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I am having trouble killing Th/SS terminators and paladins.Ive tried shootas in a wagon which are mildly effective against Terminators but paladins are almost immune thanks to FNP.I have tried tossing Ghaz into a paladin squad but ward staves and falchions negate most of the incoming damage.I charged a squad of paladin with 20 boys and they all died before i was able to swing .I am at a loss on how to effectively kill these guys .

after a bit of thought... killa kans. Maybe kans + boyz if he has a lot of thunderhammers (charge with boyz first, ensure boyz are in base to base with hammers, charge rest of squad with kans afterwards, careful not to get into base to base with hammers.

Sure, you'll lose a good few boyz, but I gotta think the kans instant-killing will do plenty of damage.... he can only take 1 ward stave, and if he's using falchions as you say, 5+ invulnerables against instant death won't help TOO much.

Unfortunately Orks really don't have a good count against Paladins. S8+ weapons would be your best bet.......so that leaves power klaws (not the best idea), deff rollas (moving at max speed and forcing them to hit on 6s helps), rokkits, the looted wagon gun, or the big gun on the wagon (I think it's strength 8).

Other than that running away and trying to whittle them down with shooting or sending huge mobs at them probably works the best.


Kinda sucks.


Edit: Agreed with the above. Mass Killa-Kans can help, but be careful of Psycannons....a KFF is needed to make this work.

Deffrollas? They get their armor saves, but each one they fail is a dead paladin.

shokk attack gun lol.

I normally run battlewagons making kans almost impossible to take and the killkannon on a battlewagon is only S7 ap3 which is ok but that lack on s8 makes it pretty useless against paladins,,ok against MEQ and TEQ but you lose 8 trasnsport slots .

Flavius Infernus wrote:Deffrollas? They get their armor saves, but each one they fail is a dead paladin.

Yeah, but at least a failed save kills one of them. Power Klaws will usually get dumped on a 4+ Invuln (sword) or 2+ Invuln (stave).

Orks hurt going up against Palladins.

Well, I know for my Eldar and Mech Guard armies, the best solution to paladins is to just tank-shock them over and over again until they run off the table.

So if you're tooling a list, a huge number of trukks with reinforced ram?

azgrim wrote:I am having trouble killing Th/SS terminators and paladins.Ive tried shootas in a wagon which are mildly effective against Terminators but paladins are almost immune thanks to FNP.I have tried tossing Ghaz into a paladin squad but ward staves and falchions negate most of the incoming damage.I charged a squad of paladin with 20 boys and they all died before i was able to swing .I am at a loss on how to effectively kill these guys .

I do pretty well when I shoot them.

Lootas do some good. Burnas in a wagon will help to.

They (Paladins), don't have much for ranged combat. Most of the units in the whole codex have a max range of 24". Outrange them with Big Shootas and Lootas (you could even try Flashgits, even though they aren't the greatest) and you have a chance. Just gotta pile on the wounds

Once you get their squads down a couple of models, they really start to lose effectiveness. That's when the Boyz go to work.

The killkannon is terrible, even more so against paladins.
You are far better off simply getting more lootaz for those points.

To beat paladins, you have to rethink your entire strategy. Paladins aren't exactly great at shooting (not better than other terminators, anyways), so just move away from them and keep getting shot rather than assaulted. Tank shocking is also a great idea, as they are not fearless, and as Flavius said, a single missed save will make one paladin explode.

Usually when I face a Draigowing army, I disembark my boyz and nobz into terrain somewhere near the center and have the empty battlewagons go for the paladins while everything opens fire on them. You can even use suicide koptaz to assault them from behind, and force them to pile in away from you, but you should only do that if there is no more backfield shooting to take care of (ie. Psyflemen).

JohnnoM wrote:shokk attack gun lol.

Actually, the SAG is great against grey knights. You'd have to miss out on Thrakka or warboss to field it, though.

Dreds and Kans or lootas and big shootas.

Shas'o Kias wrote:Dreds and Kans or lootas and big shootas.

If the Palladins take an Apothecary then Lootas and Big Shootas really don't do much. Rokkits would be the better route to go in this case just for the chance to ID a pally and ignore FnP.

That apothecary is incredibly annoying ,i had dragio roll three ones only to make all three FNP saves.With the apoc you need to inflict 12 wounds before one will stick

Because the pallys are so expensive, applying a single unit to deal with a full pally squad is not really fair. The best bet is to tie up the majority of the gk with something like a truck squad of 12, while meganobz or kans pile into 1 or 2 pallys. This keeps your killers safe so they can apply instant death, while your sacrifice squad dies to a man. Ghaz really helps with both great attacks, a 2++ save, and fearless if you lose combat.

I need to test out KMB kanz against them sometime. They would seem to do ok in theory, but the return fire from the psycannon would be unkind to the kan wall, not to mention they Psifleman dread in the background shootin' the kanz with S8 bullets.

Nungunz wrote:

Shas'o Kias wrote:Dreds and Kans or lootas and big shootas.

If the Palladins take an Apothecary then Lootas and Big Shootas really don't do much. Rokkits would be the better route to go in this case just for the chance to ID a pally and ignore FnP.

Very true. FnP does suck. My problem with rokkits is that there isn't enough and they are only 24" range, which means you have to be closer to the GK's.....which is what you don't want.

DevianID wrote:Because the pallys are so expensive, applying a single unit to deal with a full pally squad is not really fair. The best bet is to tie up the majority of the gk with something like a truck squad of 12, while meganobz or kans pile into 1 or 2 pallys.

This is a horrible idea both the 12 boys and the meganobs will be dead before they get a chance to hit.The pallies only need to do 10 wounds on a max sized MAN squad to wipe it out completely since each wound will kill one MAN and they dont have an inv and most of the time MANZ are run in squads of 5 or less which is even worse .12 boys might have slightly better odds against a PA GK but they are better off shooting them than assaulting.

azgrim wrote:

DevianID wrote:Because the pallys are so expensive, applying a single unit to deal with a full pally squad is not really fair. The best bet is to tie up the majority of the gk with something like a truck squad of 12, while meganobz or kans pile into 1 or 2 pallys.

This is a horrible idea both the 12 boys and the meganobs will be dead before they get a chance to hit.The pallies only need to do 10 wounds on a max sized MAN squad to wipe it out completely since each wound will kill one MAN and they dont have an inv and most of the time MANZ are run in squads of 5 or less which is even worse .12 boys might have slightly better odds against a PA GK but they are better off shooting them than assaulting.

You don't understand.

The 12 boyz charge first, get into base to base with all the Paladins.

Then, the MANZ charge in, but your careful to only put them in base to base with 1-2 paladins, preferrably ones with power swords or ward staves. The paladins cannot consolidate into them because they are already in base to base with the boyz. The paladins have to waste attacks on the boyz. You lose 1-2 MANZ to their force weapons on the few GK that can actually hit you. Then you rock out with 30 power fist attacks, and decimate the paladins.

I totally tailor a list to this: 2 Bike Bosses, 20 Nob Bikers, 15 TL Rokkit Deffkoptas, and 45 Lootas. I stay away from the Paladins and take out everything else, then shield my Deffkoptas (4+ cover save) with the Nob Bikers. I do not charge and shoot the crap out of the Terminators. I meta game like a jerk by using my Bikers 24" movement premeasure to ensure my Bikes stay 15" away so the GKs can't assault me and my Dakkagunz can shoot them. You can sacrifice some Trukk Boyz (cheap, no Nob) to assault from the far side so they have to consolidate the other way and tie them up. None of this really works well, but it is the best I have done.

I'm curious as to how a unit of Paladins killed a mob of 20 Boyz. How big was the unit?

10 Pally + Draigo with 2 hammerhands throw out ~25 attacks that hit on 3's and wound on 2's. You expect to kill about 14 or more 66% of the time, so 20 wounds is within 1 standard deviation is my estimate. You do even better on the charge or with counterattack via Draigo's stratedgy.

DevianID wrote:10 Pally + Draigo with 2 hammerhands throw out ~25 attacks that hit on 3's and wound on 2's. You expect to kill about 14 or more 66% of the time, so 20 wounds is within 1 standard deviation is my estimate. You do even better on the charge or with counterattack via Draigo's stratedgy.

Yes, Paladins eat Boyz for breakfast. They don't need 10 models to kill Boyz; 5 Pallies with a Brotherhood Banner and Draigo get a total of 20 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+. They'll kill 11 Boyz in a single round, whereas the Boyz will be lucky to kill a single Paladin; 8 Boyz have 27 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounds, perhaps 1 unsaved if the Paladins roll very badly, and the Nob has 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, likely one saved by Invul and one taken on Draigo. Boyz lose combat by 9 or 10, all die to Fearless wounds.

Nobz mobs actually do pretty well. 5 Paladins with a BB and Apothecary runs to between 400-450 points, so if you want to match points you can hit them with 10 diversified Nobz easily. Paladins have to use their Force Weapons if they want to ID Nobz, so they can't use Hammerhand; 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 2.5 after 5++ saves, so they'll kill 2-3 Nobz. Then your Nobz get their attacks; sadly, only the PKs are really of much use. Assuming you started with a 3/3/3 choppa/BC/PK mix and killed off your 3 choppas, then you get 12 BC attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, plus 4 Painboy attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound; Total of 6 wounds spread across the squad, against 2+ armor and FNP. Not good odds. Your PKs get 12 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, but these cause ID and are going against Invul saves; the Paladin with a Warding Stave has a 2+, the ones with NFS and the Apothecary have 4+, and the one with the BB has a 5+. All of them take one wound, and one takes two; you'll kill 2-3, probably including the BB carrier.

Which means that the 3 survivors only get 6 attacks next round, since they lose the extra attack from the BB. They'll only kill 1 more Nob, the PKs kill them off. Possibly the Warding Stave Paladin will survive another round, but with no FNP he'll be killed with weight of attacks in the third round without doing any further damage.

Result; 4 dead Nobz, 5 dead Paladins.

Now, if you're talking about Draigo and a 10-man paladin deathstar, then what you have is a 1000+ point unit that you can and should ignore. In a 2000 point game, that's half his army; blow up their transport if they have one, and them let 'em shoot at you with psycannons all game. Yes, they'll do damage; no, they won't do 1000 points-worth of damage, so go around and crush the OTHER half of the army while Draigo and his friends chase you around impotently. If you have to, feed them a Boyz mob or a grot mob to keep them occupied for a turn. But if you want to fight them, you'll have to throw something like two 10-man diversified Nobz squads and Ghazghkull into them, at which point you've spent 1000 points to go head-to-head with 1000 points. You'll win, probably; but it's not the smartest way to deal with the issue.

[Edited, not relevant any longer]

Yep, caught that just a minute after I posted. Corrected my math above; it doesn't make much difference, a single extra kill.

Avoid them and shoot them if necessary. If you have to deal with them for some reason, consider burna boyz in a BW. Bunch thmu nicely, toss in a defrolla and tank shock them nicely bunched up. Then, do the flame-template thingy. Considering the point scost of pallies though, I tend to avoid them and eat the rest of their army with orks.

I use the SAG against terminator and their equals. It is rarely a hard hitter but whatever wound it causes is AP1 on a pie plate, so I'll take it.

For slightly more 'standard' lists, saturation of fire is going to be your friend here. Make them take those armor saves and eventually something will give. Units of 15 lootas will put the bury them in bullets, and shoota boyz mobs of 30 can also put out withering fire, too. If you have burnas in a trukk or battlewagon, slide up next to them and cover as much of them as you can with a template, they will each be taking 12-15 hits, a hard thing to shake off by anybody.

-cgmckenzie

As a draigowing player, I find particularly in capture and control people ignoring my deathstar make life easier, I just place my objectives as close as I can to eachother in the enemies half of the board then spread out to cap em all with that 1 squad. Ignoring them only let's them cause more damage in the right hands.

Most annoying thing I face is/are power weapons or str8+ attacks, particularly from dccw's. More than 1 wound caused and my warding stave is much less of a lifesaver.

Dunno a great deal about the ork codex, but if you have any spammable power weapons on disposable squads, try running those into the paladins for some laughs and wounds.

I think Nobs is a bad Idea. GK's eat Nobs. I've been playing Pallie GK's lately and ignoring the game objectives and just throwing different units at them to see whats effective. The best way I've found is start deffrolling them first (even if you kill one its worth it plus one of pallies weaknesses is if the dont have a character they are Ld.9 and not fearless, they just might run) while driving your Nobs at the rest of his army because they should beable to handle whats left. call Whaaagh with Ghaz and assault the Pallies after shooting with all your boyz and lootas (even if you have to get boyz out of wagons to shoot and remember your Nobs can handle the rest). On your next assault (when Ghaz's 2++ stopps) charge with 2 squads of boyz/hidden PK (make them choose where to put wounds plus they really do have a problem with hoards once you widdle them down a little) and they should be able to finnish them off. You have to rely on attrition and about 600 points but a 10 man Pallie squad with apothicary runs 700+ so it works out. Even if you throw 600 points at them 1200+ points is alot of Ork army left.

Check the mathhammer above for Nobz; unless I've missed something important, no, Paladins do NOT necessarily eat Nobz. Nobz are capable of beating Paladins, point-for-point; the difficulty is that Paladins are a super-deathstar unit, and if you want to beat them in assault it requires using another deathstar unit, or MULTIPLE deathstars.

10 Paladins + Draigo easily runs over a thousand points; with nothing other than an Apothecary, a Warding Stave and a Brotherhood Banner that unit costs 945 points. Saturation of fire is NOT viable; all those Paladins have 2 wounds, a 2+ save and FNP, meaning that Shoota Boyz (who hit on a 5+ and wound on a 4+) have to fire 144 shots in order to kill a SINGLE Paladin; or, in other words, 30 Shootas have to fire at them for three turns before one drops dead. Lootas will have to put out an average of 90 shots to drop one Paladin; and that's assuming the GK player doesn't take advantage of any WAC tricks at all. If they do, you could easily throw 400+ shots at that squad before you saw a single casualty. If you're concentrating your fire to that extent, you're not shooting at anything else with ANY of your Lootas or your Shoota Boyz, and you will lose because the other half of the GK army is not being attacked. Paladins are DESIGNED to be bullet-sponges, don't fall for it.

Rokkit Launchas, Kannons, Kustom Mega-Blastas and the SAG are the only real options Orks have for fighting Paladins at range. You cannot kill them with small arms, they're the ultimate tanks. The SAG should work like a charm for softening them up; average strength of 7, large blast to put down several wounds, and it ignores their armor. Rokkits and kannons need an average of 7 hits to get a wound through armor, so you once again have to concentrate basically all your AT fire on the Paladin deathstar, but once they do they're ID a Paladin per unsaved wound, so at least it's better than small arms. Kustom Mega-Blastas on Killa Kans are probably the best option; BS3, ID, and ignores armor. If you're lucky, a squad of Kans will be able to kill one Paladin a turn, but unfortunately that squad of Paladins is likely carrying 4 psy-bolt psycannons, so those AV11 Kans will vaporize as soon as the Paladins look at them funny.

In brief, Orks don't have the tools to deal with Paladins at range. You need anti-tank guns, and that's exactly what Orks DON'T have. Boyz + Nobz multi-assaulting on Ghazghkull's Waagh! seems like the only pseudo-reliable way to deal with them, and even then you might still lose.

The good thing? 10 Pallies + Draigo might be hell on wheels against Orks, but against pretty much any other army they're just really expensive lascannon bait. That being so, I don't think you're likely to see much of them in tournaments.

EDIT: Wait, Burna Boyz. In assault, that is. 15 Burna Boyz in a BW; Deffrolla, dismount, and assault. The Deffrolla might kill one, though it's not that likely; the Burnas will take 30 attacks, 20 hits, suffer 13 wounds. . . never mind, the squad evaporates on contact. You'd have to use two squads, in which case your surviving 12 Burnas get 36 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds, then 4-5 of those are saved by Invul saves and, thanks to WAC, you probably haven't killed a single Paladin.

Can't you just do the open-topped vehicle template shenanigans for Burnas (Like normal)? Because if you somehow cover the entire unit with the template, that's 165 hits, 82.5 wounds.