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Assuming that they don't have an Inquisitor or Warmaster to expedite the process at any rate.

related - why can't the IoM devote entire solar systems to creating more marines? It seems like circular logic, but think about it as an investment - the more they invested, the more marines they'd have, the more power to subdue more planets, the more planets to create more marines.

As far as I'm aware, a lot of Chapters actually do "own" entire solar systems, being granted the right to recruit from every citizen on every world within their domain.

Also, the Imperium currently seems interested in keeping the status quo. They do occasionally found additional Chapters, but not as many as they probably could - and the Chapters that already exist are (mostly) bound by the Codex limitation of not exceeding ~1k Battle Brothers.

The Imperium doesn't really need more power to subdue more planet as this has never been an issue for the IoM before. When a new planet with a lost human colony is found, the IoM is rather quick to dispatch missions of Sisters Sabine preparing the target world for annexation, before the mighty fleet arrives to blockade the planet and land its ground forces. Then, Ecclesiarchal Missionaries continue to convert the general populace to the ideal of the Emperor, at which point local forces will become draftable for the Munitorum.

In short: I think the problem is that the Imperium doesn't actually discover new planets with a human population all that often that it would need additional forces to occupy it. Most worlds are hostile, necessitating a full scale assault, for which the Imperial Guard and Navy are far more important than a Marine Chapter. In such situations, the Astartes are more like a support force serving to break a hole into the enemy's defence which will then quickly be filled by the regular troops.

Melissia wrote:Assuming that they don't have an Inquisitor or Warmaster to expedite the process at any rate.

Well, even then the various "components" of an IG relief force have to be assembled - undoubtedly, a harsh commander can wrench a few days out of the schedule, but both the troops and their equipment still need to be mustered and picked up. It doesn't help the Imperium's cause that much of a fresh regiment's wargear would most often be stored on an entirely different planet than the soldiers recruited for it. The already standing regiments would be quicker to mobilize, but usually they don't just sit around and are already on some other task. Of course, here an Inquisitor or Warmaster would have little trouble pulling them away - though this could prove problematic for whatever job they did up to that point (example: pulling them out of an ongoing campaign, weakening the Imperium's presence on world B to help save world C).

Same reason the legions aren't around anymore. Too much power in one place runs the risk of corruption and creating another Badab War or Horus Heresy.

Lynata wrote:A good point, too. The Marines' big purpose isn't just to deliver combat power ten times that of a normal Guardsman - but to deliver it within such a narrow timeframe no-one else could (depending on the location, of course).

It takes weeks to even muster a small Guard battlegroup and have it assemble at a staging area. Weeks that, depending on the enemy's strength, goal, and tactics, may prove to be decisive. The Astartes on the other hand ... well, see Kaldor's post. The difference in time may prove decisive for the outcome of a war, but in the very least it heavily influences casualties of any human forces and civilians already under attack and waiting for reinforcements.

The Imperial Guard is an unstoppable steamroller. But it takes some precious time to get it rolling.

However, the space marine force that responds wont generally be large enough to stop whatever it is they are responding to. If they are enough, then the PDF most likely would have been able to take care of it alone.

If the PDF can't handle it then the thousand marines won't be able to either realistically. So you need the guard. And even though it takes a while for the guard to be mustered, the millions of PDF can handle it long enough for the guard to get there, though they will be effectively wiped out generally.

Ignatius wrote:However, the space marine force that responds wont generally be large enough to stop whatever it is they are responding to. If they are enough, then the PDF most likely would have been able to take care of it alone.

If the PDF can't handle it then the thousand marines won't be able to either realistically. So you need the guard. And even though it takes a while for the guard to be mustered, the millions of PDF can handle it long enough for the guard to get there, though they will be effectively wiped out generally.

Ah, but the PDF doesn't have the main strength of the Marines:

Naval superiority.

The Marines don't get there and quickly throw boots on the ground to start fighting the enemy face to face. They let the faceless millions of the PDF do that while their strike cruisers and corvettes, frigates, destroyers and escorts attempt to force the enemy fleet away or destroy it. Or in the face of overwhelming odds, perform guerrilla style actions against it. The Marines will only put boots on the ground when they absolutely have to (say, preventing an enemy force from retrieving an important relic or disabling an important piece of tech, or shutting down a daemon portal or webway gate or something)

They're never going to waste their lives just dying for civilians. Plenty more where they came from, after all.

Ignatius wrote:However, the space marine force that responds wont generally be large enough to stop whatever it is they are responding to. If they are enough, then the PDF most likely would have been able to take care of it alone.
If the PDF can't handle it then the thousand marines won't be able to either realistically. So you need the guard. And even though it takes a while for the guard to be mustered, the millions of PDF can handle it long enough for the guard to get there, though they will be effectively wiped out generally.

Whilst I usually advocate moderation in terms of assessing the Astartes' strength, here I would say you are underestimating their value as shock troops. PDF often lack real combat experience, at least against xenos or the forces of Chaos (who are currently the only factions likely to launch an invasion), and their combat capabilities might be far from what the Imperial Guard and Navy support could do - both in terms of sheer training as well as pure availability of specialized vehicles such as superheavy tanks or fliers, not to mention options for orbital strikes. Were I to choose between a million men who lack long range aerial transportation and a few hundred heavily armoured elite shock troops with the ability to strike anywhere on the world, I'd assume that a war could be ended a lot sooner with the latter.

I assume Planetary Defense Forces are even more of a slow juggernaut than the Guard, simply because they are even less professional (not counting "special" worlds such as Cadia) and less mobile. This interpretation was, of course, heavily influenced by the material I've been reading, and the lack of consistency between the fluff means that people's opinions on details such as these will differ - so if all of this seems entirely incompatible to your own vision, don't be confused.

Personally, I thought that the PC game "Final Liberation" (which has probably done much to cement my opinion) did a rather good job at portraying the role and capabilities of the various Imperial forces. Basically, in its campaign, the planet Volistad is invaded by Orks. Its PDF fails miserably in pushing them back, so their governor issues a call for help. Space Marines arrive and establish a secure landing zone. After this is done, the Imperial Guard takes over and engages in full scale war whilst the Marines board their craft and leave (they would've probably stuck around and done some more damage to the Orks' infrastructure on the planet, but iirc their Chapter had a crusade going on so they were in a hurry to meet up with their Battle Brothers again).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3_SAlmYJno
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v5nksCCWsQ
It's no studio material, but I thought it fits in well with what I've read by GW.

Kaldor wrote:They let the faceless millions of the PDF do that while their strike cruisers and corvettes, frigates, destroyers and escorts attempt to force the enemy fleet away or destroy it.

Now that would be why the Imperial Navy exists. The Marines' fleets are generally geared for breaking through blockades and safely delivering their troops. Doesn't mean that they won't hesitate to engage an enemy fleet (obviously), just that this isn't really their job and they wouldn't perform as well in it.

Lynata wrote:

Kaldor wrote:They let the faceless millions of the PDF do that while their strike cruisers and corvettes, frigates, destroyers and escorts attempt to force the enemy fleet away or destroy it.

Now that would be why the Imperial Navy exists. The Marines' fleets are generally geared for breaking through blockades and safely delivering their troops. Doesn't mean that they won't hesitate to engage an enemy fleet (obviously), just that this isn't really their job and they wouldn't perform as well in it.

Very true, and again it's an issue of response times. The Marines aren't going to bother landing forces on the planet if the enemy fleet is overwhelmingly powerful. That's just giving the enemy some target practice for their orbital bombardments. And they aren't going to engage that overwhelmingly powerful fleet either. As you say, they aren't designed with naval engagements as their first priority.

But they are a multi-role rapid response force that can do just about anything that needs to be done, and do it much more quickly than the IG and Navy can. They can get in-system, make accurate assessments, and then have the tools to do what needs to be done.

Aye - makes them look like the Imperium's firefighters, come to think of it.

nomotog wrote:SM can also be temperamental. Refusing to do work that is beneath them like guarding a convoy.

Pre heresy death guard didn't seem to care

bobsy99 wrote:

nomotog wrote:SM can also be temperamental. Refusing to do work that is beneath them like guarding a convoy.

Pre heresy death guard didn't seem to care

Yeah, it's not like being delegated to inglorious tasks made them titchy at all.

Kanluwen wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Crimson-King2120 wrote:As stated earlier the space marines are nice to have but not neccesary for the survival of the empire simply put the imperium can do without the space marines but not the imperial guard

This is pretty much the answer to this thread.

No, it's not.

It's an answer to this thread. It is not the only one, nor is it necessarily the correct one.

Without the Imperial Guard, the Imperium would suffer a quick death.
Without the Astartes, the Imperium would suffer a lingering death; shrinking and shrinking before their final collapse.

Hrm, that's what the Imperium is already doing at the end of the current timeline. Still, spessmuhreens are good to have. At least they can either turn the population of your average, savage stoneage world into something useful or, in the case of the saner chapters, a normal world into a well regimented, highly productive "paradise" ( fascist hellhole for contemporary people, paradise for most 40k people).
Having a highly mobile strikeforce and, most of all, an incredible useful propaganda tool is also quite nice.

sierra 1247 wrote:space marines are literarlly just huge guys with all the bigass guns, the pussy bio engineering and power armour, guardsmen dont need that crap, they just grab whats pretty much cardboard armour and a laser kalashnikov. lets face it, guardsmen are real men

I wouldn't call marines pussies. They became marines for a reason, because they were hardcore violent pschopaths. The bio-engineering and power armour are necessary because they do stuff that's ten times harder than what guardsmen do, like drop podding into the heart of a Tyranid horde to kill synapse creatures rather than simply holding the line, or going into the heart of Commoragh and still two-smacking the Dark Eldar. While I appreciate that Guardsmen have balls of steel, considering they're but normal men, Marines also do, but have just been selected to do the harder stuff, and so need better equipment. This doesn't however make them pussies, it's just logical, because let's face it, if you want to clear out a space hulk or teleport into Ork ships and blow them up from the inside with melta-charges, power armoured troops would get the job done, while sending in Guard would be a complet waste of time.

Another point I have to add to this discussion; although there may only be a million Space Marines or so, they are still vitally important. Simply by comparing the number of Guard to Marines we see that these numbers indicate that Marines seem to play a small part in the defence of the Imperium. However, the crucial factor that makes Marines considerably important isn't their numbers as we all know, it's that they're in the right places at the right times, due to their autonomous nature and not having to rely on the Imperial Navy. This means that their fewer numbers are multiplied almost, because they're being used more often and efficiently. So while Marines may not be as vital to the defence of the Imperium as Guardsmen, they are still quite considerable, certainly more so than SoB and Stormtroopers, and the Imperium would feel considerable strain at their loss, especially in the fight against the Tyranids.