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dæl wrote:Of course this is racially motivated, but this is not the fault of Islam it is an entirely social problem that stems from ghettoisation and lack of integration.

Mate, this is absolute nonsense.

PC nonsense.

The local MP (listen to the audio!) sits there and says that he had to "literally throw people out" of his surgery because Muslim citizens that are unrelated to the crimes basically turn up and say "They deserved it because of the way they dress and act" and your saying its nothing to do with Islam!?

Ill spell it out for you.

In some Muslim nations, the women HAVE to wear a Burkha because if a man rapes or sexually assaults said woman and she is showing off some flesh, she bares a share of the blame. Isn't that abhorrent to you? A woman should have to right to walk down a street in a bikini is she so chooses without having to take a share of the blame if a stranger decides to savagely rape her because she shouldn't have tempted him? Should the woman say "Yes, its all my fault, I mean.. you know what men are like!" I find the argument not only offensive to women, but also to men, like we are all so stupid we cant control our testicles.

This isnt my opinion, this is a fact. There are even some clerics who say that two eyes can look "alluring" so they want to women to cover their faces entirely, or wear an eye patch.

And yet you can sit there with a stright face and say its "not the fault of Islam" its from lack of integration!?

I'm sorry, but your attitude disgusts me. People that bend to PC dogma and say "oh its not Islam's fault.. no no.. Islam teaches respect for women!.. its all our fault for keeping them down/not integrating" are basically rape enablers. Why do you think the use of the full veil has been on the decline so much? Even in Pakistan its use is now far less common, and its precisely because moderate Muslims are aware of what it stands for. It exists for several reasons sure, but one is so that if a woman isn't wearing one, and she goes out in a mini skirt and gets raped, the man can say "Look what YOU made me do"

dæl wrote:

Bolded the bit you disregarded. Currently we don't encourage integration and the right wing media are very quick to attack and vilify minorities regardless of their citizenship status (something it's very hard to actually get) and claim that people can turn up and claim fully from the welfare state (an outright lie). People learn about how to behave from socialisation, and if people from other cultures are not joining in with the rest of society how are they taught what is expected of them? Misogyny is prevalent is many cultures around the world, but is thankfully becoming less common as we all become a bit less backward, this isn't solely a Muslim problem, but an ignorance problem. The onus is on the teaching of respect for others, something religion of all things should teach but in some cases fails.

And funnily enough, that isn't a problem that faces non-western nations...

If I go to Saudy Arabia and break their costumes (not even talking about laws here), the least that I can expect is to be thrown in jail, for my own protection because chances are I would be lynched by a mob otherwise...

The onus of integration should be on the foreigner, not the host country. You wan't to live in Europe? Fine, you have to learn our costumes and obey our laws.

All this PC bullcrap makes my blood boil, especially when, like in this instance, it supra-cedes the rights of children (one of the few things that cuts right through my "meh" outlook of the world we live in). Do you, for instance, know that there is a law in my country that allows Gypsies girls to marry as early as 12 years old? With full adult men to booth? All in the name of "multiculturalism" and "political correctness"! The rights of those girls to get a proper education and childhood be damned, we can't risk offending the gypsies!

State condoned paedophilia, you got to love it!

And misogyny isn't becoming less common in the world, quite the opposite really: stay tuned for the next few years and watch the "sharia" rule return to all the "Arab Spring" countries, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Lets just read that report shall we? "picking up girls as young as 12 and grooming them for sex". Even if it isnt racialy motivated there still essentialy raping 12 year olds. If they walk out theyd better do it at a full sprint or else it wont just be a lynching they get. Then again they probably will. Theyll get off on that "your only picking on us because were a minority" excuse. Its sick really but the laws biased as hell. Like if we say [see forum posting rules] we pretty much get massacred by the police(Happend to one of my mums freinds whom has Terets) but they can say pretty much anything they like and get away with it.

master of ordinance wrote:Lets just read that report shall we? "picking up girls as young as 12 and grooming them for sex". Even if it isnt racialy motivated there still essentialy raping 12 year olds. If they walk out theyd better do it at a full sprint or else it wont just be a lynching they get. Then again they probably will. Theyll get off on that "your only picking on us because were a minority" excuse. Its sick really but the laws biased as hell. Like if we say [see forum posting rules] we pretty much get massacred by the police(Happend to one of my mums freinds whom has Terets) but they can say pretty much anything they like and get away with it.

This is a great post and all but proper spelling and grammar is really appreciated on Dakka as it can be hard to understand someone's point if they do not use proper spelling and grammar...
Thanks

PhantomViper wrote:

And this kind of thinking right here is what is going to destroy western nations...

At this point I was like, "whoa whoa whoa mutha trucka,"

When you emigrate to another country the onus to integrate and comply to that country's laws and culture should be on you!

and here I was like, /nods

Totally not the direction I thought you were going.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mattyrm wrote: A woman should have to right to walk down a street in a bikini

Not just the right, when I become the king of North America it will be the law. Bikinis on every woman from 1 May until 31 July! We'll fight obesity head on. I'm sure in the interest of fairness I'll have to come up with something for men, but I'm not devoting a lot of energy to it.

Guys have to... wear short sleeves?

If you start some sort of banana hammock requirement too then your reign is going to be exceedingly short lived, just saying...

What about mankinis?

purplefood wrote:What about mankinis?

The mind cracks just at the thought.

Frazzled wrote:

purplefood wrote:What about mankinis?

The mind cracks just at the thought.

Cracks do tend to feature heavily with mankinis...

See Speedos is the easy answer but
1. I don't like it
and
2. What Frazz said

The overarching goal is fighting obesity so I'm not sure short sleeve shirt will work. Like I said I'm not expending a lot of energy on a solution.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe mesh tanktops and leather pants

I can live with that...
As long as you also supply police hats...

Just remember: It's for the children.

AustonT wrote:See Speedos is the easy answer but
1. I don't like it
and
2. What Frazz said

The overarching goal is fighting obesity so I'm not sure short sleeve shirt will work. Like I said I'm not expending a lot of energy on a solution.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe mesh tanktops and leather pants

What about tights? TIGHT tights?

Yoga pants for men.
Done and done.

mattyrm wrote:

dæl wrote:Of course this is racially motivated, but this is not the fault of Islam it is an entirely social problem that stems from ghettoisation and lack of integration.

Mate, this is absolute nonsense.

PC nonsense.

The local MP (listen to the audio!) sits there and says that he had to "literally throw people out" of his surgery because Muslim citizens that are unrelated to the crimes basically turn up and say "They deserved it because of the way they dress and act" and your saying its nothing to do with Islam!?

Ill spell it out for you.

In some Muslim nations, the women HAVE to wear a Burkha because if a man rapes or sexually assaults said woman and she is showing off some flesh, she bares a share of the blame. Isn't that abhorrent to you? A woman should have to right to walk down a street in a bikini is she so chooses without having to take a share of the blame if a stranger decides to savagely rape her because she shouldn't have tempted him? Should the woman say "Yes, its all my fault, I mean.. you know what men are like!" I find the argument not only offensive to women, but also to men, like we are all so stupid we cant control our testicles.

This isnt my opinion, this is a fact. There are even some clerics who say that two eyes can look "alluring" so they want to women to cover their faces entirely, or wear an eye patch.

And yet you can sit there with a stright face and say its "not the fault of Islam" its from lack of integration!?

I'm sorry, but your attitude disgusts me. People that bend to PC dogma and say "oh its not Islam's fault.. no no.. Islam teaches respect for women!.. its all our fault for keeping them down/not integrating" are basically rape enablers. Why do you think the use of the full veil has been on the decline so much? Even in Pakistan its use is now far less common, and its precisely because moderate Muslims are aware of what it stands for. It exists for several reasons sure, but one is so that if a woman isn't wearing one, and she goes out in a mini skirt and gets raped, the man can say "Look what YOU made me do"

I said, and I stand by the fact that the issue of misogyny is not solely an Islamic idea, it is rife in all monotheistic religion, after all what is the garden of eden but an analogy that women are weak?

Integration is a two way street, the immigrant and the country must work together. We Brits are some of the worst for integration when we emigrate, just look at areas of Spain, and Hong Kong, we refuse to engage with the host culture at all. Its not Political Correctness to ask that those who join our society should abide by our laws, which is also what I said. By the way a chap in a dog collar on Question Time said something similar to "They deserved it because of the way they dress and act." Although I don't think he meant it quite like that (more a reference to the growing sexualisation of pre-teens, albeit inarticulately done).

I'm not arguing that these men are evil, and deserve to be locked away for a very long time, along with those that refused to help in 2008. But after the dust has settled we need to look not at the symptoms of this, but at the root causes. That is the best way to ensure this doesn't happen again. I don't think that makes me a "rape-enabler" at all, quite the opposite in fact.

[eidt: whoops]

AustonT wrote:Yoga pants for men.
Done and done.

You gotta be a man to look good in tights (as a male anyway), ergo, making them wear tights will encourage manliness.

dæl wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

dæl wrote:Of course this is racially motivated, but this is not the fault of Islam it is an entirely social problem that stems from ghettoisation and lack of integration. That is the problem here, Britain today is multicultural, and no amount of witch hunts and demonisation from the political right will change that, what we need to do is accept people as British and offer them all the benefit of such status on the proviso of them taking on the responsibility of being part of society.

And this kind of thinking right here is what is going to destroy western nations...

When you emigrate to another country the onus to integrate and comply to that country's laws and culture should be on you!

Try and go to any middle eastern country and don't conform to their habits and culture and see how far that will get you...

Bolded the bit you disregarded. Currently we don't encourage integration and the right wing media are very quick to attack and vilify minorities regardless of their citizenship status (something it's very hard to actually get) and claim that people can turn up and claim fully from the welfare state (an outright lie). People learn about how to behave from socialisation, and if people from other cultures are not joining in with the rest of society how are they taught what is expected of them? Misogyny is prevalent is many cultures around the world, but is thankfully becoming less common as we all become a bit less backward, this isn't solely a Muslim problem, but an ignorance problem. The onus is on the teaching of respect for others, something religion of all things should teach but in some cases fails.

melissa wrote:

loki old fart wrote:
Why don't we just castrate all sex attackers.

That won't stop many of them.

Often it's a matter of domination more than sex for these kinds of people.

Melissa is right here, there is a massive correlation between sexual predatory behaviour and arson, in some circumstances however chemical castration has proved benefical in rehabilitation, but the person must want to be rehabilitated otherwise they can just stop taking the drugs.

Chemical castration isn't what I had in mind
Think more along the line of farms and bulls.

loki old fart wrote:Chemical castration isn't what I had in mind
Think more along the line of farms and bulls.

I repeat:

Melissia wrote:That won't stop many of them.

Often it's a matter of domination more than sex for these kinds of people.

Even if a serial rapist cannot have sex for biological reasons, he will still rape people.

Very few people reoffend once they've danced the rope. And most of those that do are fictional.

And theirs more
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-18056504

"The defendant believed that such girls would be more likely to give in to his persistent offers... and they may find themselves less likely to be believed if they complained to the police against a responsible, respected restaurateur of the city."

The jury heard that one girl complained to police about Miah persistently harassing her in 2008, three years before he was arrested, but gave up when no action was taken.

SilverMK2 wrote:Very few people reoffend once they've danced the rope.

Studies have shown no extra deterrent from having the death penalty. In fact statistics show that the death penalty leads to a brutalisation of society and an increase in murder rate. In the USA, more murders take place in states where capital punishment is allowed. In 2003, the murder rate in states where the death penalty has been abolished was 4.10 per cent per 100,000 people. In states where the death penalty is used, the figure was 5.91 per cent.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/death-penalty-countries-world#_
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es9XrKTTc_4&feature=related

 There is one controversial aspect of the Rochdale sexual grooming case: that originally the Crown Prosecution Service had decided not to prosecute two of the men convicted on Tuesday and that, as a result, the offences continued for a further two years. It was only with the appointment of a Muslim, Nazir Afzal, last summer to the post of chief crown prosecutor that this decision was reversed. Was his predecessor inhibited from action by considerations of political correctness?
Martin D Stern
Salford, Greater Manchester

It seems it was the CPS who decided against prosecution two years ago, and the police didn't take complaints seriously in 2008, there is an inquiry ongoing which is being overseen by the IPCC, but it's incredibly unlikely that anyone will be punished for allowing this abuse to carry on for four more years.

dæl wrote:[

 There is one controversial aspect of the Rochdale sexual grooming case: that originally the Crown Prosecution Service had decided not to prosecute two of the men convicted on Tuesday and that, as a result, the offences continued for a further two years. It was only with the appointment of a Muslim, Nazir Afzal, last summer to the post of chief crown prosecutor that this decision was reversed. Was his predecessor inhibited from action by considerations of political correctness?
Martin D Stern
Salford, Greater Manchester

It seems it was the CPS who decided against prosecution two years ago, and the police didn't take complaints seriously in 2008, there is an inquiry ongoing which is being overseen by the IPCC, but it's incredibly unlikely that anyone will be punished for allowing this abuse to carry on for four more years.

Amazing.

My father has a Pakistani doctor and he loves the guy, he always tells me about how whenever Asian men go into his surgery for examinations and such that are linked towards recieving incapactiy benefits and such, he has told the secretary to send them all his way, and the people in question refuse and always ask for a white doctor. Basically the Asian doctor doesnt just blindly sign them off for whatever they wish, as a result of this my old man always said that the only way the country will sort out the swindling is the day we get a Pakistani Prime Minister.

Seems he mighta been on to something....

dæl wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:Very few people reoffend once they've danced the rope.

Studies have shown no extra deterrent from having the death penalty. In fact statistics show that the death penalty leads to a brutalisation of society and an increase in murder rate. In the USA, more murders take place in states where capital punishment is allowed. In 2003, the murder rate in states where the death penalty has been abolished was 4.10 per cent per 100,000 people. In states where the death penalty is used, the figure was 5.91 per cent.

You will note, I hope, that I made no comment on the death penalty deterring (or otherwise) the population...

SilverMK2 wrote:

dæl wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:Very few people reoffend once they've danced the rope.

Studies have shown no extra deterrent from having the death penalty. In fact statistics show that the death penalty leads to a brutalisation of society and an increase in murder rate. In the USA, more murders take place in states where capital punishment is allowed. In 2003, the murder rate in states where the death penalty has been abolished was 4.10 per cent per 100,000 people. In states where the death penalty is used, the figure was 5.91 per cent.

You will note, I hope, that I made no comment on the death penalty deterring (or otherwise) the population...

Indeed not, but it would result in more and worse crime so is kind of counterproductive. Also, have a look at the youtube link I posted, talks about false sentencing and miscarriages of justice.

I would also state that looking at the USA is not exactly representative of what would happen in the UK or elsewhere. For example we are not all armed to the teeth

I'd be interested to see studies based on the UK pre-cutting of the death penalty, as well as looking at more comparable nations which have the death penalty. Or at least summaries of the same, since I don't really fell like wading through sociological study papers

SilverMK2 wrote:I would also state that looking at the USA is not exactly representative of what would happen in the UK or elsewhere. For example we are not all armed to the teeth

I'd be interested to see studies based on the UK pre-cutting of the death penalty, as well as looking at more comparable nations which have the death penalty. Or at least summaries of the same, since I don't really fell like wading through sociological study papers

I'm not massively right wing and as a result not hugely behind the idea of capital punishment, but I definitely think all the liberal idiots are juking the stats. There is no way that the logic is flawed surely? Namely, making it so that people who get caught doing awful things don't get sent to a nice heated prison, but instead get flayed alive, would be MORE likely to offend?

I'm sorry, but that fries my logic circuits.

I reckon you could make a strong case that the death penalty has relatively few pros, but there is no way the pinko Guardian readers arent making gak up to strengthen their position.

Heres another good one.. "locking someone up costs far less than killing them!"

mattyrm wrote:
Heres another good one.. "locking someone up costs far less than killing them!"

It does. The legal costs of appeals and incarceration while on death row is huge.
Capital punishment is only more cost efficient if you have a single trial, and then execution.

Joey wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
Heres another good one.. "locking someone up costs far less than killing them!"

It does. The legal costs of appeals and incarceration while on death row is huge.
Capital punishment is only more cost efficient if you have a single trial, and then execution.

Go on...

The only comparable nation is the U.S. its the only G7 country that practices the death penalty. Could use Japan, but Japan doesn't have the social inequalities that Britain does, and death sentences are incredibly rare, its not used anywhere else in the developed world.

No academic would falsify data, it would risk their credibility and therefore livelihood and would come out under peer review anyway. They might just not publish, but would never falsify.

This doesn't really help my point but heres the homicide statistics for UK from 1960-1970 (capital punishment abolished in '65)
1960 282
1961 265
1962 299
1963 307
1964 296
1965 325
1966 364
1967 412
1968 425
1969 392
1970 393
There could be other factors involved, as the world changed a lot during that decade but there is an undoubted rise. Here are all crime stats from 1899-2002 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/historical-crime-data/rec-crime-1898-2002