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-666- wrote:Yrable = Yrmgal

I'm thinking. : )

Close. it's Ymgarl.

And yeah, nids at 1000 with Tervigon spam can be ok. At 1500+ they become not so great. And I agree... that list isn't very scary. There are 4 hive guard and 1 Trygon that are actually scary. Everything else is going to be fun to kill. I don't know why people are having a hard time with "everything surrounded by gants". There is only 1 unit of gants... with the ability to make 2 more units per turn... maybe... at an average size of 10 models per brood... that are wounded on 3+ and get no save from bolters... What armies are people playing that they can't stop 10-man units of gants? That would be truly fun to play in a KP scenario though. Knock out a couple of hive guard on turn one and sit back and wait for the nids to decide they are going to have to cross the board or lose.

-Myst

Yeah, I feel like nids get worse and worse the higher the points get. Other armies just get to take too much armor and transports for them to handle. I dunno, there may be a point where the curve goes back towards the nids where there are just too many to stop.

What do ya'll think?

Not in a normal FoC.

What do you mean? With marines and guard you are able to armor up A LOT of your FoC.

Ixidor13 wrote:What do you mean? With marines and guard you are able to armor up A LOT of your FoC.

Right. In a normal FoC numbers won't swing the advantage back towards Nids.
180 gants, 2 Tervigons, 90 gargs, 9 carnifexes... That's a lot of bodies but at right around 4k points they'd get stomped into the ground.
I'm not saying that's the best 4k list, but it shows that numbers won't win. An equal amount of points will obliterate Nids that high up (unless you allow Gargantuan Creatures... Cause there are some good ones)

Oh okay sorry, now I get it. Yeah, I have only played against them, never played them. I thought there may be a point when the numbers game could win it.

Hmm.. Would TMC spam be effective the higher the points get?

Ixidor13 wrote:Oh okay sorry, now I get it. Yeah, I have only played against them, never played them. I thought there may be a point when the numbers game could win it.

Hmm.. Would TMC spam be effective the higher the points get?

I would have to give a firm no on that one, for a couple of reasons.

1: TMCs are basically the nid answer/equivalent to vehicles. Where many if not most armies can have a vehicle (or more if guard) for pretty much every FO slot in truly high point games, nids are pretty much limited to 8 unless someone is feeling stupid with their FA slots, or somehow thought fex squads were good: 2 HQs, 3 Tervigons in troops, and 3 HS. In higher point games, nids just get out-heavied.

2: Ability to deal with heavy threats (especially at long range) tends to increase above linearly to points cost for most armies. At lower points cost, weapons that can reliably take out vehicles (or TMCs) are often hard to come by, in terms of both pure points and squeezing in that entire extra force O slot. At higher points cost, players can chuck on those upgrade meltas (or similar, you get the point) with abandon. Just a general rule from what I've seen during my years of playing, but smaller games tend to take place at a shorter range, which favors nids in most every case.

While I'm not going to argue they are great, they are capable of some effective builds. A guy I play with frequently runs 3 Tervigons, 3 Trygons, and 9 Hive Guard along with groups of outflanking stealers. I've had some really tough losses against that list. Granted I would rate him as an above average player who really knows his list.

In the end I think Tyranids are the worst 5th ed dex. But far from the worst dex. As has been said many times I would rate Sisters, Tau, CSM, Demons, and possibly Eldar all below the Tyranid dex

Ixidor13 wrote:So yesterday I played with a bunch of friends in a ludicrously fun 2v2v2. I was playing my Thousand Suns cult list and I happened to be facing off against a Genestealer-heavy nid list and I was sort of near a tank heavy (like 6 lemun russ variants and 2 basilisks) IG list. I held off the IG with a pair of vindicators and then had to sustain a whole lot of Genestealers/Umgarls in close combat. Long story short, my Thousand Sons destroyed his 'stealers and my deepstriking Demon Prince gave his Hive Tyrant the Gift of Chaos.

After the game, my buddy went on a rant about how the worst cc cult troops just rolled one of the best cc units in his dex. this went into a discussion about whether his dex was the worst left in 5th ed. Basically his points were thus: the Hive Tyrant is one of the worst HQs in the game, tyranids are horrific against the current transport meta, and they got hit with the nerf bat HARD (see the carnifex/lictor/Hive Tyrant). I'm inclined to agree with him, as our club has 2 nid players (stealer heavy outflank army, and trigon+doom-based deepstrike list) and neither can do better than a draw usually.

So what do ya'll think? Are nids the worst 5th ed dex?

One of the first things that comes to mind, when the question rises: "Is the 5th Tyranid Codex the worst 'dex" is the impact the newer codices has had on these guys. The Codex ITSELF, I do not consider to be THAT horrible! But the 'Nids DOES suffer from being vulnerable to other codices/lists. While they don't offer a 72" twin-linked railgun, they have still got tools at their disposal that makes up for that. The trouble the the 'Nids is wrapping your head around them, and making up for their vulnerabilities with good synergy.

Billinator wrote:making up for their vulnerabilities with good synergy.

I'm beginning to hate that phrase. Maybe because I work in IT and I'm tired of it as a marketing term.

Tyranids are not the only codex where units work together to get more powerful. They seem like the only codex that you *must* work together to become average (compared to the other top codexes). They also seem like the only codex where if you screw up and mis-estimate an assault, don't roll high enough on MTC, fail a few cover saves - you lose. Because of that Synergy, if one unit in the chain dies, the whole thing falls apart. Venomthropes give everyone cover saves, so you need a couple units of them (for redundancy) and when they're wiped out (because they only have a 4+ cover save and 2 un-shenaniganed (tm) wounds each - so 12 wounds to kill the unit which doesn't take much at all - and that's if you're taking 2 units of 3 each) the TMCs are back out in the open and your other units are hugging trees.

Instead of bringing up other examples, I'll just say that I'm annoyed that one of the scary CC units (genestealers) is completely overshadowed by recent codexes.

Synapse is fluffy but hinders as much as it helps.
Tervigons bestowing TS/AG to gant units within range is cool - until the 'gon explodes and kills said gants. With a 3+ save it can be krak missiled to death pretty easily, let alone lascannoned.


Maybe I'm just grouchy today.

rigeld2 wrote:

Ixidor13 wrote:What do you mean? With marines and guard you are able to armor up A LOT of your FoC.

Right. In a normal FoC numbers won't swing the advantage back towards Nids.
180 gants, 2 Tervigons, 90 gargs, 9 carnifexes... That's a lot of bodies but at right around 4k points they'd get stomped into the ground.
I'm not saying that's the best 4k list, but it shows that numbers won't win. An equal amount of points will obliterate Nids that high up (unless you allow Gargantuan Creatures... Cause there are some good ones)

You forgot the 30 ymgral stealers.

I don't know about the worst. Nids just took tourney champion in KingdomCon which is supposed to be a very competitive GT. Maybe it depends on the player and not just the dex?

Cpt Stubbs wrote:I don't know about the worst. Nids just took tourney champion in KingdomCon which is supposed to be a very competitive GT. Maybe it depends on the player and not just the dex?

You're right. It's not *just* the dex.

As I said - if you make a mistake as a Tyranid player, the game just got a LOT tougher.
If you make a mistake using some of the other 5th ed codexes, it's a lot easier to recover.

edit: didn't need to be said, sorry if you saw it.

"As I said - if you make a mistake as a Tyranid player, the game just got a LOT tougher. If you make a mistake using some of the other 5th ed codexes, it's a lot easier to recover."

This is by far their biggest issue. The codex just doesn't have enough viable builds to compete with the newer dexes. Sure you can win and win hard, but you HAVE to outplay your opponent, sure it's not Tau but the requirement is still there. I feel that with some of the newer dexes this is not necessarily the case.

Honestly the 'Nids aint terrible and deffinatly the worst Dex this edition, it just depends on how well the other player is suited up to take on the bugs. i personally think they did get slightly worsened from 4th - 5th but i think some parts of it is still pretty good. They got the Doom of malantai which is a scary bugger against low leadership high number squads, but they have been let down in ways such as a Warrior squad that takes a mycetic spore cannot include a 'Nid prime which is kinda bad in my opinion as it makes no sense why not but all in all i think it can be said to have gotten a little worse but not the definitive worse.

"They got the Doom of malantai which is a scary bugger against low leadership high number squads"

As Texan_Tyrant will tell you, the doom blows in the current meta. Based on the FAQ-hammer, he can no longer affect models in transports. And due to the proliferation of transports, his utility is sharply curbed.

Also too, he is T4 with no Eternal Warrior -_________- So he is an easy target for instakilling weapons.

Tyranids aren't the worst, but they definitely struggle.

Not only are some of our "scary" TMCs hilariously overcosted (160 pts. for a Carnifex, lol), but we can't really even do a hoard list effectively; Stealer Shock fails large numbers of tanks, and Tervigon spam isn't much better.

As said before, we really have to rely on what little synergy we have left after multiple FAQ nerfs; I use Venomthropes personally, with Trygons, Tervigons, and Raveners, but Old Adversary Tyrants can be effective also.

As long as you remember that the Spore Cloud was also nerfed.

Yeah, remind me how that got nerfed? Something about it not counting as dangerous terrain even though it says in the rules that it counts as dangerous terrain?

odorofdeath wrote:Yeah, remind me how that got nerfed? Something about it not counting as dangerous terrain even though it says in the rules that it counts as dangerous terrain?

Models assaulting into the cloud (or a unit in the cloud) still take the dangerous terrain test, but their initiative is not reduced to 1.

"Models assaulting into the cloud (or a unit in the cloud) still take the dangerous terrain test, but their initiative is not reduced to 1."

What a comedy of errors.. I can't wait for the new Chaos dex, but you guys really need one.

My personal thoughts on Nids are that they are just as viable an army as everything else. A lot of it has to do with your list. Are you maximizing your pros and minimizing your cons? How you deploy an army is just as important as what is in it too. Is it fair that a lot of the other armies have stuff thats better in close combat? No, not really. Is it cool that you can upgrade 20 guys and put them in a spore then they pop out and throw 60 shots at a squad? Very. Tell him to try Ymgarl genestealers. They might serve him better than the flanking ones.

Ixidor: Im actually a chaos player originally, I abandoned them after I got fed up with the codex... first I went IG, then tyranids... I fear that soon they'll be the next 5th edition chaos codex.

But yeah, working on getting a thousand sons army together for the next code

But yeah, working on getting a thousand sons army together for the next code

Me too haha! What are you building?

rigeld2 wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:Yeah, remind me how that got nerfed? Something about it not counting as dangerous terrain even though it says in the rules that it counts as dangerous terrain?

Models assaulting into the cloud (or a unit in the cloud) still take the dangerous terrain test, but their initiative is not reduced to 1.

Crud missed that nerf job. Need to read my FAQ again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the nerf job on the Doom's spirit leech allowing cover saves. ( Can you guess what unit's I have not run in a while?)

The funny thing about the bugs... is they aren't a "RAWR i'm gonna charge at your face and eat it" kind of army... but people play them that way.

1) they need termagaunts
2) they need Tervigons
3) they need Hiveguard
4) Ymgarls are boss
5) trygons are needed

If your list doesn't have things things

Get these things... and you're good.

simply spreading out and charging at someone will lose you games...

frgsinwntr wrote:The funny thing about the bugs... is they aren't a "RAWR i'm gonna charge at your face and eat it" kind of army... but people play them that way.

1) they need termagaunts
2) they need Tervigons
3) they need Hiveguard
4) Ymgarls are boss
5) trygons are needed

If your list doesn't have things things

Get these things... and you're good.

simply spreading out and charging at someone will lose you games...

That is one of the things that bugs me about the 5th ed codex. The army, fluff wise, should be a "RAWR, i'm going to eat your face" type force, but you can't play them like that any more and expect to win a lot.

barnowl wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:The funny thing about the bugs... is they aren't a "RAWR i'm gonna charge at your face and eat it" kind of army... but people play them that way.

1) they need termagaunts
2) they need Tervigons
3) they need Hiveguard
4) Ymgarls are boss
5) trygons are needed

If your list doesn't have things things

Get these things... and you're good.

simply spreading out and charging at someone will lose you games...

That is one of the things that bugs me about the 5th ed codex. The army, fluff wise, should be a "RAWR, i'm going to eat your face" type force, but you can't play them like that any more and expect to win a lot.

Wasn't the last codex in fact more shooty with carnifexes?

MFletch wrote:

barnowl wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:The funny thing about the bugs... is they aren't a "RAWR i'm gonna charge at your face and eat it" kind of army... but people play them that way.

1) they need termagaunts
2) they need Tervigons
3) they need Hiveguard
4) Ymgarls are boss
5) trygons are needed

If your list doesn't have things things

Get these things... and you're good.

simply spreading out and charging at someone will lose you games...

That is one of the things that bugs me about the 5th ed codex. The army, fluff wise, should be a "RAWR, i'm going to eat your face" type force, but you can't play them like that any more and expect to win a lot.

Wasn't the last codex in fact more shooty with carnifexes?

Not really. You could run close-combat monsters easily enough. The 12-shot Elite fex was pretty good, but so was the screamer-killer... and the fact that you could actually take MCs with 2+ save is the big difference. Nowdays.... Tyranid Codex is essentially stripped of 2+ saves... meanwhile every new army out there can spam missiles all day long... it's a recipe for disaster.

-Myst

Carnifexen are still better at shooting than combat, amazingly.

Someone above me (on my phone, don't wanna check names) said that tyranids fluff and rules don't match up - that's exactly it. GW doesn't know what the hell nids are, besides space bugs from space who eat everything. They can't do horde, are big bugs are either expensive, bad, or both, and are shooting obviously isn't great.

GW needs to just buckle down and decide what they want for tyranids, because the current mix isn't working.

Ixidor: mostly working on getting some son squads in rhinos right now, with dreadnoughtss and terminators.