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rigeld2 wrote:
I'm beginning to hate that phrase. Maybe because I work in IT and I'm tired of it as a marketing term.

Tyranids are not the only codex where units work together to get more powerful. They seem like the only codex that you *must* work together to become average (compared to the other top codexes). They also seem like the only codex where if you screw up and mis-estimate an assault, don't roll high enough on MTC, fail a few cover saves - you lose. Because of that Synergy, if one unit in the chain dies, the whole thing falls apart. Venomthropes give everyone cover saves, so you need a couple units of them (for redundancy) and when they're wiped out (because they only have a 4+ cover save and 2 un-shenaniganed (tm) wounds each - so 12 wounds to kill the unit which doesn't take much at all - and that's if you're taking 2 units of 3 each) the TMCs are back out in the open and your other units are hugging trees.

Instead of bringing up other examples, I'll just say that I'm annoyed that one of the scary CC units (genestealers) is completely overshadowed by recent codexes.

Synapse is fluffy but hinders as much as it helps.
Tervigons bestowing TS/AG to gant units within range is cool - until the 'gon explodes and kills said gants. With a 3+ save it can be krak missiled to death pretty easily, let alone lascannoned.


Maybe I'm just grouchy today.

I didn't say they were the only codex, where units work together to get more powerful. That is pretty self-explanatory. But that's really not the point. The point is that people are too fast to judge them, and label them as a merely useless army. There are isolated examples, where the Tyranids are truly struggling (such as matched against GK, whose natural strengths are ridiculously adapted for taking down 'nids). But besides that, I still find Tyranids capable.

The thing about the Tyranids, as you explain yourself, is that they're far more penalized, when making mistakes (and i do agree). But they're not the first army to suffer from this. Not all armies are crafted in such a way, that you can simply get around it, the first time you open up the given book. But the fact is, that Tyranids wasn't all that horrible, until the GK codex was released, and Tyranid players started pulling hair out of their heads from the horror they watched displayed on the Table.

DE and SW has always - as far as I know - been a tough nut to crack. But people have managed to take them down through blood, sweat and nerdy tears. (Even though GK is a league of it's own!).

The Tyranids are like a 4th ed. codex written in 5th ed.

They play well against any 4th ed. codex as well as the early 5th ed. ones (SM, IG). But they're also as vulnerable to the 'tricks' of the later 5th ed. codexes as the remaining 4th ed. ones tend to be. I'm thinking here of the Wolves' missile-spam and JotWW, GKs' force weapons, psyflemen and purifiers, DE's massed poison shooting combined with far superior manoeuvrability.

Still, they're fine against the Blood Angels and every other army, so I do think people who complain about they're unplayability are simply being drama-queens. Most armies have problems of similar scale against the aforementioned trifecta.

Edit: Can't speak to their effectiveness against, or in comparison to, Necrons.

I just wanted to throw in my two cents with regard to how they're going to perform when 6th hits in the summer.

I've heard it said that every codex since Nids (including the Nid codex) was written with 6th in mind. That doesn't mean a whole lot by itself, but when taken in conjunction with the "leaked" 6e PDF seems to shed a bit of light on some of the more facepalm aspects of the codex.

The "pancake edition" or whatever it's called now is, according to BoW, the designers' test baby, their chance to go wild and make the game they wanted to make. Most of the biggest changes (like switching the Shooting and Assault phases) probably won't make it into the actual 6th ed, but the portion of that leaked PDF I'm thinking of is how reserves were handled.

Instead of rolling for each unit separately like it is now, each unit in reserve provided a single reserve die that was added to a pool of dice. These dice could then be allocated to different units in reserve, with up to three dice per unit. So if you have four units in reserve, you would have four dice that you could allocate however you wanted (with a maximum of three to one unit). This system would make the Tyranids' reserve manipulation tactics like the Lictor and the Trygon's Subterranean Assault actually work properly, as you could allocate to ensure the Lictor/Trygon would arrive first, paving the way for a second wave of reinforcements.

While it's very possible that this element has been stripped from the final version, it doesn't strike me as the type of change that would be too sweeping for the GW corporate heads to risk. Its presence in the pancake edition at the very least indicates that the designers are thinking about reserves in this way, which gives me hope for the future of the Nid codex.

Of course, it's certainly possible that we'll all be horribly disappointed when 6th hits, as the Grey Knights become an even harder counter and Lictors continue to collect dust on shelves.

frgsinwntr wrote:The funny thing about the bugs... is they aren't a "RAWR i'm gonna charge at your face and eat it" kind of army... but people play them that way.

1) they need termagaunts
2) they need Tervigons
3) they need Hiveguard
4) Ymgarls are boss
5) trygons are needed

If your list doesn't have things things

Get these things... and you're good.

simply spreading out and charging at someone will lose you games...

As I've stated above, this is probably my single biggest issue with the dex: how almost everything that existed before was nerfed to the point of near uselessness, essentially forcing players to replace most to all of their army if they want to be competitive. I'm not saying I should be able to run the exact same list I had in 4th ed and do just as well. If I could, what would be the point of making a new edition? However, neither should almost everything takeable (not viable, but literally takeable) in the previous edition be either horrible (Tyrant, broodlord, non-bonesword warriors, lictors, raveners, biovores, fexes) or utterly dependent on new models to be useable (gaunts, thropes). Note that I'm counting gargs as new, b/c they were prohibitively expensive in terms of money when they were sold by the pair and min squad size was 8. Genestealers went from being good to merely meh.

To they guy above who recommended I take Ymgarls: I do, two large squads of them. They can definitely be useful if you correctly guess where your opponent will be when they come in, but like everything nid-ly, they drop like flies to shooting and have a really tough time against anything with an invul save, a.k.a. most elite assault units, a.k.a. what they're supposed to be.

One last note: I've heard a lot about cover getting nerfed in 6th (making all the saves one worse or similar). I've been playing 40k for almost 10 years, but if cover gets whacked and there's no countering benefit to nids, I may not play until nids get a 6th ed dex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Roboute wrote:I just wanted to throw in my two cents with regard to how they're going to perform when 6th hits in the summer.

I've heard it said that every codex since Nids (including the Nid codex) was written with 6th in mind. That doesn't mean a whole lot by itself, but when taken in conjunction with the "leaked" 6e PDF seems to shed a bit of light on some of the more facepalm aspects of the codex.

The "pancake edition" or whatever it's called now is, according to BoW, the designers' test baby, their chance to go wild and make the game they wanted to make. Most of the biggest changes (like switching the Shooting and Assault phases) probably won't make it into the actual 6th ed, but the portion of that leaked PDF I'm thinking of is how reserves were handled.

Instead of rolling for each unit separately like it is now, each unit in reserve provided a single reserve die that was added to a pool of dice. These dice could then be allocated to different units in reserve, with up to three dice per unit. So if you have four units in reserve, you would have four dice that you could allocate however you wanted (with a maximum of three to one unit). This system would make the Tyranids' reserve manipulation tactics like the Lictor and the Trygon's Subterranean Assault actually work properly, as you could allocate to ensure the Lictor/Trygon would arrive first, paving the way for a second wave of reinforcements.

While it's very possible that this element has been stripped from the final version, it doesn't strike me as the type of change that would be too sweeping for the GW corporate heads to risk. Its presence in the pancake edition at the very least indicates that the designers are thinking about reserves in this way, which gives me hope for the future of the Nid codex.

Of course, it's certainly possible that we'll all be horribly disappointed when 6th hits, as the Grey Knights become an even harder counter and Lictors continue to collect dust on shelves.

Of course, something like this could well be the counterbalance mentioned above, as one Hive Commander Tyrant plus lictor could essentially give a guarantee that everything comes in on turn 3. Alternatively, all dice could be allocated to one throw-away unit each turn, ensuring everything arrives at the last possible moment.

Genestealers are devestating against hordes and can hold their own against MEQ. They're one of the best meleé Troops in the game for the points you pay.
Popping transports for them to get to the troops shouldn't be hard with Hive Guard laying waste to AV 11/12 transports.
They also have MCs for laying waste to tanks and an MC that can camp an objective.
So I wouldn't say they were "one of the worst". They're not as strong as IG/BA/SW/GK but they're top-tier.

The lack of grenades takes Genestealers from "good" to "meh".
With the prevelance of Str8+ firepower that is AP3 or better, nid MCs getting to melee vehicles just isn't reliable.

I played a nid player today with my standard 1500 point wolf army (lots of missiles and lascanons, a rune priest with jaws and a nasty thundercav / wolflord unit) and after blowing away half his army in 2 turns i felt genuinely bad, MCs just dont seem to be able to survive the firepower that gets thrown at them. My army isnt even a top tournament level army as well, a venom spam DE army or psycanon heavy GK army must be even worse.
Maybe if trygons had a 2+ save and were slightly more expensive that sort of thing.
Tyranid warriors seem like they could use toughness 5 as well, getting blown away by missiles or doubled out by fists so easily for an expensive model is really punishing.

I wanted to chime in here, and as I'm on vacation, this may ne a two.part post,
I've had a nid army since third edition, while the meta where I play has changed a lot, and the 4 th ed monster mash isn't really viable... Aaaand we got hit pretty hard by the need bat with that faq, and lack assault grenades, units with invulnerable that are not either spec characters or zooeys I'd say the dex has its moments.

I have to go four now but my two cents is that for better or worst we now dependant on synergy...

"I played a nid player today with my standard 1500 point wolf army (lots of missiles and lascanons, a rune priest with jaws and a nasty thundercav / wolflord unit) and after blowing away half his army in 2 turns i felt genuinely bad, MCs just dont seem to be able to survive the firepower that gets thrown at them."

This is literally how this whole thing started. I raped Texan_Tyrant silly and it's not b/c I'm better, it's because of the inherent imitations of his list. Hopefully they get a buff in 6th ed, because if not the 5th ed codex may become unplayable.

Man, this was the first time I really just went through the old list entry by entry and compared it to the current one. All I have to say is wtf cruddace. wtf man.

Hive Tyrant: costs 95 more points for losing eternal warrior, getting a near useless bump to WS (in most cases the most useless stat in the game due to the inability to move to a point more extreme than 3+ or 5+) a pip more strength, and losing the ability to have a 2+ save, and/or 2+/6++
Also no longer capable of taking grenades.

Tyrant Guard: Only useful on a foot tyrant anyway, and increased in points by 33%. Lash whips decreased form 6 points to 5 points. Lost a point of initiative that allowed them hit before MEQ without whips. Lost ability to take grenades (flesh hooks for 1 point no less). Still T6 W2 but lost eternal warrior granted by synapse. Hit by the rending nerf, but it's not like they were doing that much damage anyway.

Broodlord: went from 70-pt HQ with synapse, infiltrate, power weapons, to a 46-point genestealer sergeant with no synapse, no power weapon, and no reason to exist apart from the hope than you can get off hypnotic gaze.

Warriors: Got the extra wound, lost EW. Be honest, which would you rather have? Apart from that, you used to be able to make a warrior with the same statline and weapons as the current ones for 3 more, only instead of S4 Assault 3 AP- the devourers were in effect S3 Assault 4 AP- with an ability to reroll to wound. Gained the ability to take boneswords, lost the ability to take grenades.

Lictors: 15 points less, but now are forced to pop out and say "boo" instead of actually attacking anything. Either way, 4 non-PW attacks on the charge for such a costly model/unit isn't going to damage anything.

Genestealers: for 2 points less, suffered the rending nerf, the fleet nerf, can't take grenades, and lost the ability to have a 4+ save. In return, infiltrate/outflank became free.

Gaunts: Very nearly the same cost, only living ammunition no longer exists, and most of their upgradeability is gone. Also gone is the hilarity that was WoN, though it wasn't that effective in games where there weren't objectives within 6 inches of your table edge. Never actually expected to destroy stuff stronger than basic infantry, now dependent on Tervigons to do much of anything.

Hormagaunts: cost 4 entire points less (not sarcasm, that's quite a drop at that range) but lost a pip of WS(meh), got a pip more I (enough to hit before MEQ normally) lost upgrade options (including grenades), and lost their 12" charge range (Oshi). Also took the fleet nerf, and are still dependent on synapse, which as a whole is more fragile.

Rippers: There's a reason they're included for free on most sprues. Moving on.

Raveners: Effectively dropped in points, though the min squad size increased increasing the cost of a small squad. Didn't have it themselves, but still took the loss of synapse EW pretty hard.

Gargoyles: Not even including these as an old unit, as they used to be sold as metal models by the pair while min squad size was 8, making a squad of any size almost impossible to take for all but the most dedicated flying circus enthusiasts.

Spore mines: See rippers

Zoanthropes: Assuming you took warp blast and synapse, and if you didn't then why did you bother with these guys in the first place, actually a bit cheaper now, with BS4 instead of 3, and the semi-improvement to warp field. However, the loss of synapse EW has meant that they'll survive one turn barring impossibly lucky rolling. This essentially necessitates that they get put in a spore, increasing the cost of a unit of two by a third. Moved from HS to Elites, and lost the ability to run independently while still a single FO slot.

Biovore: 5 points more, suffer IB, can move and fire, but lost flexibility in terms of type of mines. Honestly, though, beaten out in either dex by FAR better HS units.

Carnifex: Yeah... factoring in the ST base cost, costs 60 points more than before for 2 extra attacks. Can no longer take a 2+ save, or the vast majority of the other upgrades formerly available. Can take grenades, but at I1 anyway, why bother? Honestly, take a look at the 4th ed fex and compare it to the 5th ed one. The sheer loss of options is saddening, even without the points increase.

o_O Man that's a whole lot worse that I thought.

Genestealers I think are still one of the best melee units for the points and are a scoring unit. Even with the lack of grenades they can still charge an enemy unit in cover and win. T4 is pretty darn good for survivability coupled with cover. The trick is to keep them safe until the right moment. I don't why they lost grenades - it sucks - but if you play the army they can do some amazing things.

-666- wrote:Genestealers I think are still one of the best melee units for the points and are a scoring unit. Even with the lack of grenades they can still charge an enemy unit in cover and win. T4 is pretty darn good for survivability coupled with cover. The trick is to keep them safe until the right moment. I don't why they lost grenades - it sucks - but if you play the army they can do some amazing things.

They're not awful, but what they do best by far is chew through squads of medium infantry - the type currently found in a transport on nearly every occasion. This necessitates popping the transport before they get there, which implies a need for ranged AT, which implies a need to support stealers with hive guard, tyrannofexes, or spored zoanthropes, who are almost certainly best suited to shooting the bigger tanks. Accepting this means that genestealers are dependent on support from the newer models, reinforcing my point above.

Texan_tyrant wrote:
Carnifex: Yeah... factoring in the ST base cost, costs 60 points more than before for 2 extra attacks. Can no longer take a 2+ save, or the vast majority of the other upgrades formerly available. Can take grenades, but at I1 anyway, why bother? Honestly, take a look at the 4th ed fex and compare it to the 5th ed one. The sheer loss of options is saddening, even without the points increase.

This is what really hurt me. I mean, the Carnifex was emblematic of the Tyranid force. In fourth, it had a mountain of options and was a pretty solid piece. Increase that sad WS? Yes, you could. Increase that armor protection? Yes you could. And they made all these different head and tail options to reflect that specific Carnifex build.

And the recent codex throws that all away, replacing it with "Hey! You can take more of them!"

Yes Thousand Sons are one the worst troop choices in the game but as an experienced 40K player the nids player should have known about the 4 up invul. There was a trigon two hive tyrants and a tyranofex on the tabletop too instead of uselessly attacking the Tsons with genestealers shoot the Tsons with all that shooty stuff that out ranges the bolters. Both Tyrants had heavy venom cannons along with the tyranofex I think. However the real power house on the field was the all bike SM army fighting with the Tsons.

Texan_tyrant wrote:Man, this was the first time I really just went through the old list entry by entry and compared it to the current one. All I have to say is wtf cruddace. wtf man.

Now I am not trying to completely take devils advocate but I think your analysis has some flaws and missing info.

Hive Tyrant: costs 95 more points for losing eternal warrior, getting a near useless bump to WS (in most cases the most useless stat in the game due to the inability to move to a point more extreme than 3+ or 5+) a pip more strength, and losing the ability to have a 2+ save, and/or 2+/6++
Also no longer capable of taking grenades.

Gained two psychic powers, one of which being quite good despite its short range (Paroxysm).
Gained options for excellent upgrades like hive commander and old advesary.
Its devourers gained a pip of strength
It gained a base attack (+ for shooty tyrants, - for assauty ones that took scything talons).

Tyrant Guard:

Nerfed without a doubt. I think they were slightly undercosted before but not to the extent they needed stat nerfs and cost increases.

Broodlord: went from 70-pt HQ with synapse, infiltrate, power weapons, to a 46-point genestealer sergeant with no synapse, no power weapon, and no reason to exist apart from the hope than you can get off hypnotic gaze.

I like that they gave stealers an upgrade sgt personally but they should have retained some sort of stealer HQ also. Their powers are kinda meh also.

Warriors: Got the extra wound, lost EW. Be honest, which would you rather have? Apart from that, you used to be able to make a warrior with the same statline and weapons as the current ones for 3 more, only instead of S4 Assault 3 AP- the devourers were in effect S3 Assault 4 AP- with an ability to reroll to wound. Gained the ability to take boneswords, lost the ability to take grenades.

They are troops now which is huge boost in most ways. They are also overall cheaper then they were for similar builds, although they lost some good things also (like leaping and s6 blast spam) but gained power weapons (for a rediculous cost). Warriors were a missed opportunity though imo, needing either a psychic power that helps the army or a better heavy gun option before being really viable.

The eternal warrior thing is really more an issue with the game rules imo then an issue with the dex. When daemons got eternal warrior it was a given Tyranids would lose it. And they should imo, giving nids eternal warrior is a hack job on what is really at fault -- the way instant death works is stupid. If the 6ed rules revamp this like those pancake rules then warrior get a bit better for having 3 wounds and its overall better for the game.

Lictors: 15 points less, but now are forced to pop out and say "boo" instead of actually attacking anything. Either way, 4 non-PW attacks on the charge for such a costly model/unit isn't going to damage anything.

Lictors got so much better its just funny. They gained a wound, fleet, ability to be in units (rather then die to anything besides 5 tau due to not enough attacks and wounds) a shooting attack, flexibility in where they show up and not taking a stupid dangerous terrain test anytime they came on. They did lose a pip of cover save which is unfortunate and the ability to grant preferred enemy which is a bummer also. Their reserve altering ability is just poorly written also.

But the biggest issue for them is competing with 3 other units that are plain better then them and neigh mandatory in most games.

Genestealers: for 2 points less, suffered the rending nerf, the fleet nerf, can't take grenades, and lost the ability to have a 4+ save. In return, infiltrate/outflank became free.

The fleet nerf? WTF is that? You mean how everyone gained run? That's not a nerf considering few get to assault after a run.

They also gained poison option which means the rending nerf is mitigated against MEq and similar. But I do agree they took some big hits in the options department.

What you haven't mentioned which is huge is an increase in the unit size. Which in how 5ed works is a big deal, even more so with catalyst in the codex.

Gaunts: Very nearly the same cost, only living ammunition no longer exists, and most of their upgradeability is gone. Also gone is the hilarity that was WoN, though it wasn't that effective in games where there weren't objectives within 6 inches of your table edge. Never actually expected to destroy stuff stronger than basic infantry, now dependent on Tervigons to do much of anything.

The lost fleet which was a nerf but termagants are cheaper. Spinegaunts got a serious nerf but they can be more shooty, more efficiently via devourers. They become quite strong with a tervigon. WoN was ignored until 5ed. Overall I wish they had done a bit more with their weapon options and the tervigon boost should have been an optional upgrade for tyrants imo.

Hormagaunts: cost 4 entire points less (not sarcasm, that's quite a drop at that range) but lost a pip of WS(meh), got a pip more I (enough to hit before MEQ normally) lost upgrade options (including grenades), and lost their 12" charge range (Oshi). Also took the fleet nerf, and are still dependent on synapse, which as a whole is more fragile.

Overall they were improved. You missed they have an improved run, which puts their turn 2 threat range about the same as their old threat range. They can also get into upper levels of ruins now. Issue with hormagants in the current dex is no real synergy with any unit. Could have been amazing had trygon hole worked right.

Rippers: There's a reason they're included for free on most sprues. Moving on.

I always thought rippers should score. Just makes sense to me with nid fluff and would give bugs a unique unit. Alas they phoned them in once again.

Raveners: Effectively dropped in points, though the min squad size increased increasing the cost of a small squad. Didn't have it themselves, but still took the loss of synapse EW pretty hard.

Raveners like stealers suffered from changes in 5ed combat more then anything, not being able to clip a few models and clear killzones makes them much less worth their points . I think they are still decent but like warriors they need a revamp in how instant death works.

Gargoyles: Not even including these as an old unit, as they used to be sold as metal models by the pair while min squad size was 8, making a squad of any size almost impossible to take for all but the most dedicated flying circus enthusiasts.

Lets just say it as it is -- they are hugely improved. Cruddace got them right at least.

Spore mines: See rippers

Yep, missed opportunity.

Zoanthropes: Assuming you took warp blast and synapse, and if you didn't then why did you bother with these guys in the first place, actually a bit cheaper now, with BS4 instead of 3, and the semi-improvement to warp field. However, the loss of synapse EW has meant that they'll survive one turn barring impossibly lucky rolling. This essentially necessitates that they get put in a spore, increasing the cost of a unit of two by a third. Moved from HS to Elites, and lost the ability to run independently while still a single FO slot.

Zoanthropes were terrible in 4ed dex. Lets not mince words. Psychic choir had some play but was generally not great with a cc army, the anti-tank was so unreliable to be laughable and they competed with the underpriced carnifex -- but they were a neccesary evil for the synapse coverage in some armies

Biovore: 5 points more, suffer IB, can move and fire, but lost flexibility in terms of type of mines. Honestly, though, beaten out in either dex by FAR better HS units.

Biovores are cheaper by a bit cause they don't pay for spores and there was no flexibility unless you cheated or tailored your list. Move and fire is a huge boost but is counteracted by IB. I actually think a unit of them in a shooty 5ed list is quite worthwhile. No reason to take them in the old dex imo.

Carnifex: Yeah... factoring in the ST base cost, costs 60 points more than before for 2 extra attacks. Can no longer take a 2+ save, or the vast majority of the other upgrades formerly available. Can take grenades, but at I1 anyway, why bother? Honestly, take a look at the 4th ed fex and compare it to the 5th ed one. The sheer loss of options is saddening, even without the points increase.

Carnifexes were undercosted in 4ed. Its just a fact. I think they are overcosted now but not by much -- especially if you pair them with tyranid primes for cover save goodness. I do agree though, removing options that are sitting on their sprue is just plain dumb and did piss me off.

I'm just gonna throw this out there -- the 4ed dex was crappy and souless despite some strong points (which had more to do with 4ed rules then the dex). It was mearly a vehicle to sell carnifexes and metal tyrants. The whole flavor and feel of the bugs, whether hordes of bodies or the 'they are coming at us from all sides' took a back seat to the TMCs. Cruddace you can tell tried to fix that and failed -- had a few things been tweaked, added and improved then I think the dex would have been a success. The dex just feels rushed. Really cool ideas and potential though and I hope a 6ed errata helps polish things a bit.

Well I gotta say I am really glad to have both sides of the argument to fuel further debate. I am learning all sorts of stuff.

Also

"However the real power house on the field was the all bike SM army fighting with the Tsons."

This guy was there too, so what he says is relevant, not just random gibberish (usually ).

Tyranids, in my experience, have three crippling flaws.

1) A very low anti-tank ceiling. We cap at 3 anti-tank threats, baring the Tyranofex, which is massively overpriced in that role. While we can destroy tanks in many other ways, these are generally what, for other armies, would be backup (melee, heavy anti-infantry, etc.) and generally have a fairly poor exchange rate (10 Genestealers: 140 points. Transport: less than 50)

Tyranids need some other Antitank at range. Venom cannons need to be assault 2 or 3, not a blast weapon, and they also could go with losing the -1 modifier. Say, light venom cannon S7 Assault 2, and heavy venom cannon S9 Assault 2.

2) About 20-25% of the cost for monstrous creatures is not needed. In the current climate, monstrous creatures die to fast for their cost. At a lower cost, we would be able to add one or two more to ensure they get through.

3) We need grenades, or some similar ability. We are an assault army that only has three grenade-packing units. Two don't need it (the harpy shoots, and the carnifex can tough it out, and has only average initiative). Genestealersa especially rely on hitting first, and not letting the enemy swing back, and suffer when forced through cover.

1) A very low anti-tank ceiling. We cap at 3 anti-tank threats, baring the Tyranofex, which is massively overpriced in that role. While we can destroy tanks in many other ways, these are generally what, for other armies, would be backup (melee, heavy anti-infantry, etc.) and generally have a fairly poor exchange rate (10 Genestealers: 140 points. Transport: less than 50)

Tyranids need some other Antitank at range. Venom cannons need to be assault 2 or 3, not a blast weapon, and they also could go with losing the -1 modifier. Say, light venom cannon S7 Assault 2, and heavy venom cannon S9 Assault 2.

2) About 20-25% of the cost for monstrous creatures is not needed. In the current climate, monstrous creatures die to fast for their cost. At a lower cost, we would be able to add one or two more to ensure they get through.

These are the biggest issues as I see it. I can't speak to the grenade thing, but the fact that the Tyranids really only have their MC assaults to tear open vehicles is a large issue for them and one I always exploit. And then there's the issue of the squad inside then getting to shoot and assault once the transport is popped. Given these limitations, I have to agree.

Perhaps some sort of rule that puts more wounds on the squads inside a vehicle when it's destroyed would be in order, to represent the claws and talons slicing it into bite-sized pieces.

I think that's exactly right, something like the rules for the FW Decimator engine where cc attacks that pen vehicles inflict flamer hits on the units inside.

Something so terrifying that people would rather bail out their squads then let them be crushed inside.

Because I mean seriously, having a transport crushed/burned/BLOWN UP should not leave the squad inside in good shape.

Perhaps when the monsterous creature roles doubles for its penetration roles and penetrates the vehicle, the other guy takes d3 attacks to the unit inside? I'm not sure, perhaps it should be posted on the proposed rules section.

Hmmmm, issues, where to start



1: Stealers need grenades.
Ive run a stealer shock army for years now, but the lack of nades really does hurt alot.

2: Fex points costs - so what we have now is the same beast, with less upgrade options, at nearly double the price (but we can take 3?)
Seems like a weird way of doing it.
The fact that they must all take the same upgrades aswell is poor taste.
Claws now set you back nearly the cost of another fex for a unit of 3.
Atleast with varying upgrades you could run a multi-purpose unit that could bounce wounds to help it last longer.

3: Primes lack of movement.
Great idea, it really is, but its too slow.
Would liketo see wings or a snake-tail type upgrade option so i can throw him with ravs or shrikes so i can actually get a better use from them.

BIG 4: Anti-tank.
This has been covered to death though, so ill just leave it at that.

5: unit choices.
Seems alot of things we want are all cramped in the same place.
To take the usual 2 tervies, people have to take 2 units of termies, so thats 4 slots used.
Leaves only 2 for poor stealers :(
But elites are the bigger issue.
Hive guards are a must, and usually 2 units.
Thropes are nice, but not as reliable i find.
Ymgarl's are ace, but leave no room for error.
Doom is great, but you have to waste a rare choice on him, which sucks badly.
Venoms - a nice unit ive grown to like. Thier abilities really do give a massive advantage, but i find myself having to drop anti-tank for them, something that should be an option in HS.


Thats just my thoughts anyway.

Hey Texan_Tyrant where is your counter to the guy who countered you?