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1hadhq wrote:Your layout , Hunterindarkness , just jumps across the whole bunch of underlings involved but still can't deny the increased response time generated from requesting orders from your warmaster. Orders are a definitive trait of the Guard you know. So if the comms are cut, what shall those "interceptors" do? Act on their own? A new Badab war, Guard style?

Already happens to guard units occasionally anyway. But more to the point, with the Guard it's far less likely to happen because they are not separate from the Imperium as the Marines are.

1hadhq wrote:Not saying the Guard cannot stay loyal, but I doubt the chances of them resisting the insanity that is the 40k verse as well as those who have been created for WAR.

Oh please, the Space Marines only barely manage said resistance and do not have a very good record of resisting it (compared to, say, Sisters of Battle), certainly they manage it no better-- and hell, in FFG's roleplay system, there's no boon that Marines have that prevents corruption any more than the average Guardsman has.

1hadhq wrote:Are there any reports of Guard catching the fast xeno raiders out there

Yes, Guard has won against the Dark Eldar, even on the offense.

1hadhq wrote:Are there any hints on Guard successfully acting as a rapid reaction force?

Fifth Ciaphas Cain book has a small-scale example of this, Guard uses valkyries to rapidly react to Tyranid incursions in the unique geography of the planet.

1hadhq wrote:But I am not a fan of the latest installment of creatures like chenkov. Sure the masses recrutable are an advantage of the IoM and it doesn't look like the numbers given hint on a war-footing at all. The ressources to transport and supply them deserve consideration tough.

Yes it does. The Imperium needs numbers to both defend and capture worlds (something the Space Marines are woefully inept at doing). Resources and supplies can also be confiscated as spoils of war, and in turn be used against the defending enemy if needed, and it is not unheard of that Imperial Guard Regiments to find alternative methods of supplies when there are none being delivered (as throwing empty Las Gun batteries into open fires to slightly reacharge them) or use the enemies munitions and resources.

Not sure if I think in absurdly false ways, but generally the combined forces approach may fit the multiple organizations construct that imperial forces are , more often than not best.

But the Imperial forces don't work in tandem with each other, and hardly 'combine' forces effectively. Space Marines often refuse the council of Imperial Generals. Arch-Confessors and Cannonnes' could care less what either group does. Imperial Generals are left with doing all the heavy lifting. It doesn't matter what the Imperial Guard are trying to do, but if it lines up with the agendas the Space Marines have, its more a convenience than any thing else.

Kaldor wrote:So in response to an enemy attack, the lightning quick response time of the Astartes is the only thing allowing the Imperium as a whole to respond in any reasonable time frame.

The only thing lightning quick about the Astartes in the sense of responding is saying no. Depending on where the Chapter Fleet is and after deciding whether or not the planet is valuable in service to the emperor AND deciding what amount of force to bring, then they come if they want to, which could be weeks to months.

Unlike the Guard, who are more plentiful, would probably be diverted en-route from another warzone (while in-system or in neighboring systems) to assist the beleaguered planet. Guard just don't sit and wait, they're constantly moving like the Space Marines; a ponderous bulk of Regiments being shipped around constantly, ready to change course at the decision of Segmentum Command, which passes it onto the Warmaster/Imperial General.

Melissia wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Your layout , Hunterindarkness , just jumps across the whole bunch of underlings involved but still can't deny the increased response time generated from requesting orders from your warmaster. Orders are a definitive trait of the Guard you know. So if the comms are cut, what shall those "interceptors" do? Act on their own? A new Badab war, Guard style?

Already happens to guard units occasionally anyway. But more to the point, with the Guard it's far less likely to happen because they are not separate from the Imperium as the Marines are.

It would be less likely if Hunterindarkness kept the setup of the Guard. But it was changed to independence...and thus closer to the issue of
sedition. Leaders of the Imperial army started their own empires. Officers of the Guard aren't renown for a lesser chance to turn.
Imperium or not, distances to the capital/higher ups are more dangerous to unified groups than those used to act on their own.

Melissia wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Not saying the Guard cannot stay loyal, but I doubt the chances of them resisting the insanity that is the 40k verse as well as those who have been created for WAR.

Oh please, the Space Marines only barely manage said resistance and do not have a very good record of resisting it (compared to, say, Sisters of Battle), certainly they manage it no better-- and hell, in FFG's roleplay system, there's no boon that Marines have that prevents corruption any more than the average Guardsman has.

IIRC the warmaster took forces who weren't astartes with him into that war, something along a great portion of army and mechanicum elements. Sure marines aren't perfect, but they can't be as their source are humans and they got their character and thus behaviour from there. I'd still put more faith into the ones who focus their thoughts on a purpose.

Melissia wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Are there any reports of Guard catching the fast xeno raiders out there

Yes, Guard has won against the Dark Eldar, even on the offense.

1hadhq wrote:Are there any hints on Guard successfully acting as a rapid reaction force?

Fifth Ciaphas Cain book has a small-scale example of this, Guard uses valkyries to rapidly react to Tyranid incursions in the unique geography of the planet.

A ciaphas cain citation from you? Didn't expect that.

Methinks the example of the 'offensive' against DE involves a bunch of very arrogant ones who cannot believe the mon'keigh dare to attack, right? Otherwise those spiky space elfs got the means to get away to fast to be caught. At least by the Hammer of the Emperor...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KplKeegan wrote: or use the enemies munitions and resources.

The direct path to have the mark of the heretic put upon you.
Either the church declares you tainted if it was from the arch-enemy or its consorting with xenos if it was of alien design.
Your lucky if this reqisited ressources are taken from "normal" humans.
At least its just the munitorum complaining about it then..

KplKeegan wrote:But the Imperial forces don't work in tandem with each other, and hardly 'combine' forces effectively.

They were effectively working together, before that civil war called HH.
Trust was lost as the first victim of that war.

Yes I know we can't have a effective combination of forces , as that would end the eternal war too soon.
But OtoH there are plenty of examples where they get their act together and so I don't see this general refusal to combine forces as a given.

1hadhq wrote:Methinks the example of the 'offensive' against DE involves a bunch of very arrogant ones who cannot believe the mon'keigh dare to attack, right? Otherwise those spiky space elfs got the means to get away to fast to be caught. At least by the Hammer of the Emperor...

If I recall correctly, it was with valkyries. But my point was that the Guard IS capable of lightning strikes, in fact, the only thing that the Guard lacks is the drop pod, and frankly the Dark Eldar are going to dodge those too if you think they can dodge being harried by valkyries, which can actually move to chase unlike drop pods.

1hadhq wrote:



You did notice that the Guard is part of the tithe paid and thus it isn't going to be anything else than what the Administratum demanded as a tithe? The Munitorum takes over when the Guard is handed to its new masters.
So you first have to have the tech level right on that system and/or enough wealth to buy this equipment. Then you need to have the munitorums agreement to supply your contribution. Which is a Guard unit that differs from their usual ones.
That doesn't sound like something easily done.
Its expensive, you got to deal with the Imperial bureaucracy, the role model for the term "immobile object" itself, and after some millenia you may have the papers to begin to assemble this Guard unit. Isn't it easier to use what is already available?

Yes it takes over, however it also supplies at the level the unit needs. Once a you get to low, then new tide influx from said would are brought in to fill the ranks or the unit is disbanded and scattered. soldiers are simply part of a tithe, gear, and materiel are also part of those tithes. The Munitorum has already agreed to such things once they accepted the unit as a tithe. You think Lathe worlds for instance could not make high end gear?

1hadhq wrote:

How do they flood the place? Got some examples of this?
And I'd love to see where these worlds are, who may supply such gear. A map may help...or at least where you got this from.
If I may ask.

I am not sure where you are getting the term "flood the place" But yeah any high tech world that for insatace can build STC armored units and ships or a lathe world can easily churn out Power armor ,,bolters, flamers and any other numbers of gear. Bolters are not uncommon with in the guard. As fr where I get it, mostly from books and the RPG side. I can give you a list of worlds off hand that can do the very thing from the Calixis sector.

the Laths:Het,Hadd,Hesh
Scintilla
prol ix
Cantus,
Grove's fall
,Solomon,
Canopus,
Frnksworld,
Heredrin,
Singurd IV
,Samson Iv,
Guytoga
Braspine,
Tephaine,
Trach,
Pricty,
Lo,
Laskin,
Ferviuos,
Thical,
Landunder
,Malfi,
Zwehans World,
Alctra,
Vaxanide
Lind


Each of these worlds could tithe a dozen or more regiments per year and have the tech level, manufacturing and population level to churn out armor units and yes power armor. You can find power armor on each of these woulds without much trouble.

1hadhq wrote:

Call the cyber enhanced all you want. They are just a different form of marines if you improve/upgrade humans.
Marines are also able to interact with their gear differently than any power armor variant you seem to think of. So no, its not incorrect.

Marine use a pice of cyber gear called a black caprice implanted within them to interface with the power armor. Even without that gear a normal human is not much less fluide then a SM, not enough to really matter to someone being attacked not in power armor. so yes still correct.

1hadhq wrote:

Explained this before, but I'll grant you the term specialized isn't a good choice of mine.
Guard was separated from the fleet and became an army of units dedicated to one type of regiment after the heresy.
They are no longer a real army of different types of companies ( infantry, artillery, mounted troops, etc ) but have to be of 1 clearly defined type.
This prevents the Guard from losing whole armys as "pure" infantry unit for example may not have the tools to survive against the wrath of the Guard elements still loyal.

A chapters whole fleet is not a tenth of what the navy uses to ferry a full planetary invasion action. Having a dedicated assigned transport under one command would be no worse then what the SM now are, accept they would be under the chain of command of the warmaster, unlike the SM's They are less a threat then the current SM chapter set up honestly..

1hadhq wrote:

Really? Net loss of giving up a working concept to replace something with a untested and most likely actively opposed concept as it grows the paperwork and goes against traditions in an rather backwards oriented sci-fantasy-verse isn't zero.

Yes it is zero, if all the SM were gone the IoM and the Guard would adapt to replace them. In tyhe long term the SM's are the replaceable unit, you can not however replace the Guard. what I am saying that if they had to they could replace the SM's with Guard units. Would they be as good man per man? No, would they get the job done? Yes. In the same term you could not replace what the Guards do with SM's.



Also I never said the guard would all be independent I said you could place a regiment ( larger then a chapter BTW) per sector on independent "Interceptor duty" they still could be sent orders but without them fill the very same role a chapter does.

Or they could give the role to the Sisters, who are quite suited to it anyway.

1hadhq wrote:Yes I know we can't have a effective combination of forces , as that would end the eternal war too soon.
But OtoH there are plenty of examples where they get their act together and so I don't see this general refusal to combine forces as a given.

But such actions are uncommon among engangements that don't threaten entire spans of systems (Like the Defense of Ultramar, Armageddon, the Kryptman incident, The 13th Black Crusade...), so you cannot state that combining forces happens often enough to warrant the Imperium's military being, as a whole, cohesive.

Melissia wrote:Or they could give the role to the Sisters, who are quite suited to it anyway.

Agreed they are already Space marine "Lite" anyhow and far, far less likely to fall to chaos.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Melissia wrote:Or they could give the role to the Sisters, who are quite suited to it anyway.

Agreed they are already Space marine "Lite" anyhow and far, far less likely to fall to chaos.

Yeah but the Ecclesiarchy has hardly been the picture of innocence throughout it's existence.
The Reign of Cardinal Bucharis and the Age of Apostasy are both directly the fault of the Ecclesiarchy...
The Imperium is segmented for a reason...

I find something interesting about being them being the only guys who dont have anything super special about them.

purplefood wrote:Yeah but the Ecclesiarchy has hardly been the picture of innocence throughout it's existence.

The Sisters, however, have been paragons of virtue in comparison to both the higher ups of both the Ecclesiarchy and the Guard..

Hunterindarkness wrote:
yes it takes over, however it also supplies at the level the unit needs. Once a you get to low, then new tide influx from said would are brought in to fill the ranks or the unit is disbanded and scattered. soldiers are simply part of a tithe, gear, and materiel are also part of those tithes. The Munitorum has already agreed to such things once they accepted the unit as a tithe. You think Lathe worlds for instance could not make high end gear?

I am either the most confusing poster of dakka or you try really hard to evade my point.
The tithe, isn't set by the Governor.
He has to pay what the Administratum calls for.
So if they demand Leman Russes, your type of unit isn't accepted and thus doesn't count. Its most likely rejected and the Governor accused of many things, but surely not to be a good loyal representative of the Lords of Terra.
Secondly, Guard has no replacements for losses sent to. They just fight until their strength drops below acceptable levels. They either retire or have to join another depleted force, which isn't always seen as worth the ressources spent on the newly combined unit.
Thirdly, I don't recall any world called lathe as part of the background supplied by GW. Maybe a third party product?
Aaah found it. Down there, so I'll care for that in the next reply.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

How do they flood the place? Got some examples of this?
And I'd love to see where these worlds are, who may supply such gear. A map may help...or at least where you got this from.
If I may ask.

I am not sure where you are getting the term "flood the place" But yeah any high tech world that for instance can build STC armored units and ships or a lathe world can easily churn out Power armor ,,bolters, flamers and any other numbers of gear. Bolters are not uncommon with in the guard. As for where I get it, mostly from books and the RPG side. I can give you a list of worlds off hand that can do the very thing from the Calixis sector.

Cut out the long list of third party stuff. IMO our problem is, your basing your statements on the RPG and mine are based on the TT.
First off, I took that term of flooding things from your post.
Second off, an RPG supplies a lot of things, for characters. Thats all nice until you realize RPG and TT are different beasts.
In a background written to support a TT game, its about armies and a stream of war/materials sent to keep them going.
In a RPG setting, nothing is restricted, because the aim of the game is to provide an exhaustive list of things for the players.
The TT however, restricts because its aim is to support the image of rare things, of a Imperium tied down by its bureaucracy and the publication of GW , especially those about the Guard and the Munitorum , cast a picture of mass produced gear and the dozens of ways your comissar may find your care for the supplies of the IG wanting and acting upon it.
Cannot find any of these easily produced in great numbers claims of your RPG sources in the TT publications at all. Seems 2 companies got a different POV. I for one, am with GW as it is the owner of the IP and most likely still working on the fluff when the contracts have ended.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Call the cyber enhanced all you want. They are just a different form of marines if you improve/upgrade humans.
Marines are also able to interact with their gear differently than any power armor variant you seem to think of. So no, its not incorrect.

Marine use a pice of cyber gear called a black carapace implanted within them to interface with the power armor. Even without that gear a normal human is not much less fluide then a SM, not enough to really matter to someone being attacked not in power armor. so yes still correct.

Huh
Marines fight in PA like itsb an expansion of their body. I would call that a clear major advantage.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
Yes it is zero, if all the SM were gone the IoM and the Guard would adapt to replace them. In tyhe long term the SM's are the replaceable unit, you can not however replace the Guard. what I am saying that if they had to they could replace the SM's with Guard units. Would they be as good man per man? No, would they get the job done? Yes. In the same term you could not replace what the Guards do with SM's.

Adapt to what exactly To the fact they lost a useful tool and cannot replace it, no matter how hard some may like to believe.
The Guard does not get the job done. If it could, the Emperor would not waste his time creating astartes and primarchs.
I could replace the Guard. If I was allowed to expand on existant fluff a bit and alter a few events.
Let me say , I do not suggest his work as a good read, but for this thread I will base an example how to replace Guard on a recent BL publication from Mr Thorpe, a former game designer and now working for BL. Pull forth Deliverance Lost.
There we find the original source of the geneseed, granted by the Emperor to Corax to rebuild his Legion.
Some of us may know, it got stolen by the Alpha legionaires, but before that it was pretty potent at creating superior marines and did it much faster then it was possible for the Legions. All I have to change is to keep it and use it. Use it to expand the Legions further than GW did in their newest take where they grow from 10.000 to 100.000 per Legio. I mean, if this marine equipment would be so easy to produce as you seem to think, those rapidly created thousands upon thousands of marines would surely add up to millions and given the amount of humans in this Galaxy it is not a challenge to alter the size from hundred thousand to millions, to several hundred millions of enhanced and well equipped warriors dedicated to conquer and reclaim what belongs to mankind. See its not impossible.
But it would ruin the story of the HH and make the basic human rather useless in battle.
The guard does not define its purpose on replacing anyone else. And the purpose of the guard is or was the subject of this thread.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
Also I never said the guard would all be independent I said you could place a regiment ( larger then a chapter BTW) per sector on independent "Interceptor duty" they still could be sent orders but without them fill the very same role a chapter does.

You follow orders or you do not. There is no choice for Guard. No switching on and off.

Melissia wrote:

purplefood wrote:Yeah but the Ecclesiarchy has hardly been the picture of innocence throughout it's existence.

The Sisters, however, have been paragons of virtue in comparison to both the higher ups of both the Ecclesiarchy and the Guard..

True but don't the Sisters answer to the Ecclesiarchy?

1hadhq wrote:

I am either the most confusing poster of dakka or you try really hard to evade my point.
The tithe, isn't set by the Governor.
He has to pay what the Administratum calls for.
So if they demand Leman Russes, your type of unit isn't accepted and thus doesn't count. Its most likely rejected and the Governor accused of many things, but surely not to be a good loyal representative of the Lords of Terra.
Secondly, Guard has no replacements for losses sent to. They just fight until their strength drops below acceptable levels. They either retire or have to join another depleted force, which isn't always seen as worth the ressources spent on the newly combined unit.
Thirdly, I don't recall any world called lathe as part of the background supplied by GW. Maybe a third party product?

Aaah found it. Down there, so I'll care for that in the next reply.

Not trying to evade a thing, just not sure what you are getting at. The governor does indeed provide what the Admin asks for, however different worlds do have different tech levels. When if comes time to replace parts or units then that is also provided to the Admin as part of the worlds tithe. And yes, guardsmen do replace loses, either by influx of the same world or by being broken up and sent to other units as reinforcements. Often a world will "Refound" a unit using the name of an old unit. Also a Lath world is one under control of the Admech and used as founry worlds. Same thing, diff name.

1hadhq wrote:


Cut out the long list of third party stuff. IMO our problem is, your basing your statements on the RPG and mine are based on the TT..

Well it is official, and sanctioned third party stuff, more reliable then the BL stuff and just as official You asked for a list of worlds that could do what I said, thinking I could not provide it. I have then you claim it does not count. I find that odd. It is an official product.

1hadhq wrote:


Huh
Marines fight in PA like itsb an expansion of their body. I would call that a clear major advantage.

So does everyone else. They have a slight edge in fluidity that does not translate to any game effect in TT and only a very small , minor one in the RPG. sure they more a slight bit faster, but not terribly more so and if they can have the implate as it is not part of the Astarte organs or transformation it can be used in normal humans and was before SM become the norm. Just like Power armor itself, it is Dark age tech and older then Astates.

1hadhq wrote:
Adapt to what exactly To the fact they lost a useful tool and cannot replace it, no matter how hard some may like to believe.

They can replace it good enough. They can make Guardmen "almost " as good and in greater numbers and faster. So what if they are not as good. They can do the same thing in the end.

1hadhq wrote:
The Guard does not get the job done. If it could, the Emperor would not waste his time creating astartes and primarchs.

By GW fluff the Empower was trying to make Human 2.0, he meant to make a human unable to be corrupted by chaos, when the primarches were lost he used the Astarte as a back up. He failed all round.

1hadhq wrote:
I could replace the Guard. If I was allowed to expand on existant fluff a bit and alter a few events.

How? The IG are trillions strong, hundreds and thousands of trillions a sector at any one time have billions of IG on active duty not counting PDF units.

1hadhq wrote:
Let me say , I do not suggest his work as a good read, but for this thread I will base an example how to replace Guard on a recent BL publication from Mr Thorpe, a former game designer and now working for BL. Pull forth Deliverance Lost.
There we find the original source of the geneseed, granted by the Emperor to Corax to rebuild his Legion.
Some of us may know, it got stolen by the Alpha legionaires, but before that it was pretty potent at creating superior marines and did it much faster then it was possible for the Legions. All I have to change is to keep it and use it. Use it to expand the Legions further than GW did in their newest take where they grow from 10.000 to 100.000 per Legio. I mean, if this marine equipment would be so easy to produce as you seem to think, those rapidly created thousands upon thousands of marines would surely add up to millions and given the amount of humans in this Galaxy it is not a challenge to alter the size from hundred thousand to millions, to several hundred millions of enhanced and well equipped warriors dedicated to conquer and reclaim what belongs to mankind. See its not impossible.
But it would ruin the story of the HH and make the basic human rather useless in battle.

Might want to cut out that third party stuff as it is not table top stuff Anyhow the gear is easy to produce, as far as that goes. You can churn out a few thousand with little trouble. However it is costly and often felt to be "Wasted" Look how real world militias work, troops do not often have the best gear they could have. They have the cheapest that does the job.

1hadhq wrote:
You follow orders or you do not. There is no choice for Guard. No switching on and off.

This is incorrect. You can and most militates do both. If your have standard orders of " Act accordingly to as you feel best" it does not countermand direct orders telling you to do something else.

purplefood wrote:True but don't the Sisters answer to the Ecclesiarchy?

The Sisters answer to only the Emperor in the end. Apostates and power-mad priests face the Sisters' wrath as much as, if not even more so than, the heretics that they are commonly seen hunting.

Melissia wrote:If the Astartes were to vanish (an unlikely scenario given how well they sell, but we're talking hypotheticals here), all it would take is a few votes in the Imperial High Lords of Terra and the Sisters could get their own naval force to act in the same way that Marines do

True, if the Marines vanished you could replace them with another force, but thats really the point. If you got rid of them you'd need to replace them with a very similar force. The role they fill is vital.


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KplKeegan wrote: Unlike the Guard, who are more plentiful, would probably be diverted en-route from another warzone

Uh, no. They're heading to that other warzone for a reason. IG are either fighting, in transit, or sitting on the ground somewhere, pretty much all the time. In the first two cases they are useless as a response force, and in the third it takes a LONG time to get them up and going, not least because you also need to rendezvous a Navy force to shuttle them around.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
The governor does indeed provide what the Admin asks for, however different worlds do have different tech levels. When if comes time to replace parts or units then that is also provided to the Admin as part of the worlds tithe. And yes, guardsmen do replace loses, either by influx of the same world or by being broken up and sent to other units as reinforcements. Often a world will "Refound" a unit using the name of an old unit. Also a Lath world is one under control of the Admech and used as foundry worlds. Same thing, diff name.

Reinforcement isn't happening. Trust the IG codices. The vostroyans are maybe what you are thinking of, but they are a bit special because of their history and the price to pay for their actions.
Sure, honored units will be raised again, but these are new units. New, as another tithe.
Established background of the IG is, Regiments fight until they cannot anymore. This wouldn't happen if reinforcements were incoming regularly. Regiments are sent far off, months even years to travel. And sometimes the admin forget who was sent.....
Maybe they return one day, maybe they settle somewhere. But one thing is undoubtable: replacement parts are supplied by the munitorum, not the world raising the regiment as a tithe.
I am not saying your POV wouldn't improve a few things for IG, but somehow its seems to differ from the background of 40k as provided by GW.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
Well it is official, and sanctioned third party stuff, more reliable then the BL stuff and just as official You asked for a list of worlds that could do what I said, thinking I could not provide it. I have then you claim it does not count. I find that odd. It is an official product.

I didn't aim to find something you couldn't answer. If you got that impression, your mistaken.
I was curious where you got it. Now, can't check those source I do not own myself.
You find it odd that I question a source? Why? Because there were never debates about canon/officiality of licensed and sub-companies products? If so, please do a search. You will find plenty of this.
I didn't claim it doesn't count. Just told you I prefer the publications of the company called GW themselves when it comes to validity.
And thus placed the rulebooks , expansions and codices above the sub-companies ( BL / FW ) and the licensed third party works.
A personal choice, I may make without invalidating your preferances.
The one statement I will question, is your idea of it being more reliable than BL.
It is not. It is a version of 40k and like authors of BL adapt the background to create a story, like game designers adapted a few things to create a game worth playing, a company aiming for an RPG will also have their own take. Its in the nature of the product.
Still, I am used to GW's attempts to declare most of the gear of the astartes not easy to produce. Even if that doesn't make sense.
Even if their course is obviously meant to have rare things only if done by forgeworld and lifting that rarity when they take over and now in plastic from GW! As an example of this: the Leman Russ Executioner of the Imperial Guard.
Shown as phasing out ancient variant , only supplied by a single forgeworld. Then it moved to the codex IG and became part of a multi-variant plastic kit. Guess where the fluff went? Guess where the restriction went?
> Out of the window... And there you go, please buy whole regiments of it...

Hunterindarkness wrote:
So does everyone else. They have a slight edge in fluidity that does not translate to any game effect in TT and only a very small , minor one in the RPG. sure they more a slight bit faster, but not terribly more so and if they can have the implate as it is not part of the Astarte organs or transformation it can be used in normal humans and was before SM become the norm. Just like Power armor itself, it is Dark age tech and older then Astates.

This slight edge isn't so small if you consider we are in 40k background here. A place where the fluff is part of this and in-game effects tend to be dismissed, not without reason.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
They can replace it good enough. They can make Guardmen "almost " as good and in greater numbers and faster. So what if they are not as good. They can do the same thing in the end.

No. They can't.
Your running in circles.
The Guard has a purpose, as laid out in the background section of rulebooks and codices for years and several editions.
This never changed, so we could call it consistant.
The representation of the IG cannot be separated from the game it is part of and their role in 40k isn't to do what others do, but to have their place and in this and in a Imperium consisting of a multitude of organizations, each with a role to play. The Guard fits into that mix.
As a faction that has its strenghts and weaknessess. As a part of the IoM that isn't free from political interference. As the slow but deadly Hammer of the Emperor. It isn't capable of the same style of warfare others are, its own is good enough and combined with the more specialized forces it contributes the body for the unstoppable war machine the forces of the IoM can be.
Can. If everyone knows its place.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
The Guard does not get the job done. If it could, the Emperor would not waste his time creating astartes and primarchs.

By GW fluff the Emperor was trying to make Human 2.0, he meant to make a human unable to be corrupted by chaos, when the primarches were lost he used the Astarte as a back up. He failed all round.

So if if you got no argument, you flee to heresy?
'The Emperor already had a first batch of super-soldiers to conquer Terra, the thunder warriors.
He had some gene - enhanced humans too, when the crusade began. Both concepts given up on.
The Primarchs were never meant to act alone. Thus astartes aren't a back up as you claim.
They are a lesser copy. A master copy, the Primarch. Even without the Primarchs he could create the Legions.
So you think he failed. He didn't fail to reconquer the realm humanity had settled before the age age, with his Legions and in just about 200 years. Faster than any gakky chaos minion or xeno may claim for its efforts.
OtoH, in a Guard thread a comissar should be acting on your disloyality towards the God-Emperor.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
I could replace the Guard. If I was allowed to expand on existant fluff a bit and alter a few events.

How? The IG are trillions strong, hundreds and thousands of trillions a sector at any one time have billions of IG on active duty not counting PDF units.

There is an example already. Seems you keep ignoring what I am posting...
The Guard got Cruddaced, and is now billions of regiments. Doesn't add up to thousands of trillions a sector methinks...

1hadhq wrote:
Let me say , I do not suggest his work as a good read, but for this thread I will base an example how to replace Guard on a recent BL publication from Mr Thorpe, a former game designer and now working for BL. Pull forth Deliverance Lost.
There we find the original source of the geneseed, granted by the Emperor to Corax to rebuild his Legion.
Some of us may know, it got stolen by the Alpha legionaires, but before that it was pretty potent at creating superior marines and did it much faster then it was possible for the Legions. All I have to change is to keep it and use it. Use it to expand the Legions further than GW did in their newest take where they grow from 10.000 to 100.000 per Legio. I mean, if this marine equipment would be so easy to produce as you seem to think, those rapidly created thousands upon thousands of marines would surely add up to millions and given the amount of humans in this Galaxy it is not a challenge to alter the size from hundred thousand to millions, to several hundred millions of enhanced and well equipped warriors dedicated to conquer and reclaim what belongs to mankind. See its not impossible.
But it would ruin the story of the HH and make the basic human rather useless in battle.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Might want to cut out that third party stuff as it is not table top stuff

Really? BL and its HH series is a sub-company of GW. No third party stranger and thjis author worked as game designer before...at GW.
Just throwing in.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
Anyhow the gear is easy to produce, as far as that goes. You can churn out a few thousand with little trouble. However it is costly and often felt to be "Wasted" Look how real world militias work, troops do not often have the best gear they could have. They have the cheapest that does the job.

Easy to produce if its for a RPG to grant access everywhere to a wide list of items.
Not so easy to produce if its main line the TT. They like this "relic" , " lost tech" etc pp idea too much.

Shall I respond to an inclusion of real life in a thread about a sci-fantasy-verse?
As far as I am aware of, this doesn't turn out to have anything in common. Real life lacks the handwavium and magic and what not.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
You follow orders or you do not. There is no choice for Guard. No switching on and off.

This is incorrect. You can and most militates do both. If your have standard orders of " Act accordingly to as you feel best" it does not countermand direct orders telling you to do something else.

Act as you feel best?
That so far from the system the IG uses as it can get. The IG is stuck with outdated concepts, rather acting like "send in the next wave", WW1 style charging against emplaced machine guns if you believe GW.
Conflicting orders are the last thing any one needs. Thats why orders are represented now with a risk of misinterpreting them.
Still its a 0 or 1 decision. Follow that order or don't. So correctly its impossible to ignore an order. And thats what I have stated.

The Guard cannot ignore organizations with a lot of influence, as this cardinal may talk to your superior and you are in trouble.
Doesn't happen to marines. Have this cardinal whine all he wants, its unlikely he gets to have it his way. Sure not every complaint is ignored, but the risk of IG is multitudes higher than marines when it comes to an attempt to ruin your day.

Kaldor wrote:

Melissia wrote:If the Astartes were to vanish (an unlikely scenario given how well they sell, but we're talking hypotheticals here), all it would take is a few votes in the Imperial High Lords of Terra and the Sisters could get their own naval force to act in the same way that Marines do

True, if the Marines vanished you could replace them with another force, but thats really the point. If you got rid of them you'd need to replace them with a very similar force. The role they fill is vital.

In that case we agree here. I think Sisters could do it better due to loyalty issues but that's an entirely separate argument, this thread is about Guard, after all.

1hadhq wrote:

Reinforcement isn't happening. Trust the IG codices. The vostroyans are maybe what you are thinking of, but they are a bit special because of their history and the price to pay for their actions.
Sure, honored units will be raised again, but these are new units. New, as another tithe.

I think you may be correct on what i was Recalling, however if a new unit was created to fill the role of the SM, it might well break the nominal rules on recruitment.

1hadhq wrote:
I didn't aim to find something you couldn't answer. If you got that impression, your mistaken.
I was curious where you got it. Now, can't check those source I do not own myself.

Sorry , mesageboard posting can sometime infure the wrong idea depending upon the reader.

1hadhq wrote:
You find it odd that I question a source? Why? Because there were never debates about canon/officiality of licensed and sub-companies products? If so, please do a search. You will find plenty of this.
I didn't claim it doesn't count. Just told you I prefer the publications of the company called GW themselves when it comes to validity.
And thus placed the rulebooks , expansions and codices above the sub-companies ( BL / FW ) and the licensed third party works.
A personal choice, I may make without invalidating your preferances.
The one statement I will question, is your idea of it being more reliable than BL.
It is not. It is a version of 40k and like authors of BL adapt the background to create a story, like game designers adapted a few things to create a game worth playing, a company aiming for an RPG will also have their own take. Its in the nature of the product.

See I place the BL stuff at the very bottom because it is far to contradictory. They as a whole seem to countermind the Codex and other fluff sources from the game. Whatever the connection the GW is, the BL is very wishy washy on consistancy and has none to very little. Each "series" of books is a whole different setting more then being set in the same place as the rest. They are just to hit and miss for me to place them as a reliable source. On the other hand FFG stuff as a whole is probliy more consistent then the GW stuff oddly, but that is more a lack of effort on GW part which is a real shame.

1hadhq wrote:
This slight edge isn't so small if you consider we are in 40k background here. A place where the fluff is part of this and in-game effects tend to be dismissed, not without reason.

the issue is which fluff? Gw is inconsistent and the BL is better off not brought up as they are GOD or just a wee bit better all depending upon the book and writer. The stuff I count is GW and FFG, which place them as damned scary,however the Edge is not something that can not be overcome with numbers.

1hadhq wrote:
No. They can't.
Your running in circles.
The Guard has a purpose, as laid out in the background section of rulebooks and codices for years and several editions.

Yes they can. You are not getting what am saying man. If there was a real need to make a "Unit" to fill the role of the Sm, then the guard could provide it. Not the current guard, not a replacement but they already field "Specialized " regiments. The current Guard would remain unchanged, but it would be very easy to tell some worlds "Craft me x type of unit". It would not be as good man per man, but it could do the job.

1hadhq wrote:
So if if you got no argument, you flee to heresy?
'The Emperor already had a first batch of super-soldiers to conquer Terra, the thunder warriors.
He had some gene - enhanced humans too, when the crusade began. Both concepts given up on.
The Primarchs were never meant to act alone. Thus astartes aren't a back up as you claim.
They are a lesser copy. A master copy, the Primarch. Even without the Primarchs he could create the Legions.
So you think he failed. He didn't fail to reconquer the realm humanity had settled before the age age, with his Leg

I am going off three online wikis and what I have read. The Plan was to feth with Chaos, it was to breed super humans to starve them. He thought he had. He was incorrect. And yes the Astarte were crafted after his "Master Plan" got pulled into the warp. The thunder warriors were not Astarte. He failed to do what he set out to do, starve the chaos gods. Good effort however.

1hadhq wrote:

The Guard got Cruddaced, and is now billions of regiments. Doesn't add up to thousands of trillions a sector methinks...

I do not follow man. The Codex gives a few hard numbers. Exsample a regiment is between 250 men for a super heavy tank regiment to 120'000 Men for a light infantry regiment. Now we know a world can raise betwen a hundren million and five million , it says so on page 8. This is per world. a poor ag world raise 5 million now, It says when Waraagh Grax hit Evey world in 10 Ly were ordered to pull an extra fifty regiments each. Now if we take the Codex as canon and its minmun of 5 million men per world, and yes the FFG sector map as it has worlds in a map. we get no less then 665 million troops per tithe in one sector, although the many hives would produce more but still that adds to trillions damned fast.

1hadhq wrote:

Really? BL and its HH series is a sub-company of GW. No third party stranger and thjis author worked as game designer before...at GW.
Just throwing in.

Really?,This I did not know and honesty makes me like them less. If it is an In House thing, then in inconsistency issues are unforgivable.

1hadhq wrote:
Easy to produce if its for a RPG to grant access everywhere to a wide list of items.
Not so easy to produce if its main line the TT. They like this "relic" , " lost tech" etc pp idea too much.

The RPG is not easy to get ahold of really, they have a really good system for rarity. That being said on a forge world, where you crank stuff out all the time and that is all you do is export stuff. "Rare" is not what ya think it is. They only may make a few thousand or hundred, and the coast puts it out of hands of almost everyone. But there is that Titheing thing again. Power armory is mostly unused by the guard because of its rarity, cost and yes SM taboo.

1hadhq wrote:

Act as you feel best?
That so far from the system the IG uses as it can get. The IG is stuck with outdated concepts, rather acting like "send in the next wave", WW1 style charging against emplaced machine guns if you believe GW.
Conflicting orders are the last thing any one needs. Thats why orders are represented now with a risk of misinterpreting them.
Still its a 0 or 1 decision. Follow that order or don't. So correctly its impossible to ignore an order. And thats what I have stated.

you are not understanding man. If a Unit were made to replace the SM, they would not be a standard Guard unit. The Guard already do the "Act as you think best" the Ranking offer in any givin section often has to make calls and act before he can get a response back from terra or his segaturm commander. This is also covered in the Codex. Unless they have orders not to do a thing, Guard high command structure always "Do as they think best"

Kaldor wrote:

KplKeegan wrote: Unlike the Guard, who are more plentiful, would probably be diverted en-route from another warzone

Uh, no. They're heading to that other warzone for a reason. IG are either fighting, in transit, or sitting on the ground somewhere, pretty much all the time. In the first two cases they are useless as a response force, and in the third it takes a LONG time to get them up and going, not least because you also need to rendezvous a Navy force to shuttle them around.

It is not unheard of or uncommon for entire regiments to be shifted during transit, by order of Segmentum Command or the Warmaster or the Imperial General. And the Guard are everywhere, more localized than Space Marines, so mustering Regiments either stationed on nearby systems or in-system (the latter usually the case), is not some arduous proccess you make it out to be.

Mustering forces completely outside of the system would take a some time, but regardless, the Imperial Guard would already be fighting by the time the Space Marines show up.

Just because the Space Marines are fleet based does not mean they're quicker on the response... Chapter Fleets are but specks in the sea of Naval and Imperial Guard assets.

KplKeegan wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

KplKeegan wrote: Unlike the Guard, who are more plentiful, would probably be diverted en-route from another warzone

Uh, no. They're heading to that other warzone for a reason. IG are either fighting, in transit, or sitting on the ground somewhere, pretty much all the time. In the first two cases they are useless as a response force, and in the third it takes a LONG time to get them up and going, not least because you also need to rendezvous a Navy force to shuttle them around.

It is not unheard of or uncommon for entire regiments to be shifted during transit, by order of Segmentum Command or the Warmaster or the Imperial General. And the Guard are everywhere, more localized than Space Marines, so mustering Regiments either stationed on nearby systems or in-system (the latter usually the case), is not some arduous proccess you make it out to be.

Mustering forces completely outside of the system would take a some time, but regardless, the Imperial Guard would already be fighting by the time the Space Marines show up.

Just because the Space Marines are fleet based does not mean they're quicker on the response... Chapter Fleets are but specks in the sea of Naval and Imperial Guard assets.

You're really way off the mark in all this. Space Marines are consistently portrayed as "first responders" and with good cause. It would be rare for a Guard force to be diverted en-route to a deployment, especially in time to reliably beat any nearby marines. They're huge, unwieldy fleets that are wrapped up in a logistical nightmare of men and machines readying for war. Reassigning them takes time and a lot of authority.

Marines, contrary to what you imply, do not just sit idle in their fortress monasteries. Even non-fleet based marines will undertake patrols of their sectors of space. If there's no trouble going on, they go out and look for it. And if a marine fleet was on its way to a hot spot somewhere and received a more pressing or interesting request for help from somewhere else, the commander of the force in question wouldn't need to wait on anyone's permission to divert, and wouldn't be slowed by ponderous transports.

At any rate, the fluff is pretty consistent. Marines, should they choose to respond to an invasion or the like, are typically first on the scene, but that in no way invalidates the role of the Guard. Heck, it seems like at least sometimes the marines that show up, assess the situation, take out what they consider worthy targets, then leave without once consulting anyone on the ground! The Guard would still have to come do the heavy lifting, especially if all the marines ended up doing was wrecking the planet's infrastructure even further.

They fill a vital role for sure, and it's which the Guard in general is poorly organized to replace, but the Imperium would replace them with something if they didn't exist. Probably just greatly expanding the stormtrooper regiments and giving them a much longer leash.

KplKeegan wrote:the Guard are everywhere, more localized than Space Marines, so mustering Regiments either stationed on nearby systems or in-system (the latter usually the case), is not some arduous proccess you make it out to be.

Mustering forces completely outside of the system would take a some time, but regardless, the Imperial Guard would already be fighting by the time the Space Marines show up.

Just because the Space Marines are fleet based does not mean they're quicker on the response... Chapter Fleets are but specks in the sea of Naval and Imperial Guard assets.

The only people in charge of the IG are the high lords of Terra. All orders, essentially, come from them. Before the IG are moved, the request must be passed up through the chain of command, through the notoriously ponderous and ridiculously slow bureaucracy of the Imperium until it reaches someone with enough authority to respond to it without consulting his superiors. And then comes the huge task of moving them, arranging transport, re-routing supplies, re-routing other regiments to rendezvous.

The space marines are fleet based, and yes this makes them quicker to respond, but much more important is the fact that they operate outside the government of the Imperium, and can respond without having to check anything with anyone. They can be en route the very minute they recieve a distress signal, while the IG might take months just to get that distress signal passed beyond the system, and months more to get the OK to move, and months more to get the logistics in place to move them. Even hoping for a freakishly lucky best case scenario, it would take the IG days to respond to a distress call.

KplKeegan wrote:It is not unheard of or uncommon for entire regiments to be shifted during transit, by order of Segmentum Command or the Warmaster or the Imperial General.

Happened to Gaunt a few times IIRC.

Kaldor wrote:The space marines are fleet based, and yes this makes them quicker to respond, but much more important is the fact that they operate outside the government of the Imperium

That's also what makes them not very useful, as they are disloyal.

Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:The space marines are fleet based, and yes this makes them quicker to respond, but much more important is the fact that they operate outside the government of the Imperium

That's also what makes them not very useful, as they are disloyal.

While that may be true, if the Sisters of Battle were given such independence then the odds of split-off factions occurring is much higher.

Hazardous Harry wrote:While that may be true, if the Sisters of Battle were given such independence then the odds of split-off factions occurring is much higher.

Not really. The Sisters already have a great deal of independence, they just don't have a dedicated navy. They also worship the Emperor as a god, and are loyal only to Him, not to a primarch or a chapter or whatnot.

Melissia wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:While that may be true, if the Sisters of Battle were given such independence then the odds of split-off factions occurring is much higher.

Not really. The Sisters already have a great deal of independence, they just don't have a dedicated navy.

Having their own fleet would mean a huge amount of independence. It's exactly this that gives the Astartes their greatest level of independence.

They also worship the Emperor as a god, and are loyal only to Him, not to a primarch or a chapter or whatnot.

I would think that any Sister would also be loyal to their Canoness or convent.

And they really are still under the auspices of the Ecclesiarchy. After all, it is the the Ecclesiarchy that runs the Schola Progenium (I think, it certaintly isn't the Sisters) and provides the new recruits. I'm not suggesting that they would put the Ecclesiarchy before the wishes of the God-Emperor, but they wouldn't ignore or turn against them unless there was really damning evidence of corruption or taint.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

You are not getting what am saying man. If there was a real need to make a "Unit" to fill the role of the Sm, then the guard could provide it. Not the current guard, not a replacement but they already field "Specialized " regiments. The current Guard would remain unchanged, but it would be very easy to tell some worlds "Craft me x type of unit". It would not be as good man per man, but it could do the job.

I get that your idea is to have a new organization replacing something " that has mysteriously vanished" and thats not the Imperial Guard but something else, something with a different purpose and post this when the subject is purpose of the IG. Mind you , the IG as is.
Now, you finally admit its not the IG you are talking of. Or did I spot there a tie to the IG?
The IG. Stays as is and Hunterindarkness just redirects a few sources...right?
I think you are ignoring the issues of your newly founded " is not IG but draws from its ressources" creation.
- the IG is the slow and steady, but deadly hammer of the IoM. It is not able to lay its hands on the most advanced stuff.
- the High Lords represent the IoM but also the interests of their faction inside the IoM. All of them would attempt to fill the gap the vanished marines left in the balance of power. None would like to see another independent organization rise.
- the marines couldn't be doubted the same way your new guys can. They were a creation of the Emperor, the one who everyone has sworn fealty to. Your organization, be it considered part of the IG or its own entitiy, cannot point at the Emperor nor can it rely upon those who aim to gain control over them if possible.
- the ones sporting their own fleets are the marines and the mechanicum. The first ones able to keep them, the second ones able to produce them so who should stop them having their own vessels? The only other but smaller group , the inquisition, has a few vessels but could request so much from everyone.... Your creation gets its fleet from? a) out of thin air as GW retconned that in b) waits a few millenia for its completion. c ) the IN. so uses the same as they did as IG and is as slow as IG...
- without the Emperor who could grant independence, your new creation is prey for all the politicing that reduces effectiveness of the IoM.
And the Emperor is the only one who wields enough power to just order something. The High Lords? Wouldn't create a strong and independent group.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
I am going off three online wikis and what I have read. The Plan was to feth with Chaos, it was to breed super humans to starve them. He thought he had. He was incorrect. And yes the Astarte were crafted after his "Master Plan" got pulled into the warp. The thunder warriors were not Astarte. He failed to do what he set out to do, starve the chaos gods. Good effort however.

Online wikis are believable but BL is not? Did you notice where the wikis got their stuff from?
At best, you have a short description and sources noticed.
And, like it not but the astartes and the Legions were always part of the plan as the plan was to create the Primarchs as leaders of said astartes. The assumption of the fanbase that the Emperor tried to starve chaos, is just that, an assumption not confirmed by GW itself.
Sure the thunder warriors were not astartes, as do the gen enhanced soldiery I was talking of. But both hint at a good grasp at bio-engenering and left over bits of tech that allowed to create things, the High Lords and anyone they could find wouldn't be able to.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

The Guard got Cruddaced, and is now billions of regiments. Doesn't add up to thousands of trillions a sector methinks...

I do not follow man. The Codex gives a few hard numbers. Exsample a regiment is between 250 men for a super heavy tank regiment to 120'000 Men for a light infantry regiment. Now we know a world can raise betwen a hundren million and five million , it says so on page 8. This is per world. a poor ag world raise 5 million now, It says when Waraagh Grax hit Evey world in 10 Ly were ordered to pull an extra fifty regiments each. Now if we take the Codex as canon and its minmun of 5 million men per world, and yes the FFG sector map as it has worlds in a map. we get no less then 665 million troops per tithe in one sector, although the many hives would produce more but still that adds to trillions damned fast.

We had a discussion of the size of the IG here, after the IG codex hit the shelves in 5th ed.
The conclusion was: the only hard number anyone could find was a bit that claimed the IG consists of billions of Regiments.
What a world can or cannot raise is irrelevant if we apply anything else than the examples given by GW and the in-universe POV.
In this case, a world paying its tithe in IG contributes something between 50.000.000 and 5.000.000 per anno ( BRB page 138 ).
Your highest number there is Armageddon, a important world caught in a war.
The basic unit is the regiment an thats where the choice of using the regiment and not the flexible size of them was made.
Going by a size from a few thousand to a hundredthousand, makes any guess at the known size if the IG impossible.
So counting regiments and what the codex says, a regiment is up to 20 companies. Each split in up to 6 platoons.
This means up to 120 platoons. A IG platoon isn't shown as a unit of thousands, usually hundreds serve in a platoon.
This obviously makes the idea of a Regiment of thousands viable, ( 10 squads of ten = 100 , 100 x 120 = 12.000 ).
50 Regiments of that size, are about 600.000. The extra raised troops aren't 5.000.000, as these are the tithe which is known beforehand and the locals can prepare for. Sure if you decide that every world on a map has to contribute 5.000.000 it will add up to pretty uncomprehendable masses and begs the question why isn't this Galaxy trampled flat beneath imperial army boots?
I would suggest to consider the tithe as a tax per anno and the requests of the munitorum as something different.
Another 50 Regiments to raise addtionally is most likely a 500.000 to 1.000.000 sized force.
By this logic, 50 = 1.000.000, 5.000.000 = 100.000.000.000, 1.000.000.000 = 20.000.000.000.000 , billion ( s ) = multiples of these....
So for the whole IG, sure trillions. For a sector? You may need a detailed map of the whole IoM and hard numbers for the tithes of every world.
Because our guesswork halfway fit the fluff of the codex, doesn't mean the company with no sense of scale didn't just pull these numbers
Remember, if we subscribe to " IoM = a million worlds ", billions of regiments are 1.000 + X Regiments per world.
BTW, since the PDF " doesn't count ", the real size of the force recruted is per the bit about the tithe = 10% of the PDF maybe an estimated
IG x 10.....

Your way to do this, is to assume everyone pays a tithe in troops. But that maybe isn't true.
Agri-worlds may export anything but their small workforce....
I'd really prefer a map that isn't fanmade and got detailed info. But IIRC there isn't a complete one from GW itself.

So still no, thousands of trillions like you posted is too much to believe.
And this is where I disagreed, not the size of the IG being trillions, thats common knowledge.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
you are not understanding man. If a Unit were made to replace the SM, they would not be a standard Guard unit. The Guard already do the "Act as you think best" the Ranking offer in any givin section often has to make calls and act before he can get a response back from terra or his segmentum commander. This is also covered in the Codex. Unless they have orders not to do a thing, Guard high command structure always "Do as they think best"

Here you admit this isn't about the Guard. I am fine with that, just maybe get there faster next time please?
Plus, unless they have orders is the same as they have orders and will not act on their own until contact is lost and they have no choice but to rely upon their assessment . Because, the IG is all about orders and having them is the usual status.

Melissia wrote: The Sisters already have a great deal of independence, they just don't have a dedicated navy. They also worship the Emperor as a god, and are loyal only to Him, not to a primarch or a chapter or whatnot.

The sisters tend to act as like they are so close to the ecclesiarchy, this great deal you talk of doesn't seem to exist.
Sure they are loyal to him, but they were loyal to goge vandire too...
So "not a primarch " or "whatnot " means they are not following a living saint, they are not acting as the lapdogs of high ranking members of the ecclesiarchy and they are thus perfectly represented in the background as all these small bits which show them differntly to your claims do not exist, right? why did I read of such behaviour then?

1hadhq wrote:The sisters tend to act as like they are so close to the ecclesiarchy, this great deal you talk of doesn't seem to exist.

The Sisters also regulate the Ecclesiarchy.

The Daughters of the Emperor were loyal to Vandire... until they learned of his crimes. Then they killed him in the name of the Emperor and ushered in a new age of the Ecclesiarchy. Reforms turned them in to the Sisters of Battle they are today, a regulating force within the Ecclesiarchy.

1hadhq wrote:


I get that your idea is to have a new organization replacing something " that has mysteriously vanished" and thats not the Imperial Guard but something else, something with a different purpose and post this when the subject is purpose of the IG. Mind you , the IG as is.
Now, you finally admit its not the IG you are talking of. Or did I spot there a tie to the IG?

New unit or no new unit the IG could do the same thing. The net effect of the lose of the SM is effectually zero. The IG has commando units already, the SM don't engage in mass space battles, the don't do invasion they do small hit and run stuff, that while useful can and has been done by IG units. It would be more effect to station a "U nit" as trouble shooters yes, but not a have to.

1hadhq wrote:
Online wikis are believable but BL is not? Did you notice where the wikis got their stuff from?

I only take into account sources from GW books, not BL ones. As it stands unless the HH books rewrites it the Emp crafted the Prims just as I said. This info should be easy for you to look up, if you really cared to do so.

1hadhq wrote:

We had a discussion of the size of the IG here, after the IG codex hit the shelves in 5th ed.
The conclusion was: the only hard number anyone could find was a bit that claimed the IG consists of billions of Regiments.
What a world can or cannot raise is irrelevant if we apply anything else than the examples given by GW and the in-universe POV.

In other words Ignore things that prove you incorrect. Gotcha.


I think we are done here.

I never meant to start a war here o.o