Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The God emperor already has bio engineered gorilla men, why does he need people? Basic average people? Are they a viable army?

I almost feel that this is a troll but Ill give you the benefit of the doubt.

There are only roughly 1000000 space marines. Sounds like alot. However factor in the size of the IoM and you realize that 1000000 doesnt go very far. Your going to need actual soldiers to hold the planets and take new ones. In fact space marines only make up a fraction of a percent of the IoM fighting forces. Almost all battles are fought and won by the Imperial Guard. The purpose of the Imperial Guard is to do what Marines cant. Fight in large scale battles. Which means the Guard will be the ones defending the planets, and taking new ones. The Marines are spec ops shock troops made for lighting raids. The Guard is the line infantry with all the big guns made for utterly crushing the enemy.

99% of the fight are done by the IG.

Another problem with the marines is that they have difficulty fighting in prolonged battles. They can do it but it becomes difficult to resupply them because they need rare weapons and ammo. also losing just one squuad even one death is a big thing to the marines whereas a gaurdsmen dying just isn't a big deal.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/442975.page

There you go

Def not trolling. Just didn't see the purpose... until now. I borrowed the ig codex from a friend.... wow. They are awesome! I almost feel bad now asking this.

aapch1 wrote:The God emperor already has bio engineered gorilla men, why does he need people? Basic average people? Are they a viable army?

There is not enough Adeptus Astartes to defend the whole galaxy at once, so they recruited trillions of weak, lesser men to hold off the enemy forces till they get there.

SM can also be temperamental. Refusing to do work that is beneath them like guarding a convoy.

The Imperial Guard acts as the standing military for the Imperium of Man. Under Segmentum Command, elements of the Imperial Guard are tasked with a myriad of situations the Space Marines can not (or will not) participate in:

1) Defending entire planets.
2) Guarding Logistical Supplies (Such as Depots, Refineries, and Civil Installations)
3) Holding strategic assets during an invasion.
4) Be the driving force of an attack.

Without the driving force and occupational numbers of the Guard, the Space Marines would be hard pressed to keep any Imperial Worlds outside of thier cloistered systems thier Chapter Monasteries are located. Ultramar wouldn't be a sweeping Empire without the Imperial Guard stationed there.

Their nicknames tell you all you need, the Astartes are the Angels of Death, the Imperial Guard is the Sledgehammer of the Emperor. There are only about a million astartes, they can't be everywhere at once and even if they could they don't have the numbers to fight conventional battles. That is where the Imperial Guard comes in, they act as the main army, they have the heavy assets and number to win wars. A simple way to put it Space Marines are the special forces and the Imperial Guard is the regular army, special forces may be better trained, but they aren't numerous enough nor do they have the equipment to win a war on their own.

They do most of the work and win the war just in time for the Astartes to step in and take the credit.

Joking aside, I think of the Space Marines as filing the "special forces" role while the Guard do everything else. Having said that, the Guard have special forces too. Maybe the Marines are the extra-special forces...the Space Marines have more specialised roles, being more likely to go for a sudden surgical strike or seek out specific threats, while the IG fare better in extended campaigns across a wider variety of operations (um, apart from when they don't, and can carry out surgical strikes and so forth themselves...I do think that there can be quite alot of overlap).

Brother Thomas wrote:There is not enough Adeptus Astartes to defend the whole galaxy at once, so they recruited trillions of weak, lesser men to hold off the enemy forces till they get there.

Those men & women who make up the Imperial Guard are the best each planet has to offer. Without the equipment, armour or enhancements of the Astartes, they've more balls than the Space Marines do - the Astartes are psychologicaly altered & conditioned so that they do not feel fear - Guardsmen willingly stand up to the nastiest things the Galaxy can throw at them with just their regular human bodies, their flak armour & their lasguns to defend themselves with. To overcome the natural instinct to flee, to muster enough courage to conquer their fear and to hold the line despite having their worst nightmares charging down on them - makes the Astartes look weak by comparison and makes each Guardsman look as though they have balls of adamantium.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:Those men & women who make up the Imperial Guard are the best each planet has to offer. Without the equipment, armour or enhancements of the Astartes, they've more balls than the Space Marines do - the Astartes are psychologicaly altered & conditioned so that they do not feel fear - Guardsmen willingly stand up to the nastiest things the Galaxy can throw at them with just their regular human bodies, their flak armour & their lasguns to defend themselves with. To overcome the natural instinct to flee, to muster enough courage to conquer their fear and to hold the line despite having their worst nightmares charging down on them - makes the Astartes look weak by comparison and makes each Guardsman look as though they have balls of adamantium.

Though in fairness sake we have to admit commissars do help guardsmen "perform" like stated above.

Depends on the regiment, really.

To repeat above... 99.99999% of all fighting is done by other arms of the Imperium.

Seriously a 1000 man Chapter does not last long in battle, they cannot afford battles of attrition or grinding victories. StormTroopers and Plasma Special squads can tear through Space Marines.

Space Marines are awesome but not invincible.

To break it down even further:

Something like 90% of the fighting in the Imperium is done by the Planetary Defense Forces/Sectorial Picket fleets.
5% is done by the Imperial Guard supporting those PDFs.
3% is done by the Imperial Navy, effectively ending wars before they begin.
1% is done by the Astartes supporting the PDF/Imperial Guard or operating by themselves.
1% is done by the Sisters of Battle supporting the PDF/Imperial Guard or operating by themselves.


The Imperial Guard, believe it or not, is actually an "elite" force. Their lives are not spent carelessly despite what Chenkov makes people think.

More like "What is the point of space marines when you have the imperial guard?".

jgehunter wrote:Though in fairness sake we have to admit commissars do help guardsmen "perform" like stated above.

Most Commissar's would, I am sure, like to stay alive, no matter how fierce & zealous their devotion to the Emperor is and summarily executing Guardsmen is a quick route to the grave - if the enemy don't get you the Guardsmen most definitely will - afterall, it's so very easy to fumble a grenade or to accidentally hit a target 'moving across your sights' at the 'wrong time' *wink wink*

There are other ways to inspire the troops to fight on but each Commissar must find his own way of doing it. Unless he does want to be a complete authoritarian by the book summary execution type, in which case his days are numbered because he'll make enemies out of the Guardsmen they fight alongside as well as whoever they're fighting.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

Most Commissar's would, I am sure, like to stay alive, no matter how fierce & zealous their devotion to the Emperor is and summarily executing Guardsmen is a quick route to the grave - if the enemy don't get you the Guardsmen most definitely will - afterall, it's so very easy to fumble a grenade or to accidentally hit a target 'moving across your sights' at the 'wrong time' *wink wink*

There are other ways to inspire the troops to fight on but each Commissar must find his own way of doing it. Unless he does want to be a complete authoritarian by the book summary execution type, in which case his days are numbered because he'll make enemies out of the Guardsmen they fight alongside as well as whoever they're fighting.

I wasn't talking about the commissars constantly executing men, but their mere presence and the stories told about them would inspire respect (A bit like with Ciaphas Cain)

Joey wrote:More like "What is the point of space marines when you have the imperial guard?".

^This

Joey wrote:More like "What is the point of space marines when you have the imperial guard?".

To be fair, without the Space Marines leaping headlong into an enemy held stronghold, gimping the leadership (some of the time), the wars would take forever to end. And telling Space Marine fables make all the Conscripts want to become big strong heroes in the Imperial Guard so that one day, he might get to shoot the nastier ones in the face.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:There is not enough Adeptus Astartes to defend the whole galaxy at once, so they recruited trillions of weak, lesser men to hold off the enemy forces till they get there.

Those men & women who make up the Imperial Guard are the best each planet has to offer. Without the equipment, armour or enhancements of the Astartes, they've more balls than the Space Marines do - the Astartes are psychologicaly altered & conditioned so that they do not feel fear - Guardsmen willingly stand up to the nastiest things the Galaxy can throw at them with just their regular human bodies, their flak armour & their lasguns to defend themselves with. To overcome the natural instinct to flee, to muster enough courage to conquer their fear and to hold the line despite having their worst nightmares charging down on them - makes the Astartes look weak by comparison and makes each Guardsman look as though they have balls of adamantium.

All I heard was "Wah, The Astartes are way more badass"

KplKeegan wrote:

Joey wrote:More like "What is the point of space marines when you have the imperial guard?".

To be fair, without the Space Marines leaping headlong into an enemy held stronghold, gimping the leadership (some of the time), the wars would take forever to end. And telling Space Marine fables make all the Conscripts want to become big strong heroes in the Imperial Guard so that one day, he might get to shoot the nastier ones in the face.

Then again, wars of attrition are what most guard regiments specialize in, and holding the line forever isn't bad compared to losing outright in an assault.

Brother Thomas wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:There is not enough Adeptus Astartes to defend the whole galaxy at once, so they recruited trillions of weak, lesser men to hold off the enemy forces till they get there.

Those men & women who make up the Imperial Guard are the best each planet has to offer. Without the equipment, armour or enhancements of the Astartes, they've more balls than the Space Marines do - the Astartes are psychologicaly altered & conditioned so that they do not feel fear - Guardsmen willingly stand up to the nastiest things the Galaxy can throw at them with just their regular human bodies, their flak armour & their lasguns to defend themselves with. To overcome the natural instinct to flee, to muster enough courage to conquer their fear and to hold the line despite having their worst nightmares charging down on them - makes the Astartes look weak by comparison and makes each Guardsman look as though they have balls of adamantium.

All I heard was "Wah, The Astartes are way more badass"

Really? What I heard was "Courage is the overcoming of fear, not the lack of it,"

moom241 wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:There is not enough Adeptus Astartes to defend the whole galaxy at once, so they recruited trillions of weak, lesser men to hold off the enemy forces till they get there.

Those men & women who make up the Imperial Guard are the best each planet has to offer. Without the equipment, armour or enhancements of the Astartes, they've more balls than the Space Marines do - the Astartes are psychologicaly altered & conditioned so that they do not feel fear - Guardsmen willingly stand up to the nastiest things the Galaxy can throw at them with just their regular human bodies, their flak armour & their lasguns to defend themselves with. To overcome the natural instinct to flee, to muster enough courage to conquer their fear and to hold the line despite having their worst nightmares charging down on them - makes the Astartes look weak by comparison and makes each Guardsman look as though they have balls of adamantium.

All I heard was "Wah, The Astartes are way more badass"

Really? What I heard was "Courage is the overcoming of fear, not the lack of it,"

I heard "Aw man, I'm gonna make false accusations and then defend them to the death and then cry a little. Theres been plenty of times Astartes have felt fear, just not that often. Quit hating because the Astartes are superior!!"

Brother Thomas wrote:All I heard was "Wah, The Astartes are way more badass"

Ah, of course. Responding to someones posts & the points they raise with a reponse like this is clearly the way to start a good discussion about the mentality & psychology of both humans & the Astartes and how they compare - one group feel fear and, through great courage, overcome that emotion to do what they need to do to survive, compared to the second group who just don't feel fear.

So to continue in the vein of responses you have decided to post;

Ahm.

All I heard was "Wah," - think I've got the hang of this so far- "I can not create a comprehensive argument and thus will hide behind blind fanboyism of Space Marines."

Space marines are useful, but in all honesty unneeded. They number less then a million at any given time, and while yes they are powerful ,skilled with loads of weapons a Guard Unit can do what they do , only cheaper.

You throw some vets or well trained Guardsmen in power armor and they are not all that far, power wise from Sm's. Now if SM had numbers , I mean huge numbers it might just matter, they do not however, so it does not.

To die

Honestly the purpose is the hold the IoM together. Without the guard the ioM would not last five years.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Honestly the purpose is the hold the IoM together. Without the guard the ioM would not last five years.

This...
SM number but a million.
Guardsmen are uncounted in their numbers and unequaled in their firepower.
The Imperium is held together by the heros of the Imperial Guard.