Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So everyone is saying that the new smash rule is only 1 attack at double strength, instead of half attacks.

This would make most walker pretty tough for a lot of MCs to dent. They have to hit with their 1 attack, then pen, which would normally be 3+ then 3+ with that one attack.

Maulerfiends have the 5++ helping them out a bit.
Maulerfiends have those magmacutters that give them extra hits against things they wound.
And they are fast, so they can actually chase down MCs that dont want to be in combat with them.


it's an idea isnt it?

 Exergy wrote:
So everyone is saying that the new smash rule is only 1 attack at double strength, instead of half attacks.

This would make most walker pretty tough for a lot of MCs to dent. They have to hit with their 1 attack, then pen, which would normally be 3+ then 3+ with that one attack.

Maulerfiends have the 5++ helping them out a bit.
Maulerfiends have those magmacutters that give them extra hits against things they wound.
And they are fast, so they can actually chase down MCs that dont want to be in combat with them.


it's an idea isnt it?

Pretty much any MC without armorbane and/or native S8-10 is now pretty well boned against melee walkers, and Maulerfiends are going to be able to strike down Bloodthirsters with impunity.

I'd still avoid Carnifexes, Dreadknights, and Wraithknights like the plague though, and have psychic defences ready for the likes of GUOzilla. But most everything else is fair game.

MCs in general took a heavy beating with the (needed) smash nerf.
And walkers got back on their feet, so to speak, with both the vehicle damage charge being more forgiving, and thier main contesters, MCs no longer braking them apart like nothing.

 BoomWolf wrote:
MCs in general took a heavy beating with the (needed) smash nerf.
And walkers got back on their feet, so to speak, with both the vehicle damage charge being more forgiving, and thier main contesters, MCs no longer braking them apart like nothing.

In hurting the effectiveness of Riptides and Psyker spamming Daemon Princes and the like against Vehicles, they also made the likes of Trygons, Bloodthirsters, and Hive Tyrants virtually unusable against them in assault.

But Melee Tyrants, Trygons, and Khorne were already subpar *sigh*.

Well a single smash can still hurt the thing on a 3+ can still knock off 2HP and then still roll for a 6 to explode. god help ya if they rip off on arm or leg.

 Desubot wrote:
Well a single smash can still hurt the thing on a 3+ can still knock off 2HP and then still roll for a 6 to explode. god help ya if they rip off on arm or leg.

That needs to actually hit first, and the AWESOME WS chart is going to make that an unlikely prospect. And the Daemon rule offers them some protection.

They changed the WS chart?

 Desubot wrote:
They changed the WS chart?

No, that's why it's still terrible.

According to 3++'s QnA the one smash attack has armorbane and is of course at ap2 so its still somewhat dangerous to vehicles. Not so likely to explode you with only one hit but it will get a pen more often than not.

Also, think bigger than Maulerfiends.

Most MCs are now utterly boned against Imperial Knights.

None of the S6 MCs can hurt it at all without smash (barring furious charge and praying for glances or getting armourbane somehow), and it can reliably kill most of them (Gods help you if it rolls a six) with little difficulty.

An Imperial Knight could take on a trio of Trygons or Bloodthirsters and the only difficulty it would face would be the amount of time it spent killing them all.

So in general a 3+ to a 3+ for a 4+ for anything of a decent value

Dont get me wrong its a nerf for MC but i think its an overreaction.

In a return fight from a mauler they will hit maybe twice if they charge, so 3 attacks generally wounding on twos.

still takes 2-3 turns down 1 MC (unless its a pewny T5 MC of the chaos variety )

Ether way this is great news for CC Walkers of many types.

Maybe i can run penteants engines finally

JubbJubbz wrote:
According to 3++'s QnA the one smash attack has armorbane and is of course at ap2 so its still somewhat dangerous to vehicles. Not so likely to explode you with only one hit but it will get a pen more often than not.

That's still not really good given how bad the WS chart is. But that's a bit better.

It does however mean that an Imperial priest's fists can now hit as hard as the old eviscerator because his boner for the Emperor is just that strong. Which is endlessly funny to me.

JubbJubbz wrote:
According to 3++'s QnA the one smash attack has armorbane and is of course at ap2 so its still somewhat dangerous to vehicles. Not so likely to explode you with only one hit but it will get a pen more often than not.

It's still one attack though. So it has to hit, it's the same problem the BL artifact has,(50 some points: trade all attacks for 1 attack that has fleshbanse, armorbane, and ID) You have to hit first. So if a 125 point maulerfiend is smacking around doing 4-5 wounds a round and the smashing MC is countering with it's one attack, that misses half the time it isnt going to be a good day for the MC. Now if the MC is a DE Pain Engine, well great, Pain Engines were never competitive and cost trivial amounts. But if it's a 250point nasty it might make some people unhappy.

In all honesty I just don't know why they kept the "replace attacks with X doubling strength" mechanism for Smash attacks.

AP2 was more than enough. Considering most MCs that are actually meant to be in CC (Lets forget about the Riptide for now) already have str 5+ most being of the Str 6 quality, was there really a reason to give them automatic str 10? Now Riptides aren't supposed to be good in melee at all, but on the off chance you DO make that 1 smash attack, you're killing a Daemon Prince if he fails his 5++ You're destroying a Land Raider on a 4+ and now they have Armorbane? Cmon GW. Knock that gak off and stop giving MCs stupid rules they don't need. AP 2 was fine and enough.

GoliothOnline wrote:
In all honesty I just don't know why they kept the "replace attacks with X doubling strength" mechanism for Smash attacks.

AP2 was more than enough. Considering most MCs that are actually meant to be in CC (Lets forget about the Riptide for now) already have str 5+ most being of the Str 6 quality, was there really a reason to give them automatic str 10? Now Riptides aren't supposed to be good in melee at all, but on the off chance you DO make that 1 smash attack, you're killing a Daemon Prince if he fails his 5++ You're destroying a Land Raider on a 4+ and now they have Armorbane? Cmon GW. Knock that gak off and stop giving MCs stupid rules they don't need. AP 2 was fine and enough.

Bloodthirsters, Trygons, Keeper of Secrets, Great Unclean Ones, Hive Tyrants, Haruspexes, Daemon Princes, Knarlocs, Canoptek Stalkers, and Big Squiggoths are all ostensibly melee melee MCs without access to native S10.

Now the GUO, Daemon prince, and KoS can all easily get Iron Arm and don't really care.

The others apparently can go and get fethed if faced with anything as simple as a Dreadnought.

I pay 200+ points for a Trygon which doesn't have the weight of attacks to be good at clearing out large infantry blocks or the invulnerable save to be truly worth it's cost in a monster-fight, it should not be getting it's ass handed to it by a much cheaper Dreadnought.

Try the thirster can get up to 11 attacks IF kitted and lucky enough on the charge and can barely hurt a basic dread and would have to smash an ironclad, thats not good for a 300pt monster, combine this with the no charge on the turn he lands from flying and its not looking good.

from the leaks the best things to beat deamons and nids is dreads and there equivilants, they should just walk though all mc's without much problem.

Heh.. a squad of killa kanz could...

Edit.. probably never catch then and miss excessively.

Skullhammer wrote:
Try the thirster can get up to 11 attacks IF kitted and lucky enough on the charge and can barely hurt a basic dread and would have to smash an ironclad, thats not good for a 300pt monster, combine this with the no charge on the turn he lands from flying and its not looking good.

from the leaks the best things to beat deamons and nids is dreads and there equivilants, they should just walk though all mc's without much problem.

Furioso contemptor dread with blood claws.

Given prescience and some luck as you consolidate from unit to unit, you could probably rip and tear your way through most of a daemon or tyranid army with this one unit, though I'm sure eventually someone would get in a smash hit.

A regular furioso or black company dread could also do more or less the same, but only has AV12 and no fleet.

Skullhammer wrote:
Try the thirster can get up to 11 attacks IF kitted and lucky enough on the charge and can barely hurt a basic dread and would have to smash an ironclad, thats not good for a 300pt monster, combine this with the no charge on the turn he lands from flying and its not looking good.

from the leaks the best things to beat deamons and nids is dreads and there equivilants, they should just walk though all mc's without much problem.

Bet that thirster can't get killed in one shot. And can mulch infantry in a turn. And can stomp all over a wide variety of ICs and other MCs. And has a higher WS/Init than a dreadnought. And double the movement. And can't get immobilized.

Dreadnoughts haven't been able to be fielded seriously all edition. Even if this is an overnerf, there's a part of me that says: enjoy your time on the bottom, MCs.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Dreadnoughts haven't been able to be fielded seriously all edition. Even if this is an overnerf, there's a part of me that says: enjoy your time on the bottom, MCs.

Have you met Carnifexes?

 ductvader wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Dreadnoughts haven't been able to be fielded seriously all edition. Even if this is an overnerf, there's a part of me that says: enjoy your time on the bottom, MCs.

Have you met Carnifexes?

I have.

They killed dreanoughts.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Dreadnoughts haven't been able to be fielded seriously all edition. Even if this is an overnerf, there's a part of me that says: enjoy your time on the bottom, MCs.

Have you met Carnifexes?

I have.

They killed dreanoughts.

And they will keep doing so.

We are far from the bottom.

Yes and they rock with 2 brain leech worms.

 ductvader wrote:
And they will keep doing so.

We are far from the bottom.

Shooting will still be all sorts of viable for killing Dreadnoughts. At least now they won't fold like wet paper towels in melee as well.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
And they will keep doing so.

We are far from the bottom.

Shooting will still be all sorts of viable for killing Dreadnoughts. At least now they won't fold like wet paper towels in melee as well.

Agreed

Very few people used dreadnoughts in 6th because they were crap. Now they can stand toe-to-toe with MCs and therefore MIGHT see play but will probably remain mostly on the shelf. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I've liked my Hellbrutes ever since the datalates came out for Mayhem packs. I've used them to great success ever since. I have a feeling the Hellfist Murder Pack will become a lot stronger with the new Damage table for vehicles

 Kain wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
Try the thirster can get up to 11 attacks IF kitted and lucky enough on the charge and can barely hurt a basic dread and would have to smash an ironclad, thats not good for a 300pt monster, combine this with the no charge on the turn he lands from flying and its not looking good.

from the leaks the best things to beat deamons and nids is dreads and there equivilants, they should just walk though all mc's without much problem.

Furioso contemptor dread with blood claws.

Given prescience and some luck as you consolidate from unit to unit, you could probably rip and tear your way through most of a daemon or tyranid army with this one unit, though I'm sure eventually someone would get in a smash hit.

A regular furioso or black company dread could also do more or less the same, but only has AV12 and no fleet.

How are you consolidating from unit to unit?

Wraithknights, NDK, and carnifax/crushing claw nids will be fine.

Furioso dreads just became viable.

Soul grinders became a really good deal.

 Desubot wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
Try the thirster can get up to 11 attacks IF kitted and lucky enough on the charge and can barely hurt a basic dread and would have to smash an ironclad, thats not good for a 300pt monster, combine this with the no charge on the turn he lands from flying and its not looking good.

from the leaks the best things to beat deamons and nids is dreads and there equivilants, they should just walk though all mc's without much problem.

Furioso contemptor dread with blood claws.

Given prescience and some luck as you consolidate from unit to unit, you could probably rip and tear your way through most of a daemon or tyranid army with this one unit, though I'm sure eventually someone would get in a smash hit.

A regular furioso or black company dread could also do more or less the same, but only has AV12 and no fleet.

How are you consolidating from unit to unit?

Rumor has it that consolidating from combat into another unit is coming to 7th Edition.