said the codex is a guideline. Right there in HH-AoD. There are even fake battles to test the validity of his scribblings.

Except said passage is written by Graham McNeill who has a daft view of the Codex. One of his short stories for example has the Codex contain nothing on improvised explosives.
This also raises another question of why Guilliman would not add that.

Plus if Guilliman said he wanted it to be a guide then why would be not print boldly and clearly in the Codex ‘’This is intended to be a guide not a strict rulebook?’’
Yet evidently he has not.

1hadhq wrote:
The UM lost a bit of their path, without Gullyman to guide them. Still its just a story based upon 2 opposing characters.

But however that is not the Ultramarines original depiction as I stated. That is again, McNeill’s invention.

1hadhq wrote:
Codex = tool for the days to come. Its purpose was to split the power but keep the astartes standardizerd so they could fight alongside if they had to. Thus codex = good is only true if the passing time doesn't alter the views.

That is why the Codex is updated with new situations, the present parts of the Codex would still be valid, unless different factors called for different situations, which then would not be a failing of the Codex.

I have no objection to the facts that the Codex cannot cover everything and sometimes must be updated. I do have an objection to the concept of the codex giving you bad advice. Why would Guilliman give you bad advice?

1hadhq wrote:
It becomes a disadvantage when a codex is seen as unquestionable, a holy writ, sanctified, and this leads to a rise of accusations of defiying the primarch , the emperor and whatnot. Traditions may unite but can tie down and split too.

Then why are the Ultramarines stated to be one of the most successful and famous Astartes chapters if said Codex is easily predictable? Your logic makes no sense, why would Guilliman write a book like that?

1hadhq wrote:
What happens when parts of the codex contradict each other and you cannot find out who wrote them?

Then fortunately we would have multiple backup copies for such a situation.

1hadhq wrote:
The ultramarines copy could be very different from say the mortifactors copy of it. Both are sons of gullyman.

Why would it be different?

And did't the Mortifactors state they are no longer a strict Codex chapter?

1hadhq wrote:
Plus, a copy error would create that problem. The master copy altered for example. Maybe nids ate a few chunks of the stored backups.

And why would the master copy be altered? And if you have many backups then you should be able to easily spot said changes. And if the Codex was copied across the galaxy for use by most Astartes chapter then the Tyranids could not possibly eat all of the backups. Not to mention the Tyranids never actually penetrated the Fortress of Hera itself.

1hadhq wrote:
Because this codex only exists virtually?

Proof?

1hadhq wrote:
Tell me how does an author contribute to the codex?
Who prooofreads the contribuitons?
Who decides what is added?

We don’t know. But we do know things are added to the Codex and it is updated.

I would reasonably assume that the Ultramarines and the oldest and most famous Astartes chapters would get together and discuss new addition to the Codex Astartes and proof read it.

Like this example

Index Astartes: Beasts of Steel

The Liber Proditor Armorum, a treatise written in 812.M39 by Techmarine Suprema Lysol Blane of the Imperial Fists Chapter, contains many startling insights into the Traitor Legions' use of armoured vehicles.

.........

Blane's work was to be integrated into the Codex Astartes, but upon reviewing the data the Iron Fathers of the Iron Hands Chapter objected strongly enough that the notion was set aside. Many point out that the Iron Hands share the Iron Warriors' practice of cybernetic enhancement, believing the Chapter was protecting its own interests in suppressing the information. The Iron Hands insisted they wished merely to protect the Adeptus Astartes from the consequences of the information falling into the wrong hands.

1hadhq wrote:
The only way to make a codex work, is to make it a set of basic guidelines, laid out long ago and the add ons are chapter specific.
Like 40k and apoc. You can have both or just the basic ruleset.
This generates the problem of not everyone on the same page, as its nigh impossible to keep the updates of every copy in this galaxy actually. It provides a basic set tough. Like a starter set for TT.

And if everybody important meets together and informs the updates to the Codex then what?

But then if an Astartes chapter is operating with an outdated copy of the Codex, then that is not necessarily a failing of the Codex. If they run into a threat that there Codex does not cover, then that is not a failing of the Codex as it cannot present anything advice to counter it and one cannot go against it.

1hadhq wrote:
Because they are not perfect? Without flaws, no one had fallen. Some of them gave themselves bad advice.....

Why would superhuman military geniuses who fought for two hundred years of war give you explicitly bad advice? I can see them giving advice that may no longer apply, but that would be a changing factor and not a fault of the codex solution.

Why would Guilliman write a step-by-step book and forget to tell his sons they are only guidelines?

1hadhq wrote:
This must be the Alpha legions doing. Rewrote the secured master copy, to throw off the plan of gullyman.

And if the master copy has been copied hundreds of thousands of times before…like say at the Second Founding? And I would assume the codex chapters would note any changes to the master copy.

1hadhq wrote:
Youre aware of it?

Aware of what?

1hadhq wrote:
No. The Approach depends on factors the codex has no control of.

No, the Codex approach would be to recognize the factors and compile a solution in response. The Codex cannot tell you how exactly your enemies will fight (Although it can tell you how they will most likely fight)

1hadhq wrote:
So either you argument is that the codex covers every specific situation or that it is mere guidelines and the specifics are for the reader to decide upon. could you please make up your mind and stick with one?

I never argued the former.

What I am arguing if that the Codex would cover most situations as it’s guides are not too specific as you can obviously never have the same exact situation twice. If the Codec Chapter urns into a problem that the Codex does not cover then the Codex cannot give you bad advice since it contains nothing on the subject.

1hadhq wrote:
The UM would still be inferior on siege , mobile and whatnot compared to the specialized legions.

Correct, but they would be superior at the weaknesses of each Legion. You can’t really force the Ultramarines into an unfavorable situation like you can the White Scars and Iron Warriors.

1hadhq wrote:
The reason to specialize was the gathered strength of 20 legions to draw the best suited troops from.

And what if those individual Legions have to operate on their own in unfavorable situations?

1hadhq wrote:
And your choice there is wrong. The WS would bleed the orks dry and beat them,

But the Iron Warriors would have hard time dealing with a mobile opponent.

1hadhq wrote:
they would just cut the head of the snake off with probably less casualties than the UM,

And what if the head of the snake is heavily fortified in a siege situation that the White Scars are unfamiliar with?

1hadhq wrote:
and they would catch the DE and hunt them down.

How would they catch opponents with faster vehicles than they are? What if the White Scars are required to hold a strategic objective or defend a fortress? What if the White Scars are requird to fight in terrain that weather bikes useless like a mountain?

1hadhq wrote:
The IW were a garrison force, thus defending already.

And what if in situations they are required to go on the assault? Say when fighting a mobile foe or a foe that holds a strategic object far away from their forces?

1hadhq wrote:
The IW were a garrison force, thus defending already. They would weather the orks, they would blast the rebels back to hell and they would let the DE come, right into the predicted fields of death and sent them off.

And why would the Dark Eldar charge right into heavily fortified defenses that are the opposite of their usual mobile tactics? Why would they not just ignore the Iron Warriors and use their superior mobility to take slaves instead from places the Iron Warriors have not fortified? Why would the Dark Eldar engage in a protracted siege?

1hadhq wrote:
The UM in this scenario would try to deal with the orks but lack the speed of the WS. They would try to raze that fortress but lack the skills of the IW and they would try to fight the DE and be outpaced.

They would however, be able to fight the Dark Eldar better than the Iron Warriors and they would be able to deal with the rebels better than the White Scars would do in that situation.

Unless you are claiming that White Scars are better at siege warfare than Ultramarines and Iron Warriors are better at mobile warfare than the Ultramarines?

Let me put it like this with an example.

The White Scars specialize in fast attack. They devote most of their time training on mobile warfare tactics and some time in various other tactics. They favor fast attack tactics at the detriment of other tactics.

The Ultramarines devote their time to training with all forms of warfare equally. They are good with all tactics and favor none.

The White Scars would be 70% good at mobile warfare and 30% good at siege warfare.

The Ultramarines would be good at both equally.

Now what if these forces are needed to take a vital objective that is located in mountainous terrain, thus making it totally unsuitable for bikes. The entire campaign rests on this vital objective and they must take it. The White Scars would be unable to use their favored tactics and be thrust into an unfamiliar situation. The Ultramarines would not be at a disadvantage as they train equally in all aspects of the Codex.

The White Scars would be better than the Ultramarines at mobile warfare, but at a disadvantage in all other situations. Unless you are claiming that the White Scars are just as good as the Ultramarines at mountain warfare or siege warfare despite focusing their training on specializing mobile warfare?

1hadhq wrote:
Too complicated.
Does not work in the short period of time a battle occurs.

Why would it be too complicated to a warrior who has studied the Codex for centuries and has based his training around it? Why would someone with enhanced cognitive ability and special training like a Space Marine be unable to do that?

Of course if you are claiming the codex is a step by step guide that covers every conceivable. situation than such a list would be even longer.

1hadhq wrote:
The codex use you describe there would be at best planning beforehand in orbit or at base.

Not at all.

1hadhq wrote:
But you don't need a codex to tell you how to do it after hundreds of years of service.....

But the codex would give you information from the minds of several Primarchs and hundreds of military thinkers throughout history in addition to their own experience.

1hadhq wrote:
I don't need to counter that. It discounts itself, by sheer blindness to what people are getting at.

So you are basically admitting you are ignoring GW fluff here?

Saying ''oh I don't need to counter that'' is a very poor way of sidestepping the point.

Forgive me, but you seem more concerned arguing something into ad nausem than actually contributing to a debate.

1hadhq wrote:
GW fluff is flexible. So flexible, they can squat races, alter races , drop old fluff, etc etc.

I am no arguing that. However that does not contradict my point at all.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Not that one, your most recent one. The one you took these quotes of me from.

I see, in my response prior to that I thought you were talking about my big post.

Glad I could make myself clear.

So the, going by this you concede the points in the thread as with your PM?

For example: You know, when you claimed that Codices did not contradict codices and I pulled out a clear and obvious example of the Grey Knights Codex and the Space Marine Codex clearly contradicting one another?

Did it say all the chapters were full strength? Also, you seem to fail to realize that not every single gene-seed organ in existence was inside a space marine. They can create more, especially in that era.

The mechanicus regulates enormous amounts of gene-seed. Also, if the only way to create a chapter was to use existing marines (which is ONE way) then they would be unable to create them in the 41st millenium because and entire chapter would have to be moved, which would just be a name change.

No contradiction.

im2randomghgh wrote:Did it say all the chapters were full strength?

Why would they create a bunch of chapters that are not at full strength?

Of course that does not change the fact that is says 400 chapters were created and the Marine Codex clearly shows only 30 mentioned out of the Legions. Them being a full strength is irrelevant.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, you seem to fail to realize that not every single gene-seed organ in existence was inside a space marine. They can create more, especially in that era.

Creation of a Space Marine states the creation of new geneseed from existing geneseed takes about 55 years.

But as I mentioned that is irrelevant. That does not change the fact that 400 chapters were created yet the Marine Codex showed only 30 chapters created.

Of course if they can create vast numbers of new geneseed quickly then why create a mass of understrength chapters instead of making sure the current ones were at full strength? I fhtye can create that much geneseed why were the numbers of the Imperial Fists and blood Angels not rebult quickly? Why would the Legions be stated to consist of only ten thousand men if they could make Marines that easily and quickly?

im2randomghgh wrote:
The mechanicus regulates enormous amounts of gene-seed.

As part of the Codex Astartes reforms brought about by the Second Founding. The Space Marine Codex on pg. 8 explains that such practices were set up as a result of the Second Founding, in other words at the time the Legions were beign broken up.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, if the only way to create a chapter was to use existing marines (which is ONE way) then they would be unable to create them in the 41st millenium because and entire chapter would have to be moved, which would just be a name change.

That’s all well and nice but that does not change the fact that of the Second Founding the Marine Codex only lists 30 Astartes and not 400.

Let me give you this quote. 5th Edition Codex pg. 8

Each of the Second Founding Chapters is derived directly from a First Founding Chapter and initially shared the same geneseed. Subsequently the new Chapter’s geneseed was isolated, forming a new genetic line.

It clearly states that each new chapter came directly from a First Founding Chapter. And of course this also contradicts the Grey Knights Codex since the Grey Knights are stated to be a Second Founding Chapter and they are not derived directly from a First Founding Legion. (Unless you count the eight loyalists from the Traitor Legions) Their geneseed is explicitly stated to be that of the Emperor.