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1hadhq wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Although one thing you got wrong were the reasons for the IF successor splits. Black Templars were the fanatics, IF the most loyal, Soul Drinkers the shock assault specialist, CF the rational.

Otherwise, +1!

Soul drinkers do not exist in the second founding fluff.
But otherwise I may have been to fast and missed to reread what I said. got it mixed-up..

Because they are purged by the order of the inquisiton. They are now only included as a footnote of sorts. You have to read their books in order to get their story.

Seeing your lack of response to my preivous refutation of your argument should I assume you concede the point on the Grey Knights/Marines contridiction then?

Gree wrote:Seeing your lack of response to me preivous refutation of your argument should I assume you concede the point on the Grey Knights/Marines contridiction then?

I responded to it twice.

Then you appearantly missed this post I posted a few minutes ago on pg. three at the end of the page.

im2randomghgh wrote:Did it say all the chapters were full strength?

Why would they create a bunch of chapters that are not at full strength?

Of course that does not change the fact that is says 400 chapters were created and the Marine Codex clearly shows only 30 mentioned out of the Legions. Them being a full strength is irrelevant.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, you seem to fail to realize that not every single gene-seed organ in existence was inside a space marine. They can create more, especially in that era.

Creation of a Space Marine states the creation of new geneseed from existing geneseed takes about 55 years.

But as I mentioned that is irrelevant. That does not change the fact that 400 chapters were created yet the Marine Codex showed only 30 chapters created.

Of course if they can create vast numbers of new geneseed quickly then why create a mass of understrength chapters instead of making sure the current ones were at full strength? I fhtye can create that much geneseed why were the numbers of the Imperial Fists and blood Angels not rebult quickly? Why would the Legions be stated to consist of only ten thousand men if they could make Marines that easily and quickly?

im2randomghgh wrote:
The mechanicus regulates enormous amounts of gene-seed.

As part of the Codex Astartes reforms brought about by the Second Founding. The Space Marine Codex on pg. 8 explains that such practices were set up as a result of the Second Founding, in other words at the time the Legions were beign broken up.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, if the only way to create a chapter was to use existing marines (which is ONE way) then they would be unable to create them in the 41st millenium because and entire chapter would have to be moved, which would just be a name change.

That’s all well and nice but that does not change the fact that of the Second Founding the Marine Codex only lists 30 Astartes and not 400.

Let me give you this quote. 5th Edition Codex pg. 8

Each of the Second Founding Chapters is derived directly from a First Founding Chapter and initially shared the same geneseed. Subsequently the new Chapter’s geneseed was isolated, forming a new genetic line.

It clearly states that each new chapter came directly from a First Founding Chapter. And of course this also contradicts the Grey Knights Codex since the Grey Knights are stated to be a Second Founding Chapter and they are not derived directly from a First Founding Legion. (Unless you count the eight loyalists from the Traitor Legions) Their geneseed is explicitly stated to be that of the Emperor.

@ the 30 chapters vs. 400, they are obviously not going to name all 400, just the important ones.

im2randomghgh wrote:@ the 30 chapters vs. 400, they are obviously not going to name all 400, just the important ones.

And then we have a statement in the Codex of the Ultramarines dividing into only 23 Chapters but not all are named.

The Second Founding of the Space Marines was decreed seven years after the death of Horus. Most of the old Legions were divided into fewer than five chapters, but the Ultramarines were divided many times. The exact number of Chapters created from the Ultramarines in uncertain, the number listed in the oldest copy of the Codex Astartes gives the total of 23 but does not name them.

So most Legions divded into less than five chapters (Some like the Salamanders did not divide at all) and the oldest records in the Imperium indicate 23 chapters for the Ultramarines.

Of course that still is a contridiction as the Grey Knights are not derived directly from a First Founding Legion.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:@ the 30 chapters vs. 400, they are obviously not going to name all 400, just the important ones.

And then we have a statement in the Codex of the Ultramarines dividing into only 23 Chapters but not all are named.

The Second Founding of the Space Marines was decreed seven years after the death of Horus. Most of the old Legions were divided into fewer than five chapters, but the Ultramarines were divided many times. The exact number of Chapters created from the Ultramarines in uncertain, the number listed in the oldest copy of the Codex Astartes gives the total of 23 but does not name them.

So most Legions divded into less than five chapters (Some like the Salamanders did not divide at all) and the oldest records in the Imperium indicate 23 chapters for the Ultramarines.

Of course that still is a contridiction as the Grey Knights are not derived directly from a First Founding Legion.

That's how many were divided. The ones created directly from gene-seed would be created, not divided.

Also, that would mean that the Ultrasmurfs had 23,000 marines, which means YOU contradict yourself.

im2randomghgh wrote:
That's how many were divided. The ones created directly from gene-seed would be created, not divided.

But none were created outside the Legions. Our quote is quite clear all were divided directly from the Legions.

I'll post it again.

Each of the Second Founding Chapters is derived directly from a First Founding Chapter and initially shared the same geneseed. Subsequently the new Chapter’s geneseed was isolated, forming a new genetic line.

Pg. 7

If the Chapter was created from scratch then they would not be derived directly from a Legion as say the Crimson Fists or Novamarines.

Upon the Codex’s implementation, each old Legion became a chapter named for its forebear plus a number of new Chapters. These new Chapters were known as the Second Founding.

Again, the Second Founding Chapters were those that were formed from the Old Legions, not those created from scratch using their geneseed.

5th Edition Codex Space Wolves. pg 9

The original Space Marine Legions were broken up into smaller chapters and a code was drawn up to define their role and jurisdiction within the Imperium. This Code was called the Codex Astartes. Whereas before the Heresy a Space Marine Legion might number ten thousand or more warriors, under the new order a chapter’s size was limited to a thousand. The original Legion survived as a smaller chapter and continued to keep its old name, but he remaining Space Marine warriors were organized into new chapters.

The new Chapters became known as the Second Founding.

Again, only the chapters formed from the Legions were known as the Second Founding. We have absolutely no mention whatsoever of new chapters being created not from the Legions directly but from scratch as being part of the Second Founding.

I will once again point out that the Grey Knights are a Second Founding Chapter but do not derive from a First Founding Legion, thus making this statement another contridiction.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, that would mean that the Ultrasmurfs had 23,000 marines, which means YOU contradict yourself.

How so?

We know the average Legion consisted of ten thousand men, but the Ultramarines were always stated to be the largest of the Legions in the Marine Codex and they appearantly recruited much during the Scouring. If there is a contridiction then it is the Codex contridicting itself since I've drawn all my evidence from the Codex.

Of course we don't know exactly how many Ultramarines existed, but if they were over 300,000 Astartes strong then they would be larger than every other Legion both loyalist and traitor combined.

And of course the Second Founding is explicitly stated to have occurred seven years after the defeat of Horus. (Curiously though the Scouring is mentioned to have taken a decade) if apparently almost 400,000 Astartes can be raised in seven years then the Legions could have been rebuilt quickly to well past their original numbers during the Scouring. Of course if almost 400,000 Astartes can be raised in seven years, one questions why the Emperor has his Legions at a mere ten thousand men when he has centuries to make many more Astartes. Apparently according to you almost 400,000 Astartes were created in a mere seven years since the end of the Horus Heresy. So apparently in seven years the Imperium could make twice as much Astartes than the Emperor had in the Great Crusade for centuries.

I read for about 10 minutes, but the Text kept coming....

Anyway, I think the idea behind the Ultramarines Codex is that it focuses on learning from military history and the ability to apply those lessons through a flexible fighting force capable of responding with the greatest degree of success in any given situation.

The Codex creates a scientific method for the study of conflict, and teaches the art of applying those lessons on a battlefield.

Gree wrote:Their geneseed is explicitly stated to be that of the Emperor.

Codex GK? It not as clear cut as you make it out to be. "given the gift of the Emperor's mind and body" or some such nonsense, which can easily be interpreted as many different things. (their psychic resistances, unshakable faith, psyker power boosts, fancy daemon heart carving skills, varying levels of incorruptible, I'm devolving here so I will leave it at that)

CpatTom wrote:
Codex GK? It not as clear cut as you make it out to be. "given the gift of the Emperor's mind and body" or some such nonsense, which can easily be interpreted as many different things. (their psychic resistances, unshakable faith, psyker power boosts, fancy daemon heart carving skills, varying levels of incorruptible, I'm devolving here so I will leave it at that)

P.7

The Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws that had gone before, and which carried the gifts of the Emperor’s own flesh and soul.

It's pretty clear.
They were not derived from a First Founding Legion. But this contradicts the Marine Codex.

"the gifts of the Emperor’s own flesh and soul" =/= Geneseed

It may, but it doesn't say "the gifts of the Emperor’s own [Geneseed]". That's explicit an undeniable.

What would stop the group of not traitor traitor marines for being the basis for the GK geneseed (plus a lil Emp modifications so that they were as Anathema and incorruptible as the big guy).

Edit for reason I'm hair splitting: Sorry, recently had an argument with some folks on abortion who all wanted to assume things without proper clarification of terms. So, I'm being super overly picky about properly representing what is supported by evidence.

CpatTom wrote:"the gifts of the Emperor’s own flesh and soul" =/= Geneseed

It may, but it doesn't say "the gifts of the Emperor’s own [Geneseed]". That's explicit an undeniable.

What would stop the group of not traitor traitor marines for being the basis for the GK geneseed (plus a lil Emp modifications so that they were as Anathema and incorruptible as the big guy)

Because it's stated to be a brand new geneseed.

But even if it's not the Emperor's then it still does not change my point. The Grey Knights did not derive from a First Founding Chapter.

I never said it was a First Founding chapter, it wasn't, but just wanted to point out that it isn't, in fact explicitly the Emp's geneseed.

Mashing up a whole bunch of Legions gene seed can't be considered "brand new"?

Edits for spelling/readability.

CpatTom wrote:
Mashing up a whole bunch of Legions gene seed can't be considered "brand new"?

No, because it would still contain the old geneseed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grey_Album

.........not sure how that's relevant.

I consider it a brand new album. Before I had listened to it, I had already heard all of sounds that would be in the songs, but it was still brand new when I listened to the Grey Album.

CpatTom wrote:I consider it a brand new album. Before I had listened to it, I had already heard all of sounds that would be in the songs, but it was still brand new when I listened to the Grey Album.

If it existed before then it would not be brand new as parts of it would be introduced before it was made.

Then how is any geneseed brand new if it has to contain enough similar elements to be defined as geneseed?

CpatTom wrote:Then how is any geneseed brand new if it has to contain enough similar elements to be defined as geneseed?

Because obviously the geneseed of Roboute Guilliman does not contain the same genetics that Leman Russ's geneseed might have. The indivdual geneseed drawns genetic information from each Primarch to make it unique. Therefore a brand new geneseed would have none of the genetics that define each indivdual geneseed. A brand new geneseed would contain nothing from the Primarchs.

Then why call it geneseed?

CpatTom wrote:Then why call it geneseed?

Because it's geneseed. It's just not Guilliman's geneseed or Russ's geneseed as it would not contain any of their genetic markers at all.

Then how is it brand new if it has enough in common with geneseed to be called geneseed?

By the definition of brand new we are working with, it must be entirely new. It cannot produce space marines, because that geneseed already exists, and the ability to do so would make the geneseed what? New, but not brand new?

But its stated to be a brand new geneseed, so either the definition is wrong concerning what is brand new, or the source is wrong.

So, brand new must be changed to include those things that include elements of things before them, but combined in a brand new way, or with enough brand new elements.

So, the geneseed could be derived from the traitor not traitor marines.

CpatTom wrote:Then how is it brand new if it has enough in common with geneseed to be called geneseed?

Because it contains none of the Primarchs DNA?

CpatTom wrote:
By the definition of brand new we are working with, it must be entirely new.

It is.

CpatTom wrote: It cannot produce space marines, because that geneseed already exists, and the ability to do so would make the geneseed what? New, but not brand new?

It cannot produce Ultramarines or Space Wolves, but it can produce Grey Knights. I'm not sure what the problem is here.

CpatTom wrote:
But its stated to be a brand new geneseed, so either the definition is wrong concerning what is brand new, or the source is wrong.

The definition remains the same.

CpatTom wrote:
So, brand new must be changed to include those things that include elements of things before them, but combined in a brand new way, or with enough brand new elements.

Why must it be?

CpatTom wrote:
So, the geneseed could be derived from the traitor not traitor marines.

No it could not.

There are elements in the GK seed shared with the other space marine geneseed, correct? Which, by the earlier stated definition makes it not brand new, because it uses elements of something that already existed, so, if it is a brand new geneseed, then Grey Knights cannot be space marines, because they can share nothing with other space marines because their codex states they have a brand new geneseed.

CpatTom wrote:There are elements in the GK seed shared with the other space marine geneseed, correct?

No it’s a new geneseed, I already told you.

CpatTom wrote: Which, by the earlier stated definition makes it not brand new, because it uses elements of something that already existed, so, if it is a brand new geneseed, then Grey Knights cannot be space marines, because they can share nothing with other space marines because their codex states they have a brand new geneseed.

Let me rephrase it like this

They have a brand new type of geneseed.

Are you satisfied now Mr. Nitpicky?

Of course you might as well complain about Grey Knights not actualy being grey.

CpatTom wrote:I never said it was a First Founding chapter, it wasn't, but just wanted to point out that it isn't, in fact explicitly the Emp's geneseed.

Mashing up a whole bunch of Legions gene seed can't be considered "brand new"?

Edits for spelling/readability.

It's from the Emperor, it says that. It does not say anything else.

Gree wrote:

CpatTom wrote:
Mashing up a whole bunch of Legions gene seed can't be considered "brand new"?

No, because it would still contain the old geneseed.

Yeah, no.

My DNA is a mix of the DNA of my parents and ancestors, but it is 100% unique and never before seen. Same with the geneseed. Mix one and two and you get three, not one and two.

Same with mixing electrons and protons. Move them around and they become a new element, or a new molecule.

Plus, if they were made from the Emperor, I think they would be more custode-looking. That's just me though. And yes, I recognize that custodians don't have gene-seed.

So going by your lack of reply to my main point should I assume you concede the argument about the number of Second Founding Chapters?

Oh My God, can we drop this now. Index Astartes is superceeded. I have watched this develop and we are getting no where with either party.

I don't even care who is right or wrong any more.