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Actually, our very best MC hunters are in fact our Grots. However, you don't actually want to give more than 1 a Grot Prod, instead keep the Grabbin' Stick- because that's reducing the attacks by 1 for each. Most MC's don't have that many attacks, actually, so you could possibly get it doing 0 to you, while your third Prod runtherd sticks it with poison. Even if you lose (at most) 1 Grot a round (Ha!) and lose morale, you've got Squig-hounds for re-rolls. If you lined it up right, you could potentially tarpit two 'fexes with these guys, reducing each to 1 Attack and splitting your attacks between the two.

That idea sounds both hilarious and humiliating at the same time. I love it.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Jidmah wrote:I don't see MANz being effective at all. Any MC worth its name is goint to kill two of those MANz, maybe even all of them if it can instant-death them, be it via boneswords, (nemesis) force weapons or simply strength 8.

Uh. . . why? They'll have a 4+ to hit, a 2+ to wound, and ignore armor saves.

4 attacks will score, on average, 1 and 2/3rds wounds; round up to 2. You lose 1 MAN if you have 4 or none if you have 3 diversified models, then the 3 left get 12 attacks, either 4 or 6 hits depending on WS, and put 3-5 wounds on the MC. If it isn't dead yet, they'll kill it in the next round. Total casualties of 1 or 2, depending on WAC.

In order to kill 2 MANz in one round without ID, the MC will need to have 9 attacks. What MC has 9 attacks? I can't think of a single one. Now, if they have ID attacks, just 4 attacks will often be enough to kill 2 MANz, yes, which means that it will take 5-6 MANz to kill an MC with 4 ID attacks in a single round. Total casualties of 2 on average, only 1 if you're rolling a little hot.

Trading two MANz for a scary MC seems very much worth it to me.

EDIT: And as Grots R OP said, if you get them cybork bodies the math gets even better. That means you have to take Grotsnik, though, which will necessitate some careful management.

Almost all dangerous MCs have weapon skill 5 or higher, so they would hit on a 3+. Blootletters, Daemon Princes, Trygons, Carnifexes and about any Character MC in the game will easily kill at least two of them. Even weaker MCs can cause instant death of some sort, reroll to hit rolls or otherwise make them pretty good against MANz. Not to mention that every single one will make total mincemeat out of your MANz if they get to shoot first(and/or use PSAs) and then charge them - if they don't simply move away from your overcostd slow and purposeful deathstar.
If you need MANz to handle those WS3 support MCs you've got an entirely different problem at your hands.

There simply is no point in using MANz over regular nobz against MCs, Grotznik simply makes you pay an HQ slot and 160 + 5 points per model for your cybork, without the benefit of wound allocation, Waagh! Banners or bosspoles.

Jidmah wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Jidmah wrote:I don't see MANz being effective at all. Any MC worth its name is goint to kill two of those MANz, maybe even all of them if it can instant-death them, be it via boneswords, (nemesis) force weapons or simply strength 8.

Uh. . . why? They'll have a 4+ to hit, a 2+ to wound, and ignore armor saves.

4 attacks will score, on average, 1 and 2/3rds wounds; round up to 2. You lose 1 MAN if you have 4 or none if you have 3 diversified models, then the 3 left get 12 attacks, either 4 or 6 hits depending on WS, and put 3-5 wounds on the MC. If it isn't dead yet, they'll kill it in the next round. Total casualties of 1 or 2, depending on WAC.

In order to kill 2 MANz in one round without ID, the MC will need to have 9 attacks. What MC has 9 attacks? I can't think of a single one. Now, if they have ID attacks, just 4 attacks will often be enough to kill 2 MANz, yes, which means that it will take 5-6 MANz to kill an MC with 4 ID attacks in a single round. Total casualties of 2 on average, only 1 if you're rolling a little hot.

Trading two MANz for a scary MC seems very much worth it to me.

EDIT: And as Grots R OP said, if you get them cybork bodies the math gets even better. That means you have to take Grotsnik, though, which will necessitate some careful management.

Almost all dangerous MCs have weapon skill 5 or higher, so they would hit on a 3+. Blootletters, Daemon Princes, Trygons, Carnifexes and about any Character MC in the game will easily kill at least two of them. Even weaker MCs can cause instant death of some sort, reroll to hit rolls or otherwise make them pretty good against MANz. Not to mention that every single one will make total mincemeat out of your MANz if they get to shoot first(and/or use PSAs) and then charge them - if they don't simply move away from your overcostd slow and purposeful deathstar.
If you need MANz to handle those WS3 support MCs you've got an entirely different problem at your hands.

There simply is no point in using MANz over regular nobz against MCs, Grotznik simply makes you pay an HQ slot and 160 + 5 points per model for your cybork, without the benefit of wound allocation, Waagh! Banners or bosspoles.

I believe the reason we're disagreeing here is that we're talking about different things.

I'm certainly not recommending fielding MANz on foot; that's just a waste of points, and time, and everything. I'm also not necessarily recommending Grotsnik, though he is at least a viable choice. What I brought up as a possibility was what I refer to as a MANz-bomb; 3-6 MANz in a trukk, as part of a trukk or battlewagon-spam list. Moving Flat Out first turn, along with your other 8 trukks, from a forward starting position, puts you well over halfway across the board; or you can hide the trukk behind your Battlewagons and wait for something ugly to get a little too close. You have a charge range of 18-28" out of that trukk, or 23-28" if you brought Ghazghkull in your list. You'll very likely get the charge.

The point of using MANz is that they all have PKs, and they cost 5 points less than a bare-bones Nob with a PK. Regular Nobz do not do much damage to MCs without PKs; the BC and slugga/choppa nobz basically just act as ablative shielding. MANz can still be diversified very cheaply, though a bit less than regular Nobz,; if you're fighting any MC without ID attacks (such as a Daemon Prince, for instance, or most TMCs) they are absolutely NOT going to kill 2 MANz. They will kill 1 at most, unless they literally succeed on every single roll of every single die. 4 attacks, hitting on 3+ = 2.66 hits, wounding on 2+ = 2.5 wounds, on average.

1 wound = 1 wound on a MAN = 0 dead models. 2 wounds = 2 wounds on one wound group or 1 on 2 separate groups depending on unit size = 0 or 1 dead models. 3 wounds = 2 wounds on one group and 1 on another or 1 each on three groups = 0 or 1 dead model. You cannot lose a second model until you take a fourth wound; if you only took 3 MANz, you can't lose ONE model until you take a fourth wound. Hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+, that requires 6 attacks or more. Your survivors then inflict an average of 1.66 wounds each, and you can check my math on that below; if you have 3 MANz alive, they'll put an average of 5 wounds on anything T7/WS8 or below. If they're T8 or WS9+ the average drops to 3-4 wounds. That means that most TMCs are dead in the first round, a Daemon Prince is either dead or has one wound left. Only an MC with ID attacks has a good shot at winning combat against even 3 MANz. If you have 5-6, only a Bloodthirster is still in the running. Now, I'll repeat; you are correct in saying you don't want to charge Bloodthirsters with MANz. You'd need 6+ of them to score a kill, and you'd lose 2 on average. You also don't want to charge, say, the Swarmlord; but you don't want to charge those guys with REGULAR Nobz, either! Those are the kinds of targets you take out with Ghazghkull or shooting, not by throwing Nobz at them.

My point here is that against just about anything harder than Guardsman but less deadly than a Bloodthirster, a range that covers a LOT of possibilities, MANz are actually more efficient than regular Nobz; and counter-intuitively, this does include things that ignore armor. The reason is that the only Nobz that actually score many wounds against hard targets are PK Nobz. A PK Nob with Cybork runs 50-55 points, plus 50 points for a Painboy who does practically no damage, plus 15 points for the Waaagh Banner, plus all those 30-40 point Nobz without PKs that don't do a lot of killing against anything MEQ or tougher. A diversified MAN runs 40 or 45, and every single model in the unit is very likely do at least some damage every single round.

In short, a tooled-up Nobz squad is a more flexible unit than MANz, but also more expensive. A MANz-bomb does worse against some targets but better against others, and is much cheaper. 5 MANz + trukk with RPJ, BS and Reinforced Ram = 250 points, and used carefully they can be more than worth the price.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
I believe the reason we're disagreeing here is that we're talking about different things.

I'm certainly not recommending fielding MANz on foot

I certainly don't think Jidmah is recommending that either
My Fateweaver is a MC who is considered terrible in CC. Last time MANZ was sent at him, the trukk got blown (Come on. A trukk guarantees you the charge? Like its hard to destroy an open topped AV10 vehicle?), and he breath bolted and gave them a gift. In CC any unsaved wounds he does causes you to immediately make a LD test or be removed from play, with his soul devourer (that terrible power no one takes but is so useful on fateweaver since he has it anyway). If you diversified that MANZ unit, that increases the number of LD7 tests you take.
250p manz unit can get eaten by alot of MC's of comparable or even cheaper price.

For all the recommendation of Nobz and MANZ, I'm seeing a serious lack of what cuts me down play monster mash lists- shooting!
It's not the shooting that kill you as an MC- its the shooting AND the CC, whether its nobz or ghaz or manz or a mob of boyz with that damnable PK nob. Having to weather a torrent of fire always whittles down my MC's wounds, and then they get charged, have one last hurruh since ork initiative is so low, and then get PK'd into the dirt.

Oh yes. Grots are indeed the best against MC's for tarpitting shenanigans etc... In a vacuum.

Or if your entire field is covered in them.

But remember, MANz also each come with a twin-linked Shoota- that's basically a Storm bolter with slightly lower AP, that will hit at least half the time. There's your fire.

Jihallah wrote:
I certainly don't think Jidmah is recommending that either
My Fateweaver is a MC who is considered terrible in CC. Last time MANZ was sent at him, the trukk got blown (Come on. A trukk guarantees you the charge? Like its hard to destroy an open topped AV10 vehicle?), and he breath bolted and gave them a gift. In CC any unsaved wounds he does causes you to immediately make a LD test or be removed from play, with his soul devourer (that terrible power no one takes but is so useful on fateweaver since he has it anyway). If you diversified that MANZ unit, that increases the number of LD7 tests you take.
250p manz unit can get eaten by alot of MC's of comparable or even cheaper price.

For all the recommendation of Nobz and MANZ, I'm seeing a serious lack of what cuts me down play monster mash lists- shooting!
It's not the shooting that kill you as an MC- its the shooting AND the CC, whether its nobz or ghaz or manz or a mob of boyz with that damnable PK nob. Having to weather a torrent of fire always whittles down my MC's wounds, and then they get charged, have one last hurruh since ork initiative is so low, and then get PK'd into the dirt.

Oh yes. Grots are indeed the best against MC's for tarpitting shenanigans etc... In a vacuum.

Ha, no, I don't think he is! The mention of SnP made me think he thought I was, since honestly, in no game I've played with MANz-bombs has SnP ever been a real problem for them.

A single turn of Flat-Out Trukk movement moves you 19" forward; add that to a 12" deployment, and you're 31" forward on turn 1. If you're running, say, 9 trukks, 6 buggies, and a KFF Mek in a hardcore KOS list, the trukks will all have a cover save, and not many armies will have enough firepower to kill them all. Hell, not many armies will have enough to kill the majority of them; yeah, AV10 open-topped sucks, but when you have 15 AV10 open-topped vehicles on the field, a lot opponents get a bit wild-eyed.

MANz are so commonly thought of as a non-competitive unit that more often than not, I've found my opponents assume they can handle them later and choose to shoot first at the regular Nobz trukks or Ghazghkull's trukk; that means that I often get another 13" move for the MANz. If I do, I'm in CC against my chosen target by turn 2 most of the time. If not, I'm in CC with SOMETHING by turn 3 anyway by using the Waaagh!, unless I get a bad Kareen result; and honestly as long as they're in CC with something they tend to do just fine. The list of things MANz absolutely cannot deal with is really quite short.

The problem is getting them there, yes. But one trukk is pretty easy to hide behind 3 or 4 battlewagons, and one trukk is hard to pick out from 14 other light vehicles. I run trukks with Reinforced Rams, so I can plow straight through terrain, and that also helps them stay out of sight until it's time to charge. The biggest problem I have isn't losing the trukks, it's making sure they have a dismounted target so they don't have to charge moving vehicles; though honestly, I have pulled off some hilarious multi-assaults against parking lots with MANz, and killing 4 vehicles in one assault phase is always good for a laugh. Not very efficient, but a lot of fun.

Kanz with rokkits and multiple loota mobs.

I specifiy Kanz because they have BS3, rather than the 2 that a Deffkopta has, and cost about the same. against a single MC, kans shoot first, to soften/kill. against multiple, the lootas shoot first to soften, and if by some miracle they Kill then the Kans are free to soften up a new target.

against a Tervigon, i tend to shift over to Zooka/Loota mixes, targeting the tervigon with the templates, and placing the template on the edge of the base closest to a nearby group of the little dudes, so that scatters will soften them up.

other than that, give them to many things to try and deal with.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Ha, no, I don't think he is! The mention of SnP made me think he thought I was, since honestly, in no game I've played with MANz-bombs has SnP ever been a real problem for them.

You've never rolled 1's for charges? It can happen. Doesn't happen to normal nobs.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
A single turn of Flat-Out Trukk movement moves you 19" forward; add that to a 12" deployment, and you're 31" forward on turn 1. If you're running, say, 9 trukks, 6 buggies, and a KFF Mek in a hardcore KOS list, the trukks will all have a cover save, and not many armies will have enough firepower to kill them all. Hell, not many armies will have enough to kill the majority of them; yeah, AV10 open-topped sucks, but when you have 15 AV10 open-topped vehicles on the field, a lot opponents get a bit wild-eyed.

You deploy 12" all the time? what about spearhead, and DoW? 15 AV10 open-topped vehicles might get some people wild-eyed, but target prioritization takes care of that.
Besides that, I don't need to kill the majority to stop MANZ- I need to stop 3.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
MANz are so commonly thought of as a non-competitive unit that more often than not, I've found my opponents assume they can handle them later and choose to shoot first at the regular Nobz trukks or Ghazghkull's trukk; that means that I often get another 13" move for the MANz. If I do, I'm in CC against my chosen target by turn 2 most of the time. If not, I'm in CC with SOMETHING by turn 3 anyway by using the Waaagh!, unless I get a bad Kareen result; and honestly as long as they're in CC with something they tend to do just fine. The list of things MANz absolutely cannot deal with is really quite short.

Charge my bloodletters with your MANZ.
I'll give ya $5 if you're MANZ can beat my block of 'letters. Ork's are a fast CC army. Yes you are going to have orks in your grill turn 2+. You need to plan for this, otherwise you will lose to orks.
Saying you're going to be in CC by turn 2 is like being an IG player and telling me you're going to be shooting S10 shots at me from the first turn. It might make a new player scared, everyone else is used to it.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
The problem is getting them there, yes. But one trukk is pretty easy to hide behind 3 or 4 battlewagons, and one trukk is hard to pick out from 14 other light vehicles. I run trukks with Reinforced Rams, so I can plow straight through terrain, and that also helps them stay out of sight until it's time to charge. The biggest problem I have isn't losing the trukks, it's making sure they have a dismounted target so they don't have to charge moving vehicles; though honestly, I have pulled off some hilarious multi-assaults against parking lots with MANz, and killing 4 vehicles in one assault phase is always good for a laugh. Not very efficient, but a lot of fun.

How is killing 4 vehicles in one assault phase with a unit of MANZ not efficient o_O

Anvildude wrote:Or if your entire field is covered in them.

But remember, MANz also each come with a twin-linked Shoota- that's basically a Storm bolter with slightly lower AP, that will hit at least half the time. There's your fire.

Your entire field is covered in grots is still a vacuum. I have the rest of an army, not just a MC.
MANZ shooting =/= a big mob of shootaz. 3 buggy mobs firing rokkits into an MC, thats fire. 5 twin linked shootaz is not fire.

Jihallah wrote:

You've never rolled 1's for charges? It can happen. Doesn't happen to normal nobs.

You've only got a 1/36 chance of rolling snake eyes on your SnP movement for assault; it's happened to me a few times, but it doesn't happen often. Most of the time I get at least a 3 or 4, and I usually have movement to spare. If the point you're making is that MANz usually have a shorter charge range than other Orks, that's true, but they still have a pretty long charge range out of a trukk, and I have to compensate for the same problem all the time anyway because I almost always run Ghazghkull. As long as I start the turn with the MANz trukk within 23" of the target, I can Waaagh! and guarantee I'll get into assault. Not that many other units have that kind of assault distance. After that, yes, they're slow, but so long as you got one really good charge off that's ok.

In addition, it's not an expensive unit; 3-5 MANz in a trukk, 170-250 points. If it gets blown before they get there, ok, they'll hoof it forwards as best they can and act as a net to discourage things from trying to get around behind the rest of the army, or move to my objective and hunker down on it if that looks more valuable, or just take out whatever's nearby, even if it's a transport. It's a disappointment, yes, but not crippling. MANz are a throwaway unit, not a core to build an army around, that's why I call them bombs.

Jihallah wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:
A single turn of Flat-Out Trukk movement moves you 19" forward; add that to a 12" deployment, and you're 31" forward on turn 1. If you're running, say, 9 trukks, 6 buggies, and a KFF Mek in a hardcore KOS list, the trukks will all have a cover save, and not many armies will have enough firepower to kill them all. Hell, not many armies will have enough to kill the majority of them; yeah, AV10 open-topped sucks, but when you have 15 AV10 open-topped vehicles on the field, a lot opponents get a bit wild-eyed.

You deploy 12" all the time? what about spearhead, and DoW? 15 AV10 open-topped vehicles might get some people wild-eyed, but target prioritization takes care of that.
Besides that, I don't need to kill the majority to stop MANZ- I need to stop 3.

If I'm running KoS or Battlewagon Bash, then I deploy as far forward as I can basically all the time. Spearhead included. DoW basically delays everything by one turn, but it also stops heavy weapons from lighting me up turn one, which is nearly a fair trade.

Target prioritization is unique to every game situation. If they're behind three battlewagons, you can't shoot them at all. If they're mixed in with a mass of trukks and buggies then you can shoot them at the cost of not shooting something else, which is fine because, well, they're a throw-away unit.

Jihallah wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:
MANz are so commonly thought of as a non-competitive unit that more often than not, I've found my opponents assume they can handle them later and choose to shoot first at the regular Nobz trukks or Ghazghkull's trukk; that means that I often get another 13" move for the MANz. If I do, I'm in CC against my chosen target by turn 2 most of the time. If not, I'm in CC with SOMETHING by turn 3 anyway by using the Waaagh!, unless I get a bad Kareen result; and honestly as long as they're in CC with something they tend to do just fine. The list of things MANz absolutely cannot deal with is really quite short.

Charge my bloodletters with your MANZ.
I'll give ya $5 if you're MANZ can beat my block of 'letters. Ork's are a fast CC army. Yes you are going to have orks in your grill turn 2+. You need to plan for this, otherwise you will lose to orks.
Saying you're going to be in CC by turn 2 is like being an IG player and telling me you're going to be shooting S10 shots at me from the first turn. It might make a new player scared, everyone else is used to it.

I'm not trying to scare you. Why would I? I'm pointing out the pros and cons of the unit I'm discussing. One of the major advantages of Orks is specifically that they're fast. When you're talking about a unit with a S10 weapon or a very long charge range you mention it, even if it's an IG unit and everyone expects powerful shooting or it's an Ork unit and everyone expects a fast charge.

Point for point, Bloodletters will beat MANz. That's true. Of course, point for point Bloodletters will also beat a Bloodcrusher. I never said that NOTHING could beat MANz in CC, I said that the list was short.

Jihallah wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:
The problem is getting them there, yes. But one trukk is pretty easy to hide behind 3 or 4 battlewagons, and one trukk is hard to pick out from 14 other light vehicles. I run trukks with Reinforced Rams, so I can plow straight through terrain, and that also helps them stay out of sight until it's time to charge. The biggest problem I have isn't losing the trukks, it's making sure they have a dismounted target so they don't have to charge moving vehicles; though honestly, I have pulled off some hilarious multi-assaults against parking lots with MANz, and killing 4 vehicles in one assault phase is always good for a laugh. Not very efficient, but a lot of fun.

How is killing 4 vehicles in one assault phase with a unit of MANZ not efficient o_O

Depends on what the vehicles in question are. The game I was thinking of all four vehicles were Razorbacks full of Gray Hunters, so the MANz basically evaporated immediately afterwards from bolter and plasma fire. It still got both of us a laugh, and having the metal boxes exploded was helpful later, but I'd rather have hit the GH themselves with the charge.

A similar thing happened against Tau a few months ago, and I managed to wreck a fish, a Pirahna and a Hammerhead all at once. And the wrecks gave me cover too, which was nice. But in general MANz do tend to disappear after one assault, so I really try to make sure that they have a worthwhile target when they jump out. When my opponent's turn rolls around I want to be either locked in combat or at least have already smashed something important enough to be worth losing them all.

Jihallah wrote:

You've never rolled 1's for charges? It can happen. Doesn't happen to normal nobs.

"...if a model stopped 1" away from the enemy in the Movement or Shooting phase, it can Assault even if the unit rolls a double 1 on its difficult terrain test." Page 36


I still think "no retreat" wounds are a better way to kill monstrous creatures, though.

I love it when people argue in vain to try and prove they are right, even when they are obviously wrong. MANz have a very specific purpose, and tackling a MC certainly isnt that role at all. MANz are meant for being a sledgehammer against troops and certain HQ squads, thats pretty much it. Only if and when there is nothing left in range for them to do their job...well then I guess its ok to toss them at something they normally dont tangle with, and why not, you get lucky sometimes. I once had a unit of kans actually tie up a maxed genestealer brood for an entire game

I fully with KC Jihallah on this. You are missing some essential things:

- One MAN is more point efficient than one nob with a PK, true. But, you don't field all PK nobz in a nob unit, you field two or three. So in a unit of six nobz with three PK(which is already a lot) I pay a 50 points more than for six MANz, but for those 50 points I get WS5, a boss pole, FNP, a 5++ save, full diversification and just as many PK attacks as your MANz bomb. Sound like a bargain to me. For just 25 point more you get all that and just 8 instead of 12 PK attacks, while you will lose less nobz due to diversification and cybork.
- We are not talking about Tyrannofexes, Tervigons and Mawlocks here. If one of those pops up, charge it with boyz and wait till the nob kills it. A carnifex getting charged will kill two manz more often than not,a carnifex on the charge will probably just kill your MANz bomb. A trygon will most likely put three or four wounds ony our manz before they strike and then has a pretty high chance to simply not die and finish them off next turn. Same for the hive tyrant, even more so if he is accompanied by hive guard - if he is equipped with a bonesword it might even get really ugly. Any monstrous daemons have a pretty high chance to survive the MANz bomb due to their natural invulnerable saves, and if they do, you can count on them having killed most of your unit by the time you get to swing the second time. If you face something like a blood letter, Skarbrand or the Swarmlord, they will paste the walls with those six MANz.
-15 AV 10 vehicles are hard to stop, true. But those aren't 15 MANz missiles, only three of them. If the only thing you can toss at my big bugs or daemons are MANz, guess what three cardboard boxes will be destroyed on turn one. From then on they are walking and your opponent gets to pick their fights ,which isn't good against two armies full of armor ignoring and rending weapons and at least one monstrous creature getting to charge them. That is, if they aren't just shot to death.
- More than three MANz in a trukk are really a waste of points, and three MANz are not going to take down one of the bigger MCs by themselves.
- Even if you take down that carnifex brood, that trygon or that changer of ways, your unit still has suffered heavy casualties, which is utterly unnecessary. When I played against daemons last time, my unit of 15 lootaz blew a blood letter, a greater daemon, and a herald of tzeench on a disk off the board without sustaining a single casualty - while being cheaper than your six MANz in a trukk. And there isn't much luck involved in that result.

Personally,I use Manz all the time. And I wouldn't recommend Manz at all unless you are running the Dok. In fact straight out of the codex they are terrible. For basically the same price as a nob you don't get cybork, FNP, Bosspole, WS5. basically all the stuff that makes nobs shine. But yay you get stick bombs! oh wait. I can not stress how terrible normal manz really are. I honestly believe the mega nobs entry missed editing/proof reading/ typo/misprint/QA/Play testing/needs an errata/all the above.

Now, add cybork to the Manz, and get them some leadership/fearless and it's a different story. I really do believe that Manz are meant to be run with the Dok or not at all. Cyborked manz in a trukk with ghazz/dok/warboss attached for leadership is an entirely different story. Take 5 lightning claw termies and have them assault 5 meganobs in your garage. The meganobs have no chance. Now take 5 LC termies charge 5 cyborked manz. Wow whats that? It's usually a tie, sometimes Manz win even when they get charged. If the Manz charge, they win almost every time.

5 Cyborked manz w Ghaz - This is not a unit-it's an army. 5 Cyborked Manz w/ warboss, still very killy. 5 Cyborked manz w Dok, is my least favorite because Dok is t4(I think Dok is better w choppa boyz ). Any of them should do well against any MC. If the MC takes out the Dok/warboss first round, you still have 5 Manz swinging.

Again though, wo the cybork I would not bring a single Manz.

I love my MaNz, myself. But I use them oddly. Either they'll be in my Klawagon (CC Battlewagon) taking potshots out the firing ports and slashing things on the Boardin' Plank, or I'll run them on foot, and plop them in some nice area terrain. They're actually pretty decent shots- add in a Skorcha and a Rokkit and you've got some utility- but I just use them to deny an area of the board- because, pretty much unless they're hit with LC Termies (and who runs a full unit of those?) they will either kill or severely weaken any unit that gets too close- if they assault, well, hope they've got assault grenades, cause I'm in terrain. If they just get too close, I can assault them out of the cover, exactly as if there was none. If they stay back, I can shoot them with what are, effectively, TL Stormbolters. They've got the Cover save to make up for any AP2 or 1 shooting, and armour for the rest of it.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

You've never rolled 1's for charges? It can happen. Doesn't happen to normal nobs.

You've only got a 1/36 chance of rolling snake eyes on your SnP movement for assault; it's happened to me a few times, but it doesn't happen often. Most of the time I get at least a 3 or 4, and I usually have movement to spare.

Flavius Infernus wrote: "...if a model stopped 1" away from the enemy in the Movement or Shooting phase, it can Assault even if the unit rolls a double 1 on its difficult terrain test." Page 36

So you're always within 1" so it doesn't matter? Your trukk doesn't get blown and you need to walk? your always within 3-4" of your target, since your opponent is going to remain static and not going to move away from you? My point is other orks don't have to worry about this problem. Its not a "this unit is crap!" problem. It's not a unit-breaking problem. When you really need that charge and you don't get it, suddenly your PK's aren't swinging and your MANZ are sitting in front of an enemy unit waiting for something to run up and slap them.

Grots R OP wrote: Personally,I use Manz all the time. And I wouldn't recommend Manz at all unless you are running the Dok. In fact straight out of the codex they are terrible. For basically the same price as a nob you don't get cybork, FNP, Bosspole, WS5. basically all the stuff that makes nobs shine. But yay you get stick bombs! oh wait. I can not stress how terrible normal manz really are. I honestly believe the mega nobs entry missed editing/proof reading/ typo/misprint/QA/Play testing/needs an errata/all the above.

Now, add cybork to the Manz, and get them some leadership/fearless and it's a different story. I really do believe that Manz are meant to be run with the Dok or not at all. Cyborked manz in a trukk with ghazz/dok/warboss attached for leadership is an entirely different story. Take 5 lightning claw termies and have them assault 5 meganobs in your garage. The meganobs have no chance. Now take 5 LC termies charge 5 cyborked manz. Wow whats that? It's usually a tie, sometimes Manz win even when they get charged. If the Manz charge, they win almost every time.

Again though, wo the cybork I would not bring a single Manz.

...Have you been reading this thread? MANZ missiles are quite a good unit.

Grots R OP wrote:
5 Cyborked manz w Ghaz - This is not a unit-it's an army. 5 Cyborked Manz w/ warboss, still very killy. 5 Cyborked manz w Dok, is my least favorite because Dok is t4(I think Dok is better w choppa boyz ). Any of them should do well against any MC. If the MC takes out the Dok/warboss first round, you still have 5 Manz swinging.

*lash*
*vindicator shell*



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Anvildude wrote:I love my MaNz, myself. But I use them oddly. Either they'll be in my Klawagon (CC Battlewagon) taking potshots out the firing ports and slashing things on the Boardin' Plank, or I'll run them on foot, and plop them in some nice area terrain. They're actually pretty decent shots- add in a Skorcha and a Rokkit and you've got some utility- but I just use them to deny an area of the board- because, pretty much unless they're hit with LC Termies (and who runs a full unit of those?) they will either kill or severely weaken any unit that gets too close- if they assault, well, hope they've got assault grenades, cause I'm in terrain. If they just get too close, I can assault them out of the cover, exactly as if there was none. If they stay back, I can shoot them with what are, effectively, TL Stormbolters. They've got the Cover save to make up for any AP2 or 1 shooting, and armour for the rest of it.

TL stormbolters on BS2. And they ain't twinlinked if your adding skorchaz and rokkits. That's a fair chunk of points to deny an area of the board, especially on something that can have rings run around it by things like eldar.
And whilst many people will not run LC termies these days, I do enjoy bloodletters

Jihallah wrote:
So you're always within 1" so it doesn't matter? Your trukk doesn't get blown and you need to walk? your always within 3-4" of your target, since your opponent is going to remain static and not going to move away from you? My point is other orks don't have to worry about this problem. Its not a "this unit is crap!" problem. It's not a unit-breaking problem. When you really need that charge and you don't get it, suddenly your PK's aren't swinging and your MANZ are sitting in front of an enemy unit waiting for something to run up and slap them.

The rest of those two paragraphs that you didn't quote answered this quite well.

BeRzErKeR wrote:You've only got a 1/36 chance of rolling snake eyes on your SnP movement for assault; it's happened to me a few times, but it doesn't happen often. Most of the time I get at least a 3 or 4, and I usually have movement to spare. If the point you're making is that MANz usually have a shorter charge range than other Orks, that's true, but they still have a pretty long charge range out of a trukk, and I have to compensate for the same problem all the time anyway because I almost always run Ghazghkull. As long as I start the turn with the MANz trukk within 23" of the target, I can Waaagh! and guarantee I'll get into assault. Not that many other units have that kind of assault distance. After that, yes, they're slow, but so long as you got one really good charge off that's ok.

In addition, it's not an expensive unit; 3-5 MANz in a trukk, 170-250 points. If it gets blown before they get there, ok, they'll hoof it forwards as best they can and act as a net to discourage things from trying to get around behind the rest of the army, or move to my objective and hunker down on it if that looks more valuable, or just take out whatever's nearby, even if it's a transport. It's a disappointment, yes, but not crippling. MANz are a throwaway unit, not a core to build an army around, that's why I call them bombs.

It's not a serious problem. Ghazghkull makes it practically a non-issue; the number of times when I would have been in assault distance if I had rolled higher for SnP in the assault phase, I can count on my fingers. Maybe on one hand, though I might be forgetting a couple instances. Either the trukk gets blown before I get two moves and they're usually too far away for it to make a difference, or it doesn't get blown until after my second move, and they're too close for it to make a difference.

Furthermore, even on those occasions when they have ended up "sitting in front of an enemy unit waiting for something to run up and slap them", I've usually been pretty ok with the situation. Most armies are still going to have to dump a lot of shooting into a few models to kill them; only IG can really shoot them to death without wasting a big fraction of their firepower doing so. If some big, nasty CC unit charges them, most of the time they'll at least leave a few PK-marks on whatever it is; and those times when it's killy enough to wipe them out before they get to strike, it ends up sitting there with no cover, in front of the whole rest of the army. Yes, it'd be better if I'd gotten the charge; no, it's not something I spend a lot of time and effort worrying about. I lose plenty of games, but I generally lose them because I screwed up something else, not because my MANz are SnP. When I really need the charge and don't get it, it's not SnP that stops me 95% of the time.

Grots R OP wrote: Personally,I use Manz all the time. And I wouldn't recommend Manz at all unless you are running the Dok. In fact straight out of the codex they are terrible. For basically the same price as a nob you don't get cybork, FNP, Bosspole, WS5. basically all the stuff that makes nobs shine. But yay you get stick bombs! oh wait. I can not stress how terrible normal manz really are. I honestly believe the mega nobs entry missed editing/proof reading/ typo/misprint/QA/Play testing/needs an errata/all the above.

Now, add cybork to the Manz, and get them some leadership/fearless and it's a different story. I really do believe that Manz are meant to be run with the Dok or not at all. Cyborked manz in a trukk with ghazz/dok/warboss attached for leadership is an entirely different story. Take 5 lightning claw termies and have them assault 5 meganobs in your garage. The meganobs have no chance. Now take 5 LC termies charge 5 cyborked manz. Wow whats that? It's usually a tie, sometimes Manz win even when they get charged. If the Manz charge, they win almost every time.

Again though, wo the cybork I would not bring a single Manz.

...Have you been reading this thread? MANZ missiles are quite a good unit.

yes and I have to disagree that 3 manz in a trukk is a good unit. If someone here has a good experience with them, I would like to hear it. I might be using that unit incorrectly, but it just seems that they have limited targets.

Grots R OP wrote:
5 Cyborked manz w Ghaz - This is not a unit-it's an army. 5 Cyborked Manz w/ warboss, still very killy. 5 Cyborked manz w Dok, is my least favorite because Dok is t4(I think Dok is better w choppa boyz ). Any of them should do well against any MC. If the MC takes out the Dok/warboss first round, you still have 5 Manz swinging.

*lash*
*vindicator shell*

Vindicator shell I am not familiar with(new player), but lash is annoying to anyone. Wasn't saying there's no decent counter to it, just saying in the context of fighting an MC it will get it done. I admittedly have not put those units against a bloodthirster or some of the tougher nids, but against lesser demon, dreadknight, wraithlord, those big dung beetles from necrons that poop scarabs, 5 manz will win in one round of combat in my experience. I usually lose 0-1 manz on his initiative(mine are cyborked), and then the 4 remaining will generally wipe any of those units in one turn. 3 manz not cyborked can't do that, but I think what you are getting at jihallah is that you use your manz differently or prioritize their targets differently. I just personally don't like Manz wo a BP and cybork, I think you are better off just running regular nobs like jidmah is saying.

XC18 wrote:So, when all is said and done : finally we can conclude that ANY units in the ork codex can be used against MC.

grots dont work very well, but for the points...

Grots R OP wrote:Vindicator shell I am not familiar with(new player), but lash is annoying to anyone. Wasn't saying there's no decent counter to it, just saying in the context of fighting an MC it will get it done. I admittedly have not put those units against a bloodthirster or some of the tougher nids, but against lesser demon, dreadknight, wraithlord, those big dung beetles from necrons that poop scarabs, 5 manz will win in one round of combat in my experience. I usually lose 0-1 manz on his initiative(mine are cyborked), and then the 4 remaining will generally wipe any of those units in one turn. 3 manz not cyborked can't do that, but I think what you are getting at jihallah is that you use your manz differently or prioritize their targets differently. I just personally don't like Manz wo a BP and cybork, I think you are better off just running regular nobs like jidmah is saying.

A vindicator fires an S10 AP2 large blast. In this case used in combination with lash princes to bunch your models to maximize hits.

The point of MANz missiles is to get more trukks. Three MANz in a trukk are about the same point costs a trukk boyz and should be used in the same way - as half a unit, needing support by another half unit (trukk boyz or more MANz).

1 word "old zogwort's curse"

Awww look at the cute squig who thinks he's a demon prince ^_^

Just remember though, that Zogworts curse only works on IC, so make sure what your using it on, actually IS classified as such.

Daemons DP's for exampke, are immune

So are a depressing number of potent SC's

Are any MCs independent characters at all?

Just checked the Tyranid dex, and nope, not a single one is


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Trust me guys, the easiest way for Orks to hammer on MC is rokkits a-plenty. You strip their wounds off like butter, its one of the many reasons I spam rokkits in my builds, they are effective against every single army out there. Weather its popping transports or stripping wounds off MC and their like, or just ignoring armor saves, they do it all, and the very few things they DONT work on, you can just swarm with boyz

A bit late to this convo, but I have to agree with rokkits. Lootas can work, but the fact that rokkits generally wound on 3's and deny armour is fantastic.

I currently run four grot tanks with a kommanda, so five rokkits in total. I'm generally looking for ways to get more into my army, including replacing the special weapons in my Shoota squads with rokkits launchas, and possibly tossing in Rokkit Launchas into my Slugga boy units. Busy building up a unit of kit-bashed Tankbustas to toss into my battlewagon as well.

Walkers suffer terribly, due to the 2D6 pen roll MC have against them, and the MC will be hitting first.

MANZ hit last, and get no armour save, so it would be, in my opinion, an undesirable point sink.

The Deffrolla can work, but again you have trouble with armour saves, AND the MC can then hit your Wagon, which I'd definitely try quite hard to avoid.

If in dire striates, larger units of boyz can tarpit an MC so that the PK Nob can get his hits in. It can tie the MC down, but I'm unsure how ideal this situation is.

One thing, rokkits generally wound on 2s, not 3s, they are str8, and most MC are T6

But I pretty much agree with you on the rest. Boyz mobs on a MC does work, just be prepared for the chance of taking fearless wounds, but granted, 9 times out of 10, a boyz mob will smoke a single MC

Ah, thanks, yeah. I suppose my battle against two Talos Pain Engine's yesterday got stuck in my head somewhat

KingCracker wrote:One thing, rokkits generally wound on 2s, not 3s, they are str8, and most MC are T6

But I pretty much agree with you on the rest. Boyz mobs on a MC does work, just be prepared for the chance of taking fearless wounds, but granted, 9 times out of 10, a boyz mob will smoke a single MC

rokkit launchas, Kannons and deff gunz are the best way to trim down a Tyranid MC before it reaches your lines. Ideally you won't be killing them less you have good accuracy/luck and of course numbers help with that. The best compromise is boyz with rokkits +PK and kannons personally in my experience. But then again my rule of thumb is if the army is almost as good or better than orks in CC then we need to make them chew on bullets before fighting them and winning the day.

Dakka is an important aspect of the orks never forget that.

I run shoota mobs of 20, so normally Ive got between 2 (in small gameS) and 4 in average games, and they all have 2 rokkits each unit. I run rokkit buggies like a mofo, typically I run 9, but in small games Ill make it 6. I never have problems with not having enough rokkits. My rokkits are everywhere, and every unit I have, has a chance of popping a transport. Im also a fan of Lootas

So my typical build, is very shooty to begin with, regardless of what Im facing, they are eating lead or rokkits or both.....and they still have the privilege of facing my horde in CC