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So yesterday I played with a bunch of friends in a ludicrously fun 2v2v2. I was playing my Thousand Suns cult list and I happened to be facing off against a Genestealer-heavy nid list and I was sort of near a tank heavy (like 6 lemun russ variants and 2 basilisks) IG list. I held off the IG with a pair of vindicators and then had to sustain a whole lot of Genestealers/Umgarls in close combat. Long story short, my Thousand Sons destroyed his 'stealers and my deepstriking Demon Prince gave his Hive Tyrant the Gift of Chaos.

After the game, my buddy went on a rant about how the worst cc cult troops just rolled one of the best cc units in his dex. this went into a discussion about whether his dex was the worst left in 5th ed. Basically his points were thus: the Hive Tyrant is one of the worst HQs in the game, tyranids are horrific against the current transport meta, and they got hit with the nerf bat HARD (see the carnifex/lictor/Hive Tyrant). I'm inclined to agree with him, as our club has 2 nid players (stealer heavy outflank army, and trigon+doom-based deepstrike list) and neither can do better than a draw usually.

So what do ya'll think? Are nids the worst 5th ed dex?

I don't think Nids are the worst 5th ed dex. I play them myself and I win games with them. I think it depends on the player too.

It looks like he just had some bad luck with his stealers, as they should shred everything they come into contact with.
About his comments about transport meta, I think nids have some good answers to them, usually hive guard, tyrannofexes or some other (cc) method.

I wouldn't call them the worst, at least not by my standards.

Any monstrous creature gets 2D6+S for armor peh, So really it sounds like the list he is playing against (armor line) more than anything else.

They are one of the weaker codices at the moment, due to a number of things.

Although his genestealers losing combat to rubric marines... doesn't surprise me at all. Thousand Sons take away genestealer's rending with their universal invuln save. They're also fearless, if I'm not mistaken. Throw in the aspiring sorcerer with his force weapon, and you've got a unit that can survive a few hits and then hit back and make 'em stick.

Overpriced though they are, Thousand Sons are a very deadly unit when used well. Even in close combat, they can tank hits while the sorcerer does some damage.

It sounds like your friend was having a hissyfit though. Yeah, nids aren't top tier at the moment. They're also not so bad that taking them to a fight is an auto-lose. There are plenty of capable Tyranid generals out there. If he doesn't like Hive Tyrants, he can take Tyranid Primes, or Tervigons. Take Trygons instead of Carnifexes. Try out some Hive Guard, or Tyrannofexes.

They are considered bad because the old players nidzilla spam isn't viable anymore.

A codex IMHO is defined by the number of viable builds it can play with.

How many viable builds can the 'nid codex delivery today?

I think it would be tremendously constructive to the conversation if people who don't think that Tyranids are the weakest 5E codex could state which 5E they think is the weakest.

Unless you're one of those people who like to give "sunshine and lolipop" answers, like "there is no weakest codex it's all about how you play them!", in which case... stay in your corner.

Worst fifth edition codex? Yes...yes it is. Is it a bad codex? No, not really. It's not nearly as good as it could/should be due to a few factors, but there is still a lot of life in the dex.

"Although his genestealers losing combat to rubric marines... doesn't surprise me at all. Thousand Sons take away genestealer's rending with their universal invuln save. They're also fearless, if I'm not mistaken. Throw in the aspiring sorcerer with his force weapon, and you've got a unit that can survive a few hits and then hit back and make 'em stick.

Overpriced though they are, Thousand Sons are a very deadly unit when used well. Even in close combat, they can tank hits while the sorcerer does some damage. "

This also entered into the discussion and I agree (everyone writes off thousand sons but they have some advantages). As to the transport meta, isn't one of the big issues that even if you pop the transport (nearly a guarantee with 2d6+S), the troops inside still get to shoot and then assault?

That's why I suggested some of the Tyranid's ranged units. Hive Guard and Tyrannofexes.

Tyrannofexes in particular. They can pop a transport, and then assault the contents. Even if they don't have any of the fancy close combat weapons, it's still a monstrous creature that wounds marines on a 2+ and ignores armor.

I'll agree that Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes are bad. They're really bad in the current transport meta. That's why you take other things.

They are comparatively bad. The other codexes have more bang-for-their-buck. So whilst I am not saying the 5ed nid dex is overpriced, other armies get to field more.

In addition, a lot of the newer codexes brought along some really anti-nid weaponary. Nemesis Force weapons & splinter cannons to name the worst.

I think the main trouble of nids is;
1) Current Instant death rules
2) Speed of the army, as compared to any other mechanised build
3) Shooting. Vulnerability to 100% of firepower (my mech guard laugh @ splinter weaponary) and paltry shooting.

Ixidor13 wrote:Long story short, my Thousand Sons destroyed his 'stealers and my deepstriking Demon Prince gave his Hive Tyrant the Gift of Chaos.

Firstly, you gifted a hive tyrant?

HIGHFIVE!!!

Secondly, people deeply underestimate 1ksons. That he had more problems than he would have liked has at least as much to do with his attitude towards your army than anything else. Of course, you also could have gotten very lucky or he could have flubbed his rolls. Without knowing more, we can only speculate.

As for if tyranid is the worst codex, I'd say no. That title probably goes to sisters, mostly because...

labmouse42 wrote:A codex IMHO is defined by the number of viable builds it can play with.

I agree with this definition of codex aging. With nids, there are still a few ways you can play them. With Sisters or tau, not so much. There have also been codices created old out of the gate. I mean, DE just got a new codex, and I still only ever see slight variations on the same skimmer spam list.

I'd be much more willing to believe that he put together a crappy list, or that there was some luck imbalance than to believe that his particular experience here is a sign that the codex itself is broken.

I think you guys are forgetting the point of tyranids. I played a guy who used spore pods to hold up my units in combat while his main army advanced, whilst his tervigon nommed my tank. Its not also just about the commanding general, its about the opponent.

I don't think nids are that bad, its just that you really have to only use the couple of good units that are in the book, and even then they are average.

I played against a guy who had two Tervigons, 9 Zoa's, and 150 bloody Hormaguants. I just couldn't beat it. My Battlewagon alone was gibbing entire units of 30 per turn, but there were just too many

Anyway, saying they are the worst "5th edition" codex may be misleading, since you have all those 4th and even 3rd edition codices that are having tough times due to age, if nothing else. I think Chaos Space Marines may actually be the ones who are the worst off, ironically.

Tyranids have a tremendously hard time against Dark Eldar, and Grey Knights can be a really hard ball to break through.The latter is tough since Grey Knights are obscenely popular at the moment (or, rather, will be until the next space marine codex hits).

Past that, there are solutions to many of the matchups. I don't think they have any other tough racial matchups, and they seem to have tools to deal with the general situations one needs - anti-MEQ, anti-horde, light AV, and heavy AV.

It's very easy to fall into "rumours" that ones codex is "the weakest" as a justification for ones own failure.

I'm personally far more interested to see how the codex starts to function when we see what 6th edition actually does entail.

If you could pod a trio of Carnifexes, I suspect they might see more use.

Sisters of Battle, anyone?

Sure, they are the worst. They can not deal with mech and transport effectively. 9 Hiveguards may be ok but killing transports in cc is not really an option.
The enemy might to be prepared for 'nids as they are so different and footslogging armies are making a slow come back which is slighty in the 'nids favour but no they are just not suitable for 5th edition rules.

The only other contenders for weaker armies would be SoB if they count, weak vanilla marines builds, weird IG builds and DE when they get unlucky which does sometimes happen.

I think 'nids are the worst 5th ed codex. But when you're comparing it to GK, BA, IG....that's not saying much. They are still a very good army in my opinion. They hold their own against pretty much anything if you know how to use them.

Also, Thousand Sons are awesome. People just don't like em because it's all "Khorne Berzerkers this" and "Plague Marines that."

"Also, Thousand Sons are awesome. People just don't like em because it's all "Khorne Berzerkers this" and "Plague Marines that."

You sir, are an awesome person whom I agree with. As to whether he rolled poorly and I well, I can say we both rolled about average over the course of the game. It just came down to his genestealers popping my transports and then failing against the T-Sons inside.

This, I think, is his issue:

"I think 'nids are the worst 5th ed codex. But when you're comparing it to GK, BA, IG....that's not saying much. They are still a very good army in my opinion. They hold their own against pretty much anything if you know how to use them."

He is rather competent, but some of the new stuff is way good.

I think the main problem facing nids right now is lack of grenades on all but 2-3 units in the book.
That and only 2-3 invul saves in the book, one being CC-only, and synapse being so easy to kill...

Losing to a 150 hormagaunt list? They can't hurt you in your trucks. Kill the synapse then laugh at the 800 useless points (unupgraded).

Nids aren't useless overall, they're just not fire and forget like lots of other codexes right now.

Calling Tyranids the worst list is just not accurate. They are hard hit by some of the newer codexes. I'll not argue that. But so are Eldar, Orks, Tau, Sisters ( one bad remake ), Deamons and Chaos SM. They can compete with a decent list and a competent general. You need to think when playing Nids though. They are not auto play like GK. They are not a fully mechanized IG force - they require practice and still they have bad match ups - we know that. But the worst? They are a decent second tier army.

A genestealer list is just not that good. A squad of Stealers is fine backed up by other troops. But stealer shock has not worked in awhile. I would rather attack T-Sons with 20 poisoned gants. Or a lashwhip squad or ... you have to use the right tools for the job at hand.

Hey all, Nid player in question here. I've been playing nids since 3rd ed. Most of my nerd rage isn't that all nids are terrible (they aren't). It's just that I see nids as the biggest example of what went wrong at GW sometime between 4th and 5th ed- they seemed to stop caring about the hobby and the players that play it, instead only much moneys they could bring in. The biggest example of this is how almost every single unit the nids could field in 4th ed (and certainly everything good) got hit so hard with the nerf bat by Cruddace that, as mentioned above, it's nearly impossible to make a competitive list without taking 100s of dollars worth of new models/units that didn't even exist (tyrannofex, tervigon, hive guard) or were Apoc-only and should have remained that way (trygon). Now look, I can understand why GW wants to make new models good, otherwise no one would buy any (lol pyrovore) but that's no reason to cripple the rest of the dex. I also submit that nids took the change from 4th ed to 5th ed harder than any other army with the POSSIBLE exception of Eldar.

Texan_tyrant wrote:Hey all, Nid player in question here. I've been playing nids since 3rd ed. Most of my nerd rage isn't that all nids are terrible (they aren't). It's just that I see nids as the biggest example of what went wrong at GW sometime between 4th and 5th ed- they seemed to stop caring about the hobby and the players that play it, instead only much moneys they could bring in. The biggest example of this is how almost every single unit the nids could field in 4th ed (and certainly everything good) got hit so hard with the nerf bat by Cruddace that, as mentioned above, it's nearly impossible to make a competitive list without taking 100s of dollars worth of new models/units that didn't even exist (tyrannofex, tervigon, hive guard) or were Apoc-only and should have remained that way (trygon). Now look, I can understand why GW wants to make new models good, otherwise no one would buy any (lol pyrovore) but that's no reason to cripple the rest of the dex. I also submit that nids took the change from 4th ed to 5th ed harder than any other army with the POSSIBLE exception of Eldar.

I agree with you here. I played lots of warriors, Ravenors, and spinefist gaunts in 4th edition... and sold my army rather than spend hundreds of dollars to update it with the new must haves. There really was no reason to nerf-bat spinefists other than wanting people to go buy a bunch of new gaunts. Shame.

-Myst

Just to clarify, when I say worst of the 5th edition dexes, I mean those dexes written after the release of 5th edition BRB (I also don't count SoB as a WD update is more of a "sit down and shut up for a bit" move rather than an honest attempt at making a viable new codex). I think there are plenty of dexes that are worse off, but they were all written prior to 5th.

Maybe vanilla marines are in a worse position, but not by much. They don't really have the flat out hard counters that the nids do.

Like I said before though, it doesn't mean they aren't viable, it just takes better play to get them to work well.

Tyranids have problems dealing with good shooting and MEQ close combat.

Against a reasonably average troop like a Guardsman, Eldar, or Dark Eldar, the average Tyranid CC unit will have a solid chance, either through numbers or being slightly higher quality. They can even take average units with their shooting if they get close enough to use it.

The problem occurs is that the generic troops don't seem to show up that often.

Against heavy vehicles and power armor, Tyranids are woefully under-equipped. I know this very well, as the armies I play against are Guard, Blood Angels, Chaos Marines, Space Wolves, and generic Marines. I have a really tough time winning any games. The only reliable anti-tank at range is the Tyrannofex. Everything else requires you to close to danger close range to be effective. Unless you pod a Zoanthrope, it sure as hell will never make an impact.

That might be the biggest problem with Nids. They are completely predictable. There isn't really a quality surprise you can throw at an opponent to catch them off guard. If you have Zoanthropes, they will be in a pod. Got a Trygon? It will be deep striking. Genestealers? They will be outflanking. No mystery.

Solution? USE THE OTHER UNITS IN THE CODEX!

Seriously. Pod a couple pyrovores right next to something reasonably gribbly. It actually works. Use a brood of biovores. S4 AP4 pie plates are really useful against anybody, simply for number of hits.

Another thing I have found: Keep you Mycetic Spores CHEAP. Don't put blast weapons on them. It is way too easy to drift back on yourself, since you will be firing at short ranges.

That's my $0.02. And these ideas work, as long as your dice don't hate your Tyrannofex, like mine do.

Tyranids are a fine army, their only real problem is that they pretty much auto lose to dark eldar. Another problem is that there are a lot of terrible choices in the book, lictors, pyrovores, rippers etc... There are only a handful of good units, and the army relies on them to carry it.

The thing I enjoy about tyranids is that they are a tactical army much more than a beat stick. They rely more heavily on unit synergies than any other army in 40k and require patience and understanding to work. I'd put the current tyranid book at around the same place in power level as vanilla marines, chaos marines, eldar, demons, tau, sisters of battle, dark angels and orks. To beat any of the other armies (blood angels, guard, dark eldar, space wolves, black templars and grey knights) you have to play better than your opponent.

Another requirement for tyranids is to completely and utterly understand how the assualt phase works ad the intricacies of the movements ad placements within the phase. Tyranids are an assualt army without grenades and must rely on well placed assualts and multi charges to win the battle. If you don't know this section of the rules thoroughly and know how to utilize these rules properly you will lose.

Tyranids are actually my favorite army to play, because they are actually incredibly versatile and can deal with almost all situations in different ways. I would certainly have no issues with bringing them to any GT if it wasn't for dark eldar, which admitedly is pretty much an auto loss. In fact I still bring them to GT's a lot of the time and they perform quite well.

Long story short they are a difficult army to play, and incredibly rewarding, but to win with them takes a lot of practice and mastery of not only the rules but also of the unit synergies.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Worst fifth edition codex? Yes...yes it is. Is it a bad codex? No, not really. It's not nearly as good as it could/should be due to a few factors, but there is still a lot of life in the dex.

Nids aren't bad, but they are definitely the worst 5th ed codex by far.

yermom wrote:Tyranids are a fine army, their only real problem is that they pretty much auto lose to dark eldar. Another problem is that there are a lot of terrible choices in the book, lictors, pyrovores, rippers etc... There are only a handful of good units, and the army relies on them to carry it.

The thing I enjoy about tyranids is that they are a tactical army much more than a beat stick. They rely more heavily on unit synergies than any other army in 40k and require patience and understanding to work. I'd put the current tyranid book at around the same place in power level as vanilla marines, chaos marines, eldar, demons, tau, sisters of battle, dark angels and orks. To beat any of the other armies (blood angels, guard, dark eldar, space wolves, black templars and grey knights) you have to play better than your opponent.

Another requirement for tyranids is to completely and utterly understand how the assualt phase works ad the intricacies of the movements ad placements within the phase. Tyranids are an assualt army without grenades and must rely on well placed assualts and multi charges to win the battle. If you don't know this section of the rules thoroughly and know how to utilize these rules properly you will lose.

Tyranids are actually my favorite army to play, because they are actually incredibly versatile and can deal with almost all situations in different ways. I would certainly have no issues with bringing them to any GT if it wasn't for dark eldar, which admitedly is pretty much an auto loss. In fact I still bring them to GT's a lot of the time and they perform quite well.

Long story short they are a difficult army to play, and incredibly rewarding, but to win with them takes a lot of practice and mastery of not only the rules but also of the unit synergies.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, especially with the "how the assault phase works," and I would disagree to a large extent that nids are versatile- most of their units are some of the most specialised in the game especially the stuff that used old models:
Tyrants, swarmlord and fexes do well assaulting small-unit size high-value targets with no invul save i.e. vehicles that didn't move. Against any sizeable unit, they have few enough attacks that they'll get mathhammered to death, especially against a squad that has a sgt with power weapon.

Gaunts of all sizes are probably the most fragile unit in the game, though they can do reasonable amounts of damage against GEQ, or MEQ if there's enough of them.

Zoanthropes do reasonably well against vehicles once in range (though any single warp lance has about a 20% chance (92% chance to pass psychic test, 3+ to hit, 3+ to pen, 4+ to wreck/explode) of wrecking a vehicle with 12 or higher armor (which honestly is somewhat gakky for something that almost always only gets one shot)

Lictors are useless, pyrovores are useless, the doom, aside from being got hit hard by our FAQ.

Venomthropes just scream "Shoot me" for the one turn it takes to kill them. Lictors are still lictors, and now they can't assault when they pop out and say boo.

Ymgarls are decent enough if they manage to ambush the right target, but can't be counted on to reach a second one or kill literally anything with good armor and an invul save (despite being an elite close combat unit that can't take any hits back).

Warriors, especially LW+BS warriors, hit hard and have the attacks to make it work, but multi-wound T4 4+ save models just beg to be shot with S8+ weapons, especially templates.

Regular stealers, more than anything else in the dex and possibly in the hobby, took the loss of sweeping advance and the rending nerf terribly, terribly hard. Rippers are still rippers.

Raveners: see Warriors, but add a complete dependence on synapse now due to Ld6. Gargoyles may just be victims of my prejudice against them due to their previous embarrassingly high $/model cost. I have yet to play a 5th ed game in which anything the biovores could hurt starts on the table.

Now, I know the solution many of you will offer is simply "buy the new models." As I explained above, while adding good new gak is fine, and at times even good, essentially forcing me to replace most/all of my army is the type of bs you SHOULD NOT just accept from GW. Rules updates/book changes should force you to adapt your playstyle, not purchase an entire new army.

I gotta agree with the Texan Tyrant here. I have played against him for the last 2 years with like 4 different codices (old GK, new GK, SM, CSM) and fought him alongside others in Apoc games (IG, Eldar, old Necrons), and the tyranids seem to be rather limited unless one buys into a whole slew of new monstrous creatures. And even then you run into their astonishing lack of Invul saves. Vulkan and his squad for instance, dropped a Trigon, a Mawloc, and a winged Hive Tyrant (different nid player) in 3 SUCCESSIVE turns.