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FerrusFair wrote:Ward's worst offense in Codex: SM is clearly the blatant sidelining of the Iron Hands. His worst Ultramarines spank wasn't in the codex. It was in the interview he did re: 5e Codex Marines.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

I play Ultramarines, but I don't think any one chapter is truly the "best". Ultramarines are the most flexible, but as I recall in Horus Rising, Dorn and one of the other primarchs jested about who could sack an Imperial Fist fortress, and Dorn or Horus said how the siege would just go on forever because the two forces would be so evenly matched.

Brother Coa wrote:Title say it all. But I was wondering can someone enlighten me with this.
According to this there are 3 types of chapters in the Imperium.

Type 1 - Those who are called "scions of Guiliman". Who are descendant from his geenseed and who follow codex Astartes to the letter. It is also said that "Should the Lord of Ultramar ever find himself in need of aid, he will find these Chapters ever willing and able to fight at his side.", then why they didn't help them in Battle for Macragge? I recall that only Segmentum Tempestus fleet from Bakka helped them and noone else, why didn't these chapters helped them if they are so titled to them?

Type 2 - Their geen-seed is from another Primarch and they can never be Ultramarines. But they will "ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the Great Primarch". Titled Chapters are Imperial Fist, White Scars and Raven Guard, why would they put Guiliman teachings ahead of teachings of their own Primarchs?

Type 3 - Chapters who are aberrants with geen-seed mutations and stubbornness. it is said that "Blood Angels are striving to be worthy of Guliman legacy but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it." As far as I know Blood Angels are almost all cc assault Chapter and they are following teachings of Sanguinus. And last, Chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars who are following the path of their own Primarchs "care little in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes further with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." How can Space Wolves and Black Templars be few in numbers toward Ultramarines? And how can they be dying out when their numbers are constantly the same? And AFAIK Space Wolves do have few successor Chapters while BT have none, but how is this relevant toward dying out?

It's a bit difficult to easily bracket them like that. Like much else in 40k, it's a mixture of intention, progaganda and reality. As far as the Imperium is concerned, all chapters SHOULD be following the Codex Astartes and revering Guilliman as the one who wrote it, even if not as their 'liege lord' (espeically if they're decended from another Primarch. Even Chapters like the Blood Angels adhere to the Codex, with the exception of a few different units because of their dodgy Geneseed.

However, in reality, all sorts of different factors affect how closely chapter ACTUALLY follow it, so you have examples of...

* Ultramarines-descended Chapters who follow the Codex exactly.
* Ultramarines-descended Chapters who have moved away from the Codex due to cultural differences, new information, battle losses, such as the Iron Snakes
* Other chapters who follow the Codex - Imperial Fists and most of their successors.
* Chapters who follow the Codex, but with a few deviations because of their Primarch's way of war, history or weird genetic things - Blood Angels, Raven Guard, White Scars, Dark Angels
* Chapters who couldn't give a toss about the Codex, and do what they want - Space Wolves, Iron Hands, Black Templars

BrainDeleted wrote:Yeah, the Iron Hands took one on the chin in C:SM. All the other loyalist first foundings at least got a big block with their tiny amount of fluff inside (Barring the ones with their own codex), even the White Scars! The Iron Hands got lumped in with all the other random codex chapters...The Crimson Fists got one over them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. This book gave the Iron Hands as much fluff as the Astral Knights, and their infoblurb was about as big as that of the Doom Legion. Do you know who the Doom Legion is? Neither does anybody else.

Weren't they in the WWF?



No wait, my bad..

As much as people like to trash the 5th Edition Codex, and it is chock full of some silly fanboi-isms, but if you think about it, the vast majority of Space Marine Chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. For the twenty plus Second Founding chapters, they might as well be Ultramarines considering all of their original members were Ultramarines before the break up of the legions. Of course there would be a fair amount of reverence amongst the various Chapters (and probably some envy) that had to give up their Ultramarines heraldry. So yes, Guilliman is the spiritual liege of all of those chapters because over 3/4s of all Space Marine Chapters can trace their heritage back to the Ultramarines. This isn't some kind of spank that Mat Ward came up with masturbating in his closet, it makes sense if you take a few seconds to think about it.

Whether or not that makes them instantly and ultimately loyal to the current iteration of the Ultramarines is a different thing.

Mind you, a lot of people forget that Mat Ward didn't create a lot of this. Most of the source material he is working with comes from guys like Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson. The Ultramarines were called "the greatest of all Space Marine chapters" on the back cover of the 1995 Codex: Ultramarines. They've been part of the "Big Four" (Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves) for almost twenty years.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:This isn't some kind of spank that Mat Ward came up with masturbating in his closet

I want proof.


Wait no...I don't.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:As much as people like to trash the 5th Edition Codex, and it is chock full of some silly fanboi-isms, but if you think about it, the vast majority of Space Marine Chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. For the twenty plus Second Founding chapters, they might as well be Ultramarines considering all of their original members were Ultramarines before the break up of the legions. Of course there would be a fair amount of reverence amongst the various Chapters (and probably some envy) that had to give up their Ultramarines heraldry. So yes, Guilliman is the spiritual liege of all of those chapters because over 3/4s of all Space Marine Chapters can trace their heritage back to the Ultramarines. This isn't some kind of spank that Mat Ward came up with masturbating in his closet, it makes sense if you take a few seconds to think about it.

Whether or not that makes them instantly and ultimately loyal to the current iteration of the Ultramarines is a different thing.

Mind you, a lot of people forget that Mat Ward didn't create a lot of this. Most of the source material he is working with comes from guys like Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson. The Ultramarines were called "the greatest of all Space Marine chapters" on the back cover of the 1995 Codex: Ultramarines. They've been part of the "Big Four" (Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves) for almost twenty years.

Closer to 1/2 the chapters, or 2/5.

Also, the Ultramarines only kept the name, there is no other difference between them and say, the Doom Eagles.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Closer to 1/2 the chapters, or 2/5.

It's 3/5's. 5th edition Codex. pg. 8

The Ultramarine Legion is responsible for nearly 3/5 of the gene-core of the curent Space Marine Chapters.

Ronin wrote:
Really annoyed me, since the Imperial Fists and Raven Guard are my favourite First Founding Legions, and their Primarchs were also my favourite. To think they'd swallow their pride and disregard the teachings of their own Primarch? Pah! Fat chance. 'Type 2' Chapters are very proud of their heritage, and would only follow the Codex superficially (in terms of company divisions and deployment).

Incorrect, the Fists are noted to be the paragons of the Codex Astartes after the Ultramarines.

Ronin wrote:
Hell, IIRC, despite being a 'Codex' Chapter, the Raven Guard are known for their 'reckless' disregard of the Codex. In other words, Corax's bad boys are taking Roboute's Codex and telling him to shove it

Incorrect, the Raven Guard are noted to follow the Codex closely.

"Of these, more than half are descended from the Ultramarines" - Codex: Ultramarines, 1995 and Codex Space Marines, 2008

So it's definitely more than half. C:SM 5E lists it as 3/5 on page 8. But I know I've seen it in print that it's closer to 3/4. I can't remember where and it isn't worth it to search dozens of books. It's irrelevant to my greater point though if we're splitting hairs between .6 and .75. Still a distinct majority.

But, realistically, if the Ultramarines represented "more than half" of all loyalist forces at the time of re-organization into Chapters in 30K, and the Ultramarines' (or other Primogenitor Chapters') gene seed are used most often for the creation of new Chapters due to the extremely low defect level, then it stands to reason and simple math that by 40K, the percentage of Ultramarines derived Chapters would be a distinct and absurd majority.

As to the second part of your post, I can't find its relevance because I made no mention as to anything to the contrary. It sounds like exactly what I said, that the Primogenitor Chapters are essentially Ultramarines in everything but name.

Having a majority of the chapters out there be descended from Ultramarines doesn't make them all Ultramarines clones, which is the vibe you get from reading the latest codex. Time and distance would make most chapters not be Ultramrines clones. Even second founding chapters like the Iron Snakes have some notable deviations from the Codex, and ol' Uriel was pretty aghast at how the Mortifactors did things.

So, while I buy that most chapters keep close to Codex size for political purposes, I find it reeeeaaallllyyyyy unlikely that most chapters are so close to Ultramarines in personality and organization that they are cookie cutter, for all intents and purposes.

I don't think that's what anyone is suggesting.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:As much as people like to trash the 5th Edition Codex, and it is chock full of some silly fanboi-isms, but if you think about it, the vast majority of Space Marine Chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. For the twenty plus Second Founding chapters, they might as well be Ultramarines considering all of their original members were Ultramarines before the break up of the legions. Of course there would be a fair amount of reverence amongst the various Chapters (and probably some envy) that had to give up their Ultramarines heraldry. So yes, Guilliman is the spiritual liege of all of those chapters because over 3/4s of all Space Marine Chapters can trace their heritage back to the Ultramarines. This isn't some kind of spank that Mat Ward came up with masturbating in his closet, it makes sense if you take a few seconds to think about it.

Whether or not that makes them instantly and ultimately loyal to the current iteration of the Ultramarines is a different thing.

Mind you, a lot of people forget that Mat Ward didn't create a lot of this. Most of the source material he is working with comes from guys like Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson. The Ultramarines were called "the greatest of all Space Marine chapters" on the back cover of the 1995 Codex: Ultramarines. They've been part of the "Big Four" (Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves) for almost twenty years.

And if they called it "Codex: Ultramarines" like they did in my big ol' 2nd ed blue book, I'd be a bit more okay with the wankfest that is the 5e book. But to portray the Fap Ward codex as the baseline for upwards of 90% of all extant Space Marines, and to gloss over all the myriad differences - that could be explored in 4e via the traits - in favor of some characters who are basically "captain plus stubborn" (and don't get me started on the implications of THAT particular USR) is a disservice to everybody who doesn't want their 3000 point army to have a Captain, 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads, 2 assault squads, and five terminators.

Gree wrote:

Incorrect, the Fists are noted to be the paragons of the Codex Astartes after the Ultramarines.

"Second only to the ultramarines in terms of codex compliance" implies some deviations.

Also, the codex promotes swift, organic assaults, whereas the Imperial Fists, under chapter master Vladmir Pugh, are noted for planning meticulously. to the point of being slow to the battle, but with perfect strategy, just as the fists have always done.

Plus, they nearly had to go to war with the ultramarines because those pussies who weren't even defending their emperor on terra dared to tell the fists, who were the primary defense of terra, that they were fighting wrong.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gree wrote:

Incorrect, the Fists are noted to be the paragons of the Codex Astartes after the Ultramarines.

"Second only to the ultramarines in terms of codex compliance" implies some deviations.

Also, the codex promotes swift, organic assaults, whereas the Imperial Fists, under chapter master Vladmir Pugh, are noted for planning meticulously. to the point of being slow to the battle, but with perfect strategy, just as the fists have always done.

You are incorrect. IA Imperial Fists

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react. They retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare, although they are quite willing to engage and defeat the enemy in open battle. They will use fortifications on the defensive, but only after all more aggressive options have been exhausted. Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk.

Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead. Dorn used this time to retrain the Chapter to embrace all aspects of the Codex Astartes. When they later emerged, their adherence to the Codex was matched only by the Ultramarines

Pugh is not descibied as slow at all in the same article. Please also provide me a quote that says the Codex promots only swift assaults. The Codex Astartes covers all tactical situations to my knowledge.

Whilst not a particularly inspirational leader. Vladimir Pugh is as meticulous a planner as any Chapter Master in the Imperial Fists' history. In addition he excels in knowing who to promote and who to trust with critical missions - an appraising glance from Master Pugh can be bettered only by extensive probing from a Librarian. As a result when battle begins, Pugh can concentrate on commanding his Veteran reserve with absolute faith that his subordinates will not fail the Chapter.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Plus, they nearly had to go to war with the ultramarines because those pussies who weren't even defending their emperor on terra dared to tell the fists, who were the primary defense of terra, that they were fighting wrong.

You mean right after the Scouring, when the Ultramarines formed more than half the Astartes it the field and formed a vital part of the Imperial defense durign those dark times?

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, the codex promotes swift, organic assaults,

The Codex covers everything. The idea of swift, organic assaults is just something that would be imperative on the offensive for units as small as Space Marines tend to deploy in. Even an entire Chapter is a pretty small unit next to a division of Imperial Guard. They would typically focus on surgical strikes, shock assaults, etc, because that is what allows them to take advantage of their flexibility and heavy firepower while minimizing the weakness of their lack of manpower.

Just because a Chapter is specialized at one facet of warfare or another is somewhat irrelevant.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gree wrote:

Incorrect, the Fists are noted to be the paragons of the Codex Astartes after the Ultramarines.

"Second only to the ultramarines in terms of codex compliance" implies some deviations.

Also, the codex promotes swift, organic assaults, whereas the Imperial Fists, under chapter master Vladmir Pugh, are noted for planning meticulously. to the point of being slow to the battle, but with perfect strategy, just as the fists have always done.

You are incorrect. IA Imperial Fists

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react. They retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare, although they are quite willing to engage and defeat the enemy in open battle. They will use fortifications on the defensive, but only after all more aggressive options have been exhausted. Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk.

Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead. Dorn used this time to retrain the Chapter to embrace all aspects of the Codex Astartes. When they later emerged, their adherence to the Codex was matched only by the Ultramarines

Pugh is not descibied as slow at all in the same article. Please also provide me a quote that says the Codex promots only swift assaults. The Codex Astartes covers all tactical situations to my knowledge.

Whilst not a particularly inspirational leader. Vladimir Pugh is as meticulous a planner as any Chapter Master in the Imperial Fists' history. In addition he excels in knowing who to promote and who to trust with critical missions - an appraising glance from Master Pugh can be bettered only by extensive probing from a Librarian. As a result when battle begins, Pugh can concentrate on commanding his Veteran reserve with absolute faith that his subordinates will not fail the Chapter.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Plus, they nearly had to go to war with the ultramarines because those pussies who weren't even defending their emperor on terra dared to tell the fists, who were the primary defense of terra, that they were fighting wrong.

You mean right after the Scouring, when the Ultramarines formed more than half the Astartes it the field and formed a vital part of the Imperial defense durign those dark times?

1. Yeah I just realized my source was retconned. And it doesn't promote only swift assaults, I didn't say that. That is simply one of the more important aspects because that is when astartes are useful.

2. While the Imperial fists were busy crusading and keeping the enemy on the defensive?

Rogal Dorn's grief was immense in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy. Until that point, Dorn had been true, noble and enduring, but now he became an avenging son dressed in the black of mourning. Whereas other Legions, such as the Ultramarines, dedicated themselves to rebuilding the Imperium, the Imperial Fists launched a crusade against the Traitor Legions, hunting them down and levelling fortress after fortress. Yet the Legion was still cognisant of its broader role as it lent itself to direct calls for assistance by Imperial worlds and institutions more so than other Legions during this period. Nonetheless, Dorn was absent from the highest councils of the Imperium until he returned to Terra upon being summoned by Roboute Guilliman to be presented with the Codex Astartes

Right after the fists defended the Emperor, while the Ultramarines were across the galaxy, fighting a legion considerably smaller than themselves?

Dorn initially rejected the Codex Astartes and enmity developed between him and Guilliman. Dorn called Guilliman a coward, citing his lack of participation in the defense of the Imperial Palace. Guilliman accused Dorn of being a traitor for refusing the Codex. This enmity quickly involved other Space Marine Legions and a rift developed, Leman Russ of the Space Wolves and Vulkan of the Salamanders stood by the Imperial Fists, while Jaghatai Khan of the White Scars and Corax of the Raven Guard supported the Ultramarines. A second civil war appeared likely when the Imperial Fists strike cruiser Terrible Angel was fired upon by the Imperial Navy in connection with Codex crisis.15a However, Dorn ultimately relented after spending seven days meditating in the pain glove. There, he concluded that the Legion could no longer serve the Emperor who had been and must serve the Emperor who was, which involved accepting the new order of which the Codex was a part

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. While the Imperial fists were busy crusading and keeping the enemy on the defensive?

And while they were doing that the Ultramarines were forming more then half the Astartes in the field. The Ultramarines did more than the Fists by virtue of sheer numbers than anything else.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Right after the fists defended the Emperor, while the Ultramarines were across the galaxy, fighting a legion considerably smaller than themselves?

Actually no. It was not right after. The Codex Astartes was presented after a decade of total war in which the Ultramarines formed a vital link in holding the Imperium together.

IA Ultramarines

The enemies of Mankind, sensing the weakness of the Imperium, prepared to attack, but Roboute Guilliman vowed that the Emperor's realm would not fall and took it upon himself to hold it together. He despatched his Legion throughout the galaxy to stem the tide of invasion and unrest, holding the fragile Imperium together through a time of great danger. Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field. After almost a decade of total war, stability was restored to the galaxy and the philosophies of the Ultramarines' way of war had permeated almost every Legion. Under Guilliman's guidance, the holy Codex Astartes was taking shape and its doctrines would shape every future Space Marine force and lay the foundations for the Imperium's conventional military might.

Deathwatch Rites of Battle further expands on this noting how vital Guilliman was to the future of the Imperium.

Interestingly enough the Fists are noted to have gotten more flexible because they adopted the Codex Astartes in their own IA article even.

Thanks Guilliman.

Gree wrote:



Interestingly enough the Fists are noted to have gotten more flexible because they adopted the Codex Astartes in their own IA article even.

Thanks Guilliman.

Thanks gullyman?
Must be just your copy of it.


Or the fact the Imperial Fists space Marine Legion did it both ways, provided chapters and a crusading host.
Flexibility through application and non-application of the codex at the same time.

IA was a nice source. Was. ( 6-9 years old now. )
When it was published and the course of the background ran smoothly alongside these IA articles.
The codex astartes for example, was complete and the ultramarines followed it to the letter. ( IA ), yet the HH-series had the author of said CA creating it as guidelines and open to interpretation.

Things change, and the way the codex astartes is "seen", surely has.

Gulliman intended for it this....
The UM act yet that way....
10 millenia happend....

So I'd stop thanking Gulliman for his collection of wisdom from 10 millenia ago, as either there were later contributions or the codex is so outdated it isn't worth wasting time on research through such a tome. Feel free to credit the Primarchs which had their wisdom added to this book. Maybe the impressum got lost so they believe Gullian came up with everything written there alone in an ivory tower.

1hadhq wrote:
Or the fact the Imperial Fists space Marine Legion did it both ways, provided chapters and a crusading host.
Flexibility through application and non-application of the codex at the same time.

Except that's not how they are described as well. Fists commanders Pre-Codex were noted as unimaginative and straightforward when planning and leading. It’s only when they adopted the Codex did they get more flexible.

IA fists

Initially, the Imperial Fists were an inflexible formation; each Company had an identical organisation and Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative. Overall planning was excellent, however, and this, coupled with the unshakeable determination of the individual Fists, made them an excellent assault formation against static defences.

In the immediate aftermath of the Heresy, the Imperial Fists became noticeably fiercer in their approach -attacking with virtually no reconnaissance and fighting on when a tactical withdrawal would have been wiser. With their adoption of the Codex Astartes, this tendency was less evident, although their determination was undiminished. Some of the more fanatical Battle Brothers had departed to become Black Templars - a Chapter on permanent crusade. Many of the more recent initiates, less rooted in the traditions and philosophy of the Fists, had departed to found the Crimson Fists. They quickly developed a reputation and a legacy of their own which was also a source of pride for the Imperial Fists. After the carnage of the Iron Cage, what remained was a hardened, veteran force fully able to embrace the concepts of the Codex Astartes.

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react. They retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare, although they are quite willing to engage and defeat the enemy in open battle. They will use fortifications on the defensive, but only after all more aggressive options have been exhausted. Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk.

1hadhq wrote:
The codex astartes for example, was complete and the ultramarines followed it to the letter. ( IA ), yet the HH-series had the author of said CA creating it as guidelines and open to interpretation.

Said story was written by McNeill, whose interpretation of the Codex is frankly insane. (See my example about the Codex not containing basic protocols of improvised demolitions.)

1hadhq wrote:

So I'd stop thanking Gulliman for his collection of wisdom from 10 millenia ago, as either there were later contributions or the codex is so outdated it isn't worth wasting time on research through such a tome. Feel free to credit the Primarchs which had their wisdom added to this book. Maybe the impressum got lost so they believe Gullian came up with everything written there alone in an ivory tower.

The Codex id updated over the centuries.

Space Marine Codex, pg. 9

The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history. Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch. Others describe actual battles together with comments on the tactics employed and the decisions of the commanders of the day. As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.

Note the term guidelines. This is form the modern Marine Codex and has been reprinted multiple times in the past.

Basically McNeill say this and assumed that strict adherence to doctrine must mean the doctrine itself must be strict. His interpretation violates what's currently published in the Codices.

Why woudl the Imperium beleive Guilliman wrote alone when he got several sources from other Primarchs? And why would it be outdated?

And yet, the contribution would be minor, because in the Ultrmarines series, the Iron Warriors already know the tome so well as to be able to predict every move the Ultramarines would make.

And thing about IF pre-heresy being inflexible is outdated. They are now simply described as siege specialists who acted as the Emperor's reserve.

ALSO, They were a crusading legion, much as the black templars are now, and their raids Leveled fortress after fortress

Whereas other Legions, such as the Ultramarines, dedicated themselves to rebuilding the Imperium, the Imperial Fists launched a crusade against the Traitor Legions, hunting them down and levelling fortress after fortress. Yet the Legion was still cognisant of its broader role as it lent itself to direct calls for assistance by Imperial worlds and institutions more so than other Legions during this period

Also, Dorn was almost single-handedly responsible for destroying the first black crusade, which, during the period of instability the Imperium was in, would have likely destroyed it.

And it's easy to account for 1/2 the SM when your legion, already the biggest by virtue of being 3 legions rolled into one, didn't get depleted like the others were due to SAVING TERRA.

im2randomghgh wrote:And yet, the contribution would be minor, because in the Ultrmarines series, the Iron Warriors already know the tome so well as to be able to predict every move the Ultramarines would make.

Said book was also written by Graham McNeill, who contradicts to depiction in the Space Marine Codex and his interpretation is frankly daft. (See my earlier example)

Of course, one must question why the Codex would not include protocols dealing with enemies who have the Codex, considering the Codex was written after the Heresy , when Astartes went traitor, this seems like a glaring oversight.

I mean, if we go by the Codex: Space Marines depiction and not McNeill's depiction then the Codex wouldn't just state "you are fighting Dark Eldar, so do X". It would also depend on what forces the Codex Chapter and what forces the opposition has available. If the enemy has a lot of armour, use X. But if he has a lot of assault units, do Y. Of course, if your own force includes a lot of support units, you will be more apt at approach Z, while if your force includes a lot of mobile shock unit, it will be better suited to perform approach 01. So an opponent privy of the Codex would then have to know the exact force assets of the Codex Strike Force, and it would also have to know what the Codex commander knows about the opposing force. The opposing commander also would have to know the Codex commander's priorities and objectives (will he defend the shrine, evacuate the population, or focus entirely on hunting enemy forces), which will largely depend on the commander's preferences, not on specific Codex guidelines.

Bottom line, even with knowledge of the Codex, a Codex commander's approach would depend on a myriad of factors, not all of which are known to an opposing commander, and not all of which are based on the Codex. (Is the Codex force at full strength, or did it lose all of it's Assault squads in a prior engagement? It's approach will differ if that's had happened.) The Codex is meant to take all of those factors into account, and propose an effective strategy for the commander. If he has no assault unit, he will use a different tactic. If he intends to defend the shrine, or intends to protect the governour, he will use a different tactic. If he has a personal preference for heavy units, he will use a different tactic. If the strike force includes Terminators, he will use a different tactic than if it didn't. If his strike cruiser/battle barge is fully armed, he will use a different tactic than if it was low on stocks. If the Chapter is willing to co-ordinate with other Imperial elements such as the PDF (where the Dark Angels might not do so), he will use a different tactic.

Plus I thought you said Black Library wasn't canon, why are you citing it then?

im2randomghgh wrote:An
And thing about IF pre-heresy being inflexible is outdated

Why is it outdated? Can you give me a statement contradicting that?

im2randomghgh wrote:
ALSO, They were a crusading legion, much as the black templars are now, and their raids Leveled fortress after fortress

Yes and? How does that relate to my point?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Whereas other Legions, such as the Ultramarines, dedicated themselves to rebuilding the Imperium, the Imperial Fists launched a crusade against the Traitor Legions, hunting them down and levelling fortress after fortress. Yet the Legion was still cognisant of its broader role as it lent itself to direct calls for assistance by Imperial worlds and institutions more so than other Legions during this period

Where is this quote from?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Also, Dorn was almost single-handedly responsible for destroying the first black crusade, which, during the period of instability the Imperium was in, would have likely destroyed it.

You are incorrect. The first Black Crusade occurred long after the Scouring and the breaking of the Legions, when Imperial rule of solified. And he did not single handedly destroy it.

He did much damage, but the actual destruction was a result of the Imperial Navy.

IA Fists

There was no Chaos attack on Cadia. The Imperial Navy arrived in force while the Traitors were still licking their wounds. Released by the sudden disappearance of Ulthwe, Phalanx and the Imperial Fists led the Imperial counter-strike. They caught the Chaos fleet in the midst of repairs and routed it decisively. Even without their Primarch, the Imperial Fists were able to get to the right place at the right time. They boarded the Sword of Sacrilege before it could flee and recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis, their holiest icon, and serves as a constant reminder of the commitment expected of a Space Marine.

im2randomghgh wrote:

And it's easy to account for 1/2 the SM when your legion, already the biggest by virtue of being 3 legions rolled into one, didn't get depleted like the others were due to SAVING TERRA.

That’s nice. It doesn’t change the fact they pretty much held the Imperium together and did more than the Fists by virtue of sheer numbers.

im2randomghgh wrote:And yet, the contribution would be minor, because in the Ultrmarines series, the Iron Warriors already know the tome so well as to be able to predict every move the Ultramarines would make.

The question then becomes: What do you believe should be taken as more accurate? What GW has said about the Codex and the Ultramarines for almost twenty years, or what one Black Library license fiction author writes in his books?

Mind you, everything in 40K fluff is contradicted at some point because they have no fact checking or quality control at GW. What should be taken as true are things that make sense. If the Ultramarines are the most successful of Space Marine Chapters, then it would be idiotic to believe that Chaos Marines could predict every move an Ultramarine commander would make. The Codex would give commanders dozens, if not hundreds of ways to approach any given tactical or strategic situation. Even if they were well read on the most recent edition of the Codex (which seems unlikely), for the Iron Warriors to do such a thing would mean having to be prepared for hundreds of different outcomes, all at the same time. Which, though ridiculous, in all actuality would only speak to the effectiveness of the Codex as a comprehensive treatise on war, since the Iron Warriors had to follow its doctrines to be successful in the defense. But, that whole idea, like most of what Codex critics on these kinds of forums seem to believe, is incredibly stupid.

The entire idea of the Codex is to take humanity's greatest warriors, and give them an expansive tome to refine and perfect their combat tactics and set a standard by which Marines are trained and kept combat ready (something every real world military does). I really don't understand what drives so much of the Ultramarines hate. They've never been the most exciting or interesting of Chapters, but at worst you could just call them sort of vanilla. But there seems to be some very deep seated, irrational nerd-hate for them amongst 40K communities that doesn't seem to have any basis in the rational, reasonable, or intelligent. Yeah, so Mat Ward likes Ultramarines, and wrote some stuff in a Codex. But he wasn't the one who called them "The greatest of the Space Marine chapters". That was Rick Priestley. You know him. One of the founders of 40K. The part about the bulk of Marine chapters being descended from the Ultramarines? Priestley. Most of these stories existed before Ward compiled them into a Codex, but even so, Codex: Space Marines is hardly the first SM codex (from any chapter) with some downright absurd gak written in it, lol.

English Assassin wrote:[sarcasm]So you're suggesting that perhaps some people dislike Mat Ward's hyperbolic writing and resent the Ultramarines' poster-boy status?

Thanks for that, I'd never otherwise have known.[/sarcasm]

Wow look for clever that sarcasm is [/sarcasm]

DoctorZombie wrote:

FerrusFair wrote:Ward's worst offense in Codex: SM is clearly the blatant sidelining of the Iron Hands. His worst Ultramarines spank wasn't in the codex. It was in the interview he did re: 5e Codex Marines.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

I play Ultramarines, but I don't think any one chapter is truly the "best". Ultramarines are the most flexible, but as I recall in Horus Rising, Dorn and one of the other primarchs jested about who could sack an Imperial Fist fortress, and Dorn or Horus said how the siege would just go on forever because the two forces would be so evenly matched.

That was horus, and he said it was because the Imperial Fists were the best in defense and the Luna Wolves were the best in attack.

ANd I agree, each chapter has it's specialties. The Ultramarines would be worse than the fists in a siege, worse than the White Scars at lightning raids, worse than the Salamanders at playing with fire.

But at the same time, they are probably better than the IF at Playing with fire, better than the white scars at siege, and better than the Salamanders at fast attacks.

You know what I mean?

And also, If you look at the fluff of any chapter, you can quickly be convinced that they are the best.

For example, the Fists utilize a huge amount of heavy weaponry due to their siege specialization, and are expert swordsmen due to honour duelling, and would be just about immune to pain because of the pain glove.

And Salamanders are basically immune to heat and should have armour that counts as artificer etc.

White Scars could have discounted bikes for troops etc.

You see where this is going.

Though I do think it would be interesting to have a codex: 1st founding because you could have at least a SMALL reflection of what makes these chapters unique.

im2randomghgh wrote:

For example, the Fists utilize a huge amount of heavy weaponry due to their siege specialization,.

No they don’t. They are good at sieges but we have no indication at all in the fluff they have more siege equipment than a Codex Chapter.

im2randomghgh wrote:
and are expert swordsmen due to honour duelling,
.

The Fists like to engage in honor dueling, but that does not make them automatically better swordsman than other Chapters.

im2randomghgh wrote:
and would be just about immune to pain because of the pain glove.

The Fists like to punish themselves with pain but that does not make them more immune. Indeed, if they were immune to pain it would defeat the purpose of the Pain Glove.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And yet, the contribution would be minor, because in the Ultrmarines series, the Iron Warriors already know the tome so well as to be able to predict every move the Ultramarines would make.

Said book was also written by Graham McNeill, who contradicts to depiction in the Space Marine Codex and his interpretation is frankly daft. (See my earlier example)

Of course, one must question why the Codex would not include protocols dealing with enemies who have the Codex, considering the Codex was written after the Heresy , when Astartes went traitor, this seems like a glaring oversight.

I mean, if we go by the Codex: Space Marines depiction and not McNeill's depiction then the Codex wouldn't just state "you are fighting Dark Eldar, so do X". It would also depend on what forces the Codex Chapter and what forces the opposition has available. If the enemy has a lot of armour, use X. But if he has a lot of assault units, do Y. Of course, if your own force includes a lot of support units, you will be more apt at approach Z, while if your force includes a lot of mobile shock unit, it will be better suited to perform approach 01. So an opponent privy of the Codex would then have to know the exact force assets of the Codex Strike Force, and it would also have to know what the Codex commander knows about the opposing force. The opposing commander also would have to know the Codex commander's priorities and objectives (will he defend the shrine, evacuate the population, or focus entirely on hunting enemy forces), which will largely depend on the commander's preferences, not on specific Codex guidelines.

Bottom line, even with knowledge of the Codex, a Codex commander's approach would depend on a myriad of factors, not all of which are known to an opposing commander, and not all of which are based on the Codex. (Is the Codex force at full strength, or did it lose all of it's Assault squads in a prior engagement? It's approach will differ if that's had happened.) The Codex is meant to take all of those factors into account, and propose an effective strategy for the commander. If he has no assault unit, he will use a different tactic. If he intends to defend the shrine, or intends to protect the governour, he will use a different tactic. If he has a personal preference for heavy units, he will use a different tactic. If the strike force includes Terminators, he will use a different tactic than if it didn't. If his strike cruiser/battle barge is fully armed, he will use a different tactic than if it was low on stocks. If the Chapter is willing to co-ordinate with other Imperial elements such as the PDF (where the Dark Angels might not do so), he will use a different tactic.

Plus I thought you said Black Library wasn't canon, why are you citing it then?

im2randomghgh wrote:An
And thing about IF pre-heresy being inflexible is outdated

Why is it outdated? Can you give me a statement contradicting that?

im2randomghgh wrote:
ALSO, They were a crusading legion, much as the black templars are now, and their raids Leveled fortress after fortress

Yes and? How does that relate to my point?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Whereas other Legions, such as the Ultramarines, dedicated themselves to rebuilding the Imperium, the Imperial Fists launched a crusade against the Traitor Legions, hunting them down and levelling fortress after fortress. Yet the Legion was still cognisant of its broader role as it lent itself to direct calls for assistance by Imperial worlds and institutions more so than other Legions during this period

Where is this quote from?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Also, Dorn was almost single-handedly responsible for destroying the first black crusade, which, during the period of instability the Imperium was in, would have likely destroyed it.

You are incorrect. The first Black Crusade occurred long after the Scouring and the breaking of the Legions, when Imperial rule of solified. And he did not single handedly destroy it.

He did much damage, but the actual destruction was a result of the Imperial Navy.

IA Fists

There was no Chaos attack on Cadia. The Imperial Navy arrived in force while the Traitors were still licking their wounds. Released by the sudden disappearance of Ulthwe, Phalanx and the Imperial Fists led the Imperial counter-strike. They caught the Chaos fleet in the midst of repairs and routed it decisively. Even without their Primarch, the Imperial Fists were able to get to the right place at the right time. They boarded the Sword of Sacrilege before it could flee and recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis, their holiest icon, and serves as a constant reminder of the commitment expected of a Space Marine.

im2randomghgh wrote:

And it's easy to account for 1/2 the SM when your legion, already the biggest by virtue of being 3 legions rolled into one, didn't get depleted like the others were due to SAVING TERRA.

That’s nice. It doesn’t change the fact they pretty much held the Imperium together and did more than the Fists by virtue of sheer numbers.

1. The codex is guidelines. It would propose a method of doing something. It cannot go into the detail you seem to think it can. Warfare is too chaotic for any physical book to hold every answer to every possible situation.

2. A statement contradicting that it's outdated? Your English is abominable.

3. You were saying they did comparatively little. While the Ultramarines were out acting like red cross, the Imperial Fists were ravaging the traitor legion, getting gak done.

4. Index Astartes II: Imperial Fists pg. 14-15

5.

Rogal Dorn died fighting on board a Chaos ship, after attacking a Black Crusade fleet with a vastly outnumbered force. Seeing the importance of attacking the enemy fleet while they were still preparing he relied on hit-and-run attacks until his reinforcements could arrive. Dorn died on board the Despoiler Class Battleship Sword of Sacrilege after leading a desperate attack on its bridge. His remains were recovered and his engraved skeletal hand is kept in stasis by his chapter

He was picking them apart before reinforcements arrived, and it doesn't even say they arrived at all.

6. It still doesn't matter, while the IF were at war, you know that thing astartes are bred for? Yeah that, while the IF were doing that, the ultramarines were rebuilding. Not defending, rebuilding. They were not waging war in any form, they were writing a book!

And your own quotes seem to demonstrate that they were taking quantity rather than quality of troops at that point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

For example, the Fists utilize a huge amount of heavy weaponry due to their siege specialization,.

No they don’t. They are good at sieges but we have no indication at all in the fluff they have more siege equipment than a Codex Chapter.

im2randomghgh wrote:
and are expert swordsmen due to honour duelling,
.

The Fists like to engage in honor dueling, but that does not make them automatically better swordsman than other Chapters.

im2randomghgh wrote:
and would be just about immune to pain because of the pain glove.

The Fists like to punish themselves with pain but that does not make them more immune. Indeed, if they were immune to pain it would defeat the purpose of the Pain Glove.

1. I didn't say they deploy more. I said they'd likely have more, in their armouries. Which would mean easier/faster to replace heavy weapons lost in combat, and most likely a higher quantity of master crafted weapons.

2. It means they are very, very likely to be better. Most chapters practice against combat servitors in cages, practicing against astartes would be much more helpful. Plus, they have their feet in cement blocks while they do it, meaning they can do a lot without moving even having to circle their opponents, since realistically you can't circle your opponent on a battlefield, only in duels.

3. It would make them more resistant to it. The human body adapts to harsh circumstances.

@Gree - The Imperial Fists are not just yellow Ultramarines. They have their own doctrines, traditions, and do not obey the Codex to the letter. They are still a defensive siege orientated Chapter who obey their own Primarch's teachings. And Guilliman's Ultramarines are not better the the Imperial Fists, or any other Legion for that matter.

Deathly Angel wrote:@Gree - The Imperial Fists are not just yellow Ultramarines. They have their own doctrines, traditions, and do not obey the Codex to the letter. They are still a defensive siege orientated Chapter who obey their own Primarch's teachings. And Guilliman's Ultramarines are not better the the Imperial Fists, or any other Legion for that matter.

+1!

I think Gree is the username chosen by Matt Ward.

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. The codex is guidelines. It would propose a method of doing something. It cannot go into the detail you seem to think it can. Warfare is too chaotic for any physical book to hold every answer to every possible situation.

I never claimed it can go into exact detail of everything. I even pulled up the quote for it to be guidelines. That’s exactly what I’m claiming. Did you not read my first post in this thread?

im2randomghgh wrote:

2. A statement contradicting that it's outdated? Your English is abominable.

So in other words you can’t provide the statement.

im2randomghgh wrote:

3. You were saying they did comparatively little. While the Ultramarines were out acting like red cross, the Imperial Fists were ravaging the traitor legion, getting gak done.

The Ultramarines were also fighting the traitors, their quote says that. They participated in a decade of total war. It was the Ultramarines who took out the Olympia garrison.

im2randomghgh wrote:

4. Index Astartes II: Imperial Fists pg. 14-15

Not sure what you are addressing here.

im2randomghgh wrote:

He was picking them apart before reinforcements arrived, and it doesn't even say they arrived at all.

And he died while doing it, he caused the damage that helped lead to the Imperial Navy coming in and destroying them, but he did not single handed cause their destruction.

im2randomghgh wrote:

6. It still doesn't matter, while the IF were at war, you know that thing astartes are bred for? Yeah that, while the IF were doing that, the ultramarines were rebuilding. Not defending, rebuilding. They were not waging war in any form, they were writing a book!

Index Astartes Ultramarines would contradict you, as would the Space Marine Codex.

I will post the IA example since you have seem to have missed it.

He despatched his Legion throughout the galaxy to stem the tide of invasion and unrest, holding the fragile Imperium together through a time of great danger. Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field. After almost a decade of total war, stability was restored to the galaxy and the philosophies of the Ultramarines' way of war had permeated almost every Legion. Under Guilliman's guidance, the holy Codex Astartes was taking shape and its doctrines would shape every future Space Marine force and lay the foundations for the Imperium's conventional military might.

Pg. 13 of the Marine Codex. This is from the 5th edition Codex but it was reprinted fromt he Second Edition one.

‘’The confusion and disorder following the Horus Heresy had left the Imperium weak and vulnerable Everywhere the enemies of mankind prepared to attack. Many worlds remained in the grip of Chaos. Into this breach stepped Roboute Guilliman and the Ultramarines found themselves divided and dispatched all over the Imperium in a desperate effort to stem the tide of invasion and unrest.

The Ultramarines successfully held the Imperium together during a tiem of intense danger. Macragge was able to supply new recruits at such a rather that before long the Ultramarines alone accounted for more than half the total number of Space Marines, and few systems where their heroism was unnoticed.

Within a decade, order was restored to the Imperium. Even as the Ultramarines reconquered, a new theory of warfare was emerging.

The Codex is quite clear. The Ultramarines participated quite heavily in the fighting.

IA Iron Warriors

The rest of the Iron Warriors defended their small empire based on Olympia, but there was no refuge from the retribution of the loyalist Legions. The Imperial Fists supported the Ultramarines in a decade-long campaign to liberate the subjugated worlds. They discovered the Iron Warriors to be like a barbed hook that, once embedded into a victim, could only be removed with great risk of injuring the patient further. The Olympia garrison held out for two years, eventually triggering their missile stockpiles when defeat was unavoidable. They left a blasted wasteland that, like the other Traitor Legion home worlds, was declared Perdita.

The Ultramarines are clearly mentioned as taking apart in the Olympia campaign, curiously the Imperial Fists are mentioned in a supporting role, implying that the Ultramarines are conducting the main campaign

im2randomghgh wrote:

And your own quotes seem to demonstrate that they were taking quantity rather than quality of troops at that point.

Where does it indicate at all that they were taking quantity instead of quality? The Ultramarines were spread all over the galaxy. Their brother Legions had been decimated. It’s only logical that they recruit more Astartes to cover more ground. There is nothing that even remotely implies the Ultramarines are of inferior stock.

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. I didn't say they deploy more. I said they'd likely have more, in their armouries. Which would mean easier/faster to replace heavy weapons lost in combat, and most likely a higher quantity of master crafted weapons.

You said ‘’utilize’’, not ‘’they possess more equipment’’ indicating they operate said equipment in greater number rather than just having more of them.

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. It means they are very, very likely to be better. Most chapters practice against combat servitors in cages, practicing against astartes would be much more helpful.

Astartes practice against servitor as part of their training, but why would other Astartes chapters not fight against other Astartes?

im2randomghgh wrote:
, they have their feet in cement blocks while they do it, meaning they can do a lot without moving even having to circle their opponents, since realistically you can't circle your opponent on a battlefield, only in duels.

Realistically you certainly can circle your opponent on a battlefield. It’s a maneuver called flanking. Why would they be unable to?

And also, footwork is a very important part of real life swordsmanship, so restricting your movement is a bad idea. But of course the example provided in Space Marine is an honor duel, not a training one. which as I recall was stopped at first blood.

im2randomghgh wrote:

3. It would make them more resistant to it. The human body adapts to harsh circumstances.

And if they were more resistant to it then it would defeat the entire purpose of the pain glove being a punishment device now wouldn’t it?

If I stab myself in the arm, wait for it to heal and do it over and over again, it will still hurt the arm very time, unless I damaged a nerve.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Deathly Angel wrote:@Gree - The Imperial Fists are not just yellow Ultramarines. They have their own doctrines, traditions, and do not obey the Codex to the letter. They are still a defensive siege orientated Chapter who obey their own Primarch's teachings. And Guilliman's Ultramarines are not better the the Imperial Fists, or any other Legion for that matter.

+1!

I think Gree is the username chosen by Matt Ward.

No offense, but you write posts like you're more hard up for the Imperial Fists than Mat Ward is for the Ultramarines.

At least Mat Ward seems to have read his 40K history. You suggested the Ultramarines didn't participate in the war after the Heresy (but were writing a book), when the fluff that says they led the way in doing that dates back twenty years and hasn't changed. A lot of people seem to take offense to the idea that the Ultramarines were uniquely positioned following the Heresy to rise to prominence. That's just the way GW decided to write the history. But they also didn't get much glory in the Heresy, and didn't take part in the battle for Terra, which several other Legions can proudly claim. Heck, the original Horus Heresy fluff just said the Ultramarines destroyed a large force of Chaos reinforcements. The more detailed stories didn't come about until the last few years and it turned out that the massive Chaos force the Ultramarines defeated were the Word Bearers. And GW was even nice enough to the Ultramarines haters to amend the fluff to suggest that the Ultramarines didn't just crush them. So yeah, the Ultramarines became the poster boys for GW. That's mostly because they are relatively "standard" for Space Marines. Their back story doesn't require lengthy explanation as to why they have fangs and drink blood, or pony tails, or wear bathrobes. GW could have chosen any Chapter I guess. The Crimson Fists were on the cover of the original Rogue Trader book, but then they sort of fell off the map until 3rd Edition when the Big Four became Blood Angles, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines in 2nd Edition. But the guys in charge chose the Ultramarines, for whatever reason. And thus the history was set down.