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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17989463

Nine men have been convicted of being part of a child sexual exploitation ring in Greater Manchester.

The men, from Rochdale and Oldham, "groomed" girls, one as young as 13.

Liverpool Crown Court heard the men plied their victims with drink and drugs so they could "pass them around" and use them for sex.

The case, involving Asian defendants and white victims, sparked protests by far-right groups but police insist the grooming was not "racially motivated"

One teenager told the jury she was forced to have sex with 20 men in one night.

Another recalled being raped by two men while she was "so drunk she was vomiting over the side of the bed".

Jack Straw commenting on a similar case, it's not hard to find similar cases.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/politics/8707/muslims-back-jack-straw-pakistani-rape-gangs#ixzz1uIjRziZ7

Straw, the MP for Blackburn, made his comments after the jailing of two men of Pakistani heritage, Mohammed Liaqat and Abid Saddique, for abusing girls between the ages of 12-18
whom they had plucked off the streets of Derby.

Leicester Crown Court had heard how the two men, both married fathers, were part of a gang of "sexual predators" who cruised the streets, approaching white women as young as 12, who they then plied with drink and drugs before grooming them for sex.

Straw told the BBC: "These young men... act like any other young men, they're fizzing and popping with testosterone, they want some outlet for that, but Pakistani heritage girls are off-limits and they are expected to marry a Pakistani girl from Pakistan, typically.

"So they then seek other avenues and they see these young women, white girls who are vulnerable, some of them in care... who they think are easy meat."

Now, clearly large portions of the Muslim community are aghast at these actions, and clearly large portions of said communities assist in the apprehension of the scumbags who do these things. That isn't what I am asking.

I am asking, can anyone come in here and give me a logical reason as to why these crimes would not be called "racially motivated" by the authorities, when it is obvious that the victims are picked most definitely because of their race. I really want someone to do a good job of it, because it fills me with rage. Can anyone have a stab at why and enlighten me?

I think this is one of the few times I agree with Jack Straw....

Can I ask for politeness and good manners and minimal ranting? Clearly this type of story annoys people, but I don't want some of our more liberal mods locking the thread for no apparent reason because they don't want people to read stories from reputable news organisations because they are reporting facts they dont like to be seen, and they aren't attacking the Conservatives.

Honestly, proving racial motivations when crimes are committed is kind of difficult.

More so when you get a case like this, where the crimes are being committed against the "majority" by the minority.
The area where these crimes committed might have very well been predominantly white in population, so naturally you have a pretty high chance that the victims are going to be white. You also have a strange dynamic at play where it might be that the lower class of that area (which is predominantly what predators like these men were would target) is consisted of a majority of white individuals while the minorities make up a portion of the middle/upper class of the area.

Basically: There's too many variables to cry racial motivation without digging into a lot of extraneous information.

mattyrm wrote: I am asking, can anyone come in here and give me a logical reason as to why these crimes would not be called "racially motivated" by the authorities, when it is obvious that the victims are picked most definitely because of their race. I really want someone to do a good job of it, because it fills me with rage. Can anyone have a stab at why and enlighten me?

Yes.

But it's likely you already know the reason.

Surely.. surely its not.. political correctness is it?

That's most likely a large part of it, sure.

Kanluwen wrote:Honestly, proving racial motivations when crimes are committed is kind of difficult.

You really think so? In a case like this?

I would fancy my chances personally, and I'm not an ace attorney.

Which begs another question, did they even try? Did the prosecution attempt to have this classified as a racially motivated crime? And if not, why not?

mattyrm wrote:Surely.. surely its not.. political correctness is it?

Could be, could be...

I think maybe they are contextualizing the racially motivated part as a hate crime. Which I guess if you target a specific racial group that's clearly "racially motivated" but not hate. Honestly I don't get why they would go this route since taking racially motivated is a slam dunk it seems and carries a harsher penalty.

Rape is probably one of the few crimes i'd consider supporting bringing back the death penalty for...
Evil, insidious, vile crime...
It's a shame it's so hard to prove in some cases and so few victims come forward...

I don't think the exploitation of white females in this case is necessarily motivated out of racist hatred, but out of the belief that white women are more promiscuous and easier to exploit.

mattyrm wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Honestly, proving racial motivations when crimes are committed is kind of difficult.

You really think so? In a case like this?

I would fancy my chances personally, and I'm not an ace attorney.

If I break into a house in a predominantly rich, Asian neighborhood--do you think it is motivated by the ethnicity of the neighborhood or the fact that they likely have really nice stuff because they live in a neighborhood with really expensive houses?

Predators usually aim for lower/middle class areas to groom minors for things like this. There's usually domestic issues, etc which they can exploit to weasel their way into getting the minors to trust them.

Which begs another question, did they even try? Did the prosecution attempt to have this classified as a racially motivated crime? And if not, why not?

Can't comment on the first part, but they might simply not have done it because they did have access to information like I suggested you'd need to classify it as a racially motivated crime.

Does the question even matter? I am assuming this is a crime in the UK yes? Prosecute it to the fullest extent of the law and punishments permitted yes?

Frazzled wrote:Does the question even matter? I am assuming this is a crime in the UK yes? Prosecute it to the fullest extent of the law and punishments permitted yes?

I'm sure we are all going to love the sentences.

I bet you half of them walk out of court through the front door.

mattyrm wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Does the question even matter? I am assuming this is a crime in the UK yes? Prosecute it to the fullest extent of the law and punishments permitted yes?

I'm sure we are all going to love the sentences.

I bet you half of them walk out of court through the front door.

If they do they'll have to do it running...
If people know their identity it more than likely won't be long until they get lynched...
And i wouldn't blame the police if they didn't try all that hard to stop it...

mattyrm wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Does the question even matter? I am assuming this is a crime in the UK yes? Prosecute it to the fullest extent of the law and punishments permitted yes?

I'm sure we are all going to love the sentences.

I bet you half of them walk out of court through the front door.

What you need is a good old fashioned village mob. Get some villagers, some pitchforks, some torches, and an old lady with a bad german accent. They'll know what to do.

My Grandma can do a bad German accent...

purplefood wrote:My Grandma can do a bad German accent...

Well there you go. Oops for clarity when I said torches I mean like the burning stick kind, not the UK version of a maglite (although a maglite might be effective in this case).

I wonder if they even considered it. My focus was more on the whole abuse of girls thing, I guess so was that of the CPS.

Since this kind of thing does happen within certain communities (got taskforces to deal with it and everything) I wonder if in any of the other cases they've been looked at as racially motivated.

I don't suppose you've just seen the channel 4 news?

Police talking to a 'newly arrived to the Uk Pakistani man', living in a fairly large semi detached house by himself (how did he manage that one so quickly I wonder...), about grooming a young girl. He says that she contacts him and that he has never touched her. Police serve him with a child abduction notice and state that he shouldn't be doing x, y and z.

I raged a little. Send that scumbag and all his fellow grooming arsepieces back to their respective countries, and if they are from the UK lock them up indefinitely.

I'm quite annoyed that the BNP have made this their issue as a lot of people will dismiss it as pure racism.

Racial motivation is very hard to prove.

Did the victims just happen to be white, or are they victims solely because they are white?

It's skirting the border of racism and class exploitation.

There is definitely a large white underclass in the UK. Perhaps if we started pouring some money into this country by getting schools up to scratch, proper jobs in the form of industry and helpful social support systems that aren't crutches this wouldn't be as much of a problem. Sadly Labour and Tory smashed quite a lot of our infrastructure and sold us down the river for short term gains. The country is a complete mess and it's hard to see it getting better without certain parts being left to slump into complete ruin.

It's also pretty hard to justify pissing away money on foreign wars and aid when we have crippling social problems at home.

Medium of Death wrote:It's skirting the border of racism and class exploitation.

There is definitely a large white underclass in the UK. Perhaps if we started pouring some money into this country by getting schools up to scratch, proper jobs in the form of industry and helpful social support systems that aren't crutches this wouldn't be as much of a problem. Sadly Labour and Tory smashed quite a lot of our infrastructure and sold us down the river for short term gains. The country is a complete mess and it's hard to see it getting better without certain parts being left to slump into complete ruin.

It's also pretty hard to justify pissing away money on foreign wars and aid when we have crippling social problems at home.

Its like my long lost brother posting on Dakka....

If they were all Asian wouldn't this be like a total slam dunk for the prosecutor?

Frazzled wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:It's skirting the border of racism and class exploitation.

There is definitely a large white underclass in the UK. Perhaps if we started pouring some money into this country by getting schools up to scratch, proper jobs in the form of industry and helpful social support systems that aren't crutches this wouldn't be as much of a problem. Sadly Labour and Tory smashed quite a lot of our infrastructure and sold us down the river for short term gains. The country is a complete mess and it's hard to see it getting better without certain parts being left to slump into complete ruin.

It's also pretty hard to justify pissing away money on foreign wars and aid when we have crippling social problems at home.

Its like my long lost brother posting on Dakka....

An English Frazzled.

Frazzled wrote:Its like my long lost brother posting on Dakka....

Don't think i'm old enough sadly... try Son...

The Moderators never told you what happened to your father...

They told me enough... they told me you banned him...

No Medium. I, am your father...

*Mark Hamill-esque No*

mattyrm wrote:

I am asking, can anyone come in here and give me a logical reason as to why these crimes would not be called "racially motivated" by the authorities, when it is obvious that the victims are picked most definitely because of their race. I really want someone to do a good job of it, because it fills me with rage. Can anyone have a stab at why and enlighten me?

Fear, of the elephant in the room.

If white commit crimes against the person against people of ethnic group the question of whether the crime was racially motivated is asked openly. Fair enough.
But in the opposite cases any possibility of racial motivation is hushed for fear of sparking a race backlash.

Everyone in Derby knows a girl who's been approached by a much older man at some point and been offered alcohol/drugs. Thankfully most of them are smart/well raised enough to avoid them, but not everyone is so lucky.
Genuinely sickens me. Wouldn't be surprised if there were riots in English cities if it carries on.

Instead of focusing on the ethnicity of the victims, what about the attackers? There was definitely an ethnic component to the make-up of the gang. Whether we like it or not, certain ethnicities/cultures/races (whatever your preferred term) are over-represented within reported instances of certain types of sex crime. Hell, the BBC report about this case, just this afternoon, made reference to figures showing that 25% of suspects in these cases are 'Asian', as opposed to 38% 'White' (whatever that means). This means that a grossly disproportionate number of asians are involved is 'grooming gang' crimes. I also saw a documentary on 4 which discussed the fact that black males are disproportionately involved in gang-rape, to a pretty massive degree.

It's a cultural problem, and one that needs sorting out, urgently. Multi-culturalism be damned.

Oh, and incidentally, when Americans use the word 'Asian', they are typically referring to far-Eastern peoples, and when we Brits use it, it's usually to refer to folks from the indian sub-continent and middle-East, correct? Just wanted to clear up any potential confusion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, btw, one of these scumbags was an Afghan asylum-seeker, Matty. Thought you might enjoy that. Thought you might also enjoy the fact that they're deporting his arse back to the gak-hole he came from. Hopefully he'll bump into one of yours or Mozzer's old pals and catch it up...

Albatross wrote:Instead of focusing on the ethnicity of the victims, what about the attackers? There was definitely an ethnic component to the make-up of the gang. Whether we like it or not, certain ethnicities/cultures/races (whatever your preferred term) are over-represented within reported instances of certain types of sex crime. Hell, the BBC report about this case, just this afternoon, made reference to figures showing that 25% of suspects in these cases are 'Asian', as opposed to 38% 'White' (whatever that means). This means that a grossly disproportionate number of asians are involved is 'grooming gang' crimes. I also saw a documentary on 4 which discussed the fact that black males are disproportionately involved in gang-rape, to a pretty massive degree.

Yeah the argument that "people of all cultures commit these crimes" is pretty bunk when you consider overall statistics. South Asian culture is also very misogynistic to the degree that a lot of non-Asians don't fully understand.

What's a "grooming gang"? I get a general idea but it's nota term I'm familiar with...