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I've been playing Orkz now for about a year, and most of my games have been against marine or chaos players. The biggest threats have been Demon Princes but I've figured out ways to deal with them.

However, recently one of the players in our gaming circle has started to play Tyranids and his favourite units are Swarmlords, Trygons and the like. These are much tougher than Demon Princes. I need help!

We've played a few games but I'm still relatively inexperienced killing them. The best chances I've had have been with tank shocking with my Deff Rollas, everything else has worked terribly. Lootas can't seem to force enough saves for them to fail them, Boyz wounding on 6's is just horrible chances, especially with small squads.

What would Dakka Dakka suggest?

Nobs with power claws in big squads of boyz.

My meganobz made short work of two dreadknights, a defiler, that big bird demon monster thing from chaos this weekend. They also like to play with wraithlords, the problem is that playtime is usually over shortly, and then they need to run and find a new big friend. I would argue that nobs in squads of boyz are not ideal for the task because they could be doing better things. but If you don't have a nob/meganob squad, then it's your best bet besides maybe a deffdread.

Grots R OP wrote:but If you don't have a nob/meganob squad, then it's your best bet besides maybe a deffdread.

A deffdread is going to get ripped apart by practically any MC.
Most MC's have a WS of 5 or higher- they will hit you first
Most MC's have a I4+, the only MC's you will get a chance to swing on is something slow like a GUO or Tervigon
MC's are going to roll 2d6 to penetrate you, and have a S of 5 minimum. The average roll of 2d6 is 7, 7+5 is 12. The weakest of MC's has a greater than 50% chance to get a result on your dread, at the least stripping it of CC attacks, at the best blowing it.

As a daemon player, I would not advise sending walkers at MC's- It's a death sentence.

Jihallah wrote:

Grots R OP wrote:but If you don't have a nob/meganob squad, then it's your best bet besides maybe a deffdread.

A deffdread is going to get ripped apart by practically any MC.
Most MC's have a WS of 5 or higher- they will hit you first
Most MC's have a I4+, the only MC's you will get a chance to swing on is something slow like a GUO or Tervigon
MC's are going to roll 2d6 to penetrate you, and have a S of 5 minimum. The average roll of 2d6 is 7, 7+5 is 12. The weakest of MC's has a greater than 50% chance to get a result on your dread, at the least stripping it of CC attacks, at the best blowing it.

As a daemon player, I would not advise sending walkers at MC's- It's a death sentence.

So as a Deamon player what do you find the hardest to deal with against Orkz?

Lootas can do a number on monsterous creatures....except for the 2+ save ones of course.

Whiskeyjack wrote:So as a Deamon player what do you find the hardest to deal with against Orkz?

Lootaz and shoota boyz.

MANZ are a good choice against daemons, but I am a big fan of a BT with might. Instant deathing MANZ before they swing, hitting on 3+ and killing on 2+ tends to chew them up pretty damn quickly.

Nobs with a few power claws and big choppas with a waaagh banner will do heavy damage to any MC, especially if the MC doesn't have grenades and charges you , while your in terrain.

Beyond that, deffkoptas can do quite well against MCs, if they have rokkits and stay around 24-20 inches away.

Lootaz work against pretty much any MC, I have an entire Nidzilla army off the table just using lootaz.

Nobz work great as long as the MC does not have a very high amount of wounds and attacks, but those tend to be only the biggest bugs and khorne daemons.

Burnaz work quite well if they are accompanied by a warboss. They ignore the MC's armor and the opponent has to split attacks, so either the warboss is going unwounded or the burnaz are.

If all else fails, tarpit in a unit of boyz. The boyz will most likely not cause many wounds, but the nob will and the MC is out of action killing a unit about it's own cost for a few turns.

And, obviously, Ghazghkull Thrakka will tear pretty much any MC appart on his Waaagh!, except maybe fateweaver.

Grotz with Runtherds and grot-prods, or Nob squads with a painboy and his 'urty syringe. Poison weapons are your friends. Never underestimate the usefulness of the runtherds.

Jihallah wrote:

Grots R OP wrote:but If you don't have a nob/meganob squad, then it's your best bet besides maybe a deffdread.

A deffdread is going to get ripped apart by practically any MC.
Most MC's have a WS of 5 or higher- they will hit you first
Most MC's have a I4+, the only MC's you will get a chance to swing on is something slow like a GUO or Tervigon
MC's are going to roll 2d6 to penetrate you, and have a S of 5 minimum. The average roll of 2d6 is 7, 7+5 is 12. The weakest of MC's has a greater than 50% chance to get a result on your dread, at the least stripping it of CC attacks, at the best blowing it.

As a daemon player, I would not advise sending walkers at MC's- It's a death sentence.

I actually learned that the hard way after I wrote this post this weekend. :\

Deffdreads are just gluttons for pain. In my last 6 games, my deffdread has yet to swing.

Runtherds won't last long as they will lose the assault, then fail their LD test because of the large negative modifier.
6 or 7 diversified nobz, 3 with klaws, rest big choppas, will kill MCs good long as they don't have ID strength or are the Swarmlord.
Ghaz with his Waagghh inv save & EW may be able to take out the Swarmlord, maybe.
A wagon full of tankbustaz may do a number on MCs without a 2+ save, haven't tried it personally.
Best way is to force no retreat wounds on the MC by killing lots of little bugs in a multi charge.

Use models with PKs and hope they hit. Wounding is almost a given, but hitting will be on 4+ at BEST.

Be carfeul of tarpitting as fearless can rip you apart just as quick as the MC can.

Ghazzy in a Deffrolla Battlewagon with diversified Nobs.

It's how Orks deal with everything. It doesn't matter what it is.

I would say lootaz, deffrollaz, nobs, manz, or taktikul no retreat wounds with another squad of gribblies.

So, when all is said and done : finally we can conclude that ANY units in the ork codex can be used against MC.

rubicant99 wrote:Runtherds won't last long as they will lose the assault, then fail their LD test because of the large negative modifier.
6 or 7 diversified nobz, 3 with klaws, rest big choppas, will kill MCs good long as they don't have ID strength or are the Swarmlord.
Ghaz with his Waagghh inv save & EW may be able to take out the Swarmlord, maybe.
A wagon full of tankbustaz may do a number on MCs without a 2+ save, haven't tried it personally.
Best way is to force no retreat wounds on the MC by killing lots of little bugs in a multi charge.

Keep in mind that tyranids aren't the only MCs out there.

psyklone wrote:Use models with PKs and hope they hit. Wounding is almost a given, but hitting will be on 4+ at BEST.

Be carfeul of tarpitting as fearless can rip you apart just as quick as the MC can.

Unless the MC has a silly amount of attacks (like 5 or more), it would still kill like two or three boyz a turn, plus another two or three due to fearless, minus any wounds caused. Even after you lost fearless, the bosspole helps staying until the very end. Boy mobz tend to stay in combat with single models without many attack rather long.

I would suggest tankbustas, If you are playing 'nids then the glory hogs rule is null (no vehicles to chase) so you can get them to do anything you want to.

Mob of 10-15 Nob with PK, 2x Tankhammers, That's 7-12 24" S8 AP3 shots per turn (remember to keep out of assault range of the big bug you're killing and in cover) that can move & fire. Then when they assault (to rid themselves of pesky rokkit orks) they have to deal with 2x S10s at initiative order then a PK on the backswing, and remember that we outnumber, so you should get to swing back at least once, and if you've been hammering them with rokkits all the way they should be sufficiently weakened.

Either that or Deffkoptas with Rokkits, simply because they can hang out of reach and annoy them with rokkits.

Rokkit Buggies are quite good at this job, actually. 105 points gets you 3 TL rokkits, which will put a wound or two per turn on any MC in the game; they're cheaper than Deff Koptas for the same firepower, just as fast, and about as survivable. They're also a decent TAC choice, so building a list that includes 6 or 9 buggies doesn't need to mean tailoring against your local Tyranid player.

MANZ bombs work pretty well too; 3-5 MANZ in a Trukk can, if they're supported right, charge up the board and unload right into the target's face most times. You can have three wound groups for pretty cheap, so you probably won't lose a model for at least a couple rounds unless you're up against ID attacks, and 4 MANZ will usually murder even a T7 MC in a single round of combat.

Ghazghkull has been mentioned before, and I second his endorsement. You should think of Ghazghkull as a cruise missile; you fire him at something you want dead, and he kills it and everything else unfortunate enough to be in the vicinity, too. He hits like a freight train and soaks up an unholy amount of damage; there are very, very few things in the game that can beat him on the Waaagh! Just make sure to get the charge.

Otherwise, tarpit with a big mob and whittle them down slowly with the PK Nob. Against Tyranids, unfortunately, this is usually a bad choice, because there'll be a mob of Gaunts hanging around who would just LOVE to charge your tarpit with Poisoned attacks rerolling 1s to miss and maybe FNP or FC from a nearby Tervigon, so I would recommend trying something else first.

I don't see MANz being effective at all. Any MC worth its name is goint to kill two of those MANz, maybe even all of them if it can instant-death them, be it via boneswords, (nemesis) force weapons or simply strength 8.

Ordinary boyz--or any decent assault troops really--can kill fearless monstrous creatures using combination charges and "no retreat" wounds.

Detailed Instructions:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/01/spacecurves-tactics-class-death-by.html

I used to do this routinely with my Ravenguard assault marines. Combo-charge the MC and the little guys, focus all your attacks on the little ones, and the hive tyrant or whatever winds up taking 10+ automatic wounds from a bunch of Str4 models.

Jidmah wrote:I don't see MANz being effective at all. Any MC worth its name is goint to kill two of those MANz, maybe even all of them if it can instant-death them, be it via boneswords, (nemesis) force weapons or simply strength 8.

Cyborked MANz get it done. Mine walked right through 2 dreadknights this past weekend. Granted there were 6 Manz, I made the invul save or else only 5 would have swung, but the look on his face when I rolled 24 power klaws was priceless.

Jidmah wrote:I don't see MANz being effective at all. Any MC worth its name is goint to kill two of those MANz, maybe even all of them if it can instant-death them, be it via boneswords, (nemesis) force weapons or simply strength 8.

Uh. . . why? They'll have a 4+ to hit, a 2+ to wound, and ignore armor saves.

4 attacks will score, on average, 1 and 2/3rds wounds; round up to 2. You lose 1 MAN if you have 4 or none if you have 3 diversified models, then the 3 left get 12 attacks, either 4 or 6 hits depending on WS, and put 3-5 wounds on the MC. If it isn't dead yet, they'll kill it in the next round. Total casualties of 1 or 2, depending on WAC.

In order to kill 2 MANz in one round without ID, the MC will need to have 9 attacks. What MC has 9 attacks? I can't think of a single one. Now, if they have ID attacks, just 4 attacks will often be enough to kill 2 MANz, yes, which means that it will take 5-6 MANz to kill an MC with 4 ID attacks in a single round. Total casualties of 2 on average, only 1 if you're rolling a little hot.

Trading two MANz for a scary MC seems very much worth it to me.

EDIT: And as Grots R OP said, if you get them cybork bodies the math gets even better. That means you have to take Grotsnik, though, which will necessitate some careful management.

What about Deffrollas?

Well, you can just take 30 slugga boyz and head on MCs/wait for MCs - they may kill 3-6 of your sluggas, and then they'll get 75-100 attacks defending and 100-120 attacks charging. Never, Never, NEVER underestimate hole buckets of dices.

Vexler wrote:Well, you can just take 30 slugga boyz and head on MCs/wait for MCs - they may kill 3-6 of your sluggas, and then they'll get 75-100 attacks defending and 100-120 attacks charging. Never, Never, NEVER underestimate hole buckets of dices.

Eh, that actually doesn't work that well against high-Toughness critters. First off, that 30-strong mob of sluggas must be footslogging, which means that it WILL get whittled down on the way in; second, it can't shoot at all, so it isn't contributing to the battle while it's running forward; third, you won't be able to get all 30 models within combat range on the turn you charge; and finally, against, say, T6, 3+ armor save, WS4, you've got a 4+ to hit, a 6+ to wound (on the charge, and you CAN'T hurt it on any subsequent rounds) and then a 3+ to save. All that means that only 1/36 attacks will actually stick a wound on. You probably won't kill it on the round you charge. Of course the Nob will punch it to death eventually, but it's still not the best solution.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Jidmah wrote:I don't see MANz being effective at all. Any MC worth its name is goint to kill two of those MANz, maybe even all of them if it can instant-death them, be it via boneswords, (nemesis) force weapons or simply strength 8.

Uh. . . why? They'll have a 4+ to hit, a 2+ to wound, and ignore armor saves.

4 attacks will score, on average, 1 and 2/3rds wounds; round up to 2. You lose 1 MAN if you have 4 or none if you have 3 diversified models, then the 3 left get 12 attacks, either 4 or 6 hits depending on WS, and put 3-5 wounds on the MC. If it isn't dead yet, they'll kill it in the next round. Total casualties of 1 or 2, depending on WAC.

Actually, with my BT I'm going to hit on 3+ and ID on 2+. You're going to lose 3-4 MANZ easy.
MANZ are good against MC's- some MC's though will simply eat them. No one should need a list or to be told which ones fit in here- Instant death, very high weaponskill high attack MC's with invulnerable saves tend to stomp down MANZ. The bloodthirster is one of them- S8 with might, WS10, 5 attacks.

Jihallah wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Jidmah wrote:I don't see MANz being effective at all. Any MC worth its name is goint to kill two of those MANz, maybe even all of them if it can instant-death them, be it via boneswords, (nemesis) force weapons or simply strength 8.

Uh. . . why? They'll have a 4+ to hit, a 2+ to wound, and ignore armor saves.

4 attacks will score, on average, 1 and 2/3rds wounds; round up to 2. You lose 1 MAN if you have 4 or none if you have 3 diversified models, then the 3 left get 12 attacks, either 4 or 6 hits depending on WS, and put 3-5 wounds on the MC. If it isn't dead yet, they'll kill it in the next round. Total casualties of 1 or 2, depending on WAC.

Actually, with my BT I'm going to hit on 3+ and ID on 2+. You're going to lose 3-4 MANZ easy.
MANZ are good against MC's- some MC's though will simply eat them. No one should need a list or to be told which ones fit in here- Instant death, very high weaponskill high attack MC's with invulnerable saves tend to stomp down MANZ. The bloodthirster is one of them- S8 with might, WS10, 5 attacks.

/makes mental note-BT not Manz friends, no play nice, give to lootas.

Jihallah wrote:
Actually, with my BT I'm going to hit on 3+ and ID on 2+. You're going to lose 3-4 MANZ easy.
MANZ are good against MC's- some MC's though will simply eat them. No one should need a list or to be told which ones fit in here- Instant death, very high weaponskill high attack MC's with invulnerable saves tend to stomp down MANZ. The bloodthirster is one of them- S8 with might, WS10, 5 attacks.

You'll kill 2-3 on average, not 3-4; 2.77 repeating, if my calculator is correct. 3.33 if you get the charge. But in essence you're right; a Bloodthirster, being a hihg-cost MC dedicated to CC, shouldn't be attacked in assault. Well, not by anything short of Ghazzy, at least.

But against Dreadknights, Wraithlords, and almost all TMCs, MANz do the job quite well.

Who ever suggested MANz should feel sorry for themselves for giving that type of advice. MC ignore armor, typically cause ID and the MANz dont have the numbers to shrug off the attacks.

My #1 answer to Tyranid MC is rokkits first. Good enough range to stay away from then usually, and your wounding on 2s, and ignoring all their saves minus the ones with 2+ (which isnt alot) Best of all, most of my rokkits are in my boyz mobs, which is my #2 answer for anything MC. I just tarpit the buggers and use the PK to rip whats left of them apart.

Rinse, repeat. Lootas.......eh, they CAN get the job done, but if you ask me, taking a Loota unit, let alone multiples, means your doing it wrong (unless its a build your using at a tourny) They just arnt that great against nids, their BS isnt good enough to really rip up the numbers the Nids can throw around