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Isseyfaran wrote:

Dodgywop wrote:I agree, Ghazzy and Kans are the top choice but even then, those can only do so much. Supplementing them with some of the other suggested methods, makes them even more effective. It's called force multiplication.

I didnt know this is called "FORCE MULTIPLICATION".

That's why I put it, since you appeared to have no idea what you were talking about.

Dodgywop wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:

Dodgywop wrote:I agree, Ghazzy and Kans are the top choice but even then, those can only do so much. Supplementing them with some of the other suggested methods, makes them even more effective. It's called force multiplication.

I didnt know this is called "FORCE MULTIPLICATION".

That's why I put it, since you appeared to have no idea what you were talking about.

LOL dude, I suggest you ask folks here what is the meaning of "FORCE Multiplication". Or Wikipedia is your best friend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_multiplication

Supplementing with shootas, lootas, burnas, tank shocks, etc DOES NOT create a force multiplier.

I was waiting for you to post something to embarass yourself, and indeed you did . I consider myself to be very good with the game, tactics, strategies, and some technical stuffs and theories. So unless you are very sure of yourself or about the topic, please don't say to me things like "you have no idea what you are talking about" .

Isseyfaran wrote: WS4 or WS2, you are still hitting on 4+, although with WS2, you are hit on 3+ by Pallies.

Actually, WS2 is hitting the WS5 paladins on 5's.

Other than that, I agree with most of what you said. Draigowing is a bad matchup for orks.

Either go Ghazzy on them, assault them with 9 tin cans or deff-rolla them with 5 battle wagons and then disembark all those boys and assault them.

You either take the gamble and go for broke in 1 huge scrimmage, or lose by playing conservatively.

Isseyfaran wrote:

Dodgywop wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:

Dodgywop wrote:I agree, Ghazzy and Kans are the top choice but even then, those can only do so much. Supplementing them with some of the other suggested methods, makes them even more effective. It's called force multiplication.

I didnt know this is called "FORCE MULTIPLICATION".

That's why I put it, since you appeared to have no idea what you were talking about.

LOL dude, I suggest you ask folks here what is the meaning of "FORCE Multiplication". Or Wikipedia is your best friend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_multiplication

Supplementing with shootas, lootas, burnas, tank shocks, etc DOES NOT create a force multiplier.

I was waiting for you to post something to embarass yourself, and indeed you did . I consider myself to be very good with the game, tactics, strategies, and some technical stuffs and theories. So unless you are very sure of yourself or about the topic, please don't say to me things like "you have no idea what you are talking about" .

Actually it does....not sure what your definition is, but your arrogance seems to prevent you from thinking clearly.

Lets break it down so you can understand.

Force Multiplier - "an attribute or a combination of attributes which make a given force more effective"

So in this context, "Given Force" would be Ghazghkull/Kans.

The "attribute or combination of attributes to make a given force (I.E. Mr. Thraka), more EFFECTIVE" would be the suggestions made by other members in the thread (I.E. ANYTHING that helps Ghazzy's assault results end up better than it would be without.) Even if you can throw 1 more wound int the mix before the main assault, you're still adding a force multiplier.

Furthermore, I was essentially agreeing with you. The only thing I disagreed on was that you stated that the prior advice in the thread was "terrible". It wasn't.

You may be the end all be all to strategy in TT gaming, but your attitude isn't going to make any friends, nor will people be as inclined to listen to you.

Isseyfaran wrote:

Dodgywop wrote:I agree, Ghazzy and Kans are the top choice but even then, those can only do so much. Supplementing them with some of the other suggested methods, makes them even more effective. It's called force multiplication.

I didnt know this is called "FORCE MULTIPLICATION". Is this something new you learnt somewhere? Anyone wants to second this?

You shouldn't be talking so high and mighty, if you don't even know what a force multiplier is. A force multiplier doesn't just add to your army, but increases the value of other models. Ghazghkull's PotW!, the KFF or the cover provided by kanz stomping in fron t of boyz would all be such force multipliers.

Dodgywop wrote:Have some squads of Lootas shoot while Ghazzy rides up in a Deffrolla equipped battlewagon. Turn 2, call the WAAAGH!, tank shock, hop out with some diversified Nobz and assault. Sounds effective to me.

Your lootas are better off shooting something else, SERIOUSLY. Unless you are telling me there is NOTHING else on the board besides the Paladins.

Shoot what else? Ven dreads with fortitude? As soon as you have taken down any razorbacks the GK player was able to afford on top of his death-star, there aren't exactly many targets worth shooting left.
Same for the deff rolla - it's not like it is going to reach backfield units if that means showing it's back to the paladins.

BeRzErKeR wrote:I'd suggest using a Deff Dred instead. It's got WS4, and you can give it 6 attacks on the charge; on the first round it's just as good as 3 Kans, and after that it's better. Furthermore, Paladins can't even glance AV12, so barring some very, VERY lucky rolling from Draigo you're guaranteed not to lose combat, and could very well break them after 2-3 rounds. Then you can chase them away from the objective they were camping, or hopefully tank-shock them a couple times and send them off the table.

Don't know how you got 6 attacks, but even if you are talking about 4 DCCW on a Dread, that's 105 points. You can get 2 Killa Kans with Rokkits for that, who have 6 attacks on the charge as well (assuming you are right). WS4 or WS2, you are still hitting on 4+, although with WS2, you are hit on 3+ by Pallies. Also, in a competitive TAC kan wall list, no one uses DeffDread.
And why can't Pallies glance AV12?

As already pointed out, KANz hit on 5+, meaning even a full squad on the charge has a decent chance of failing to kill any paladins at all. As for the dread, paladins can try glancing with krak grenades on a double six, or use their usually one hammer, which will result in usually one glancing or penetrating hit. However, a deff dread against GK will go the way of all deff dreds, being left immobilized or destroyed somewhere midfield by turn 2. That's why you should use both, target saturation is the key.
Nothing prevents you from replacing a mob of boyz with two deff dreads in a kan wall, if you can expect paladins in your meta. Being inflexible in your list building is hardly an argument for or against a unit.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Ideally, do all of the above. Tank Shock with a Deffrolla wagon, drop out Ghazzy, and assault him in alongside a Deff Dred and maybe a squad of Nobz. THAT will do the trick.

Assaulting Nobs alongside Ghazzy is a terribly stupid idea because the Paladins can then mostly choose to hit the Nobs rather than Ghaz. You then lose the advantage of your 2++ . So instead of winning combat, you are more likely to draw or lose combat, and then forced to take fearless saves.

The only time you should send reinforcement into the combat is after 2 full rounds of combat, when the Pally squad have been thinned down, and after Ghazzy has lost his 2++.

Dodgywop wrote:Actually it does....not sure what your definition is, but your arrogance seems to prevent you from thinking clearly.

LOL, if I am arrogant, then at least I have what it takes to be arrogant (well, you are welcomed to challenge me to a couple of games in vassal anytime). More importantly, at least I didn't try to act like I know certain things when clearly I don't.

Dodgywop wrote:Lets break it down so you can understand.
Force Multiplier - "an attribute or a combination of attributes which make a given force more effective"

Your definition isn't complete to begin with.

"Force multiplication, in military usage, refers to an attribute or a combination of attributes which make a given force more effective than that same force would be without it. The expected size increase required to have the same effectiveness without that advantage is the multiplication factor. "

The existence of a MULTIPLCATION EFFECT is KEY.

Force multiplier does not exist in 1+1 = 2. Force multiplier exists in 1+1 = 4, for example.

Dodgywop wrote:So in this context, "Given Force" would be Ghazghkull/Kans.
The "attribute or combination of attributes to make a given force (I.E. Mr. Thraka), more EFFECTIVE" would be the suggestions made by other members in the thread (I.E. ANYTHING that helps Ghazzy's assault results end up better than it would be without.) Even if you can throw 1 more wound int the mix before the main assault, you're still adding a force multiplier.

Shooting shootas, burnas, lootas (you said ALL of the suggested methods) into Paladins DOES NOT create a MULTIPLICATION effect, merely "ADDITION", LOL. And in fact, not even addition. Stripping 3 wounds off a squad of double wound Paladins does not help Ghazzy at all when his S10 claw is going to instant kill the Paladins anyway. The opponent is only going to allocate the wounds to the single wound Paladins.

Dodgywop wrote:Furthermore, I was essentially agreeing with you. The only thing I disagreed on was that you stated that the prior advice in the thread was "terrible". It wasn't.

S4 shootas, s5 big shootas, s7 deffguns, s8AP3 guns are all terribly ineffective. Of course, that's not saying your lootas are better off doing NOTHING if there was nothing else besides the Paladins on the table. But in almost every other situation, your lootas, shoota, burnas are better off shooting at something else.

Deffdreads (instead of KillaKans), mass trucks, makes for terrible TAC ork lists. So yeah, my stand stays. Apart from Ghazzy (for wagon build), and kans (for kanwall build), the rest were terrible advice. I wouldn't pretend otherwise just to make people happy.

Dodgywop wrote:You may be the end all be all to strategy in TT gaming, but your attitude isn't going to make any friends, nor will people be as inclined to listen to you.

So far my attitude of giving the best and true advice to anyone who seeks them has been most welcomed. Not sure about your false/terrible advice though.

OH, and I don't need to act nice to people like you so that you are MORE INCLINED to listen to my advice. True advice is true advice, facts are fact. If you think your ego is more important and choose to dismiss the facts as facts, it's your own loss anyway.

Isseyfaran wrote:

Dodgywop wrote:Actually it does....not sure what your definition is, but your arrogance seems to prevent you from thinking clearly.

LOL, if I am arrogant, then at least I have what it takes to be arrogant (well, you are welcomed to challenge me to a couple of games in vassal anytime). More importantly, at least I didn't try to act like I know certain things when clearly I don't.

Dodgywop wrote:Lets break it down so you can understand.
Force Multiplier - "an attribute or a combination of attributes which make a given force more effective"

Your definition isn't complete to begin with.

"Force multiplication, in military usage, refers to an attribute or a combination of attributes which make a given force more effective than that same force would be without it. The expected size increase required to have the same effectiveness without that advantage is the multiplication factor. "

The existence of a MULTIPLCATION EFFECT is KEY.

Force multiplier does not exist in 1+1 = 2. Force multiplier exists in 1+1 = 4, for example.

Dodgywop wrote:So in this context, "Given Force" would be Ghazghkull/Kans.
The "attribute or combination of attributes to make a given force (I.E. Mr. Thraka), more EFFECTIVE" would be the suggestions made by other members in the thread (I.E. ANYTHING that helps Ghazzy's assault results end up better than it would be without.) Even if you can throw 1 more wound int the mix before the main assault, you're still adding a force multiplier.

Shooting shootas, burnas, lootas (you said ALL of the suggested methods) into Paladins DOES NOT create a MULTIPLICATION effect, merely "ADDITION", LOL. And in fact, not even addition. Stripping 3 wounds off a squad of double wound Paladins does not help Ghazzy at all when his S10 claw is going to instant kill the Paladins anyway. The opponent is only going to allocate the wounds to the single wound Paladins.

Dodgywop wrote:Furthermore, I was essentially agreeing with you. The only thing I disagreed on was that you stated that the prior advice in the thread was "terrible". It wasn't.

S4 shootas, s5 big shootas, s7 deffguns, s8AP3 guns are all terribly ineffective. Deffdreads (instead of KillaKans), mass trucks, makes for terrible TAC ork lists. So yeah, my stand stays. Apart from Ghazzy (for wagon build), and kans (for kanwall build), the rest were terrible advice. I wouldn't pretend otherwise just to make people happy.

Dodgywop wrote:You may be the end all be all to strategy in TT gaming, but your attitude isn't going to make any friends, nor will people be as inclined to listen to you.

So far my attitude of giving the best and true advice to anyone who seeks them has been most welcomed. Not sure about your false/terrible advice though.

Again, you fail to understand.

Lets use your Wikipedia link as an example.

"Some common force multipliers are:

Military tactics, such as force concentration"

Is one example. There are others as well. I admit that my "1 wound" example wasn't the best, but the point was that Ghaz by himself isn't as good as Ghaz with Lootas, Burnas, Deffrolas (or all 3) CONCENTRATING on a single squad of paladins. To say that those won't contribute to multiplying the effectiveness of Ghaz is simply wrong.

As for the arrogance, "if I am arrogant, then at least I have what it takes to be arrogant" just proves you're nothing more than presumptuous and quick to interject your "knowledge" based on ill-informed assumptions.

I'll try to quit de-railing this thread. I'm sure the OP has gone on to bigger and more Orky things. Hopefully he has some better luck in dealing with those nasty Paladins.

Jidmah wrote:You shouldn't be talking so high and mighty, if you don't even know what a force multiplier is. A force multiplier doesn't just add to your army, but increases the value of other models. Ghazghkull's PotW!, the KFF or the cover provided by kanz stomping in fron t of boyz would all be such force multipliers.

Yes, this is force multiplier. But excuse me, did I in any of my post, suggest that this is not the case? I mean SERIOUSLY, did you read? I said shooting s4 s and then s7 s, and then assaulting Ghazzy into the Paladins does not generate a force multiplier.

To give more examples :-
Priest giving FNP to units around generates force multiplier.
Vulkan in a list full of meltas, multimelta, flamers, heavy flamers, etc generates force multiplier.
Adding 10 more boys into a combat supporting 20 other boys DOES NOT generate force MULTIPLIER.

Jidmah wrote:Shoot what else? Ven dreads with fortitude? As soon as you have taken down any razorbacks the GK player was able to afford on top of his death-star, there aren't exactly many targets worth shooting left.

YES, razorbacks, rhinos, Dreads, Ven Dreads (in order of priority), are ALL better targets for the lootas THAN PALADINS.

Jidmah wrote:That's why you should use both, target saturation is the key.
Nothing prevents you from replacing a mob of boyz with two deff dreads in a kan wall, if you can expect paladins in your meta. Being inflexible in your list building is hardly an argument for or against a unit.

Except that DeffDreads armed with 4 DCCW makes for terrible target saturation.


Well, you seem to agree with the rest of what I have posted, I assume


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dodgywop wrote:Again, you fail to understand.

Lets use your Wikipedia link as an example.

"Some common force multipliers are:

Military tactics, such as force concentration"

I don't see how this links to what we are discussing, especially when you choose to just throw in a phrase here and skip the elaboration. So I mean if you want to post something, back it up. Otherwise, leave it out

Dodgywop wrote:I admit that my "1 wound" example wasn't the best, but the point was that Ghaz by himself isn't as good as Ghaz with Lootas, Burnas, Deffrolas (or all 3) CONCENTRATING on a single squad of paladins. To say that those won't contribute to multiplying the effectiveness of Ghaz is simply wrong.

Contribute to the effectiveness of Ghaz? --- Minimal/Negligible.
MULTIPLY the effectiveness? --- ABSOLUTELY NO.

Dodgywop wrote:As for the arrogance, "if I am arrogant, then at least I have what it takes to be arrogant" just proves you're nothing more than presumptuous and quick to interject your "knowledge" based on ill-informed assumptions.

You haven't been able to prove until now, either tactically, strategically, or technically that my facts (not assumptions) are ill-informed.

Rush Ghaz, and 10 Nobs with 3 PK's and 4 BCs, 3 Waaagh Banners and other wargear for the wound shananagins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Make sure their in a BW to start with though (with an ard case, armor plates and RPJ to get their that much faster

Isseyfaran wrote:

Dodgywop wrote:As for the arrogance, "if I am arrogant, then at least I have what it takes to be arrogant" just proves you're nothing more than presumptuous and quick to interject your "knowledge" based on ill-informed assumptions.

You haven't been able to prove until now, either tactically, strategically, or technically that my facts (not assumptions) are ill-informed.

You haven't been able to prove until now, either tactically, strategically, or technically that your facts and assumptions are true and fact.

Relax guy, it's just plastic.

You obviously know much more about everything Warhammer related, and for that, you win 100 interwebs. Congratulations. Don't spend them all in one place!

But I digress (again),

Paladins are tough. The thread has posted a few possible ways to handle them. Playtest a few and see what fits best in your list/playstyle.

I'll try out Ghaz, Nobz and a Battlewagon come next gaming night to see how it fares in actual play.

Dodgywop wrote: You obviously know much more about everything Warhammer related, and for that, you win 100 interwebs. Congratulations. Don't spend them all in one place!

But I digress,

Paladins are tough. The thread has posted a few possible ways to handle them. Playtest a few and see what fits best in your list/playstyle.

I'll try out Ghaz, Nobz and a Battlewagon come next gaming night to see how it fares in actual play.

LOL, you made me sad face. After all your arrogant claims, throwing things in here and not being able to back them up, you are stooping to this now?

HAHA, what an attempt to save yourself from embarassment, SERIOUSLY.

As for whether I know anything else besides Warhammer, well feel free to look out for me in other forums. Otherwise, sad to break the truth to you, this is 40k forum and therefore I will only discuss 40k and nothing else :-)

Dodgywop wrote:Paladins are tough if you use silly tools to deal with them. The thread has posted a few possible ways to handle them but most are terribly inefficient way. Use the obviously effective way to deal with them.

Corrected that for you

Dodgywop wrote:Relax guy, it's just plastic.

FINALLY, something correct come from you. You are right, they are just plastic. But you started it, so I have no choice but to play along.

You know, you guys could just have PMed each other and left the rest of this out of it.

Isseyfaran wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Shoot what else? Ven dreads with fortitude? As soon as you have taken down any razorbacks the GK player was able to afford on top of his death-star, there aren't exactly many targets worth shooting left.

YES, razorbacks, rhinos, Dreads, Ven Dreads (in order of priority), are ALL better targets for the lootas THAN PALADINS.

Assuming 750 points sunk into paladins, and at least another strike squad or Corteaz+Henchmen required, there shouldn't bee too much of all that. In addition, lootaz can do close to nothing against ven dreads in cover. Assuming the enemy forces you to reroll all results which don't destroy the dread or it's last weapon, you will pretty much waste their firepower there. I'd rather take my chances with paladins. Unlike assault, you can shoot every unit multiple times, so if you don't kill any paladins with all your big(shootaz), by the time the lootaz get around to shooting paladins, they will start losing their second wounds. Keep in mind that due to the huge amount of wounds each unit of orks produces(about 6-7 per shoota boyz mob, burna templates), a paladin can easily be killed with the others still having all their wounds, as they have to allocated before that ridiculous 11/12 save.

Jidmah wrote:That's why you should use both, target saturation is the key.
Nothing prevents you from replacing a mob of boyz with two deff dreads in a kan wall, if you can expect paladins in your meta. Being inflexible in your list building is hardly an argument for or against a unit.

Except that DeffDreads armed with 4 DCCW makes for terrible target saturation.

It doesn't, as GK have exactly two anti-tank weapons: Psybolt Autocannons and Psycannons. Both of those are just as good at killing deff dreads, as they are at killing kanz. Adding another two units to shoot on top of three units of kanz does make for a good target saturation. Where half a unit of kanz made it into combat before, you now have half a unit of kanz and two deff dreads, or one full unit of kanz and a deff dread, or whatever.

Jidmah wrote: In addition, lootaz can do close to nothing against ven dreads in cover. Assuming the enemy forces you to reroll all results which don't destroy the dread or it's last weapon, you will pretty much waste their firepower there.

If we go by the law of averages here, yes the chances of the same amount of loota fire taking a wound off the Paladin is lower than the chance of the loota doing any significant damage to the Ven Dread. HOWEVER, stripping a wound off the Paladins is close to useless, while a lucky weapon destroyed, wrecked, or explosion result nets you a higher return. So while your average chance is better in the case of shooting against Paladins, your returns are limited and CLOSE TO useless. So unless you are planning to shoot the Paladins to death, stripping their wound one by one and not send in Ghaz AT ALL, then leaving the Paladins surviving with one wound floating does not help Ghaz's assault AT ALL.

Jidmah wrote:Unlike assault, you can shoot every unit multiple times, so if you don't kill any paladins with all your big(shootaz), by the time the lootaz get around to shooting paladins, they will start losing their second wounds. Keep in mind that due to the huge amount of wounds each unit of orks produces(about 6-7 per shoota boyz mob, burna templates), a paladin can easily be killed with the others still having all their wounds, as they have to allocated before that ridiculous 11/12 save.

Again, applying the law of average here, it takes 1/36 chance for a Paladin to fail his 2+ armor twice consecutively. FURTHERMORE, besides 15 Burnas in a wagon, few ork units can generate more than 20 wounds per round of shooting. EVen 10 is optimistic. So while you may get lucky (or the opponent gets unlucky) once in a blue moon killing a single Paladin outright with 2 unsaved wounds, most of the time your shots are pretty useless.

Jidmah wrote:It doesn't, as GK have exactly two anti-tank weapons: Psybolt Autocannons and Psycannons. Both of those are just as good at killing deff dreads, as they are at killing kanz. Adding another two units to shoot on top of three units of kanz does make for a good target saturation. Where half a unit of kanz made it into combat before, you now have half a unit of kanz and two deff dreads, or one full unit of kanz and a deff dread, or whatever.

Not contending the fact that adding DeffDreads to 9 Killa Kans IS target saturuation, but rather spending 30 points for 2 extra DCCW on a single body of AV12 that is going to do nothing for its first 3 turns of slogging makes for poor target saturation.

Isseyfaran wrote:

Jidmah wrote: In addition, lootaz can do close to nothing against ven dreads in cover. Assuming the enemy forces you to reroll all results which don't destroy the dread or it's last weapon, you will pretty much waste their firepower there.

If we go by the law of averages here, yes the chances of the same amount of loota fire taking a wound off the Paladin is lower than the chance of the loota doing any significant damage to the Ven Dread. HOWEVER, stripping a wound off the Paladins is close to useless, while a lucky weapon destroyed, wrecked, or explosion result nets you a higher return. So while your average chance is better in the case of shooting against Paladins, your returns are limited and CLOSE TO useless. So unless you are planning to shoot the Paladins to death, stripping their wound one by one and not send in Ghaz AT ALL, then leaving the Paladins surviving with one wound floating does not help Ghaz's assault AT ALL.

First of all, I am planing on shooting the paladins to death. Second five lootaz will cause 3.33 hits, .55 penetratings, 0.277 after cover, .093 results to be rerolled into 0.031 destroyed results. So, by napkin math two units of 15 lootaz shooting at ven dreads for five turns will destroy about one.
In addition, there is no guarantee that Ghaz will kill the guy with the wound. He might as well still be around to get his other wound shot off later.

Again, applying the law of average here, it takes 1/36 chance for a Paladin to fail his 2+ armor twice consecutively. FURTHERMORE, besides 15 Burnas in a wagon, few ork units can generate more than 20 wounds per round of shooting. EVen 10 is optimistic.

20 wounds? 10? What for? Were are talking about a unit of 6 here. No need to deal more than six wounds in one go, and shoota boyz do that easily. Once some of the paladins are wounded, you need even less. He has to allocate wounds to wounded models that way, and there is a chance of killing that wounded model.

So while you may get lucky (or the opponent gets unlucky) once in a blue moon killing a single Paladin outright with 2 unsaved wounds, most of the time your shots are pretty useless.

Judging from my nob bikers, this kind of thing happens much more often than once in a blue moon. And T5/4+/FNP aren't that much weaker against S4 shooting than T4/2+/FNP

Jidmah wrote:It doesn't, as GK have exactly two anti-tank weapons: Psybolt Autocannons and Psycannons. Both of those are just as good at killing deff dreads, as they are at killing kanz. Adding another two units to shoot on top of three units of kanz does make for a good target saturation. Where half a unit of kanz made it into combat before, you now have half a unit of kanz and two deff dreads, or one full unit of kanz and a deff dread, or whatever.

Not contending the fact that adding DeffDreads to 9 Killa Kans IS target saturuation, but rather spending 30 points for 2 extra DCCW on a single body of AV12 that is going to do nothing for its first 3 turns of slogging makes for poor target saturation.

Massed firepower will always kill everything. just use shoota boyz, lootas and a three kannon/ Zzapp gun batteries.

my thoughts

ABSOLUTE MUST: make sure he is allocating wounds properly, every paladin must have unique equipment in order to allocate wounds, if you do 50 wounds to the unit, they must be assigned across the squad, he doesn't roll saves and then assign them, this gives you the possability to snipe out the apothicary or banner bearer.

1. pile in on the paladins with a ton of boys, if he doesn't have purifier backup, they should at least tie the deathstar up for a bit

2. pile in after-assault with burnas if they can't flame the unit down, paladins have to eat a round of a ton of power weapon attacks, not as effective but an option

3. as above, pile in after he engages in combat wtih kans, deff dreads ect.

4. keep tank shocking them with anything until they break then escort them off the table

5. don't expect to out-elite them, they are the most "elite" unit in the game, ghaz or some other OP special character is now how you beat them, they only have 2 attacks each, there's only a few of them, pile on what they are weak against dont try to overwhelm their strengths.

Grundz wrote:1. pile in on the paladins with a ton of boys, if he doesn't have purifier backup, they should at least tie the deathstar up for a bit

Unless a ton of boyz includes two units of at least 20, that's not going to work. Even then, getting 40 boyz into combat is tricky.

2. pile in after-assault with burnas if they can't flame the unit down, paladins have to eat a round of a ton of power weapon attacks, not as effective but an option

If you definited don't need them for anything else, you can of course toss your burnaz away. They are better at finishing the squad once it has taken a bunch of wounds, though.

3. as above, pile in after he engages in combat wtih kans, deff dreads ect.

4. keep tank shocking them with anything until they break then escort them off the table

5. don't expect to out-elite them, they are the most "elite" unit in the game, ghaz or some other OP special character is now how you beat them, they only have 2 attacks each, there's only a few of them, pile on what they are weak against dont try to overwhelm their strengths.

They usually have three attacks each, backed up by hammerhand/NFW, WS5 and FNP. However, they only have storm bolters and psycannons with BF4 if you don't charge them. That way, they are no more dangerous than a purifiers, so why play their game?

Jidmah wrote:20 wounds? 10? What for? Were are talking about a unit of 6 here. No need to deal more than six wounds in one go, and shoota boyz do that easily. Once some of the paladins are wounded, you need even less. He has to allocate wounds to wounded models that way, and there is a chance of killing that wounded model.

Firstly, I was talking about a squad of 10, OBVIOUSLY. But nvm, 6 it shall be, and alright a squad of 30 shoota boys can achieve that on average. OH, and actually, it is 1/144, not 1/36. I forgot about the FNP. So seriously, LOL

Jidmah wrote:Judging from my nob bikers, this kind of thing happens much more often than once in a blue moon. And T5/4+/FNP aren't that much weaker against S4 shooting than T4/2+/FNP.

Quoting your personal experience and claiming them as the average or likely outcome doesn't make a good argument. Math tells you that the odds are 1/144.

Jidmah wrote:It's not like any of the other weapons are of much use against GK though. You might as well five it a KMB for fluke shots at the paladins. Personally I use DCCW/Skorcha for a cheaper load-out. This has nothing to do with target saturation though, it's not like the enemy is capable of handling nine kanz. If he were, kan walls wouldn't work. If anything, those dreads are more likely to reach close combat if your opponent focuses on kanz only.

Spending additional 20 points which could otherwise have been spread out and spent on other areas IS poor target saturation and point allocation. And bear in mind, it has to be a TAC list if the ork list is to be competitive at all.
I didn't diss the idea of the kans. I was merely saying DeffDreads aren't excellent choices, even worse when they are armed with 4 DCCW, which is what the math of attacks and wounds was based on.

Jidmah wrote:
First of all, I am planing on shooting the paladins to death. Second five lootaz will cause 3.33 hits, .55 penetratings, 0.277 after cover, .093 results to be rerolled into 0.031 destroyed results. So, by napkin math two units of 15 lootaz shooting at ven dreads for five turns will destroy about one.
In addition, there is no guarantee that Ghaz will kill the guy with the wound. He might as well still be around to get his other wound shot off later.

And lastly, your MOST interesting comment. Would you enlighten everyone here how you plan on JUST shooting all the paladins to death? Take note we are talking about an army list like the DraigoWing, that is mainly made up of Paladins, and not lists that consist of only 5 or 6 paladins with the bulk of its points spent somewhere else. For the latter scenario, the obvious tactic will be to focus your efforts on eliminating the other parts of the army.

So again, would you teach us how you plan on winning a DraigoWing list by smply shooting them with orks?

When I see people claiming that Deff Dreads will inevitably get destroyed by T2 or something like that, I always wonder if they've ever actually used them; not to give offense, but I run them often, and that just isn't what happens in my experience. I've run Dreadmobz with 5 of them, I've run 6 Kans and 2 Dreads, and currently I'm playing around with 2 Dreads in a Battlewagon Bash list. Since you can take one as Troops for every Big Mek you have, the first one doesn't even compete for a HS slot.

A 4-CCW Deff Dread with grot riggers and armour plates is 120 points. It is thus dead cheap, first off; if you DO lose it, it's no more important than losing a squad of Trukk Boyz.

Secondly, it just doesn't care about the half the results on the Damage Table. Shaken only stops shooting and it has no guns; Armour Plates convert Stunned to Shaken; and Weapon Destroyed just removes one of its 5 attacks, which is irritating but not really important. Furthermore, even Immobilized only has a 50% chance to keep it still for longer than one turn. What this all means is that Glancing it does basically nothing; you have to Pen it to do any damage.

Third, AV 12 with a KFF is not easy to destroy. Hydras, for instance, are largely ineffective against a Deff Dread; 4 TL S7 shots will usually give 3 hits, of which one will pen or glance. If it's a glance, it has a 1/6 chance of doing something productive (ie Immobilizing) and then a 1/2 chance of being ignored anyway; a pen has a 1/2 chance of Immobilizing or Destroying, and then a 1/2 chance of being ignored. To have good odds of taking a Deff Dread out even temporarily thus requires getting 12 glances or 4 pens, which S7 weapons are unlikely to do in the two turns they have before it charges.

If my opponent doesn't concentrate enough fire on the Dreads to get that many damage results, they aren't going to stop them and I get to charge in with DCCWs. The Deff Dreads then proceed to do much, much more damage than their points cost seems to indicate. On the other hand, if my opponent DOES commit the necessary fire, he almost certainly did so by diverting lascannon, melta or (in the case of Tau) railgun fire away from my Battlewagons; in which case the Dreads have served their purpose by allowing Ghazghkull, my Nobz and my Shoota Boyz to reach attack range unchecked. Once again; these Dreads cost 120 points each. They are entirely disposable.

Finally, in my experience most people don't have much experience dealing with Deff Dreads; they don't work anything like Imperial Dreadnoughts do. Either they ignore them under the assumption that they can kill them any time they please and shoot at the BWs instead, or they fire EVERYTHING at them first turn; so either I get the Dreads into combat, or I get the BWs into combat, and either way I'm fine with that.

Back to the topic at hand; Kanz suck in assault against Paladins. They really do. Krak grenades can kill them, even regular attacks with Hammerhand can glance them, Draigo can kill them pretty easily. Deff Dreads cannot be hurt by Hammerhand attacks by anyone except Draigo, can only be glanced by boxcars using krak grenades, and put out enough attacks and a high enough WS that they're pretty sure to be killing a Paladin every round. The only thing they don't like is Daemonhammers, which are admittedly a problem but probably won't be enough of one to save the Paladin squad assaulted by a Dread or two and Ghazzy all at the same time.

And remember; they're 120 points. Cheap as dirt. Even if the Paladins DO kill the Dread, as long as you killed 2 of them first you've made up your points, and weakened them for a follow-up attack.

Isseyfaran wrote:Spending additional 20 points which could otherwise have been spread out and spent on other areas IS poor target saturation and point allocation. And bear in mind, it has to be a TAC list if the ork list is to be competitive at all.
I didn't diss the idea of the kans. I was merely saying DeffDreads aren't excellent choices, even worse when they are armed with 4 DCCW, which is what the math of attacks and wounds was based on.

I DO run Dreads in my TAC list; 4 BWs, 2 squads of Nobz, 2 squads of Boyz, Ghazzy, a KFF Big Mek, and 2 Dreads. 2000 points total. I repeat; the resilience of Deff Dreads is seriously underestimated due to the fact that they effectively IGNORE half the Vehicle Damage table, most people do not deal with them well, and they're so cheap that I don't care if they get shot down anyway. Might not be the most competitive list in the world, but it's worked well for me so far, and I'd have no hesitation about taking it up against Draigowing.

Isseyfaran wrote:

Jidmah wrote:20 wounds? 10? What for? Were are talking about a unit of 6 here. No need to deal more than six wounds in one go, and shoota boyz do that easily. Once some of the paladins are wounded, you need even less. He has to allocate wounds to wounded models that way, and there is a chance of killing that wounded model.

Firstly, I was talking about a squad of 10, OBVIOUSLY. But nvm, 6 it shall be, and alright a squad of 30 shoota boys can achieve that on average. OH, and actually, it is 1/144, not 1/36. I forgot about the FNP. So seriously, LOL

You want exact math? Fine.

First off all twenty boyz are more than enough to produce 6 or more wounds. Even averages should tell you that. 20 boyz will have 38 shots, 12.6 hits, 6.3 wounds.

Assuming 5 wounds done on five paladins:
The chance of all paladins saving those wounds is (11/12)^5 = 64.7%
The chance of exactly one paladin not saving one wound is (1/12 * (11/12)^4)*5 = 29.4%
The chance of exactly two paladins not saving one wound is ((1/12)^2 * (11/12)^3)*10 = 5.3%
The chance of exactly three paladins not saving one wound is ((1/12)^3 * (11/12)^2)*10 = 0,4%
The chance of exactly four paladins not saving one wound is ((1/12)^4 * 11/12)*5 = 0.02%
The chance of no paladins saving is (1/12)^5 = 0.0004%

The chance of a second unit shooting and causing five wounds resulting in exactly one unsived wound is also 29.4%, etc. The chance of them killing a previous wounded paladin with a single unsaved wound is:
If one wound was previously caused .294 * 1/5 = 5,88%
If two wounds were previously caused .294 * 2/5 = 11,76%
If three wounds were previously caused .294 * 3/5 = 17,64%
If four wound were previously caused .294 * 4/5 = 23.52%

Just for comparison, your claimed 1/144 would be 0.69%.

This doesn't even factor in causing more five unsaved wounds (likely) or more than one unsaved wound (not so much). So two units of shoota boyz stand a decent chance of actually killing random models from the paladin unit - neither player can influence which one.

Jidmah wrote:Judging from my nob bikers, this kind of thing happens much more often than once in a blue moon. And T5/4+/FNP aren't that much weaker against S4 shooting than T4/2+/FNP.

Quoting your personal experience and claiming them as the average or likely outcome doesn't make a good argument. Math tells you that the odds are 1/144.

Proven wrong above. In addition, Paladins suffer a wound from a S4 hit 1/2*1/6*1/2 = 1/24. Nob bikers suffer a wound from S4 1/3 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/12. Thats ~8% vs ~4%, hardly a noticeable difference.

Jidmah wrote:It's not like any of the other weapons are of much use against GK though. You might as well five it a KMB for fluke shots at the paladins. Personally I use DCCW/Skorcha for a cheaper load-out. This has nothing to do with target saturation though, it's not like the enemy is capable of handling nine kanz. If he were, kan walls wouldn't work. If anything, those dreads are more likely to reach close combat if your opponent focuses on kanz only.

Spending additional 20 points which could otherwise have been spread out and spent on other areas IS poor target saturation and point allocation.

How does the equipment of a vehicle impact target saturation at all? Either it's shot at with the same weapons or it is not. Anything else is irrelevant. A chimera with a multi-laser provides just as much target saturation as a chimera with a flamer.

And bear in mind, it has to be a TAC list if the ork list is to be competitive at all.

If paladins kill your army, there is no point being competitive in an imaginary TAC setting. If you can expect paladins to definitely show up in your metagame, fielding deff dreads to kill them is competitive. You also don't have to change your kan wall all that much to include them. They can be taken as troops, so they don't even compete for any slots, you just have to fiend the points.

I didn't diss the idea of the kans. I was merely saying DeffDreads aren't excellent choices, even worse when they are armed with 4 DCCW, which is what the math of attacks and wounds was based on.

Agree.

And lastly, your MOST interesting comment. Would you enlighten everyone here how you plan on JUST shooting all the paladins to death? Take note we are talking about an army list like the DraigoWing, that is mainly made up of Paladins, and not lists that consist of only 5 or 6 paladins with the bulk of its points spent somewhere else. For the latter scenario, the obvious tactic will be to focus your efforts on eliminating the other parts of the army.

So again, would you teach us how you plan on winning a DraigoWing list by smply shooting them with orks?

I already told you how I do beat them in practice. Unload everyone but thrakka somewhere in terrain and tank shock paladins with deff rollas. Maybe some are killed, maybe they run away. Usually not the case. Shoot them with everything. Drop Thrakka on them, so the BW can't be shot by the paladins now stuck in combat. Then have the battlewagons take care of any vehicles in the back field, returning to tank shock paladins next turn. They most likely start shooting and/or assaulting battlewagons now, because of the danger of running away. If they don't, continue steamrolling them. Just keep shooting them and moving back if they try to come closer, or simply push them away from your orks by tank-shocking on top of them. Once they have lost a few models and their banner or FNP or Draigo charge nobz into them to finish them off. If everything goes well, you have killed the paladins and have two tirds of your army left. If it gets hairy, you have half left. Koptaz and buggies take care of anything else lurking around - at the very least lock a psyfleman in combat for a few turns.

And even then, there are Draigowing armies made of 2x5 or, at very high point levels, even 3x5 paladins. You can't assault two of those units to death. With my attempt, they are even easier to kill.


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Berzerker, meltas do kill deff dreads. That's the problem, really. If it gets close enough to charge next turn(12"), some random melta-gun wielding guys will run up to it and blow it up. There are simply too many melta weapons around, otherwise you would be right.

Jidmah wrote:

Berzerker, meltas do kill deff dreads. That's the problem, really. If it gets close enough to charge next turn(12"), some random melta-gun wielding guys will run up to it and blow it up. There are simply too many melta weapons around, otherwise you would be right.

Great! That's a melta that isn't blowing up a Battlewagon, which is just as expensive, also vulnerable to meltas, and in some ways more useful.

Plus,even an AP 1 Penetrating hit only has about a 1/3 of actually killing or immobilizing a Deff Dread under a KFF. But if we're going to keep discussing Dreads, let's move it to the Deff Dread thread I started; here, let's stick with Paladins. Dreads DO work well against them, since Paladins can't take meltas and they're pretty scant in the rest of the GK list, particularly a Draigowing list.

EDIT: Quick math indicates that a BS 4 melta shot within melta range has almost exactly a 20% chance to destroy or immobilize a Deff Dread under KFF protection, or a 40% chance if not. Those are pretty decent odds, particularly for such a cheap unit. As extra insurance you could swap out one DCCW for a skorcha, which makes the Dread a little cheaper and lets you at least, get a little revenge by flaming the melta-carrier if you're Immobilized.

Jidmah wrote:Just for comparison, your claimed 1/144 would be 0.69%.

This doesn't even factor in causing more five unsaved wounds (likely) or more than one unsaved wound (not so much). So two units of shoota boyz stand a decent chance of actually killing random models from the paladin unit - neither player can influence which one.

DID you just said 0.69% IS decent chance. I mean, LOL?

Jidmah wrote:Proven wrong above.

It was more like the problem of your interpretation, and the way you like to paint beautiful pictures by providing misleading probabilities. If you are BOOSTING up your probability simply by firing your WHOLE army into a single pallie squad, then by all means. KILL one Please. EVen then, your probabilities are still pathetic (maybe excellent in your eyes, since even a 0.69% IS good probability to you, LOL).

Jidmah wrote:
How does the equipment of a vehicle impact target saturation at all? Either it's shot at with the same weapons or it is not. Anything else is irrelevant. A chimera with a multi-laser provides just as much target saturation as a chimera with a flamer.

When you look at target saturation, you look at the overall list as a whole dude, not unit by unit or model by model. Wasting additional 20 points (in ANY CASE) when the point could be better spread and spent elsewhere is POOR saturation. In a TAC list, 2 extra DCCWs aren't as point efficient (taking into account the things they do and can do throughout a game of 5-7 turns) as 2 skorcha or 2 big shootas for example.

Jidmah wrote:If paladins kill your army, there is no point being competitive in an imaginary TAC setting. If you can expect paladins to definitely show up in your metagame, fielding deff dreads to kill them is competitive. You also don't have to change your kan wall all that much to include them. They can be taken as troops, so they don't even compete for any slots, you just have to fiend the points.

Except that they don't. I have already shown that GHaz and Kans are sufficient in takin down Paladins, and whose lists are efficient against all other codexes. The point of making a TAC list is to strike that balance.

Jidmah wrote:Unload everyone but thrakka somewhere in terrain and tank shock paladins with deff rollas. Maybe some are killed, maybe they run away. Usually not the case. Shoot them with everything. Drop Thrakka on them,

LOL, in one thread you are advocating against Ghaz, and now you are presenting a different argument.

Jidmah wrote:so the BW can't be shot by the paladins now stuck in combat. Then have the battlewagons take care of any vehicles in the back field, returning to tank shock paladins next turn. They most likely start shooting and/or assaulting battlewagons now, because of the danger of running away. If they don't, continue steamrolling them. Just keep shooting them and moving back if they try to come closer, or simply push them away from your orks by tank-shocking on top of them. Once they have lost a few models and their banner or FNP or Draigo charge nobz into them to finish them off. If everything goes well, you have killed the paladins and have two tirds of your army left. If it gets hairy, you have half left. Koptaz and buggies take care of anything else lurking around - at the very least lock a psyfleman in combat for a few turns.

Looking at your comments here, I seriously doubt you know what you are arguing for.

I explained to the OP that to deal with Paladins with orks, Ghaz is the most "EFFICIENT" choice.
THen comes all your crappy counter argument that the more efficient way to deal with them IS to shoot them with orks (and even continue staying away from them - in another thread).

Note : My stand is Ghaz is the most efficient candidate for this job than any other units, NOT Ghaz is > Ghaz + loota + shoota + DeffRolla combined. I am not even debating on tactics OR ways to execute your moves (like loading ghaz into wagons, deploying lootas into cover, etc etc).

At the end of the day, you are telling us, do EVERYTHING of the above - tank shock, shoot them, throw ghaz into them.

LOL, seriously, who doesn't know throwing everything of your army (including Ghaz himself) is > throwing Ghaz in alone in the equation, ALL else being equal? I mean, what's your point? LOL.
At the end of the day, Ghaz is the one who makes the most impact, point for point, damage for damage. Shootas, lootas, deffrollas are just chipping in because they have nothing better to do. If there is a PsyDread somewhere, the wagons and lootas are better off targetting him than the Paladins.



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BeRzErKeR wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

Berzerker, meltas do kill deff dreads. That's the problem, really. If it gets close enough to charge next turn(12"), some random melta-gun wielding guys will run up to it and blow it up. There are simply too many melta weapons around, otherwise you would be right.

Great! That's a melta that isn't blowing up a Battlewagon, which is just as expensive, also vulnerable to meltas, and in some ways more useful.

Plus,even an AP 1 Penetrating hit only has about a 1/3 of actually killing or immobilizing a Deff Dread under a KFF. But if we're going to keep discussing Dreads, let's move it to the Deff Dread thread I started; here, let's stick with Paladins. Dreads DO work well against them, since Paladins can't take meltas and they're pretty scant in the rest of the GK list, particularly a Draigowing list.

EDIT: Quick math indicates that a BS 4 melta shot within melta range has almost exactly a 20% chance to destroy or immobilize a Deff Dread under KFF protection, or a 40% chance if not. Those are pretty decent odds, particularly for such a cheap unit. As extra insurance you could swap out one DCCW for a skorcha, which makes the Dread a little cheaper and lets you at least, get a little revenge by flaming the melta-carrier if you're Immobilized.

Agree with all your attempted math, except your assumption that there is only 1 melta.
If you can have 2k worth of DeffDread and AV14 goodness, then I can have 2k worth of Missiles, meltas, and Multimelta goodness. A melta firing at your dread does not mean nothing is firing at your wagon. It simply means ANOTHER melta is firing at your wagon :-).

Isseyfaran wrote:Agree with all your attempted math, except your assumption that there is only 1 melta.
If you can have 2k worth of DeffDread and AV14 goodness, then I can have 2k worth of Missiles, meltas, and Multimelta goodness. A melta firing at your dread does not mean nothing is firing at your wagon. It simply means ANOTHER melta is firing at your wagon :-).

That's certainly true. But what it really means is that FEWER meltas are shooting at my wagon.

The game is all about forcing your opponents to make choices. If you hit my Deff Dread with, just for example, a melta-carrying Veteran squad, it's probably going to die. But that means they're NOT shooting at anything else; you've been forced to use your meltas to take out the Dread, which means that the odds of Ghazghkull and 7 Nobs hitting home just went way up. That's target saturation.
And if you DON'T hit the Dread with at least enough firepower to immobilize it, then it'll hit home. And a Deff Dread does nearly as much damage in CC as Ghazghkull does. Against an army with plenty of AT weapons, like IG, I'd certainly lose at least a couple BWs/Dreads on the way in. It'll take two turns to get there, after all, so the other army gets at least one full round of shooting and more likely two.

But we're not talking about IG, we're talking about Draigowing. Can you point out to me where you see melta in Draigowing? I think (don't have the GK codex with me, could be wrong) that the only place you can get it is on Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders, and Inquisitorial Henchmen. And a multi-melta Dreadnought means one Psyfleman less. If I'm playing 2k Orks and you're playing 2k Draigowing, no, you DON'T have 2k worth of meltas. You've got a bunch of psycannons and some Psyfleman Dreadnoughts, and my Deff Dreads with KFF coverage aren't scared of those.

As a Draigowing player, let me give some perspective from the GK point of view.

1. A common Draigowing configuration is the paladinstar - Draigo, librarian and 10 paladins. Usually, you won't see Apothecaries being used by good paladin players, meaning no FNP. It is just not necessary. More experienced players would rather use the 75 points on something else.

2. Paladins with a librarian can kill 9 killa kans just fine. Might of Titans means they hit like monstrous creatures and will just tear through those kans. Though not all Draigowing players run libbies, many do. Though I guess if you're running 9 kans, what else they got to do besides assault?

3. Do not underestimate volume-of-attacks. There is no single best way to kill a paladinstar. Only through a concentrated effort can you hope to take them down. Pour huge amounts of attacks into them. Units like lootas, burnas and boys will whittle them down through time, and that's all your really need to do. Once they get reduced to less than half strength, their offensive output is just not enough. Then they can even be tarpitted by units of 20 boys.

4. Limited mobility and low-model count. In objectives-based games, you don't necessarily have to kill the paladins to beat them. Use mobility to your advantage and play the missions. Screen and tarpit. Delaying/preventing them from reaching obectives may be a more viable solution than trying to kill them outright.

Thank you for an outside opinon jy2, it really helps to get an overall view as this is orks current big issue.

This is a classic thread.

BeRzErKeR wrote:But we're not talking about IG, we're talking about Draigowing. Can you point out to me where you see melta in Draigowing? I think (don't have the GK codex with me, could be wrong) that the only place you can get it is on Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders, and Inquisitorial Henchmen. And a multi-melta Dreadnought means one Psyfleman less. If I'm playing 2k Orks and you're playing 2k Draigowing, no, you DON'T have 2k worth of meltas. You've got a bunch of psycannons and some Psyfleman Dreadnoughts, and my Deff Dreads with KFF coverage aren't scared of those.

Actually I was talking about DeffDreads being poor in a TAC competitive list. Maybe you missed it. Maybe you didnt read. Read again.
If allowed to tailor my list against DraigoWing, I ll just take Ghaz and walkers, and minimal of everything. But what's the point of tailoring.

BeRzErKeR wrote:That's certainly true. But what it really means is that FEWER meltas are shooting at my wagon.

That's true, except that if it is sufficient for everyone to do their job at the end of the day, then it doesn't matter anymore.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The game is all about forcing your opponents to make choices. If you hit my Deff Dread with, just for example, a melta-carrying Veteran squad, it's probably going to die. But that means they're NOT shooting at anything else; you've been forced to use your meltas to take out the Dread, which means that the odds of Ghazghkull and 7 Nobs hitting home just went way up. That's target saturation.

Actually no. Your Dreads are on average slower than your wagons by 4 inches every turn (not even taking into account terrains). Over the course of 3 turns, that's 12 inches. I don't even have to fire my meltas simultaneously at your Dread and wagon.

Isseyfaran wrote:Actually I was talking about DeffDreads being poor in a TAC competitive list. Maybe you missed it. Maybe you didnt read. Read again.
If allowed to tailor my list against DraigoWing, I ll just take Ghaz and walkers, and minimal of everything. But what's the point of tailoring.

Two points. First; this is a thread about killing Paladins. As such, I am, in fact, discussing units that are good at. . . killing Paladins. What a shock!

Second; I DO take Deff Dreads in my TAC list. I've said that. Maybe you missed it. Maybe you didn't read. Read again. My entire contention is that they AREN'T poor in a TAC competitive list, and are even BETTER against Paladins than against a lot of other lists.

Isseyfaran wrote:That's true, except that if it is sufficient for everyone to do their job at the end of the day, then it doesn't matter anymore.

If your opponent has enough weapons to kill everything in your list, then yes, you lose. That's kind of a pointless thing to say, though. The Deff Dreads INCREASE the odds that your opponent WON'T have enough for 'everyone to do their job at the end of the day'. Which is, y'know, kind of the point.

Isseyfaran wrote: Actually no. Your Dreads are on average slower than your wagons by 4 inches every turn (not even taking into account terrains). Over the course of 3 turns, that's 12 inches. I don't even have to fire my meltas simultaneously at your Dread and wagon.

Over the course of 3 turns, my Dreads (which started off 12" onto the board) will move an average of 28 or 29 inches. Add in a 6" assault, and they have a threat range over those three turns of 46". At the beginning of my second Shooting Phase, they will be between 25" and 30" forward.

My BWs can move 39" over three turns, but they don't even HAVE to use all that range. My units have a 28" assault radius out of those BWs, using Ghazzy's Waaagh; 13" BW move, 2" disembark range, 1" width of the base, 6" Fleet, 6" assault. In order to melta a BW, which you are only capable of doing on your second turn before I charge, you will have to move forward to meet me. If you do that, the Deff Dreads can reach you on my next turn.

If you hold the meltas back until after I've dropped off the assault, then I don't care what you do to the BWs. They've done their job, anything else they accomplish is just gravy; and at that point my Deff Dreads will be making their own attack run, anyway. Target saturation, for a BW/Deff Dread list, is only important for ranged weapons; you cannot drop enough meltas on me Turn 2 to take out my vehicles, and that's really the only chance you get before the charge hits.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Two points. First; this is a thread about killing Paladins. As such, I am, in fact, discussing units that are good at. . . killing Paladins. What a shock!

No need to be shocked. Because few people here advocate list tailoring.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Second; I DO take Deff Dreads in my TAC list. I've said that. Maybe you missed it. Maybe you didn't read. Read again. My entire contention is that they AREN'T poor in a TAC competitive list, and are even BETTER against Paladins than against a lot of other lists.

YOUR EXPERIENCE counts for nothing, especially when you have no tournament record to speak of. So what we are left here is theoryhammering. But if you feel there is a strong need to prove me wrong on the table, Vassal anytime :-).

BeRzErKeR wrote:That's true, except that if it is sufficient for everyone to do their job at the end of the day, then it doesn't matter anymore
If your opponent has enough weapons to kill everything in your list, then yes, you lose. That's kind of a pointless thing to say, though. The Deff Dreads INCREASE the odds that your opponent WON'T have enough for 'everyone to do their job at the end of the day'. Which is, y'know, kind of the point..

Which is why you need to spread out your points more efficiently across your entire army list so that your opponent DOES NOT have enough weapons to take out everything you have before you take him out.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Over the course of 3 turns, my Dreads (which started off 12" onto the board) will move an average of 28 or 29 inches. Add in a 6" assault, and they have a threat range over those three turns of 46".

If you start 12" off the board, I m assuming you are talking about pitched battle, in which case no smart opponents will deploy directly opposite you. 46" don't get you into combat (more often than not) if opponent deploy across the corner.

BeRzErKeR wrote:My BWs can move 39" over three turns, but they don't even HAVE to use all that range. My units have a 28" assault radius out of those BWs, using Ghazzy's Waaagh; 13" BW move, 2" disembark range, 1" width of the base, 6" Fleet, 6" assault. In order to melta a BW, which you are only capable of doing on your second turn before I charge, you will have to move forward to meet me. If you do that, the Deff Dreads can reach you on my next turn.

So the key point is, the meltas don't even have to worry about both the Dread and the Wagon in the same turn. They can deal with the Wagons on turn 2, and the Dreads turn 3.

BeRzErKeR wrote:If you hold the meltas back until after I've dropped off the assault, then I don't care what you do to the BWs. They've done their job, anything else they accomplish is just gravy; and at that point my Deff Dreads will be making their own attack run, anyway.

Which is why I don't do that. For a thorough explanation of how to use meltas, you probably should read up on Dash v.s. Stelek's BatRep.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Target saturation, for a BW/Deff Dread list, is only important for ranged weapons; you cannot drop enough meltas on me Turn 2 to take out my vehicles, and that's really the only chance you get before the charge hits.

2 things wrong here.
(1) If your wagon can travel 26" over 2 turns, then meltas CAN reach you on turn 2.
(2) Range Weapon for e.g. S8 Missiles don't fire at AV14 wagons. If side armor is exposed, then same concept applies, deal with wagon - the faster threat, Dreads later. So both cases, there is minimal target saturation to speak of.