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Getting back into 40k and learning the ropes for 6thed. Come to find out that the power blob for IG is more or less dead...But I got to thinking...Is it totally dead?

What killed the power blob?

- Challenges

- Units being removed from the front in CC

Those 2 seem to be the main points that have "Killed" the power blob.. But if I understand all the rules right..Cant you do things to help avoid these moments?

- Challenges..Cant you simple refuse to take the challenge? Say you get charged..You would prolly want to duel the Commissar..but you can always refuse to do so..Yes a sgt will have to take his place...but the commissar lives and still gives the unit stubborn which is really his whole function.

-Units being removed from the front.. Wouldnt some smarter unit placement help in making sure your PWs make it into CC with out being killed? Setting them more to the middle of the blob..You get charged..A few guys in front get killed yes..but with enuff bodies in front he should still be close enuff to get a few swings in.

In my mind power blobs might still work? Do they have the same punch as before? No not really...But they can still tarbit fairly well and grind a unit down..Which is what they did in the first place..

Yes if you get charged by a hardcore CC unit..your toast...but again...They where kind of toast if that happened in the past anyway right?

I am sure I am missing a few points..but so far on paper...Things seem alright.

I don't think they are completely dead. i stilluse them and they perform quite well. Snipers/precision shots hurt too. Very often my srgts or commissars get picked out and man it is tough to make that 5+save.

I still like them and I will continue to use them. They are fun to use as well.

I don't think power blobs were killed by any single thing. All that happened was that all of the changes combined to knock them down in efficiency a couple of notches. Power blobs relied on grinding enemies down over a few turns, applying their force constantly until they won. They get ground down too fast now and are not the reliable damage over time unit that they used to be.

A powerblob list won NOVA, so I can't imagine where the notion that "blobs are dead" is coming from. There are huge benefits to large, durable, scoring units in 6th Edition, and IG Infantry do that better than most. With their huge footprint, Blobs can easily dictacte enemy Flyer movement. You can now ally in an IC with ATSKNF to give a Blob that much more durability, give your Sgts power axes for added hitting power, and boost the whole units with numerous Psychic powers (let's say..Divination, Endurance, or Foreboding). No, Blobs are not dead. I'd say they're better than ever.

I'm not a guard player myself so I can only tell you what I heard from other players

An important part of the power blobs where the hidden power weapons. Challenges ruin these pretty hard. Either you get killed in the challenge or you can't attack. In both cases you do not deny the saves of the enemy troops which you were supposed to. Blank sergeants help with this a bit but it cuts your killing power to not give out more power weapons and if there is an IC attached to the enemy it starts again, so you have to consider how much sergeants you want to dump in challenges.

When people say blobs are dead, they're talking pure, 100% IG power blobs. Ones made from nothing but infantry squads, commissars, and a crap load of power weapons. These are the ones that have taken the hit.

When people say blobs are dead, they're not talking about ally blobs. Those are very tough and seem to be quite popular. I still don't think these are proper blobs, but eh, to each his own.

I don't see how the challenges supposedly "killed" the blob
ok, one of your sarges die every turn .... and the opponent's character is slaughtering a lone sarge instead of 3+ guards while all the other sarges are still hitting on the unit
doesn't change a lot in my view

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
When people say blobs are dead, they're not talking about ally blobs. Those are very tough and seem to be quite popular. .

This.

Ally in a SM flavor of your choice to your blob and watch it kick ass. I personally suggest SW rune priests or wolf priests. Both are excellent in their role.

A SW wolf priest can take "Saga of the Hunter" and allow the blob squad to outflank and gives it stealth. He also lets you reroll 1s to hit and wound.
A SW rune priest gives psychic defence, and access to divination.
Both give you ATSKNF, a very useful ability for blob guard.

TanKoL wrote:
I don't see how the challenges supposedly "killed" the blob
ok, one of your sarges die every turn .... and the opponent's character is slaughtering a lone sarge instead of 3+ guards while all the other sarges are still hitting on the unit
doesn't change a lot in my view

it hurts because the combat blobs use to carry PW on the sergeants. These were hidden and could not be killed. Now you either decline the challenge, and your most powerful character cannot fight or you lose 1 character a turn. If you have a 30 man blob with 1 commissar, all with power weapons then you have paid for 1 more power weapon than you get to use. Of course you can now take mauls or power axes, giving you extra strength.

Secondly it is pressision strikes. Any 6s to hit in melee or in shooting from characters are going to go on the commissar, and he only has 4+ to LOS.

Thirdly you cannot willfully allocate to the commissar when you want to break. Say you want to disengadge, maybe get swept or run away so you can shoot the other unit in your next shooting phase. You use to just allocate to the commy who would die and then your squad would reliably break. Now unless he is the closest model, or gets into a challenge(and even then he could be facing a chump) you cannot kill him off at your will.

I think my use of the term "power blob" is a bit more broad then what it's normally used for.

The commissar with a PW and the sgt with PW did take a hit for sure.

But 20+ guardsmen with a commissar still have a place in holding the line for sure.

Is upping up on weapons with the possibility for precise shots a viable option? Instead of PW on the sarg what about duel pistols for a lucky shot and kill there char before he even gets into CC? Backed up with a cheap sniper squad maybe?

I think the biggest hit for the power blob was the nerfing of close-combat. back in 5th ed, you usually needed a unit that could tarpit/counter the enemy assault units, but in 6th ed? Everyone runs gunline, assault units are rare and usually deathstars, and shooting the crap out of your opponent is a lot easier than before. Then why would you take the power blob? Take some shooty blob, or something shooty non-blob and you should be fine.

Etched In Pride wrote:
I think my use of the term "power blob" is a bit more broad then what it's normally used for.
Is upping up on weapons with the possibility for precise shots a viable option? Instead of PW on the sarg what about duel pistols for a lucky shot and kill there char before he even gets into CC? Backed up with a cheap sniper squad maybe?

No pistols are not a good option. With 2 pistols on 2 sergeants and the commy you will average 1 hit(but also 1 overheat) for 60 points!. Then you might not wound, then they get to LOS it 50% of the time and then cover/++ save. You are spending 60 points for a ~25% chance to kill an upgrade sergeant.

They aren't dead at all. They are better than ever. The ability to attach characters that confer benefits to the squad is amazing. 40-50 Guard, 4-5 Power Axes, and an attached character for fearless or ATSKNF is all you need. There are ways to make use of flamers or autocannons as well (though they get a bit pricey this way).

Though things like removing models from the front and reduced cover can be seen as negative, the ability to put a 2+ or 3+ save character up from more than offsets this. Blobs clog up lanes for flyers and make up for low model count MEQ armies.

Anyone who says blobs are dead does not know what they are talking about. Period. Look at recent tourney results. Or you know, play the game and see why.

Perhaps another thing was the way that cover is handled now, Usually you had several guys in a ruin, your sergeants and special weapons outside and then you moved forward, carefully placing half of them in cover. Sure, your sergeants and everything was exposed, but at least you had a 4+ save.
Cover now is done differently. You look at the model and then decide if it gets a save.

Again, we're talking about pure power blob armies here. NOT ALLIED BLOBS.

AKA, I don't have my codex on me, but someone find me a 2+ or 3+ save character in the IG codex that can be attached to a blob. and give it Fearless or as JGrand pointed out ATSKNF (which, mind you, is a SM thing)

Allied blobs are still amazing (where you can put 2+ and 3+ characters in it).

The only thing that "killed" the power blob is Internet whining. It still works great in real life-- the main difference is that you can't really have power blobs be your entire composition anymore. However one or two power blobs can make a nasty addition to many lists.

THIS is what killed the power blob.

These problems are mostly fatal to shooting blobs as well. The only thing that a commissar helps with is leadership issues. It's now way too easy to just kill a blob outright, regardless of leadership, something which commissars can't help you with.

This means that MSU has gone back to being the better option for several reasons, not the least of which being that you no longer have to spend points on commissars.

 Ailaros wrote:
THIS is what killed the power blob.

These problems are mostly fatal to shooting blobs as well. The only thing that a commissar helps with is leadership issues. It's now way too easy to just kill a blob outright, regardless of leadership, something which commissars can't help you with.

This means that MSU has gone back to being the better option for several reasons, not the least of which being that you no longer have to spend points on commissars.

I have used single squads time and time again and i fail to see how they are better.

The way I see it, the squad take a few casualties and it left with 6 men (f you're lucky) and if this happen across a couple of your squads you are left with a lot of damaged squads.
assuming you take the same damage to your blob lets say around 10 men, then assuming your blob is big enough it is still pretty dangerous as all it take is a first rank fire and you are good to go.

I can see 2 advantages of single squads, one being it forces your enemy to split their fire and secondly it means you can't get held up in combat and slaughtered as easily but i personally see the advantages of blobbing out weight the negatives.

 washout77 wrote:
Again, we're talking about pure power blob armies here. NOT ALLIED BLOBS. Allied blobs are still amazing (where you can put 2+ and 3+ characters in it).

This discussion seems to have come to an end then.

Blobs without allies are marginal at best.
Blobs with alllies are extremely good.

/discussion

People do realize that even in a non-allied blob you're still pretty solid. I think most of you don't understand how challenges work. Basically he challenges, you deny the challenge, he takes a single PW out of the fight. You replay with 4-5 other power weapons.....So it's just like 5th except you don't want your Sergeants in b2b (which works out well with axes as they are I1 and move last) but outside of that they are still invisible to anything other than precision shots.

Now blobs with allies are insane. But blobs by themselves are still viable.

 Hulksmash wrote:
People do realize that even in a non-allied blob you're still pretty solid. I think most of you don't understand how challenges work. Basically he challenges, you deny the challenge, he takes a single PW out of the fight. You replay with 4-5 other power weapons.....So it's just like 5th except you don't want your Sergeants in b2b (which works out well with axes as they are I1 and move last) but outside of that they are still invisible to anything other than precision shots.

Now blobs with allies are insane. But blobs by themselves are still viable.

Cool, so how do you get all those guardsmen into combat with all their cool weapons?

Depends on what your opponent is packing at range. But basically they are in the third line of models. This will generally get them wtihin 2" of an engaged model with their 3" move. Remember, b2b isn't required, just being within 2" of an engaged model. This is assuming no HWT which greatly increases the combat zone.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Depends on what your opponent is packing at range. But basically they are in the third line of models. This will generally get them wtihin 2" of an engaged model with their 3" move. Remember, b2b isn't required, just being within 2" of an engaged model. This is assuming no HWT which greatly increases the combat zone.

Great, so now they're engaged and get killed next turn. Power blobs were great as an attrition unit, they won combat eventually through round after round of unkillable power weapon attacks wearing down the target unit, not through a single decisive assault. In 6th you might be able to exploit the pile-in rules enough to keep the sergeants alive until they swing, but that only buy them one turn of protection when they need a lot more.

 Exergy wrote:

Etched In Pride wrote:
I think my use of the term "power blob" is a bit more broad then what it's normally used for.
Is upping up on weapons with the possibility for precise shots a viable option? Instead of PW on the sarg what about duel pistols for a lucky shot and kill there char before he even gets into CC? Backed up with a cheap sniper squad maybe?

No pistols are not a good option. With 2 pistols on 2 sergeants and the commy you will average 1 hit(but also 1 overheat) for 60 points!. Then you might not wound, then they get to LOS it 50% of the time and then cover/++ save. You are spending 60 points for a ~25% chance to kill an upgrade sergeant.

Well, how about Bolt pistols? The commissar already gets one from the get-go, and it's the cheapest thing in the codex next to searchlights for vehicles. stronger than the laspistol and with an AP value as well.

The fact that it was a stupid idea in the first place.

Any questions?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The fact that it was a stupid idea in the first place.

Any questions?

It was excellent in 5th, actually. So...yeah.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The fact that it was a stupid idea in the first place.

Any questions?

Completely false. In 5th edition the power blob was arguably the best assault unit in the game, and easily capable of wiping out terminators/characters/death stars and any other elite assault unit you can think of.

 Peregrine wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The fact that it was a stupid idea in the first place.

Any questions?

Completely false. In 5th edition the power blob was arguably the best assault unit in the game, and easily capable of wiping out terminators/characters/death stars and any other elite assault unit you can think of.

It was really fun. Just the new rule of taking off front models is bad enough, before everything else. It makes it far harder to get them where they need to be. In 5th I ended many a game by just about getting a power blob onto an objective. Now, I lose so many inches that I have to run much further to score, which means I miss out more often than not.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Etched In Pride wrote:
I think my use of the term "power blob" is a bit more broad then what it's normally used for.
Is upping up on weapons with the possibility for precise shots a viable option? Instead of PW on the sarg what about duel pistols for a lucky shot and kill there char before he even gets into CC? Backed up with a cheap sniper squad maybe?

No pistols are not a good option. With 2 pistols on 2 sergeants and the commy you will average 1 hit(but also 1 overheat) for 60 points!. Then you might not wound, then they get to LOS it 50% of the time and then cover/++ save. You are spending 60 points for a ~25% chance to kill an upgrade sergeant.

Well, how about Bolt pistols? The commissar already gets one from the get-go, and it's the cheapest thing in the codex next to searchlights for vehicles. stronger than the laspistol and with an AP value as well.

read the IG codex, you can replace the ccw or pistol with a PP but the bolt pistol can only replace the laspistol. so with 2 sergenants and the commi, all with bolt pistols you get 3 shots. roughtly 50% chance to get 1 hit, 50% chance to wound something important, and then they get their armor / cover save. Works out to be ~4% chance to kill a Meq upgrade sergeant. All las pistols you had a ~3% chance. 4 points for a slightly higher chance to kill an upgrade chump. Against DE maybe you get a 12% chance, but it isnt like DE assault is worth anything these days anyway.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Depends on what your opponent is packing at range. But basically they are in the third line of models. This will generally get them wtihin 2" of an engaged model with their 3" move. Remember, b2b isn't required, just being within 2" of an engaged model. This is assuming no HWT which greatly increases the combat zone.

Great, so now they're engaged and get killed next turn. Power blobs were great as an attrition unit, they won combat eventually through round after round of unkillable power weapon attacks wearing down the target unit, not through a single decisive assault. In 6th you might be able to exploit the pile-in rules enough to keep the sergeants alive until they swing, but that only buy them one turn of protection when they need a lot more.

::Sigh:: If you're assaulting you keep them safe easily for 2 rounds of combat. If you're assaulted it's closer to 3. More if you smart with your movement. All those power weapons are now St4 instead of St3. Try using them and learning how to use the pile-in correctly. Remember you're rank and file moves into the combat first after your opponent strikes (assuming I4+) and then your sergeants move in. As long as you have models you should be able to clog up actually being in base to base. As a sidenote you decide who dies when actually touching so who is killing 20+ guardsmen per turn in CC that he FRFSRF didn't put a major dent in before getting into CC? MEQ's don't do that. Non-MEQ's get hammered by lasfire leading up to assaults, including overwatch (45-90 shots will kill a few dudes, even t4 ones).