imperial guard purpose?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Necrosis**

aapch1 wrote:I never meant to start a war here o.o

I find that a little hard to believe with your Ork avatar. JK.

The space marines to me seem to be the force that just suddenly ends a long dragging war or doing impossible missions that not even storm troopers have a chance of winning, such as going to a hive fleet and getting some kind of dna to create some poison or some other crazy mission. I also believe that one of the death watch expansion rule books allows you to create our own chapter and a reason for why they were created.

**Hunterindarkness**

aapch1 wrote:I never meant to start a war here o.o

Its all good man, not a war, more a lively argument.

**aapch1**

Its amusing nonetheless

**Hunterindarkness**

It often is, The internet and text format often make things seem a bit more heated and hostile then they really are.

Also you should totally change your rank system to Ork to match the avatar

**aapch1**

How do I change that?

**Hunterindarkness**

Click on your name. This will take you to your profile page.
Click under your pic on the "edit profile"
The 3rd option under "General Information about yourself" is "choose rank track" this is the 7yh option down the page.

I played around with a few of them myself before settling on the Guard Rank.

**Ailaros**

Plus, people can be a little jumpy, regardless of how you deliver things.

I personally had a chuckle when I read the OP, finding it comparable to the question "Why does the US bother with an army, when it already has the NYPD?"

But, of course, if you're new to the fluff, this wouldn't be obvious.

**Crimson-King2120**

As stated earlier the space marines are nice to have but not neccesary for the survival of the empire simply put the imperium can do without the space marines but not the imperial guard

**purplefood**

Crimson-King2120 wrote:As stated earlier the space marines are nice to have but not neccesary for the survival of the empire simply put the imperium can do without the space marines but not the imperial guard

This is pretty much the answer to this thread.

**Kanluwen**

purplefood wrote:
Crimson-King2120 wrote:As stated earlier the space marines are nice to have but not neccesary for the survival of the empire simply put the imperium can do without the space marines but not the imperial guard

This is pretty much the answer to this thread.

No, it's not.

It's an answer to this thread. It is not the only one, nor is it necessarily the correct one.

Without the Imperial Guard, the Imperium would suffer a quick death.
Without the Astartes, the Imperium would suffer a lingering death; shrinking and shrinking before their final collapse.

**Melissia**

At one point or other, they'd probably stop shrinking though. They'd not be the Imperium we know, however.

**Hunterindarkness**

Kanluwen wrote:
Without the Astartes, the Imperium would suffer a lingering death; shrinking and shrinking before their final collapse.

I really don't understand this at all to be honest. They would suffer a mild set back, but nothing more. The SM ceased to be a real driving force for the IoM when they became set to no more then 1 million troops. Sm do not stop shrinkage, that would be the IG that does that.

**Kanluwen**

Hunterindarkness wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Without the Astartes, the Imperium would suffer a lingering death; shrinking and shrinking before their final collapse.

I really don't understand this at all to be honest. They would suffer a mild set back, but nothing more. The SM ceased to be a real driving force for the IoM when they became set to no more then 1 million troops

I think you need to reread this statement then.

This idea that "The SM are not a driving force for the IoM when they became set to no more than 1 million troops" is so utterly ridiculous that it needs to stop. And it needs to stop now.

The Astartes do not rely upon numbers. It is silly and incomprehensible to tout this as an argument for their lack of a purpose.

The Astartes are a force multiplier. They are a lever applied to situations where conventional forces have either become stalemated or are not properly equipped to contend with a threat. They are the scalpel of the Imperium, applied when precision force is required.

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

Hunterindarkness wrote:
I really don't understand this at all to be honest. They would suffer a mild set back, but nothing more. The SM ceased to be a real driving force for the IoM when they became set to no more then 1 million troops. Sm do not stop shrinkage, that would be the IG that does that.

It is explicitly stated in the rulebook that without the Astartes the Imperium would have fallen long ago. It seems to me like the overwhelming implication is that they are still necessary.

**Melissia**

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:It is explicitly stated in the rulebook that without the Astartes the Imperium would have fallen long ago

Without any real justification, of course. They just want the Marines to feel more important.

**Kanluwen**

Melissia wrote:
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:It is explicitly stated in the rulebook that without the Astartes the Imperium would have fallen long ago
Without any real justification, of course. They just want the Marines to feel more important.

I'm pretty sure that when they are in "omniscient narrator" mode(as they are whenever putting down concrete facts like that one), justification is blatantly unnecessary.

**Crimson-King2120**

At the end of the day marines are the gw pet favourites they are always going to be the imperiums "saviours"

**Kanluwen**

Crimson-King2120 wrote:At the end of the day marines are the gw pet favourites they are always going to be the imperiums "saviours"

At the end of the day, people are going to whine about Marines "being GW's pet favorites" unless they're getting stuck on spikes by screaming madmen.

**1hadhq**

Hunterindarkness wrote:

New unit or no new unit the IG could do the same thing. The net effect of the lose of the SM is effectually zero. The IG has commando units already, the SM don't engage in mass space battles, the don't do invasion they do small hit and run stuff, that while useful can and has been done by IG units. It would be more effect to station a "U nit" as trouble shooters yes, but not a have to.

To repeat the same false claim again and again doesn't make me believe it nor does it come true by doing that.
Still , down at the bottom of your post your offer is no surprise and I am accepting your retreat.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
As it stands unless the HH books rewrites it the Emp crafted the Prims just as I said. This info should be easy for you to look up, if you really cared to do so.

Nice.
Now its the EMp and Prims, so you don't even care a bit.

Maybe it isn't so hard to find out that I am not the one who should look a few things up. OtoH there is a source actually entitled by the holder of the IP to flesh out that era and as far as I know, this means BL is the place to go because GW made it so. Bad news?

Hunterindarkness wrote:
In other words Ignore things that prove you incorrect. Gotcha.

I think we are done here.

I am fine with being done.

You had no more way to escape so yes, its game over.

PS: next time you got nothing more to add, at least let me suggest to refrain from this nonsense calling one incorrect when your data is obviously the only incorrect piece. So sadly, you didn't get me...

**Hunterindarkness**

I am still gonna disagree, they are a symbol and are super important that way, but lets be honest here, after the Herasy the Astarte ceased to be anything of real lasting importance other then a symbol.

The Book praised them and such, but they really do not back it up. Any Navel actions they might have won could be done by the navy, most ground actions could be done by the IG or the sisters( far, far more costly I'll grant you).

They simply do not have the numbers or the unifying strength to have a lasting impact. You can take just about any and every thing they have done in fluff and have another group do it, it may cost more men but in the long run the net change is effectually zero.

With Limited numbers, limited organization and limited cooperation the SM's are really not a unit that does much of anything except propaganda and symbol.

Can you name something post heresy, some long term effect that could not in any way ,shape or form have been accomplished in another way or by some other force?

I really an curious here because off the top of my head I can think of nothing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote: You had no more way to escape so yes, its game over.

PS: next time you got nothing more to add, at least let me suggest to refrain from this nonsense calling one incorrect when your data is obviously the only incorrect piece. So sadly, you didn't get me...

No, I see no point in debating with someone who switches goal posts. You stated the IG codex did not have numbers. I posted ones from the book, then you stated they did not matter. You have a thing about using BL stuff over and before using published hard data. The Codex gives you hard numbers, the codex tell you a good deal of things you simply do not like. I see no point in pushing this any farther as you simply refuse to accept things GW has published as fact, even in Books you told me to use.

I will call someone Incorrect when I see them fudging numbers and leaving out stuff just to be "Right"

Anyhow Good gaming to ya man.

**Melissia**

Kanluwen wrote:I'm pretty sure that when they are in "omniscient narrator" mode(as they are whenever putting down concrete facts like that one), justification is blatantly unnecessary.

Except when they contradict amirite?

Kanluwen wrote:At the end of the day, people are going to whine about Marines "being GW's pet favorites" unless they're getting stuck on spikes by screaming madmen.

Cute perhaps, but also rather pointless.

**aapch1**

My official stand on this: make more space marines, grey knights, blood angels, black templar, what have you, and don't let people, basic everyday people die so much. ALthough the imperial guard are relatable, you have to imagine a thinning line. IG are awesome, but we need more SM

**Brother Thomas**

ZSO SAHALL wrote:To die

**Kasrkin229**

aapch1 wrote:The God emperor already has bio engineered gorilla men, why does he need people? Basic average people? Are they a viable army?

Think of it this way in the HALO games you have the Spartan program which makes them genetically engineered badasses , but there isn't enough of them to take on ALL of the Covenent , thats why you have the Marine Corps . Similar in 40k there are millions of Imperial worlds and there is about 1 space marine for every thousand world , The Imperial Guard is that force that covers where the Space marines can't . would you send a Chapter of Space Marines to Engage a Tyranid Hive Fleet when there was a Chaos inseruction on home turf ?

**Lynata**

Personally, I like to follow the 2E Guard Codex on this question.

"Often, a small force of Space Marines is enough to turn back an alien invasion, so long as there are some other human forces left to support them. However, the Space Marine Chapters are not large: an entire Chapter may be able to field only a thousand warriors or thereabouts. Often, a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat. In such a case mobility counts for very little. In conflicts such as this, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe. The ultimate fighting machine, its task is to hold a front line that stretches across the stars, to wage war for decades or centuries if need be, to act as the bastion of the Imperium against the massed hordes arrayed against mankind."

Of course, given the non-existence of canon/consistency across the various sources which helped shape people's perceptions of the setting, there will be a huge amount of unique opinions regarding the importance and capabilities of both the Guard as well as the Astartes. Personally, I believe the Marines of the 41st millennium are about as troublesome to the Imperium as they are helpful. For every Chapter winning an important battle for the Imperium you've got another one declaring itself independent, shooting at fellow Imperial forces (including other Marines) for the lulz, or having their mutation turn its Battle Brothers into frothing abominations who can't distinguish between an Ork boy and a human civilian.

**Veteran Sergeant**

Hunterindarkness wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Without the Astartes, the Imperium would suffer a lingering death; shrinking and shrinking before their final collapse.

I really don't understand this at all to be honest. They would suffer a mild set back, but nothing more. The SM ceased to be a real driving force for the IoM when they became set to no more then 1 million troops. Sm do not stop shrinkage, that would be the IG that does that.

The Space Marines were never that big to begin with... Great Crusade numbers in the old days were tiny. Even with the numbers of the newer Black Library HH novels, the Ultramarines were only 250,000 strong, and they were the largest of the Legions by far. There were only perhaps a million or so Space Marines in 30K too.

**Vaktathi**

By any reasonable realistic estimation, the Space Marines would be an irrelevant non-entity on the greater galactic stage. They achieve their status primarily through plot armor and the setting being more Fantasy in Space than Science Fiction.

The game itself states there are billions (plural) of IG regiments, each composed of thousands, tens of thousands and sometimes even hundreds of thousands of troops (depending on author and edition and world) meaning there are tens of *Trillions* of guardsmen or more. Even assuming the lower end of that spectrum, that gives us something on the order of tens of millions of Guardsmen for each Space Marine, in others words meaning that the hourly recruitment of the Imperial Guard alone has more military value than the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes, not to mention the various PDF's and other local forces that form the bulk of human defenses.

The Space Marines are important pretty much only because GW says they are. When looked at from any analytical perspective, they're entirely too few to make any meaningful difference. Hell, given the casualty rates on Vraks alone (Imperial Armour 5/6/7), it would have exhausted the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes to take that world, which was an insignificant sideshow of a war to the Imperial Guard.

So yeah, most of the Space Marine's value is owed pretty much entirely to plot armor. Even if the IG have to take a ten, a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, or a hundred thousand times as many casualties to accomplish an objective that the Astartes would be needed for, they can take it and come out better for it than the Astartes usually can. And more often than not, given that the Astartes are absent from about 99% of the Imperium's wars, that's what ends up happening.

Space Marines are cool and all, don't get me wrong, they are what makes 40k what it is and form the core of its story, but their importance is pretty much all "just because".

**Kasrkin229**

Vaktathi wrote:By any reasonable realistic estimation, the Space Marines would be an irrelevant non-entity on the greater galactic stage. They achieve their status primarily through plot armor and the setting being more Fantasy in Space than Science Fiction.

The game itself states there are billions (plural) of IG regiments, each composed of thousands, tens of thousands and sometimes even hundreds of thousands of troops (depending on author and edition and world) meaning there are tens of *Trillions* of guardsmen or more. Even assuming the lower end of that spectrum, that gives us something on the order of tens of millions of Guardsmen for each Space Marine, in others words meaning that the hourly recruitment of the Imperial Guard alone has more military value than the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes, not to mention the various PDF's and other local forces that form the bulk of human defenses.

The Space Marines are important pretty much only because GW says they are. When looked at from any analytical perspective, they're entirely too few to make any meaningful difference. Hell, given the casualty rates on Vraks alone (Imperial Armour 5/6/7), it would have exhausted the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes to take that world, which was an insignificant sideshow of a war to the Imperial Guard.

So yeah, most of the Space Marine's value is owed pretty much entirely to plot armor. Even if the IG have to take a ten, a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, or a hundred thousand times as many casualties to accomplish an objective that the Astartes would be needed for, they can take it and come out better for it than the Astartes usually can. And more often than not, given that the Astartes are absent from about 99% of the Imperium's wars, that's what ends up happening.

I couldnt agree more

Space Marines are cool and all, don't get me wrong, they are what makes 40k what it is and form the core of its story, but their importance is pretty much all "just because".

**Kaldor**

Vaktathi wrote:Space Marines are cool and all, don't get me wrong, they are what makes 40k what it is and form the core of its story, but their importance is pretty much all "just because".

You're missing the bigger picture.

Astartes are the first responders. They are already mounted up, supplied and ready to go when a distress call comes through (or however else it is that 40K forces hear about trouble in the Imperium) and can be on-scene months, years or decades before the IG gets there. There's no point having trillions of men if they are always late to the party.

Now, this isn't a role that ONLY Astartes could fill. You could outfit an IG force with their own ships and independent supply chains, give them a separate chain of command and basically call it a Space Marine lite program. Hell, since they're going to be first responders we may as well make sure that each one of them is as powerful and well equipped as possible. But that's the point, without the Astartes you'd need to create an Astartes analog.

**Lynata**

A good point, too. The Marines' big purpose isn't just to deliver combat power ten times that of a normal Guardsman - but to deliver it within such a narrow timeframe no-one else could (depending on the location, of course).

It takes weeks to even muster a small Guard battlegroup and have it assemble at a staging area. Weeks that, depending on the enemy's strength, goal, and tactics, may prove to be decisive. The Astartes on the other hand ... well, see Kaldor's post. The difference in time may prove decisive for the outcome of a war, but in the very least it heavily influences casualties of any human forces and civilians already under attack and waiting for reinforcements.

The Imperial Guard is an unstoppable steamroller. But it takes some precious time to get it rolling.