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GW fluff actually states several times that the IoM would perish without the Astartes. They need to explain why exactly a bit better....

Imagine the combined might of the Astartes and Guard as a spear. The Astartes are the very tip. The Guard are the rest of it.

Sturmtruppen wrote:Imagine the combined might of the Astartes and Guard as a spear. The Astartes are the very tip. The Guard are the rest of it.

And the man holding the spear, plus two other guys with tip-less spears.

But seriously, the guard are the glue that's barely holding the Imperium together. And IG are glue, then Astartes are rubber cement.

I've lost this metaphor completely.

Harriticus wrote:GW fluff actually states several times that the IoM would perish without the Astartes. They need to explain why exactly a bit better....

Propaganda and nothing more. Every single SM in exsistance could die all at once, it would have zero lasting effect upon the IoM. Other units would fill that role, Guard or SoB can easily do what SM do. Now if even 1/4 of the Guard vanished, all the space marines in the IoM would not handle what they do.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Harriticus wrote:GW fluff actually states several times that the IoM would perish without the Astartes. They need to explain why exactly a bit better....

Propaganda and nothing more. Every single SM in exsistance could die all at once, it would have zero lasting effect upon the IoM. Other units would fill that role, Guard or SoB can easily do what SM do. Now if even 1/4 of the Guard vanished, all the space marines in the IoM would not handle what they do.

Um, no?

The space marines are the interceptors of the IoM. Different job. Guard and sisters don't even got their own fleets so they can't move on their own. Makes it a bit impossible to stop threats without lenghtening the response time to a level where the enemy is long gone when you arrive.
The sisters are less numerous of you believe GW and the Guard can't handle the rapid assaults marines may perform.
I'll never get why anyone assumes the combined effort of the IoM wouldn't suffer if one of its tools is gone.

The duty of the Guard is to hold the dominion of mankind and to deal with the populace. Thier strenght is their number and superior firepower.
It is not organized or equipped to replace any other force of the IoM.

1hadhq wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Harriticus wrote:GW fluff actually states several times that the IoM would perish without the Astartes. They need to explain why exactly a bit better....

Propaganda and nothing more. Every single SM in exsistance could die all at once, it would have zero lasting effect upon the IoM. Other units would fill that role, Guard or SoB can easily do what SM do. Now if even 1/4 of the Guard vanished, all the space marines in the IoM would not handle what they do.

Um, no?

The space marines are the interceptors of the IoM. Different job. Guard and sisters don't even got their own fleets so they can't move on their own. Makes it a bit impossible to stop threats without lenghtening the response time to a level where the enemy is long gone when you arrive.
The sisters are less numerous of you believe GW and the Guard can't handle the rapid assaults marines may perform.
I'll never get why anyone assumes the combined effort of the IoM wouldn't suffer if one of its tools is gone.

The duty of the Guard is to hold the dominion of mankind and to deal with the populace. Thier strenght is their number and superior firepower.
It is not organized or equipped to replace any other force of the IoM.

So they do not have a fleet, thats what the navy is for. The SM really do nothing that can not be filled by other people. The guard givin the SM tech level can do the very same type of assaults. You place an "interceptor" regiment with its own dedicated space fleet and there you go. The SM are useful, but they are also very, very replaceable.

Without the Astartes, the Imperium would not exist as it does today. Or in the future. Whatever.

They initially led the crusade which united the lost human colonies. Of course by the end, they needed the help of the Imperial Army, but without them, the Imperium would be at about half it's size.

I agree, they shaped things, I simply said in the current setting time line they are not "Must have" Now SM legions, would have been something scary and effective, but with a limit at roughly 1 million they do nothing someone else can not do.

True enough. Honestly, I think the only difference they provide in current time is a quicker, or slower victory.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Harriticus wrote:GW fluff actually states several times that the IoM would perish without the Astartes. They need to explain why exactly a bit better....

Propaganda and nothing more. Every single SM in exsistance could die all at once, it would have zero lasting effect upon the IoM. Other units would fill that role, Guard or SoB can easily do what SM do. Now if even 1/4 of the Guard vanished, all the space marines in the IoM would not handle what they do.

I wouldn't go this far. I would say war efforts on Armageddon, the 13th Black Crusade, and against the Tyranids would all collapse and this would cause quite the trouble indeed.

I disagree, it would be a sitback or may speed things that are gonna happen up. But SM simply do not have the numbers to make any lasting effect any other group could not do as well.

Hunterindarkness wrote:I disagree, it would be a sitback or may speed things that are gonna happen up. But SM simply do not have the numbers to make any lasting effect any other group could not do as well.

I had simply meant individual battles, not the fate of the Imperium itself. A legion could speed up, and possibly turn the tide of a minor campaign, but there simply aren't enough to make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

aapch1 wrote:Are they a viable army?

The Imperial Guard, and its Horus Heresy equivalent, does more and has done more for the Imperium than the entirety of Space Marines combined.

Hunterindarkness wrote:


So they do not have a fleet, thats what the navy is for. The SM really do nothing that can not be filled by other people. The guard givin the SM tech level can do the very same type of assaults. You place an "interceptor" regiment with its own dedicated space fleet and there you go. The SM are useful, but they are also very, very replaceable.

You seem to miss the point of the marines.
The Guard is contributed as a tithe and does rely on the ressources of its recrutement world.
Organizations as the filthy rich ecclesiarchy aren't able to fill the battlefield with well equipped soldiery as numerous as some may like to believe exist, the skitarii aren't as numerous as the Guard and you still think the poor governors could supply something at a level comparable to marines?
Marines, who are gen-enhanced humans and thus survive without equipment where the human guard would not.
Marines , who got access to their tech because of the alterations made.
Marines, who are split up to ensure such well equipped force could turn in significant numbers.
Guard , who is split up and specialized to ensure they can't turn easily and live.
Guard, who is seperated from the fleet on purpose.
Guard, who got a different job in the combined forces of the Imperium. Even back at the day when it was "Imperial army" and had some interesting equipment ( per HH series ).
Guard, who is not as standardized as marines. Remember most of the marines equipment is compatible. Guard more often than not has just the same ammo requirements, which is enforced by the munitorum.
Guard acting on orders. Marines choosing their own targets. Short lived humans vs long lived marines. Independent marines vs Guard caught in the political quabbling of the IoM. No choice where to go vs freedom to act upon the interests of the Emperor.

Your concept doesn't fly.



The Guard has a purpose and suits it well. No need to add more strain to them.

1hadhq wrote:The Guard is contributed as a tithe and does rely on the ressources of its recrutement world.

Which can, admittedly, vary greatly in the quality of equipment, training & calibre of recruits it can provide. However for every world that contributes a poorly equipped & poorly trained Guard regiment, there will be several worlds producing averagely equipped & trained troops & at least one world producing a superbly equipped & trained force. It's a real mix in the Imperial Guard.

1hadhq wrote:Organizations as the filthy rich ecclesiarchy aren't able to fill the battlefield with well equipped soldiery as numerous as some may like to believe exist, the skitarii aren't as numerous as the Guard and you still think the poor governors could supply something at a level comparable to marines?

Depends on the world (by the way, the Ecclesiarchy doesn't use skitarii, that's the Mechanicus). Governor's don't want to send their best regiments to the Guard because they want those better quality troops there to defend them & their planet. However not all planets are selfless like that. Krieg raises tens of regiments each year whilst, from IA5, "where a comparable world might be expected to raise one regiment every decade." The Death Korp are some of the best & most numerous troops the Guard have to call on and they are very well trained, fearless & well equipped.

1hadhq wrote:Marines, who are gen-enhanced humans and thus survive without equipment where the human guard would not.

Depends on the Guard regiment in question. On a jungle world the Catachans will be in a true home-from-home and will find it easy to survive without equipment. Same with desert worlds & the Tallarn, ice/snow worlds & Valhallans, toxic/ash/isotope soaked worlds & the Death Korp*

*The Death Korps uniform consists always of their specially treated trenchcoats, gasmasks & full coverage of their body. If you were to consider this all as 'equipment' and that they're not allowed it then the Astartes don't get their armour and they'd perish on a world such as Krieg just as quickly as a regular human.

1hadhq wrote:Marines , who got access to their tech because of the alterations made.

That's nice for them. "Quantity has a quality all of its own." 100 lasguns > 1 bolter.

1hadhq wrote:Marines, who are split up to ensure such well equipped force could turn in significant numbers.

I assume there was meant to be 'could not'. I'll give you that one. The effect of the Legions turning shattered the Imperium -but- it was the Primarchs who made it occur - the Emperor could not believe that his favored son Horus had turned away from him. It took the sacrifice of the Imperial soldier Ollanius Pius, squaring up to Horus to protect his Emperor & being pulverised without thought by Horus, that made the Emperor realise his son had fallen completely.

1hadhq wrote:Guard , who is split up and specialized to ensure they can't turn easily and live.

No, they're not specialised so they can't live if they turned away from the Imperium - their specialisation is a result of the world they come from & what the environment they are used to. Such as the Harakoni Warhawks who make excellent drop troops because they use grav-gliders to hunt vapour worms amidst the mountains - as it says on the Lexicanum, they're fearless of altitude & experts at judging air currents. Or the Tallarn Desert Raiders whose planet is a great sun blasted desert - they know how to move across such a landscape quickly & with stealth to be able to place themselves in a position to attack an enemy force with the greatest advantage to them. Many regiments are more 'generic' and don't have a true specialisation, but on the whole the specialisations that each Guard regiment brings are of great use to the Imperium & the many, many worlds it fights upon.

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who is seperated from the fleet on purpose.

Yes they are split apart on purpose - this isn't just for the whole 'turning to Chaos' thing. It's more practical. If you have one person giving orders to run a land war & trying to give orders to naval fleets as well they're going to be overstretched & prone to making severe mistakes. It's why, in our history, we have had admirals for the navy & generals for the army - they each specialise in their role, know what it entails, how to command it best & thus can really concentrate on fighting the enemy to their best ability - afterall, is a Cadian General, who has fought upon many planets, who is an excellent tactician & strategist whilst fighting on a world - is he going to know how to best organise & order the Imperial Navy force that transported his men & their kit?

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who got a different job in the combined forces of the Imperium. Even back at the day when it was "Imperial army" and had some interesting equipment ( per HH series ).

But regular humans could still do the job the Astartes currently do. The Astartes have several advantages, yes, but the Imperium could replace them - they could create suits of carapace armour that are fully enclosed & vacuum sealed, change production from Godwyn bolters to the Godwyn-De'az the Sororitas use, and train them up to do the jobs the Astartes do. Of course there'd be far more of them available because they don't have to genetically alter each one for 5 years with a high chance of each recruit dieing...

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who is not as standardized as marines. Remember most of the marines equipment is compatible. Guard more often than not has just the same ammo requirements, which is enforced by the munitorum.

Almost every Guard regiment across the million worlds carries the lasgun. How is that not standardised? Yes there are many marks & patterns of lasgun but there are also many marks and patterns of boltgun. Same goes with special & heavy weapons. Armour for the Guard might not be quite so standardised in not having only 8 patterns, but all flak armour does the job it's meant to - protects against fragmentations & gunfire.

1hadhq wrote:Guard acting on orders. Marines choosing their own targets. Short lived humans vs long lived marines. Independent marines vs Guard caught in the political quabbling of the IoM. No choice where to go vs freedom to act upon the interests of the Emperor.

And where did the Astartes get their ability to be independant & think on their initiative from? Ah, humans. So why can't regular humans act independantly? If they were given the mandate & equipment to do it then they would, easily.

1hadhq wrote:Your concept doesn't fly.

I'm afraid it does. The Astartes could be replaced.

1hadhq wrote:The Guard has a purpose and suits it well. No need to add more strain to them.

But there isn't any strain on the Guard - there's so damned many of them that they have tons of troops to spare. Take 50 million Guardsmen, give them enclosed carapace armour that allows them to operate in a vacuum, arm them with Godwyn-De'az bolters, allow them to operate independantly and you have 50x more Astartes than there currently are who can do the same job.

Kanluwen wrote:To break it down even further:

Something like 90% of the fighting in the Imperium is done by the Planetary Defense Forces/Sectorial Picket fleets.
5% is done by the Imperial Guard supporting those PDFs.
3% is done by the Imperial Navy, effectively ending wars before they begin.
1% is done by the Astartes supporting the PDF/Imperial Guard or operating by themselves.
1% is done by the Sisters of Battle supporting the PDF/Imperial Guard or operating by themselves.


The Imperial Guard, believe it or not, is actually an "elite" force. Their lives are not spent carelessly despite what Chenkov makes people think.

I'd probably rate it:

75% Navy
24% IG
and the last 1% made up of Astartes and other actions.

Remember, the enemy can only land troops if they've already beaten the Navy, and the Imperium can only land troops if the Navy has been succesful. There'll always be a naval conflict before a ground planetside one, and often times there'll be no reason to land troops at all. When the enemy has no fleet and you do, you've pretty much got him over a barrel.

Joey wrote:More like "What is the point of space marines when you have the imperial guard?".

To sell models, why else?

SM is like the Special Air Service or Navy SEALs. Not going to win you a war alone, but can turn the tide of a campaign or battle.

Kaldor wrote:Remember, the enemy can only land troops if they've already beaten the Navy

Dunno why you keep having this delusion. It certainly isn't true...

I don't think you understand that space is a big place. Bigger than we can actually practically comprehend.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:The Guard is contributed as a tithe and does rely on the ressources of its recrutement world.

Which can, admittedly, vary greatly in the quality of equipment, training & calibre of recruits it can provide. However for every world that contributes a poorly equipped & poorly trained Guard regiment, there will be several worlds producing averagely equipped & trained troops & at least one world producing a superbly equipped & trained force. It's a real mix in the Imperial Guard.

Sure its a mix. But still the tithe depends on data collected by the bureaucrats, the same who are able to lose whole worlds, the same who aren't able to record the actual status of Guard Regiments correctly so no one has a clue how many are out there. Regiments became subject of reprimands and even called traitors if they didn't respond....whilst being dead for some time....

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Organizations as the filthy rich ecclesiarchy aren't able to fill the battlefield with well equipped soldiery as numerous as some may like to believe exist, the skitarii aren't as numerous as the Guard and you still think the poor governors could supply something at a level comparable to marines?

Depends on the world (by the way, the Ecclesiarchy doesn't use skitarii, that's the Mechanicus). Governor's don't want to send their best regiments to the Guard because they want those better quality troops there to defend them & their planet. However not all planets are selfless like that. Krieg raises tens of regiments each year whilst, from IA5, "where a comparable world might be expected to raise one regiment every decade." The Death Korp are some of the best & most numerous troops the Guard have to call on and they are very well trained, fearless & well equipped.

I've put both, the ground force of the eccesiarchy and the one of the mechanicum in this. Yes, I should have seperated it a bit to make it clear where I was going. Sorry.
Both, the church and the tech-magi have a lot of influence and ressources at their disposal. But none of them is able to equip a sizeable force at the level of the marines if they have to have standard humans to be their force. The mechanicum alters their recruts and wouldn't create something different just marines with another name. The tech-guard almost the same as guard, so skitarii are the closest to specialized troops it gets. At about 30 Legio's known, and skitarii supporting them in their thousands, not tens or hundred-thousands, it seems unlikely they are as numerous as the marines and everything supporting/protecting the god-machines of war would surly receive all the support the tech magi can afford.
The ecclesiarchy has some SoB, but knowing GW their numbers are "flexible" and the latest ones tend to make them one of the smallest forces of the IoM, maybe less than 10% of what marines got. And lately, they are stuck between an old witchhunter dex, a White-dwarfification,
different imaginations of various authors and the fanbase itself.
( Read one story myself just a few weeks ago, where the sisters acted as fanatically loyal servants to a corrupt cardinal and instead of the expected "not another vandire - BLAM" it got to the point where they killed the loyal Guard and died in a fire later.... talk about cleaning the orders . )
My point was: if two of the greater organizations can't afford to run an equivalent to marines and may not even intend to do so, how should singular systems be able to afford what Galaxy wide operating organizations cannot?

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Marines, who are gen-enhanced humans and thus survive without equipment where the human guard would not.

Depends on the Guard regiment in question. On a jungle world the Catachans will be in a true home-from-home and will find it easy to survive without equipment. Same with desert worlds & the Tallarn, ice/snow worlds & Valhallans, toxic/ash/isotope soaked worlds & the Death Korp*

*The Death Korps uniform consists always of their specially treated trenchcoats, gasmasks & full coverage of their body. If you were to consider this all as 'equipment' and that they're not allowed it then the Astartes don't get their armour and they'd perish on a world such as Krieg just as quickly as a regular human.

Agreed, Guard has a specialization towards the environment. But they still aren't surviving the same unhealthy tricks an environment as various as a whole galaxy can provide at the rate of gene-enhanced and specifically created to survive beings can.
Tallarn, your example, had Guard mentioned especially for their valour fighting in an environment they couldn't survive outside their vehicles when it was under attack in the HH. The marines there weren't hindered in any way there...

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Marines , who got access to their tech because of the alterations made.

That's nice for them. "Quantity has a quality all of its own." 100 lasguns > 1 bolter.

Back in the day when I got into 40k, to waste the lives of the Guard was not expected from an officer.
100 lasguns are nice, a blade to the throat of the leader of the separatists is still better.
So no, quantitiy is a bad tactic, inbreed to new gamers from RTS games and spamming units.
Its also not adressing what I am saying, the Guard can't use marine equipment or any equipment on that level as they don't have the interfaces to interact as naturally as those do.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Marines, who are split up to ensure such well equipped force could turn in significant numbers.

I assume there was meant to be 'could not'. I'll give you that one. The effect of the Legions turning shattered the Imperium -but- it was the Primarchs who made it occur - the Emperor could not believe that his favored son Horus had turned away from him. It took the sacrifice of the Imperial soldier Ollanius Pius, squaring up to Horus to protect his Emperor & being pulverised without thought by Horus, that made the Emperor realise his son had fallen completely.

1hadhq wrote:Guard , who is split up and specialized to ensure they can't turn easily and live.

No, they're not specialised so they can't live if they turned away from the Imperium - their specialisation is a result of the world they come from & what the environment they are used to. Such as the Harakoni Warhawks who make excellent drop troops because they use grav-gliders to hunt vapour worms amidst the mountains - as it says on the Lexicanum, they're fearless of altitude & experts at judging air currents. Or the Tallarn Desert Raiders whose planet is a great sun blasted desert - they know how to move across such a landscape quickly & with stealth to be able to place themselves in a position to attack an enemy force with the greatest advantage to them. Many regiments are more 'generic' and don't have a true specialisation, but on the whole the specialisations that each Guard regiment brings are of great use to the Imperium & the many, many worlds it fights upon.

Its part of the Guard background to transfer the Imperial army to the Imperial Guard with 2 changes:
- no more fleet of their own
- pure regiments of 1 type, so they don't have a real army but just infantry for example.
Again, sorry if I didn't get to the point I was aiming for.
Your right, specialization isn't the correct term.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who is seperated from the fleet on purpose.

Yes they are split apart on purpose - this isn't just for the whole 'turning to Chaos' thing. It's more practical. If you have one person giving orders to run a land war & trying to give orders to naval fleets as well they're going to be overstretched & prone to making severe mistakes. It's why, in our history, we have had admirals for the navy & generals for the army - they each specialise in their role, know what it entails, how to command it best & thus can really concentrate on fighting the enemy to their best ability - afterall, is a Cadian General, who has fought upon many planets, who is an excellent tactician & strategist whilst fighting on a world - is he going to know how to best organise & order the Imperial Navy force that transported his men & their kit?

Not trying to disagree in general, but in 40k the imperial army had closer ties to their transporting fleet units. Those have been cut too.
Anything else I agree with.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who got a different job in the combined forces of the Imperium. Even back at the day when it was "Imperial army" and had some interesting equipment ( per HH series ).

But regular humans could still do the job the Astartes currently do. The Astartes have several advantages, yes, but the Imperium could replace them - they could create suits of carapace armour that are fully enclosed & vacuum sealed, change production from Godwyn bolters to the Godwyn-De'az the Sororitas use, and train them up to do the jobs the Astartes do. Of course there'd be far more of them available because they don't have to genetically alter each one for 5 years with a high chance of each recruit dieing...

Carapace isn't as good as power armor and lacks a ton of features of it. So you are going to lower the efforts of every single member to the level of imperial stoorm-troopers and just swap the guns? Your troops aren't as resilient as the marines nor are they as good in HtH as they are. And we know wars are won with pointy sticks...sadly.
Enclosed carapace wouldn't provide the same mobility as power armor does. Enclosed means more stuff added. This means a company who loves blocky designs for Guard makes any imagination of them blocky and unwieldy too.
Lets see them deepstrike and stumble around as easy prey for these xeno and traitor marines. Happy now? you gave up on a force that could match the enemy to have nice victims they can slay.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who is not as standardized as marines. Remember most of the marines equipment is compatible. Guard more often than not has just the same ammo requirements, which is enforced by the munitorum.

Almost every Guard regiment across the million worlds carries the lasgun. How is that not standardised? Yes there are many marks & patterns of lasgun but there are also many marks and patterns of boltgun. Same goes with special & heavy weapons. Armour for the Guard might not be quite so standardised in not having only 8 patterns, but all flak armour does the job it's meant to - protects against fragmentations & gunfire.

Not standardized as marine equipment is compatible all around. Each piece of power armor is, all of their vehicles are, in general the traitors aren't looting just for trophys but to replace their own damaged equipment too.
The Guard, as stated by the munitorum in the munitorum manual, is standardized as much as the munitorum is able to enforce.
But the level of standardization that was part of the astartes from the day when they left Terra for the great crusade can never be reached by the Guard, which is basically a human force equipped with local gear plus some mandatory and standardized patterns of weapons.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Guard acting on orders. Marines choosing their own targets. Short lived humans vs long lived marines. Independent marines vs Guard caught in the political quabbling of the IoM. No choice where to go vs freedom to act upon the interests of the Emperor.

And where did the Astartes get their ability to be independant & think on their initiative from? Ah, humans. So why can't regular humans act independantly? If they were given the mandate & equipment to do it then they would, easily.

Can you see these greedy organizations struggling for control who are represented by the High Lords to grant independence to anyone?
Can you?
I'd say the marines have their independence because no one was able to wrest it completly from them after the Heresy. And a codex said so.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Your concept doesn't fly.

I'm afraid it does. The Astartes could be replaced.

Sorry, looks like thats more of an Icarus effort of yours there.
Close to the sun and down he goes....

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:The Guard has a purpose and suits it well. No need to add more strain to them.

But there isn't any strain on the Guard - there's so damned many of them that they have tons of troops to spare. Take 50 million Guardsmen, give them enclosed carapace armour that allows them to operate in a vacuum, arm them with Godwyn-De'az bolters, allow them to operate independantly and you have 50x more Astartes than there currently are who can do the same job.

And again, the Guard is all about orders. Orders mean a chain of command and the Guard loves its CoC...
The 50 million, non independent, without a fleet and reliant on the political decisions made by those who don't want to pay for this, aren't doing the same job as they lack the tools and the abilities. They even suffer from the absence of the Emperor. Who is, IMHO, the only one to make this concept of yours come to pass. Now, he created space marines and didn't put his ressources towards your idea.
Thus, your doubting him on Terra. May I call this heresy ?

Seriously, I see the general concept of yours, but 40k is knights in space and not sci-fi-improved human soldiery in space.
Thats why Guard got the short end of the stick and has to provide the underdogs of the background.
Still around and kickin after millenia against super-powerful xenos and threats from the warp isn't so bad. But why should they apply for another job? A job they are not meant for? To raise the casualty rate?

Don't get me wrong, but isn't this "marines are not neccessary" line one of the major misconceptions?
The IoM is a gathering of organizations, one of them the astartes who stayed loyal to the Emperor.
If we start to consider one of them unneccessary, how long does it take to ruin the whole image of the IoM?
We could get rid of others too. Until it isn't 40k anymore...

Hunterindarkness wrote:So they do not have a fleet, thats what the navy is for. The SM really do nothing that can not be filled by other people. The guard givin the SM tech level can do the very same type of assaults. You place an "interceptor" regiment with its own dedicated space fleet and there you go. The SM are useful, but they are also very, very replaceable.

The problem is the response time. Basically, the Astartes are a defensive force and the IG is an offensive one.

Now, that may seem counter-intuitive, but hear me out.

If an Imperial system is attacked, the very first line of defense will be any system ships in the area. We can assume that they will be easily brushed aside by any enemy forces. Next in line is the planetary PDF. We can also assume they will be killed to a man.

So what next? To get the IG moving the correct forms must be filled out in triplicate, forwarded onto the sub-sector commander, reviewed, lost, found, forwarded on to the sector commander, reviewed, lost twice, found twice, buried in soft mud for three months, forwarded on to Terra itself reviewed, and finally actioned. And then orders for levies to be raised in response to this incursion are issued, passed to the sector commander, misplaced, issued to the wrong sub-sector commander, returned to the sector command, lost again, found again, passed to the right sub-sector commander, forwarded on to individual planetary commanders who then issue the command for new regimental foundings.

So, the planet under attack will wait. But who will get there first? The ponderous behemoth that is the Imperial Guard? Or the Space Marines, already embarked on their own vessels and ready to respond?

So in response to an enemy attack, the lightning quick response time of the Astartes is the only thing allowing the Imperium as a whole to respond in any reasonable time frame.




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Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Remember, the enemy can only land troops if they've already beaten the Navy

Dunno why you keep having this delusion. It certainly isn't true...

I don't think you understand that space is a big place. Bigger than we can actually practically comprehend.

Of course it is, and it always has been. You don't just fly your troop ships past the enemy fleet and hope for the best. You have to scare it off, destroy it, or otherwise remove it first.

1hadhq wrote:Guard and sisters don't even got their own fleets

That's what the navy's for.


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Kaldor wrote:You don't just fly your troop ships past the enemy fleet and hope for the best. You have to scare it off, destroy it, or otherwise remove it first.

The Marines do all the time.

Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:You don't just fly your troop ships past the enemy fleet and hope for the best. You have to scare it off, destroy it, or otherwise remove it first.

The Marines do all the time.

Yeah? Like when?

Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Remember, the enemy can only land troops if they've already beaten the Navy

Dunno why you keep having this delusion. It certainly isn't true...

I don't think you understand that space is a big place. Bigger than we can actually practically comprehend.

Space is a big place, but to land troops in any significant number you're required to enter the orbit of the planet you're assaulting.

That dramatically reduces the area that the Navy would have to protect.

Kaldor wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:So they do not have a fleet, thats what the navy is for. The SM really do nothing that can not be filled by other people. The guard givin the SM tech level can do the very same type of assaults. You place an "interceptor" regiment with its own dedicated space fleet and there you go. The SM are useful, but they are also very, very replaceable.

The problem is the response time. Basically, the Astartes are a defensive force and the IG is an offensive one.

If the Astartes were to vanish (an unlikely scenario given how well they sell, but we're talking hypotheticals here), all it would take is a few votes in the Imperial High Lords of Terra and the Sisters could get their own naval force to act in the same way that Marines do.

They'd probably actually be a bit better in some ways because they're more dependable, loyal, and reliable (loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium first and foremost, rather than loyal to their chapter and THEN the Imperium) than the average Astartes, while they'd be worse in some ways (such as not having the superior toughness making the Imperium have to devise a different way than drop pods to get them down, although GW has had Sisters use drop pods in he past so who knows?).

space marines are literarlly just huge guys with all the bigass guns, the pussy bio engineering and power armour, guardsmen dont need that crap, they just grab whats pretty much cardboard armour and a laser kalashnikov. lets face it, guardsmen are real men

Kanluwen wrote:That dramatically reduces the area that the Navy would have to protect.

The orbit around a planet is also a very, very big place. In modern times, we'd be lucky to watch two percent of the sky at any given time, and assuming a 2000% increase in capabilities over 40k years that's still less than half. All it takes is for the Astartes vessel to get in, launch its drop pods, and then go battle the navy vessels (both to get dominance and to ensure the marines aren't bombarded with orbital lance strikes).

1hadhq wrote:
You seem to miss the point of the marines.

No I just do not think they fill a "ill replaceable role"

1hadhq wrote:
The Guard is contributed as a tithe and does rely on the ressources of its recrutement world.

This is correct, it relies upon the munitiurum (sp?) to Resupply it based upon the gear. As the IoM and the Munitiurum all use STC gear for the most part it is easily done, regardless of said Units tech level

1hadhq wrote:
Organizations as the filthy rich ecclesiarchy aren't able to fill the battlefield with well equipped soldiery as numerous as some may like to believe exist, the skitarii aren't as numerous as the Guard and you still think the poor governors could supply something at a level comparable to marines?

Well first off the Skitarii are Admech and they prob could flood the place but they are limited to standing army size. And yes some worlds could indeed supply SM leave gear. Power armor is not unknown and some of the wealthier world could indeed field units of powerarmor/ Carapace armor with very high level gear and or armor units.

1hadhq wrote:Marines, who are gen-enhanced humans and thus survive without equipment where the human guard would not.

While true out of armor the Astarte are better humans, however many worlds have "Better" humans. Ones who have evolved to be tougher , more resistant and stronger. And again wealthier worlds could feild "Enhanced" humans with cyber gear. That is all within reach and very doable.

1hadhq wrote:Marines , who got access to their tech because of the alterations made.

Incorrect. SM gear for the most part are simply larger versions of STC patterns. Nothing or almost nothing they field can not be replicated on a smaller scale. You can put cyber enhanced humans with power armor and bolters onto the battle field. Its just "Taboo" to do so.


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1hadhq wrote:Marines, who are split up to ensure such well equipped force could turn in significant numbers.

They are split up to do that yes

1hadhq wrote:Guard , who is split up and specialized to ensure they can't turn easily and live.

This is incorrect. A Guard unit goes where ever his warmaster tells him, they are always supported, heavily.

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who is separated from the fleet on purpose.

Yep so no one man can pull a Houris

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who got a different job in the combined forces of the Imperium. Even back at the day when it was "Imperial army" and had some interesting equipment ( per HH series ).

I think you mean did the blunt of the thankless work. They did more then the SM legions to hold together the fledgling IoM.

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who is not as standardized as marines. Remember most of the marines equipment is compatible. Guard more often than not has just the same ammo requirements, which is enforced by the munitorum.

This is true, but every sector had a hand full of worlds who could turn out SM class gear. You just have those make the "SM" units.

1hadhq wrote:Guard acting on orders. Marines choosing their own targets. Short lived humans vs long lived marines. Independent marines vs Guard caught in the political quabbling of the IoM. No choice where to go vs freedom to act upon the interests of the Emperor.

Your concept doesn't fly.

I disagree, you can easily have commanders that live as long as SM, rejuvenation and cyber ware allows humans to reach the 4,5 or eve 6 hundred year mark. And all you have to do is place your "Interceptor" units to "free action roaming status" with them answering only to the warmaster of a given segmaturm. You would see little real diffidence in action. You may lose more men per action, but you can far more easily replace them.

Net lose to the IoM none.

1hadhq wrote:Guard acting on orders. Marines choosing their own targets. Short lived humans vs long lived marines. Independent marines vs Guard caught in the political quabbling of the IoM. No choice where to go vs freedom to act upon the interests of the Emperor.

This is not a boon for the Space Marines. Thier independence gives way to thier own political strife within and without, and involving other Chapters. Picking and choosing is not freedom to those getting ignored, it is arrogance.

Quantitiy is a bad tactic, inbreed to new gamers from RTS games and spamming units.
Its also not adressing what I am saying, the Guard can't use marine equipment or any equipment on that level as they don't have the interfaces to interact as naturally as those do.

Based on the amount of enemies the Imperium of Man has accrued, Quantity is needed as much as precision units. And Guardsmen can use Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Augurs, Power Fists, Power Weapons, Missile Launchers, Las Cannons, Calibration sensors, etc, however, the more prized armament is specifically reserved for the Astartes because they have a special role in the Emperor's service.

To think Quantity is a bad tactic within the Imperium of Man is absurdidly false. The Human Empire would not be as expansive as it is without Quantity of Man.

And the whole 'Specialized, elite units' are also a bad tactic, dreamt up by armchair generals who watch the Military Channel way too much and thinks that all armies operate that way...

KplKeegan wrote:

And the whole 'Specialized, elite units' are also a bad tactic, dreamt up by armchair generals who watch the Military Channel way too much and thinks that all armies operate that way...

You mean to tell me the History and military channel do not tell me the whole truth and simply one upping each unit to get me to watch The next thing you'll be telling me is Deadliest warrior doesn't use reliable and useable data and is not in fact a hard scientific study but just a show where they get to play with weapons, often incorrectly.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
The Guard is contributed as a tithe and does rely on the ressources of its recrutement world.

This is correct, it relies upon the munitiorum to Resupply it based upon the gear. As the IoM and the Munitiorum all use STC gear for the most part it is easily done, regardless of said Units tech level

You did notice that the Guard is part of the tithe paid and thus it isn't going to be anything else than what the Administratum demanded as a tithe? The Munitorum takes over when the Guard is handed to its new masters.
So you first have to have the tech level right on that system and/or enough wealth to buy this equipment. Then you need to have the munitorums agreement to supply your contribution. Which is a Guard unit that differs from their usual ones.
That doesn't sound like something easily done.
Its expensive, you got to deal with the Imperial bureaucracy, the role model for the term "immobile object" itself, and after some millenia you may have the papers to begin to assemble this Guard unit. Isn't it easier to use what is already available?

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Organizations as the filthy rich ecclesiarchy aren't able to fill the battlefield with well equipped soldiery as numerous as some may like to believe exist, the skitarii aren't as numerous as the Guard and you still think the poor governors could supply something at a level comparable to marines?

Well first off the Skitarii are Admech and they prob could flood the place but they are limited to standing army size. And yes some worlds could indeed supply SM leave gear. Power armor is not unknown and some of the wealthier world could indeed field units of powerarmor/ Carapace armor with very high level gear and or armor units.

How do they flood the place? Got some examples of this?
And I'd love to see where these worlds are, who may supply such gear. A map may help...or at least where you got this from.
If I may ask.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Marines , who got access to their tech because of the alterations made.

Incorrect. SM gear for the most part are simply larger versions of STC patterns. Nothing or almost nothing they field can not be replicated on a smaller scale. You can put cyber enhanced humans with power armor and bolters onto the battle field. Its just "Taboo" to do so.

Call the cyber enhanced all you want. They are just a different form of marines if you improve/upgrade humans.
Marines are also able to interact with their gear differently than any power armor variant you seem to think of. So no, its not incorrect.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Guard , who is split up and specialized to ensure they can't turn easily and live.

This is incorrect. A Guard unit goes where ever his warmaster tells him, they are always supported, heavily.

Explained this before, but I'll grant you the term specialized isn't a good choice of mine.
Guard was separated from the fleet and became an army of units dedicated to one type of regiment after the heresy.
They are no longer a real army of different types of companies ( infantry, artillery, mounted troops, etc ) but have to be of 1 clearly defined type.
This prevents the Guard from losing whole armys as "pure" infantry unit for example may not have the tools to survive against the wrath of the Guard elements still loyal.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Guard acting on orders. Marines choosing their own targets. Short lived humans vs long lived marines. Independent marines vs Guard caught in the political quabbling of the IoM. No choice where to go vs freedom to act upon the interests of the Emperor.

Your concept doesn't fly.

I disagree, you can easily have commanders that live as long as SM, rejuvenation and cyber ware allows humans to reach the 4,5 or eve 6 hundred year mark. And all you have to do is place your "Interceptor" units to "free action roaming status" with them answering only to the warmaster of a given segmentum. You would see little real diffirence in action. You may lose more men per action, but you can far more easily replace them.

Net loss to the IoM none.

Really? Net loss of giving up a working concept to replace something with a untested and most likely actively opposed concept as it grows the paperwork and goes against traditions in an rather backwards oriented sci-fantasy-verse isn't zero.

It was far better laid out than I am capable of, so here a quote:

Kaldor wrote:
If an Imperial system is attacked, the very first line of defense will be any system ships in the area. We can assume that they will be easily brushed aside by any enemy forces. Next in line is the planetary PDF. We can also assume they will be killed to a man.

So what next? To get the IG moving the correct forms must be filled out in triplicate, forwarded onto the sub-sector commander, reviewed, lost, found, forwarded on to the sector commander, reviewed, lost twice, found twice, buried in soft mud for three months, forwarded on to Terra itself reviewed, and finally actioned. And then orders for levies to be raised in response to this incursion are issued, passed to the sector commander, misplaced, issued to the wrong sub-sector commander, returned to the sector command, lost again, found again, passed to the right sub-sector commander, forwarded on to individual planetary commanders who then issue the command for new regimental foundings.

So, the planet under attack will wait. But who will get there first? The ponderous behemoth that is the Imperial Guard? Or the Space Marines, already embarked on their own vessels and ready to respond?

So in response to an enemy attack, the lightning quick response time of the Astartes is the only thing allowing the Imperium as a whole to respond in any reasonable time frame.

Your layout , Hunterindarkness , just jumps across the whole bunch of underlings involved but still can't deny the increased response time generated from requesting orders from your warmaster. Orders are a definitive trait of the Guard you know. So if the comms are cut, what shall those "interceptors" do? Act on their own? A new Badab war, Guard style?
Not saying the Guard cannot stay loyal, but I doubt the chances of them resisting the insanity that is the 40k verse as well as those who have been created for WAR. Lets assume they keep their faith in the God-Emperor and act as fast as they can.
Are there any reports of Guard catching the fast xeno raiders out there or was this again the astartes doing?
Are there any hints on Guard successfully acting as a rapid reaction force?
No?
Seems the Guard has to stick with its job.



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KplKeegan wrote:



To think Quantity is a bad tactic within the Imperium of Man is absurdidly false. The Human Empire would not be as expansive as it is without Quantity of Man.

And the whole 'Specialized, elite units' are also a bad tactic, dreamt up by armchair generals who watch the Military Channel way too much and thinks that all armies operate that way...

Depends if the saying of Quantitiy is meant as an excuse to waste the lives of the Guard.
What I fondly remember, it was said the lives of the Guard are his currency and an officer should not waste the Emperors monies.. ( 3rd ed? ).
So sorry, if quantity equals amount of firepower used to make sure something is dead, ok.

But I am not a fan of the latest installment of creatures like chenkov. Sure the masses recrutable are an advantage of the IoM and it doesn't look like the numbers given hint on a war-footing at all. The ressources to transport and supply them deserve consideration tough.
Not sure if I think in absurdly false ways, but generally the combined forces approach may fit the multiple organizations construct that imperial forces are , more often than not best.