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What do you think guys????

Yes.

All-caps is a bit unnecessary, but yes, the general consensus is that they are. Torrent of Fire keeps a record of wins/loss ratios.


Personally, I think that Daemons are #1, given that Tzeench Flying Circus got a huge buff in Be'Lakor.

They seem to be right now, but armies like Tau and Demons aren't far behind. Tau especially are such great allies to a lot of armies.

yes, though not because of wraith knights

yes, for sure. Seeing tons of serpent/jetbike spam here, the sad part is they just look silly and I can't get into painting or enjoying them so better luck next edition

How are BA ahead of Orks!!!

Eldar are good, and they're only going to get better now that you can take Revenant titans in a normal game.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
All-caps is a bit unnecessary, but yes, the general consensus is that they are. Torrent of Fire keeps a record of wins/loss ratios.


Personally, I think that Daemons are #1, given that Tzeench Flying Circus got a huge buff in Be'Lakor.

A really interesting set of data, I'm very surprised by many of the results.

Theres just no way Orks can have a lower (slightly), win percentage than SOB... is there?

 Peregrine wrote:
Eldar are good, and they're only going to get better now that you can take Revenant titans in a normal game.

With the Revenant Titan, an ELdar army is almost invincible. His D weapons are ridiculous, and if you have seen the battle report in the ''Escalation'' thread at the 40k Gen. Discussion board here at Dakka, you will have noticed that with the enemy's puppet master, the Titan can kill everything on the board.

 Aijec wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
All-caps is a bit unnecessary, but yes, the general consensus is that they are. Torrent of Fire keeps a record of wins/loss ratios.


Personally, I think that Daemons are #1, given that Tzeench Flying Circus got a huge buff in Be'Lakor.

A really interesting set of data, I'm very surprised by many of the results.

Theres just no way Orks can have a lower (slightly), win percentage than SOB... is there?

I bought my wife SoB because she said she wanted to get involved (has only used them like 3 times in 9months) so now I've absorbed them into my fold and I see a nice bit of potential from them, although I've not downloaded the new codex so can't say what changes there are from it. Immodulators are beast though.

Well, in our local tournaments, I play Necrons at the moment. My experience is that my Eldar Serpent spam list is too powerful at the moment. Its too easy to pull the win button. Necrons is more fun to play and I haven't lost in RTTs either.

How does this list work? Like would Necron with Tau allies count towards both As one for each, or just the main force? I wonder how many folk use allies now at tournaments?

Well, I don't use allies per se. You have to pay a tax to get them allied. I played Serpent spam at two occasions. Both times, I faced a conventional Tau army with Riptide, Broadsides and whatnot. Both times, I table the army almost. My Serpents were in range in turn two and the Pathfinders were already dead. Then my Warwalkers entered play. Three rounds later, Tau had almost nothing on the table.
Necrons are more fun to play because of the larger variety, fast moving units, very shooty units, and decent cc unit (DLord, Wraiths). Lots of synergy in this army.

I played my Necrons against Eldar twice. won once, should have won the other time (killed the Serpents, but wasted time trying to kill the Wraithknight that I should have just ignored instead of staying on mission).

Think a lot of folk do seem to play Allies though, and I guess nowadays it is a good way to create unexected combinations for your opponent to have to deal with, IF you can find synergy.

I'd say they are the strongest yes - my two games against them since the new codex have been pretty depressing if I'm honest :p. Certainly not felt particularly 'fair' even by 40k standards! Not to worry though, they are still wimps.

 Aijec wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
All-caps is a bit unnecessary, but yes, the general consensus is that they are. Torrent of Fire keeps a record of wins/loss ratios.


Personally, I think that Daemons are #1, given that Tzeench Flying Circus got a huge buff in Be'Lakor.

A really interesting set of data, I'm very surprised by many of the results.

Theres just no way Orks can have a lower (slightly), win percentage than SOB... is there?

If the graph had included sample sizes for the armies, you might have been less surprised. The results for Orks and Sisters are based on very few games.

They are also not separated by much though....The more important thing to look at is that only 4 armies have over 50%

Eldar also have a winning record against every other army.

That graph is really interesting. I am not surprised Eldar are no1.

That rule where you cant explode their vehicles even if you penetrate them makes them very tough.

Considering that if the game was perfectly balanced the win ratio would be 50/50 for everyone, it seems that 40k isn't that unbalanced.

Shame you can't see the results of allied forces in that chart. In my opinion Taudar is currently the most powerful army.

With joining Farseers to Riptides you remove the most difficult part of playing the Farseer with pure Eldar (keeping him/her alive and useful) and with guide/prescience you remove the need for fragile Pathfinders for Tau. Not to mention the possibility of adding a Wraithknight to tie-up/kill close combat threats.

There is no such thing as a "best army" there are only armies that suit your playstyle and those that don't.

The short answer is yes, Eldar are currently the best army in 40K.

Using Torrent of Fire to tell us that is somewhat flawed, however. Unless I'm totally mistaken, most of the data making up that ToF chart is from various tournaments. Tournament players, for the most part, play what is considered to be "the most consistently good" armies/lists with a sprinkling of "what's the new hotness" sprinkled in. So, since 3 of the newest codecies (Chaos Daemons, Tau, and Eldar) have proven to have some super-tough take-all-comers lists at their disposal, THE BEST players in the land are, a large percentage of the time, playing those armies.

How in the world is any army other than Eldar, Tau, or Chaos Daemons supposed to represent well on ToF if they' aren't being played by a high percentage of good players? I'm sure Orks could be in the top 3 if the guys used to playing top tables/brackets took them to tournaments.

This isn't me saying Eldar aren't one of the best armies out there. There's a reason the best players in the land take them to tournies over the other armies. I'm just pointing out that a bar graph made up of severely skewed data shouldn't sway anyone's opinion.

 Voidwraith wrote:
The short answer is yes, Eldar are currently the best army in 40K.

Using Torrent of Fire to tell us that is somewhat flawed, however. Unless I'm totally mistaken, most of the data making up that ToF chart is from various tournaments. Tournament players, for the most part, play what is considered to be "the most consistently good" armies/lists with a sprinkling of "what's the new hotness" sprinkled in. So, since 3 of the newest codecies (Chaos Daemons, Tau, and Eldar) have proven to have some super-tough take-all-comers lists at their disposal, THE BEST players in the land are, a large percentage of the time, playing those armies.

How in the world is any army other than Eldar, Tau, or Chaos Daemons supposed to represent well on ToF if they' aren't being played by a high percentage of good players? I'm sure Orks could be in the top 3 if the guys used to playing top tables/brackets took them to tournaments.

This isn't me saying Eldar aren't one of the best armies out there. There's a reason the best players in the land take them to tournies over the other armies. I'm just pointing out that a bar graph made up of severely skewed data shouldn't sway anyone's opinion.

This ^. The only way to tell which army is the best is to have an equal showing by the armies and then have them played by their competent generals. Saying Eldar / Tau is the best when the majority of armies represented are Eldar / Tau is a misnomer.

It may be a misnomer but there is a reason that these players are playing eldar the most in some iteration. Eldar have multiple very good points efficient choices in every FOC slot. They have the ability to buff these already very good units. And they can synergize very well with their allies to make even better combos and units.

My order for top tier armies goes like this
Tier 1
Eldar
Daemons
Tau
Tier 2
Edit:necrons (good catch kholzerino I completely forgot my main army for the past 10 months lol)
Space marines
Tyranids
Tier 3
Dark eldar(better as allies than primary)
Chaos marines(better as allies than primary)
Guard(better as primary instead of allies)
Tier 4
Everything else

Edit: now with that being said there are certain armies in lower tiers that are awful matchups for the upper echelon. Such as tyranids usually beat on daemons pretty badly. Necrons are a bad matchup for eldar usually. And dark eldar stomp on tyranids. So while you "can" rank the armies it's still going to be Rock Paper Scissors between a lot of armie draws.

Wow. You don't even place Necrons? Most peoples seem to put them at the top of tier 2.

welshhoppo wrote:
Considering that if the game was perfectly balanced the win ratio would be 50/50 for everyone, it seems that 40k isn't that unbalanced.

You're forgetting the fact that Eldar players face other Eldar players in games where Eldar as a whole comes out 50/50. This drags their average down towards 50% which is further accentuated by Eldar currently being one of the most popular armies, so they tend to face each other a lot.

Kholzerino wrote:
Wow. You don't even place Necrons? Most peoples seem to put them at the top of tier 2.

Edited my original post good catch, I agree necrons are probably top of tier 2. It's funny I forgot them as an army because I've played them as my main army since the end of 2012 taking them to 10 tournaments and 2 GT's this year lol. Just started playing a white scars biker army and eldau recently to break the robotic monotony ;p

Top 3, in no order is:

Those 2 daemon builds
Any eldar/tau alliance that spams the standard kit (wraiththings, derp tau hq support, psy powers on tau)
Nercons that spam wraiths, fliers, tesla

Oh and seriously, tau shouldn't even be able to have any psy power work on them on a 4+ including allied ones. Fluff of course.

I'm interested in running a competitive daemon list. From my understanding I see the two best lists as Fateweaver flying circus with a splash of Be'lakor and backfield horror squads of 11. The other list being mobs of seekers and a large squad (or two) of Khorne dogs with a herald buffed with grimoire and obviously again with fatey. Plus some backfield horrors again with some daemonettes in reserve for punch or last minute objective grabbing and finally 2-3 grinders.

I'm wondering can the screamerstar compete in a competitive environment? I mean I know it has exploitable weaknesses such as grimoire failing (a risk which can be next to removed with the addition of fatey or screamers turboboosting) the obvious benefit is that it seems unkillable to a unprepared opponent (although most decent tournament players will be ready for it), the addition of 3 grinders two slaanesh with torrent going up and a single one with nurgle and phlegm hanging back body guarding horrors adds to the unkillable theme and creates a triangle formation for the screamers to operate in. Thoughts?