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barnowl wrote: Both armies require a level of detail attention way beyond the current big 4.

I play nids and grey knights, and dont feel that the nids require anymore attention to detail to win than the grey knights. What they do lack are redundant tools to win, and that hurts them.

What they do lack are redundant tools to win

Please elaborate. I can build redundant lists without spamming identical units. What they lack is reliable ranged redundant AT.

and dont feel that the nids require anymore attention to detail to win than the grey knights

I find my SM lists almost play themselves, are much more forgiving in that I can come back after mistakes, and that Nids are quite the opposite.
Now that could be attributed to the type of list I use - a mix of reserve and on table broods.

I have found 5ed Tyranids are unforgiving as an army - any mistake can really end up costing you. I don't find redundancy to be a big problem. Definitely in a close game you need some good dice but that can be said about other armies as well.

With my bugs, I solve the issue by just piling on and accepting that some armies will have a good chance at trouncing me.

ex, "supprise c*ckf*gs* speed bugs:
winged HT w/ reserve manipulation or Parasite of mortrax
60-90 gargoyles, full upgrades
1 unit yargarbl stealers
2 units hive guard
several units genestealers usually outflanking, sometimes infiltrating
sometimes a tervi for objective sitters and FNP on gargs

If the bugs get first turn, you basically get one shooting phase before your entire army is in CC, if you deploy where stealers can hide out of LOS, you may even get first turn assaulted. Yes, you'll lose tons of bugs to exploding transports and such, but the trick here is the game should be well decided by turn 3, and unlike horde armies like orks its a 150+ model super-fast list and most people dont bring anywhere near enough close ranged anti-horde to deal with it.

I dont really like TMC's, but with clever use of synapse so that assaults become multiassults with only some fearless units, to avoid too many no retreat wounds, you can bring the pain with the little bugs. But it always an uphill battle, any army can table you given enough time, your job is to make sure he has none

I dunno Grundz, I dont see how you seriously expect to handle mech meta with that list without TMCs... I mean, you're basically relying on rending and the Hive Guard. The rending is unreliable to say the eleast, and the Hive Guard are a HUGE target (and fragile).

I would say the worst fith ed codex is currently Grey Knights. Likely the first worst 6th ed codex will be Chaos or Dark Angels (if the rumours are true). Why? The hate. The amount of rolled eyes and assumptions that "X plays Grey Knights therefore X is a douchebag" is horrendous, not to mention the constant moaning on certain forums.

As for worst codex gamewise, I think it could well belong to Sisters, if not 'Nids. Sisters didn't even get a proper codex, just a WD codex.

liquidjoshi wrote:As for worst codex gamewise, I think it could well belong to Sisters, if not 'Nids. Sisters didn't even get a proper codex, just a WD codex.

Have you actually played with or against the new Sisters? They are far from the worst competitively/gamewise. In fact, the sisters provide a pretty nasty counter to mech 3+/2+ armies.

chaos0xomega wrote:I dunno Grundz, I dont see how you seriously expect to handle mech meta with that list without TMCs... I mean, you're basically relying on rending and the Hive Guard. The rending is unreliable to say the eleast, and the Hive Guard are a HUGE target (and fragile).

on the charge, all small bugs can glance down vehicles, (which then causes the contents to automatically die when they can't be placed) it isn't the best solution, but i've had it work pretty well. on one such occasion I had units of stealers first turn assault, stun and shake a good portion of a parking lot, then on turn 2 the yargarbles popped out, everything was surrounded by gargoyles, and the game was over.
Its not the best solution probably overall but I've found it has worked well for me in my land-raider-lacking local meta. Most mech lists are rhino/razorback/chimera based and I haven't had a /huge/ issue with them, it requires luck for sure, but I haven't seen anyone that could reliably deal with 60-90 T3 4/5+ cover and FNP's gargs in the 1-2 shooting phases they get.

"I would say the worst fith ed codex is currently Grey Knights. Likely the first worst 6th ed codex will be Chaos or Dark Angels (if the rumours are true). Why? The hate. The amount of rolled eyes and assumptions that "X plays Grey Knights therefore X is a douchebag" is horrendous, not to mention the constant moaning on certain forums."

I really hope the new Chaos dex doesn't pick up this stigma. That would really gak in my cornflakes.

In terms of using TMCs in conjunction with hordes, I don't think it would work. The issue is that when you try to mix them, it is easy to pop the TMCs and then there isn't enough horde to do anything. I think you'd have to go nidzilla or total horde or some sort of crazy to be anywhere near consistent. But then Tyranids have next to no invul saves and many of the TMCs are vulnerable to instant death. Without survivability, they're just big targets IMHO

pretre wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:As for worst codex gamewise, I think it could well belong to Sisters, if not 'Nids. Sisters didn't even get a proper codex, just a WD codex.

Have you actually played with or against the new Sisters? They are far from the worst competitively/gamewise. In fact, the sisters provide a pretty nasty counter to mech 3+/2+ armies.

Actually, I was only going on what others have said about the codex. I heard the word "nerf" a lot when talking about them. This is only my local area though, I must admit I do not know how they fare in the current meta.

Grundz wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:I dunno Grundz, I dont see how you seriously expect to handle mech meta with that list without TMCs... I mean, you're basically relying on rending and the Hive Guard. The rending is unreliable to say the eleast, and the Hive Guard are a HUGE target (and fragile).

on the charge, all small bugs can glance down vehicles, (which then causes the contents to automatically die when they can't be placed) it isn't the best solution, but i've had it work pretty well. on one such occasion I had units of stealers first turn assault, stun and shake a good portion of a parking lot, then on turn 2 the yargarbles popped out, everything was surrounded by gargoyles, and the game was over.
Its not the best solution probably overall but I've found it has worked well for me in my land-raider-lacking local meta. Most mech lists are rhino/razorback/chimera based and I haven't had a /huge/ issue with them, it requires luck for sure, but I haven't seen anyone that could reliably deal with 60-90 T3 4/5+ cover and FNP's gargs in the 1-2 shooting phases they get.

You mean, all small bugs with adrenal glands are capable of glancing vehicles with AV10, and what with the -2 modifier on the damage chart from glancing, are incapable of destroying it without immobilising it and destroying every weapon. "Small bugs" almost always means gaunts. A good many armies, especially the more popular ones, have ways to minimize or even ignore the impact of stunned/shaken, making 2/3 of your glancing hits useless.

I run a list a bit like Grundz as well. Gargs will immobilize some vehicles in numbers and sometimes even destroy them with enough glances. I don't use ninety though. I do mix MCs into my list - Trygons.

PoM
Gargs
Shrikes
Syyslashers ( really - toxic ones)

Then
Broodlord Stealers ( two squads )
Horms
Tunneling Rippers (really - toxic ones)

And finally
Zoans
DoM
Trygons - a pair

The list attacks on three fronts. I generally get to grips turn two/three with eighty-ninety percent of my army. I use every trick - DS, infiltrate, outflank. Sometimes I eat the bar, sometimes the bar eats me.

Grundz wrote:With my bugs, I solve the issue by just piling on and accepting that some armies will have a good chance at trouncing me.

ex, "supprise c*ckf*gs* speed bugs:
winged HT w/ reserve manipulation or Parasite of mortrax
60-90 gargoyles, full upgrades
1 unit yargarbl stealers
2 units hive guard
several units genestealers usually outflanking, sometimes infiltrating
sometimes a tervi for objective sitters and FNP on gargs

If the bugs get first turn, you basically get one shooting phase before your entire army is in CC, if you deploy where stealers can hide out of LOS, you may even get first turn assaulted. Yes, you'll lose tons of bugs to exploding transports and such, but the trick here is the game should be well decided by turn 3, and unlike horde armies like orks its a 150+ model super-fast list and most people dont bring anywhere near enough close ranged anti-horde to deal with it.

I dont really like TMC's, but with clever use of synapse so that assaults become multiassults with only some fearless units, to avoid too many no retreat wounds, you can bring the pain with the little bugs. But it always an uphill battle, any army can table you given enough time, your job is to make sure he has none

My Eldar really hate Tyranid armies, I usually just don't have enough things to shoot with against them before they go all om nom nom in my face, and then I get these flashes of inspiration "Well if I can't shoot them I probably oughta assault them before they assault me!" which is ok/great with scorpions, but definitely not with Dire Avengers. It's probably how I build my army but I just can't deal with all the models most nid players I play with take.

The only times I've won against Tyranids was when I was able to castle up and force them to come to me in KP(Wave Serpents back row, Dire avengers full squads out with exarch/pw+ss, scorpion squads in front of dire avengers with a exarch with biting blade, I pee in my pants a little when I have to play an objectives game against them

liquidjoshi wrote:I would say the worst fith ed codex is currently Grey Knights. Likely the first worst 6th ed codex will be Chaos or Dark Angels (if the rumours are true). Why? The hate. The amount of rolled eyes and assumptions that "X plays Grey Knights therefore X is a douchebag" is horrendous, not to mention the constant moaning on certain forums.

As for worst codex gamewise, I think it could well belong to Sisters, if not 'Nids. Sisters didn't even get a proper codex, just a WD codex.

As far as being a codex, its pretty bad/sucks that its in a magazine, but on my very first game against Grey Knights I completely wiped their army off the table. In one round with two squads I had killed an entire paladin squad because they could not handle all of the melta gun shots and exorcist missiles I rammed down their throats. Sisters did for me in one game what I couldn't do in 5 games with my Eldar. They are extremely nasty; but I suppose it may well become predictable in the future, then again I have yet to meet a single sisters of battle army player.

Exactly that. Sisters tend to be a good counter to GK.

Please elaborate. I can build redundant lists without spamming identical units. What they lack is reliable ranged redundant AT.

Yeah, redundant tools to win, like ranged anti tank. which is utterly essential in todays meta to ensure you can get some kind of map control going on.

I find my SM lists almost play themselves, are much more forgiving in that I can come back after mistakes, and that Nids are quite the opposite.
Now that could be attributed to the type of list I use - a mix of reserve and on table broods.

That kind of nid list seems pretty bad, and yeah, that would be a lot less forgiving, but because the poor list design results in increasing vulnerability to bad dice.

Comparing say, my coteaz list to my nids, I dont feel that the nids require more complex strategies or tactics to win with, What I do find is that they lack the tools to win every game, and so you rely on your opponent not having the same level of tactical ability you do. However, once you hit that point where you are playing to your best, theres only so much you can do to overcome the limitations of the army. Gk, not being as limited, can let someone use a lot more of their tactical ability than nids, which are severely handicapped.

Our local Nid player has just won two 1000pt Tournaments in a row. He has a 21 win streak and 2 draws. He has just started nids after Grey Knights and these are all the games he has played. His list is:

Tervigon HQ
Tervigon Troop
Termagants
2x 2 Hive Guard
Trygon

Everything is surrounded by Gants so you must charge them and if you shoot anything else it gets a cover save. Similar to the Nid player I run a 1000pt army w/ 2 Princes, 10 1k Sons in Rhinos and 2 Vindicators. Everything got cover from the Vindicators, the Princes got tarpitted and the Trygon ran through all my Sons.

Eidolon wrote:

Please elaborate. I can build redundant lists without spamming identical units. What they lack is reliable ranged redundant AT.

Yeah, redundant tools to win, like ranged anti tank. which is utterly essential in todays meta to ensure you can get some kind of map control going on.

I find my SM lists almost play themselves, are much more forgiving in that I can come back after mistakes, and that Nids are quite the opposite.
Now that could be attributed to the type of list I use - a mix of reserve and on table broods.

That kind of nid list seems pretty bad, and yeah, that would be a lot less forgiving, but because the poor list design results in increasing vulnerability to bad dice.

Comparing say, my coteaz list to my nids, I dont feel that the nids require more complex strategies or tactics to win with, What I do find is that they lack the tools to win every game, and so you rely on your opponent not having the same level of tactical ability you do. However, once you hit that point where you are playing to your best, theres only so much you can do to overcome the limitations of the army. Gk, not being as limited, can let someone use a lot more of their tactical ability than nids, which are severely handicapped.

I wholeheartedly agree. The tyrannids are very playable but they really suffer on the anti-tank front. For instance I ran a tyrannid versus a deathwing yesterday. I doggedly wanted to play an "old" tyrannid list. 2 T Primes, 6 T warriors, 20 hormagaunts, 30 spinequants, 2 Tervigons and 3 carnifexes...
I ran the fexes as a squadron and hit it with catalyst every turn from the tervigon to get some survivability. My tervigons procreated greatly producing over 50 gaunts... The tyrannid warriors underwhelmed but the little bugs did a lot of damage. I got rid of 2 vindicators, 17 terminators and Belial. By the end I had 1 carnifex, 2 tervigons and 9 (total) gaunts left standing. He won but if I had to assess the problem it came down to anti-tank and fearless casualties to losing combat. At the end he had ezekiel, 13 termies and 1 vindicator left. It took 3 turns for me to get the fexes into position to drop the vindicators so I had to survive 9 pie plates. So what I am planning is dropping the primes and tyrannid warriors and adding a tervigon and 2 to 4 hive guard.
Hive guard are the one answer bugs have to the hoard but I just don't think 4 or 8 S8 shots are going to make enough difference if I am facing a true mech target like IG or Mechdar.

phantommaster wrote:Our local Nid player has just won two 1000pt Tournaments in a row. He has a 21 win streak and 2 draws. He has just started nids after Grey Knights and these are all the games he has played. His list is:

Tervigon HQ
Tervigon Troop
Termagants
2x 2 Hive Guard
Trygon

Everything is surrounded by Gants so you must charge them and if you shoot anything else it gets a cover save.

Thats not possible. The only things the gaunts give cover to is the Hive Guard - the official models for the Trygon and Tervigons are massive and aren't getting cover from squat.

Also, at low points nids do ok. At higher values (the more common 1500-2000 range) is where the lack of AT really shows.

Hive Guard in of the Tervigons, they are big enough and the Tervigons need not move from out behind a building or wood either. Nobody ever gets past all the Gants to shoot or charge them.

Why move in on him? He has no long ranged firepower, and has to get close.

Texan_tyrant wrote:
You mean, all small bugs with adrenal glands are capable of glancing vehicles with AV10, and what with the -2 modifier on the damage chart from glancing, are incapable of destroying it without immobilising it and destroying every weapon. "Small bugs" almost always means gaunts. A good many armies, especially the more popular ones, have ways to minimize or even ignore the impact of stunned/shaken, making 2/3 of your glancing hits useless.

"oh god I might lose" against some armies isnt really something you worry about with bugs. Nor am I really too concerned about heavy army and GK shaken ignore, why? because the gargoyles arent going to do the most damage, they are there to put a ton of models on the table that you need to deal with (in addition to the genestealers) and both units are very fast, With preferable terrain, you are looking at being assaulted on the first turn by 1-6 squads of genestealers, and then more than likely on the second with 60-90 gargoyles and possibly yargarbles.
If the enemy castles up and keeps moving around the outer layer to only be hit on 6's,, it can be difficult to get the kind of force concentration you need to kill everything, but at most you are getting 2 shooting phases (if you take first turn) to wipe the army out, all those stealers are going to infiltrate to 12-18" away, all the gargoyles are coming straight at you, synapse or not.
Some armies are mismatched against it but most people try to fight this army incorrectly and it costs them. It either wins big, or loses big, and usually very very quickly. In a tourney setting I haven't seen anyone prepared to deal with such a fast horde list, at all.

Grundz wrote:

Texan_tyrant wrote:
You mean, all small bugs with adrenal glands are capable of glancing vehicles with AV10, and what with the -2 modifier on the damage chart from glancing, are incapable of destroying it without immobilising it and destroying every weapon. "Small bugs" almost always means gaunts. A good many armies, especially the more popular ones, have ways to minimize or even ignore the impact of stunned/shaken, making 2/3 of your glancing hits useless.

"oh god I might lose" against some armies isnt really something you worry about with bugs. Nor am I really too concerned about heavy army and GK shaken ignore, why? because the gargoyles arent going to do the most damage, they are there to put a ton of models on the table that you need to deal with (in addition to the genestealers) and both units are very fast, With preferable terrain, you are looking at being assaulted on the first turn by 1-6 squads of genestealers, and then more than likely on the second with 60-90 gargoyles and possibly yargarbles.
If the enemy castles up and keeps moving around the outer layer to only be hit on 6's,, it can be difficult to get the kind of force concentration you need to kill everything, but at most you are getting 2 shooting phases (if you take first turn) to wipe the army out, all those stealers are going to infiltrate to 12-18" away, all the gargoyles are coming straight at you, synapse or not.
Some armies are mismatched against it but most people try to fight this army incorrectly and it costs them. It either wins big, or loses big, and usually very very quickly. In a tourney setting I haven't seen anyone prepared to deal with such a fast horde list, at all.

Alright, I used to think I knew most of the nid units, but, please explain to me what the hell a yargarble is. I'm assuming it's assault-y? Like some sort of super genestealer? Or a combat-built warrior?

phantommaster wrote:Hive Guard in of the Tervigons, they are big enough and the Tervigons need not move from out behind a building or wood either. Nobody ever gets past all the Gants to shoot or charge them.

Hive guard aren't any bigger than a Warrior, and a Warrior only comes to the head of the Tervigon model.
The back is twice as high as a Carnifex.

Hiding behind a building or a bunch of trees is one thing. But getting cover from gaunts and Hive Guard is impossible.

Plus, as was said, why close? A 24" range on the Hive Guard... And other than that you have no shooting.
That's not scary enough for me to care too much.
You have to close, and if the big scary Tervigons like to hide, they aren't closing.

loota boy wrote:

Alright, I used to think I knew most of the nid units, but, please explain to me what the hell a yargarble is. I'm assuming it's assault-y? Like some sort of super genestealer? Or a combat-built warrior?

lol

they are often unused, big elite genestealers that can chose extra S, T, or A every turn, the good part is they jump out of , and can assault from a peice of terrain when they come into play, basically guarenteeing you get a big unit of super stealers into CC with your whole parking lot on turn 2-3

Grundz wrote:

loota boy wrote:

Alright, I used to think I knew most of the nid units, but, please explain to me what the hell a yargarble is. I'm assuming it's assault-y? Like some sort of super genestealer? Or a combat-built warrior?

lol

they are often unused, big elite genestealers that can chose extra S, T, or A every turn, the good part is they jump out of , and can assault from a peice of terrain when they come into play, basically guarenteeing you get a big unit of super stealers into CC with your whole parking lot on turn 2-3

Ah. Thank you. How many points are they?

More than 150% of a genestealer - equal to a purifier iirc

Thanks! Sorry for de-railing things right there, back on topic now.

I find my SM lists almost play themselves, are much more forgiving in that I can come back after mistakes, and that Nids are quite the opposite.
Now that could be attributed to the type of list I use - a mix of reserve and on table broods.

That kind of nid list seems pretty bad, and yeah, that would be a lot less forgiving, but because the poor list design results in increasing vulnerability to bad dice.

Really? You are making some assumptions here. A lot of Nid lists start units on the board and have some come in from reserve. Null deployment is not as common as a hubrid list and
starting everything on the table has its own disadvantages too. When you lack long range anti-tank dropping zoans in pods, genestealers, ymgarls and even doom are credible
strategies. But yes the dice play a larger role, so managing your resources properly to minimize that effect is key to success. Other top tier codexes do not have these issues.

I'm not enamoured with four Tervigons, nine HG and three T-fexen. It might be a simpler list to play but it has way too many bad match ups. GK, DE, SW can all do a number on that
list. Even Deamons threaten it. That's why I play a three front army. Fast attackers, infiltraters/outflankers and DSing bombs.

Yrable = Yrmgal

I'm thinking. : )

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For your edification.