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In another topic someone asked "Would GW be improved if they were taken over by WotC?"
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/408811.page

It's an interesting question, and a big part of the discussion is whether one large corporation is better than another. But here's another little twist on the original question; How much of 40k is influenced by it's birthplace?

In the beginning, 40k was quintessentially British. There was the deep-set cynical humour of a generation that was born after the war and the rebuilding of a socialist country, a fear Thatcher was leading the country into fascism, and a cynical distrust of blind, uncaring bureacracy. It's the same mindset that birthed The Sex Pistols and the Clash, Alan Moore, Monty Python and Terry Gilliiam (American-born, but Brazil and Time Bandits could only be produced in England) and Red Dwarf. The WH fluff felt more subversive and steeped in nihilism and irony. Looking at the original company, Games Workshop was started by bikers, nerds and hippies. There were more than a few -A- tatoos and Harleys.

So I'm curious to hear especially from other old farts like me; do you still see Warhammer and 40k as British product, or has it been culturally sanitized to the point it is separate from the culture that originally created it? (how's that for adding personal bias to a question?)

Considering they've licensed their products to the American THQ, the Canadian Relic, and the American Fantasy Flight, Warhammer is pretty much an international brand.

GW still focuses much of their market in the UK still.

Either way, we can all agree it's certainly not an Australian brand.

Don't forget EA. The largest shame imaginable for the company. GW has licensed its work to so many companies its hardly British anymore. And no matter what they say the people given the license do not adhere to the mentality that birthed the IP.

I got into 40k about 12 years ago, It has never felt all that British to me, it never really felt all that anything to me, it was just a game. It sounds like I jumped into the game when they were moving away from the cynical humor and trying to be serious so that may be why. I also may just have been to young to catch it, I left the hobby for about 8 or so years only getting back into it last year or so and I think now I look at it as a giant international company more then anything else.

And Bikers? Really? Is there a big difference between American and British bikers I'm not aware of? I just don't see 1%'s cooking meth during the night then waking up to play a game of Rogue Trader , or you talking more the laid back guys who just ride bikes? I think 80's bikers and I think MC's for some reason.

I still think the game has a lot of British elements, and most BL authors are still from England, Ireland, and the area around there. However, since the 80s they lost a lot of the punk rock and Judge Dredd influence, which I think detracts from the universe quite a bit. Once Necromunda moved out of the spotlight that was pretty much done for altogether.

The game is still markedly British, but has been diluted a lot since the mid 90's, leading to a much more global image now. At least pretty much everyone in the games still sounds British.

I think there's still an awful lot of British elements in the game - it's still quite knowingly ironic and comedically fatalistic, even though a lot of the more overtly humourous bits have been removed.

There are even several references to American characters such as Rambo, Cruella DeVille, Ghost Rider, etc.

The fluff references non-British real-world characters. Macharius is Alexander.
The fluff references religion. Eldar Craftworlds are Pagan. Emperor vs. Horus is Biblical. Khaine killing his brother is Biblical.

That's aside the point that most races and Space Marine Chapters and IG Regiments are influenced by different ancient and modern cultures.

Space Wolves are Nordic.
Eldar Craftworlds are named after Pagan holidays and are basically Pagan/NativeAmerican themselves.
Tau are Japanese.
Tallarns are Arabic (arguably British North African). Kreig is WWI German.

Overall, the fluff influence borrows from Britain and other cultures enough from the early days that fluff alone isn't justification for saying it is or isn't British anymore.

Absolutionis wrote:
Overall, the fluff influence borrows from Britain and other cultures enough from the early days that fluff alone isn't justification for saying it is or isn't British anymore.

I think the OP was more about the tone of the world, and it's writing, which we could say had a particularly 'British' outlook on things.

For example, it's treatment of religion compared with, say, what it would have been like if GW had been an American company, or the complete lack of a believable 'role model' character - that every single character is flawed, but this is seen as ironic and unchangeable rather than as a serious of angst-ridden antiheroes.

Absolutionis wrote:Either way, we can all agree it's certainly not an Australian brand.

I don't know... Look at 40K: Everyone's all spread out and isolated, the Imperium is racist and xenophobic, the people running the show have no real clue what's going on out there in the real Universe, and they're all slowly being over-run by aliens.

They might a well have called it 'Australia 40000'...

GW became more American back in 4th/5th edition warhammer, and 2nd edition 40k.

Think all the red-period, primary colour models, etc.. the darkness was totally removed from the game.

Warhammer background and artwork also changed massively, and I believe this was due to America.

At the time, "high fantasy" was popular in America, the bog-standard muscled hero takes on evil monsters for the good of being good and good always wins in the end, with the art style being clean and polished armour, bright cloaks and gleaming swords, and damsels in distress with big 80's hair.

Warhammer in the 80's was the exact opposite, being utterly dark and utterly British, with Blanche-style artwork being prevalent.

Post-2000, both fantasy and 40k have swung back to being much darker, gritty universes that are more similar to the original 80's background and artwork. I think Mordheim was the turning point, it was the exact polar opposite of 5th edition fantasy in every possible way, and brought things back on track.

The change is much more noticeable in warhammer fantasy which changed radically from utterly dark to candy pop shiny goody-2-shoes American high fantasy... and back towards the darker stuff post-2000. Current state of it is not quite as dark as the late 80's, but much better developed overall.

Having an American company wriitng background is not always a bad thing, if they have a strong understanding of the background and desire to do an excellent job. Personally, I think FFG does a better job with the 40k background than GW's "uhh, just let Mat Ward write some rubbish, that'll do" approach. Black Library, on the whole, also does a much better job of rendering the universe.

ArbitorIan wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:
Overall, the fluff influence borrows from Britain and other cultures enough from the early days that fluff alone isn't justification for saying it is or isn't British anymore.

I think the OP was more about the tone of the world, and it's writing, which we could say had a particularly 'British' outlook on things.

For example, it's treatment of religion compared with, say, what it would have been like if GW had been an American company, or the complete lack of a believable 'role model' character - that every single character is flawed, but this is seen as ironic and unchangeable rather than as a serious of angst-ridden antiheroes.

Yep, you got it; I'm asking about tone. (Very) broadly speaking, I find British television more character-driven, and American TV more plot-driven. (yep, there are lots of exceptions on both sides, but shows like the Sopranos were considered ground-breaking because they bucked the plot-driven trend and focused on character development). I see some similarities in GW's original emphasis on narrative or campaign games and their encouragement for trying uneven battles, rather than simple chess matches between roughly equivalent armies.

I didn't mention religion, but you make a great point bringing it up, ArbitorIan. Atheism and agnosticism caught on much earlier in Great Britain, in direct contrast to the US. It has been much easier to be openly skeptical or cynical about religion in England. It wasn't just a pure sci-fi idea to use a moldering corpse to represent God, it also mirrored a lot of people's thoughts on the receding power of the Church.

Uhh Cruella de Vil comes from an English Novel by Dodie Smith thats why its set in London and Suffolk......40k is actually gaining a lot of the quirky craziness back mainly thats more due to the grim darkness that is Dark Heresy?

insaniak wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:Either way, we can all agree it's certainly not an Australian brand.

I don't know... Look at 40K: Everyone's all spread out and isolated, the Imperium is racist and xenophobic, the people running the show have no real clue what's going on out there in the real Universe, and they're all slowly being over-run by aliens.

They might a well have called it 'Australia 40000'...

I see what you did there....

Very clever.

I'd say they started to become a truely international and less distinctly british company when they stopped using those superfluous vowels. Forgeworld still has "armour" while GW has pretty much moved on to "armor".

If I look at the German names in fluff, I think it is still British. But the He-Man influence on fluff is undeniably growing

Kroothawk wrote:If I look at the German names in fluff, I think it is still British. But the He-Man influence on fluff is undeniably growing

sing to the tune of He-Man intro song.


"Matt Ward and the Masters of the GW universe"

"Hi, i'm Matt Ward prince of GW game development and defender of ultramarines everywhere, this is Jervis J my fearful for his job friend. Magic powers where bestoied on me the day I held aloft my magic codex and said "By the POWER OF NOTTINGHAM!!!!!!1!!11!!1!2"

"I HAVE THE POWER!!!!!"


Personally GW lost that dark feeling around the mid-90's for me. I know it's gone and never comming back the 40k I remember, so I re-read the old stuff. I can't get past page 4 or 5 in the newer codex's, but i've read my 40k compendium so much that every page is dog-eared and warnout. I guess I am lucky that the binding hasn't gone on it yet, 20+ years latter. RT era GW books where notorious for cheep bindings.

Can we please not turn this (hasn't yet but it invariably happens when people mention Ward) into another bash Ward thread. For every jaded veteran fanboy who rails on about Blood Angel/Necron brofisting and Draigo Mary Sueing around the warp, there a dozen kids out there going "ZOMG, wow! thats 1337!".

warboss wrote:Can we please not turn this (hasn't yet but it invariably happens when people mention Ward) into another bash Ward thread. For every jaded veteran fanboy who rails on about Blood Angel/Necron brofisting and Draigo Mary Sueing around the warp, there a dozen kids out there going "ZOMG, wow! thats 1337!".

SO because the weaklings outnumber us we should let them win?

Dat sounds like hummie talk.

warboss wrote:For every jaded veteran fanboy who rails on about Blood Angel/Necron brofisting and Draigo Mary Sueing around the warp, there a dozen kids out there going "ZOMG, wow! thats 1337!".

For what it's worth, some of us veterans are also going "ZOMG, wow! that's 1337!"

Slightly amateurish fluff writing aside, the current trend in codexes has mostly been far more interesting than anything that came out through 3rd or 4th edition.

Varrick wrote:

warboss wrote:Can we please not turn this (hasn't yet but it invariably happens when people mention Ward) into another bash Ward thread. For every jaded veteran fanboy who rails on about Blood Angel/Necron brofisting and Draigo Mary Sueing around the warp, there a dozen kids out there going "ZOMG, wow! thats 1337!".

SO because the weaklings outnumber us we should let them win?

Dat sounds like hummie talk.

'Ommie luvin' gitz.... God I loved the Blood Axes back in the day.


Who's bashing Mr. Ward here? We love Fearless leader, he makes the sun rise and set each day, and brings us our daily dose of Space Marine love.

warboss wrote:Can we please not turn this (hasn't yet but it invariably happens when people mention Ward) into another bash Ward thread. For every jaded veteran fanboy who rails on about Blood Angel/Necron brofisting and Draigo Mary Sueing around the warp, there a dozen kids out there going "ZOMG, wow! thats 1337!".

Don't worry, it's not the veteran players who are complaining about Ward et al, it's the noobs who started after 2nd Edition.

I like how people seem to think that the 40K fluff wasn't absolutely silly pre-Ward

How dare matt Ward come along and add OTT sci-fantasy cliches and tropes to a world of OTT sci-fantasy cliches and tropes...

warboss wrote:I'd say they started to become a truely international and less distinctly british company when they stopped using those superfluous vowels. Forgeworld still has "armour" while GW has pretty much moved on to "armor".

Where? I'm not wholly up to date with rulebooks, but the Grey Knights codex still uses 'armour', and for that matter 'grey', so unless it's changed with the Necrons' book, I would venture that you're talking out of your hat.

First of all, in order to determine if GW is "still British," you need to determine what exactly it means to be British.

Born in the UK?
Raised in the UK?
Live in the UK?
Ancestry from the UK?
Feel like you're from the UK?
Lived in the UK sometime in your life?

All of the above pertain to people, but can also be used to describe companies.
Started in the UK, grew in the UK, headquartered in the UK, roots from the UK, feels like its from the UK, has branches in the UK....

All of those also somehow fall under the adjective of "British."

By my opinion, GW started as British company. It also IPO'd in the UK. This is an indisputable fact.
GW Started it's growth mainly in the UK, but has since expanded out to many other countries. It has grown to be an international corporation.
The main headquarters of GW, and the main development all still takes place in the UK.
The roots of GW and its products originally lie in the UK. However, since it's expansion into the international market, it has very much expanded its sources and roots. I feel GW is more international here.
Does GW and its products feel like its from the UK? TBQH, if you didn't know anything about the company itself and just saw the product, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The answer here is no.

In general, I think GW is an international global corporation (just like any smart company in this day and age,) with obviously British roots. However, to say that GW now is a British and only British company is probably very wrong.

CT GAMER wrote:I like how people seem to think that the 40K fluff wasn't absolutely silly pre-Ward

How dare matt Ward come along and add OTT sci-fantasy cliches and tropes to a world of OTT sci-fantasy cliches and tropes...

Indeed. Its so much better to have inspiring stories like the Dark Angels get that start with the death of a previous commander and end with a victory eeked out at the cost of putting the new commander in a sus an coma. That'll inspire the younglings!

warboss wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:I like how people seem to think that the 40K fluff wasn't absolutely silly pre-Ward

How dare matt Ward come along and add OTT sci-fantasy cliches and tropes to a world of OTT sci-fantasy cliches and tropes...

Indeed. Its so much better to have inspiring stories like the Dark Angels get that start with the death of a previous commander and end with a victory eeked out at the cost of putting the new commander in a sus an coma. That'll inspire the younglings!

You forgot the blood and gore? where is the blood and gore of it all

Back on topic, I believe it is still a British Influenced company and its products are rightly so, due to the fact that close to 1/3 of their are in the British isles. The rest of the stores are globally.

Absolutionis wrote:There are even several references to American characters such as Rambo, Cruella DeVille, Ghost Rider, etc.

The fluff references non-British real-world characters. Macharius is Alexander.
The fluff references religion. Eldar Craftworlds are Pagan. Emperor vs. Horus is Biblical. Khaine killing his brother is Biblical.

That's aside the point that most races and Space Marine Chapters and IG Regiments are influenced by different ancient and modern cultures.

Space Wolves are Nordic.
Eldar Craftworlds are named after Pagan holidays and are basically Pagan/NativeAmerican themselves.
Tau are Japanese.
Tallarns are Arabic (arguably British North African). Kreig is WWI German.

Overall, the fluff influence borrows from Britain and other cultures enough from the early days that fluff alone isn't justification for saying it is or isn't British anymore.

Sorry dude but the tau are NOT japanese. otherwise they would kick ass in melee.

I think he meant in terms of their culture and design style, rather than every Japanese person to be amazing at hand-to-hand combat

For any of us who used to read 2000AD, Judge Dredd, and the dozens of other characters which are rather dark but with a hint of humour or satire at the centre, I would say the first few editions at least of 40k would be instantly recognisable. When you consider that loads of the original creators were fans of that comic, or even writers later on (Dan Abnett having written for the comic and in some graphic novels for 2000AD) it is even less of a surprise.

But I do think that the slightly cynical, sarcastic satire of an 80's version of the future, exhibited in the first edition of the game (and GW stuff around that time) has changed somewhat. Although I think that the concept of 40k, at the heart of it, was one of the main reasons it has endured and become successful, it has also changed as both GW and the countries in which it is popular have expanded. First, there has been a trend towards simplification. As GW's target demographic became increasingly younger, so to has the background to go along with it: From the outside, this is observable immediately; daemonettes have had a change of heart, and gained a little modesty. Bull headed daemon with 4 arms? Far too confusing, just give everything spikes, a big axe and a frown.

And this change has been reflected in the changes within the Universe and background writing, of quite important concepts that initially underpinned a quite different conception of it: Michael Moorcock's 8 pointed star, the concept of 'chaos' and 'free will', used as plotlines in several 2000AD comics (ABC warriors, Torquemada and Slaine to name but three) - rather than being a sign meaning complete freedom, and removing the shackles of 'order' (represented by the Imperium), it has since been simplified into 'evil'. For causing harm for no other sake than its own, culminating in Gav Thorpe's eye-roll inducing "let no evil deed go unrewarded" quote in the latest Chaos dex. Sadly, this has even stretched as far as the Horus Heresy series. William King, the author of the original Epic game background blurb for the Heresy, once commented that it was based on Milton's "Paradise lost" (with Horus as Satan and obviously the Emperor as God) and echoed that tale's story of mankind choosing to live in a hell of their own choosing rather than in heaven as a slave. But rather than follow that engaging line of philosophy, and the nature of determinism, we instead have "Emperor gold armour good, Horus black armour with dark circles around eyes and white cat on lap bad". The writers have thrown in Horus being stabbed by a magic sword (essentially "a wizard did it") as a plot device, rather than engaging in any kind of dialogue as to why Horus would actually think he could make a better job of it.

I think that's but one example of similar trends throughout the other changes in the game background - Orks for instance (there have been a couple of threads on this recently) have gone from having a background explained over 2 books during Rogue Trader - a massive amount of detail regarding their entire culture, habits and traditions, to being spawned from mushrooms, and living only for war (once again, a concept spawned by Gav Thorpe). Whether this is a good thing or not I think is up to the reader to decide, but what is undeniable as that there are a great less many shades of grey in between the various factions within the game universe - the Heroic but identi-kit (and therefore largely characterless) Space Marines smiting evil, the dark and dastardly chaos marines and daemons fighting them, the barbaric ork-beast charging towards them. Each faction occupies its own character archetype, it's own shade of black or white, and there is far less cross-over between them. It's the reason that people often comment that Ork Stormboyz (or Bloodaxes) seem a little out of place within the current Ork background. Of why Eldar have been pushed into opposite corners (good and bad) while previously they occupied the centre, Marines changed from sadistic murderers doing the Imperium's dirty work into noble Knights giving their lives for a righteous cause, of Zoat ambassadors trying to coerce potential enemies of the Tyranids into laying down their arms ("WTF?!?!" would be the comment from anyone who has only read the current Tyranid background). There are many, many examples of how the rich tapestry of interconnecting factions (and how and why they would be not only fighting, but occupying the same universe) have been reduced to something resembling the background from a computer game - a simple justification for why the two sides have to kill each other.

So I think in this regard it has become markedly less 'British', if one is to regard the slide away from a deep and more complex universe (which wrestles with some rather uncomfortable issues, but did so in an often humorous or satirical way, as was the case with 2000AD) and towards one that is more obvious and less subtle - a 'Hollywoodisation' if you will, one where it is immediately obvious who the bad and good guys are, and for which there is no confusion for the 12 year old pulling the box down off the shelf. I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing, and obviously a great many people still enjoy the background for the game, and laud it as a diamond in the crown of the gaming system, but in my opinion it has lost a lot of it's character, the small nuances that helped it stand out from the crowd in the past.

pacific, i agreed with everything you said, until "one where it is immediately obvious who the bad and good guys are, and for which there is no confusion for the 12 year old pulling the box down off the shelf" while at first glance it appears the imperium is the good guys, its not the case, there is no "good guy in 40k, there are markedly "evil" races (tyranids, orks, chaos) the game isnt simply a good vs evil, its more of a clusterfeth of everyone punching everyone, then getting pissed cuz someone else punched them while they werent looking. i think as a whole you may have oversimplified the fluff of the game, although i see your argument that it may be too simple. on that note, i agree, while the fluff is far deeper than most other games out there, it has still been receding.
back on topic, i beleive the game is still very much british, they still use a large amount of "british humour" and irony, the fluff still maintains a sentiment of complexity, so that nothing is exactly (and in some cases even remotely) as it seems.

Mastiff wrote:I didn't mention religion, but you make a great point bringing it up, ArbitorIan. Atheism and agnosticism caught on much earlier in Great Britain, in direct contrast to the US. It has been much easier to be openly skeptical or cynical about religion in England. It wasn't just a pure sci-fi idea to use a moldering corpse to represent God, it also mirrored a lot of people's thoughts on the receding power of the Church.

I agree with all of this.

Now, I think that it's certainly possible to write such an anti-religious background in US culture, it's just that I'd expect it to be more extreme in one direction or the other - that the antireligious idea would end up in a hellish, legions-of-hell emo/very serious tone. It's the combination of the antireligious idea, placed within a backstory where 'divine power' is undeniably REAL, and where it's still a bad thing, and peopling it with characters that, faithful or not, can't ever do anything about it, that gives it that fatalistic, absurdist, British-comedy quality.