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Two questions really, how much can you change a normal man to make them a better soldier in 40?

Can a 20-40 years old Guardsman have help from the Astartes in recieving some implants so they're almost like scouts? Because i think in the DA books Luther was given some?

Not just Luther but his entire knightly order, if I remember correctly from the studio fluff on the Dark Angels. So, certainly, there is a wide range of options limited chiefly by availability and cost-efficiency, although I would expect that many of them would come with a series of side-effects (that being said, Astartes treatment does too, resulting in lifelong dependency on drug-treatments to keep a Marine's metabolism from collapsing).

The main issue with the question is less what would be technologically possible, but why any Marine Chapter would bother with such things for someone who isn't a member. Also, I would expect Marine procedures to be firmly geared towards, well, making Marines. For other methods of augmentation, one would be better advised to turn to the Adeptus Mechanicus, both regarding tech implants as well as the Biologis division for genetical enhancements.

Short answer is yes.

Long answer is reading some of the Horus Heresy books like the DA one you mentioned and I believe a few others contain serfs who've been genetically and surgically altered for better strength, endurance and life span.

I also believe there is a Space Wolf story which involves a human being augmented and operated on to enhance him enough to run with the wolves.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Two questions really, how much can you change a normal man to make them a better soldier in 40?

Can a 20-40 years old Guardsman have help from the Astartes in recieving some implants so they're almost like scouts? Because i think in the DA books Luther was given some?

You can always go to the Fabius Bile walk in clinic, they will get you in the system and get right on those..implants err augmentations, just sign here....

Lynata - Say a platoons worth of men did something for the Astartes to be indebted to them maybe or were impressed with their fightin prowess.

They absolutely have the technology and skills to take a normal man, even an old man, and make him a super-soldier. In Prospero Burns, the Space Wolves do this to the narrator's character, a man who is over 60. The procedure doesn't take him to the level of an SM scout - I doubt any procedure aside from the ones an initiate undergoes would take a normal man that far - but it does make him far stronger and more capable than even an exceptional human.

However, it would be extremely costly (in both time and resources), and such things are in even shorter supply in 40k than they were at the time of the Heresy. Even then, they only did it for this one man because they ulterior motives that made him useful to them, so I don't see how any chapter would do this for entire platoons just because they were "impressed with their fighting prowess."

ragingmunkyz wrote:
They absolutely have the technology and skills to take a normal man, even an old man, and make him a super-soldier. However, it would be extremely costly (in both time and resources), and such things are in even shorter supply in 40k than they were at the time of the Heresy.

This. It can be done but it's extremely expensive. No one would treat a whole platoon of troopers even if they were the best of the best. Their leader, I can see - he made the rest work so good together that someone wishes him to train others to do the same. In 40K people aren't irreplaceable, just worth more if they have a particular talent someone wants.

One other thing to consider, if its the astartes that are being asked to perform this augmentation, and it would require assets simular or needed to make a scout marine ( organs, and zygotes and such) then I would think many chapters would refuse or be offended at the request.
Seeing as these are harvested from fallen warriors of the chapter and are the future of said chapter, geneseed and its requisite organs are a chapters most precious resources, and for some are almost a holy icon of the emperor himself, since a little bit of him went into the originals, cant see a willy nilly handing out of them.

but if they can just strap a soldier to a table and pump them full of "Venom" super soldier serum then sure why not .

Do they have the tech? Yes. Is a normal human worthy of it? Doubtful.

Basically Astartes are the imperium's super-soldiers and it doesn't see the need to invest in such modifications outside of a rare few organizations such as the assassin clades, an inquisitor at their own discretion, and certain magi of the mechanicus. Even elite troops like storm troops arn't modified as far as fluff tells which means that outside of specialist units mentioned even your brute of a catachan is still just going to be human.

Themanwiththeplan wrote:Lynata - Say a platoons worth of men did something for the Astartes to be indebted to them maybe or were impressed with their fightin prowess.

Now, this is just my rather gritty and down-to-earth perspective on the setting, but that idea sounds a lot like something happening in a novel or a movie rather than "a real thing". The Imperium is a feudal society and Guardsmen, just like Space Marines, are expected to die for the cause. Exceptions are always possible, but on this level, Marines feeling "indebted" to a bunch of IG troopers, or the soldiers being so awesome that the Astartes would go "daaaamn, did you see that, Brother?" just sounds a tad ... hmm, how should I put it ... "naive" to me.

Ultimately, however, all authors and fans have overlapping yet slightly different interpretations of the setting, and there's nothing wrong with pursueing a more lighthearted vision - hell, a whole lot of Black Library novels already do so. I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you think this is cool, then roll with it. Just be aware that it's a bit on the idealistic side, so to say.

Ah, regarding the scope of augmentation, I suppose Imperial Assassins and Arco-Flagellants could provide some inspiration, as may Adeptus Mechanicus cybernetic implants and the artificial limbs sometimes used to treat battlefield injuries or turn people into lobotomised servitors. Colonel Straken is probably the most prominent owner of a cybernetic arm, and it was apparently strong enough to strangle a CSM Lord to death as referenced in the Planetstrike Codex.

"Officio Assassinorum killers are death machines, trained in one of the hidden temples to be an expert sniper, a bio-chemically-driven frenzied killer, a shapeshifter or worse."
- Inquisitor: Assassins

"The great church of the Ministorum has almost as many different ways of dealing with heretics as there are types of heresy. All their methods include torture or death (or torture and death) to physically expunge the sin from the heretic's soul so that they may strengthen the Emperor when they die. The more extravagant punishments include the Rat Pit, skin-purging, deathmasking and arco-flagellation. In this last instance, the heretic undergoes extensive physical surgery and mental reconditioning, turning them into frenzied berserkers. The guilty person can be implanted with a variety of weapons, such as cutting claws, pneu-mattocks and the ever popular electro-flails. The Arco-flagellant is fitted with a sealed pacifier helm containing implants that connect into the cerebrum and spinal cord, which keeps them in a calm, barely conscious state. When in this mode the Arco-flagellant's mind is filled with sacred images and verses, such as symbols of the Ecclesiarchy, pictures of Saints and looped hymnals and prayers, which enter directly into the heretic's subconscious. The helm can be deactivated by means of a trigger word, releasing inhibitors and unleashing the full fury of the Arco-flagellant. Another trigger word activates the pacifier helm again, rendering the Arco-flagellant passive once more.

They are almost unstoppable once activated as their bodies are awash with combat stimulants, pain suppressants and adrenal pumps, making them virtually immune to all pain and bordering on the unkillable except when inflicted by the most horrendous injuries. Brainwave pattern regulators turn them into psychopathic maniacs, suffused with inner agony and anguish, removing any thoughts of fear or self-preservation. Arco-flagellants are normally used by the Ecclesiarchy's fighting forces in suicide attack units. However, an Inquisitor can request (or demand if they are confident enough) that a Cardinal turn over an Arco-flagellant or two to their authority. As the Ministorum holds those Inquisitors who possess a more radical turn of mind in some suspicion, it is usually the more puritan and outwardly pious agents of the Inquisition who will be able to include them as part of their warrior band. An Arco-flagellant is not a subtle weapon, and they are much appreciated by the more destructive and bloodthirsty Inquisitors, who are not afraid of some collateral damage and a few innocent casualties."
- Inquisitor: Arco-Flagellants

If you access this PDF hosted on GW's website and scroll down to the last bit, you may also check out a series of possible implants and bionics which could be used for mechanical augmentation, and what effect they may take.
All in all, I don't think you can get quite close to Marine-levels of augmentation - at least where overall resiliency and physical strength are concerned - but there is a wide variety of properties that can be enhanced in such way if you want to go all out Frankenstein on somebody. Oh, and also check out the chems and stimms.

Humans are often given implants and other improvements, see Skittarii.

They are still relativly rare in the grand scheme of things.

The closest you might come would be regiment wide strength enhancements. Super steroids if you will.



They would not be given any of the implants Space Marines recieve, which are made with sacred geneseed. You don't just dump stuff like that on random soldiers, its reserved for those who will become space marines.

Back in the early 300th of the White Dwarf they had an article with rules and background for some abhumans (I dont have that particular white dwarf handy atm). One of these was a attempt to create the perfect soldiers, iirc they used some sort of cloning technique. At first they are always fielded with great succes, because they are better then normal soldiers. But after that they always suffer accidents/huge losses which wipes out the group. Still more are being created and tested, so the Imperium is trying gene science for improving soldiers.

The Afriel-strain clones? Granted, that wasn't as much about augmenting existing troopers but rather breeding them from scratch.

But yeah, it was a cool piece of fluff.

The tech is most likely there, it's just that - personally - I don't see it being applied to some random Guard regiment, especially given how they are tithed, but rather "reserved" for special projects such as whatever the Assassinorum temples do to soup up their operatives.
The Skitarri are another excellent example, though, and much more likely to be heavily augmented by default!

Kor Phaeron was extremely old when he was made an 'Astartes', he was never a real marine, and it is said that he always looks frail, partly because of the Warp, but mainly due to him being enhanced at such an old age.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Back in the early 300th of the White Dwarf they had an article with rules and background for some abhumans (I dont have that particular white dwarf handy atm). One of these was a attempt to create the perfect soldiers, iirc they used some sort of cloning technique. At first they are always fielded with great succes, because they are better then normal soldiers. But after that they always suffer accidents/huge losses which wipes out the group. Still more are being created and tested, so the Imperium is trying gene science for improving soldiers.

There was a similar type of clone-super-trooper in the last chancers novels if I recall correctly - twins, a boy and a girl, albino, and their whole regiment was cursed.

Biological enhancements were very common on Terra before the Unification as well iirc, and while the space marines were the best of the best, in the old-school fluff (and possibly the HH books) the thunder warriors were only a slight improvement upon existing terran supersoldiers.

and, of course this tech has gone the way of all imperial technology - gradually down the pan - and also, philosophically, I can't help but think that the lack of genegineered/upgraded guardsmen is something of a statement by the Imperium. Elite supersoldiers may exist, but the common man is the true backbone of the Imperium's might, and the basic unit the Munitorum is built around. Certainly, in the tech-and-intelligence-starved 41st millenium, it's not the kind of thing that can be handed out on a large scale. Save it for the Astartes, the Admech, the Assassins - for the same reason you don't give an ordinary guardsman a boltgun; quantity has a quality all of it's own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In addendum, 2nd ed wargear book had combat drugs aplenty, and I'm pretty sure it was possible to give Frenzon to guardsmen in some way. I'm pretty blurry on that though, maybe it was penal troopers that were fitted with Frenzon dispensers as well as explosive collars?

There are also regiments who use combat drugs t improve effectiveness, like the Savlar Chem Dogs. The difficulty with implants is that they are hard to come by in the Imperium. In most situations the costs of the implants outways the net gains on the battlefield. Just look at the Skitarii, they dont preform notably better then regular guard elements. One can even argue its much easier not to waste rescources on implants but just spend them on more weapons and armour. Even with implants the enemies of the Imperium (Orks, Necrons, Chaos marines) mostly have the edge with equipment or biology. The only possible edge I can imagine is against other humans, but these wars can usually be crushed by superior numbers, due too a lack of a unified counter human empire against the Imperium.

Implants may help somewhat, but even with those in the end youre most probably still equiped with a lasgun against an Ork. The Imperium isnt the best in efficient use of providing weapons or assignments.

I was thinking about a squad or two of Guard being given advanced training along side speed, agility, strength boosting drugs. They will be working closely with Astartes, and have access to a limited amount of kit (boltgun etc.) including a Rhino.

They will never be on par with Astartes but they can still do impressive feats of arms. (taking on 5 men at once and coming out with barely a scratch, yes. Giving an Eldar Avatar a glas-wie-gen kiss and knocking it cold, no)

sound like some inquisitor's private army to me. See if you can get a look at the rules for Only War, the IG RPG from FFG. Really worth a glance when one is trying to flesh out the background of guardsmen, they've done a sterling job.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Kor Phaeron was extremely old when he was made an 'Astartes', he was never a real marine, and it is said that he always looks frail, partly because of the Warp, but mainly due to him being enhanced at such an old age.

That's who I was going to put forward as an example.

On Kor Phaeron I was also going to say that he had apparently had quite a lot done to him.

Hector Rex an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor was given enough juice to go toe to toe with a Bloodthirster at Vraks. That's a telling story for how much juice a human can receive.

For the officers. Lets for fun play the game where the AdMech Biologus and Inquisitors of Ordo Xenos are cooperating. There you can look at Straken for the cutting edge.

Titanicus portrays skitarii more or less like smaller space marines, only with snazzier equipment and integrated heavy weapons, because the AdMech is cool like that. But the skitarii are also bred to be natural supersoldiers, in addition to being heavily augmented/rebuilt by the AdMech.

Of course, regular humans can be heavily augmented, primarily with bionic limbs/organs, the best of which are legitimate upgrades over the original flesh. If a sufficiently powerful Inquisitor is behind it, they could probably optimize a good number of soldiers for various tasks (but generally would just use Inquisitorial stormtroopers, who are basically just cadian stormtroopers++).

Does anyone know please what Maggard (the bodyguard from False Gods) have done to him to make him bigger, faster and stronger? as that is where I'm aiming for with my squad or two of Guard.

They can and do augment guard regiments, not to the level of space marines but enough to be considered better than the run of the mill guard, they augmented the regiment in anphelian project, special detachment d99 I believe they are called.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Kor Phaeron was extremely old when he was made an 'Astartes', he was never a real marine, and it is said that he always looks frail, partly because of the Warp, but mainly due to him being enhanced at such an old age.

That's who I was going to put forward as an example.

On Kor Phaeron I was also going to say that he had apparently had quite a lot done to him.

Spoiler:

In Know no fear Guilliman crushes his Primary heart, now to me you would only say Primary if there was a secondary one. A secondary heart is something that an Astartes has. Now this is either an indication of how much a regular human can have done or ... which I hope is not the case... Abnett forgetting that Kor Phaeron is only human

Getting a secondary heart implant wouldn't be a difficult thing to do. He could easily have had a secondary heart.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Kor Phaeron was extremely old when he was made an 'Astartes', he was never a real marine, and it is said that he always looks frail, partly because of the Warp, but mainly due to him being enhanced at such an old age.

That's who I was going to put forward as an example.

On Kor Phaeron I was also going to say that he had apparently had quite a lot done to him.

Spoiler:

In Know no fear Guilliman crushes his Primary heart, now to me you would only say Primary if there was a secondary one. A secondary heart is something that an Astartes has. Now this is either an indication of how much a regular human can have done or ... which I hope is not the case... Abnett forgetting that Kor Phaeron is only human

Getting a secondary heart implant wouldn't be a difficult thing to do. He could easily have had a secondary heart.

I've never heard of any other non astartes having a secondary heart in the fluff. Not sure if it would be an easy thing to do either, I'm not a heart surgeon or a gene scientist, are you?

On the implant the old Index Astartes article said

Phase 1 - Secondary Heart. The simplest and most self-sufficient implant. The secondary heart is capable of boosting the blood supply or maintaining full life functions even with the destruction of the recipient's original heart. The Phase 1 implant enables Marines to survive low oxygen concentrations and traumatic injury.

No mention of the procedure being simple. It's also part of the turning a human into an Astartes, which Kor Phaeron was to old to become.

No, but there actually was a guy in the news a couple years back that did have 2 hearts. His original one was failing so he got a heart implant to give him a new one so he ended up with 2.

If we can do it now they can do in 38,000 years in the future.

The simplest and most self-sufficient implant.

Just sayin

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, but there actually was a guy in the news a couple years back that did have 2 hearts. His original one was failing so he got a heart implant to give him a new one so he ended up with 2.

If we can do it now they can do in 38,000 years in the future.

The simplest and most self-sufficient implant.

Just sayin

Yes, it is a simple and self sufficient implant, but like I said it doesn't mention the complexity of the actual procedure.

I catch your meaning, but the nature of the additional heart wasn't to replace the original but I assume, to do the same thing as the Astartes equivalent and to act in tandem with the other when required. Has the nature of turning a human into a half Astartes been mentioned, yes, have the full details been provided, no. To me having this procedure shows that Kor Phaeron had a bit more done than your normal half astartes. I think it's even mentioned by Xaphen in The First Heretic that Lorgar had Kor Phaeron undergo more thorough Astartification than most.

In terms of implants for Guard soldiers, pretty much everything can be replaced, but it's mostly restricted to lost limbs/organs.
Examples from Gaunt's Ghosts are an augmetic arm (capable of firing an Astartes boltgun on full auto), eyes (heat-/night-vision), and brain implants (bodyguard of a merchant, boosting reflexes to Astartes level).

The only example I know for deliberate augmentation outside of Assassins/Skitarii/Inquisition are the Medusan auxiliary forces.
These are Guard veterans serving the Iron Hands, receiving augmentations on a regular level instead of Skitarii patchwork.
For example they are wielding heavier-than-usual weaponry with augmented limbs, have retinal displays for weapon/armor/health information of the squad, mentally triggered communication instead of vox, and implanted auspex/database.
This would make them superior to usual elite units, but still far weaker than Astartes.

So there is the possibility of regularly augmented guard groups, this will probably not work with Astartes organs, that's what the Genetor branch of the Mechanicus is for.
But this would be restricted to small elite units with good connections to the Mechanicus, coming from a forgeworld, or having friends in high places with a lot of cash.

The AdMech has the ability to transfer a person's entire consciousness and memory to a microchip that they can then swap between robotic bodies (this is normally reserved only for senior Magi, however). Additionally, many high-ranking Tech-priests are little more than total conversion cyborgs, with just a scant few organs housed within fully augmetic bodies, which feature multiple limbs, mind/machine interface linkages, the ability to see/hear/smell/taste far beyond the range of human senses (IR, UV, Microwave, radio waves, wireless data transmission, etc, etc, etc.).

Giving a few hundred Guardsmen some bodyplating, wired reflexes, pain editors and cyberoptics is not outside the realm of possibility... but what have these Guardsmen done to deserve such blessings of the Machine-God? Each of these components is a holy relic of Mars, whether they are newly constructed or have been sitting in a box for a few thousand years. The AdMech usually reserves its best bits for its Skitaarii legions (and themselves), so while the Inquisition may be able to pull the strings that get such implants for some Guardsmen, the Inquisitor pulling those strings is going to need to be in good with the AdMech.

Psienesis - My chapter is on good terms with Mars so hopefully that will help, plus it's my chapter putting them forward for this as well.

As for what they have done to warrant this honour. I don't want to give too much away but lets just say my chapter is impressed with their steely determination, doggedness, luck, and kill record to vouch for them to Mars for the operation.